parenting; Tabasco; child

[seabeyond]

read don't read, it is long. want to post anyway.


i have a 9 and 6 yr old, boys. at 5, my youngest last year built up his courage and at a convenience store, ate a jalapeno. it was so cool. and the cashiers, customers all sat in hope with him that he could do. we all had a wonderful experience in it. he did so well. was really glad he went over that line of maleness. what the male world contributes. i have observed over the last 4 decades. and i embrace the ritual, lol lol.

my oldest. when he was two, just he and i. dad was out of town. i was talking to dad on the phone. we had picked up dinner from Mexican rest. it was bee u tee ful, the sun shining in and us in giggle. he accidentally got a hot spot in peco. peco and chips, yum.

i was in tears, literally giggling so hard as we worked on staying calm, we could get past this. didn't have to panic. and he did. he was so proud of self, still tells the story.

someone suggested in a previous thread, when i stated the absurdity of saying a drop of Tabasco on tongue was abuse. the reply to me was why should they expect anything less from me. talking my lack of ability to parent. and thought wow, kinda what i am talking. hm. i will take on anyones parenting to mine. and equally find the grace. after 9 years............ the challenge.

my youngest boy doesn't follow rules. my challenge is to give him faith i am on his side. i understand the not wanting others to tell me how to do things. i like my way. doesn't hurt annnnny one. i know this after 4 decades. i can trust me, whether you can or not. not many people can say this. i have faith in me. Jonas does too. i certainly don't want to restrict that

yet clearly there are lines. you chose the repercussion, and don't excuse, whine or anything else about it when you pay the price

also, there are things you can get away with too. let mama show you how cause i do it all over the place. my way. and i am good, i dont get in trouble.

Jonas clearly knows the line, and periodically will put a toe over and watch. i watch him watch as he watches me watch him. not hard; i respect him, and he trusts me

if i chose to say, you cuss, i put a drop of Tabasco on your tongue. and we will sit in smile and look at each other. next move. bah ha ha ha. he likes cussin. he has challenged me, at four. my oldest, ah the angel. remember the story of lite shining into the kitchen, when he was two. he doesnt want to cuss, and doesnt like it. wink. makes it easy.

but jonas................oh

is anyone going to suggest........anyone, that i am not parent after listening to very small moments, in 9 years.

not gonna play the game of people deciding they know better. not........let me say clearly, not a single person knows better what goes on in my home than me.

and the person who is telling me this is abuse. i have kids on playground, i have been watching parenting from all different environments. the people making these statements to me on my parenting,..........i have sat and watched often, being a stay at home with my kids, other children's behavior from parents that have it all. and works. and makes lots and lots of money, and are oh so special,.......never would a parent put Tabasco on their tongue. and i watch these children without a parent around, and lordy, the little bullies, out of control and selfish turds, i say this in love. anyone wants to talk about mine, lets talk about yours, and if yours is perfect, big thumbs up. i will acknowledge. that is what i want in this world. for you, for me. i have it. i am contributing good to the world. i am not sitting in question. i want this for all, cause if all had it, you know how easy life would be. i like easy

not going to do lazy parenting.

[notadmblnd]

1. Although I wouldn't do it to my child I wouldn't call it abuse either

tobasco sauce is not really hot and I try to encourage my kids to try spicy food and on the occasion they have, a big glass of cold milk is sitting right in front of them (there's an enzyme in the milk that take the hotness out of the mouth, beer does this too but you can't give beer to kids).

When my son was about 4 yrs old he took a liking to swearing too. His favorite saving was damn damn damn damn damn. I didn't laugh or giggle because I thought it was cute and I didn't go off the deep end with punishment either after all at that age they are basically emulating someone they've heard and it was genneraly me. The most effective way I found to deal with it, was to ignore it.

[Kanary]

6. Exactly -- ignore it. No reinforcement means it goes away.

But, that doesn't give the parent that charge of venting their anger, fear, etc.

:shrug:

Kanary

[Redleg]

21. Ideally extinction does decrease the behavior but the child may get

reinforcement from peers outside of the home environment where the parent cannot effectively use behavior mod techniques.

[seabeyond]

31. dupe

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. strangely enough our little one loves the stuff

from the time she was able to dip a chip at the local mexican restaurant she has loved hot foods...quirky little thing. Guess this would not work for her.

theProdigal

[Artemis Bunyon]

3. You sound like a wonderful mother.

Cheers to you!

[skygazer]

4. Well, I wouldn't criticize anyone's parenting from a message

board entry.

That said, my opinion on the hot sauce subject is that it is neither child abuse nor effective parenting (or however it was worded). I don't see it as a sensible punishment for anything and provoking a dislike or fear of any type of food seems counter-productive to me. Makes about as much sense to me as shoving a bar of soap in a kid's mouth, something my mom did once or twice. It was unpleasant but didn't stop me from repeating whatever stupid kid thing I had done in the first place.

[radwriter0555]

5. The point of the premise is that inflicting pain as punishment

is a bad thing to do to a child.

This practice of 'hot saucing' comes from a lunatic right wing home schooling former teevee actress fringe freak who likes using pain to instill discipline in her children, and encourages other parents to do so.

Pain is violence. Using violence to discipline a child is child abuse and accomplishes nothing.

Any child who is acting out is out of control because of the parents. It's the parents who need to learn how parent their children, not children who need to be abused because their parents fail to raise them right.

[Kanary]

7. I thought it was RW in origin. Sounds like it. I guessed Focus On Family

Do you have a name for said "actress"?

Thanks...I agree with you totally about pain being violent. I'm currently making a tape of a program about Indians working through the damage done to them at the Indian boarding schools. The whites who ran those programs didn't think they were abusing the kids -- they thought they were "helping" them. Yet, the damage to the Indians has lasted generations.

Non-violence begins at home.

Kanary

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. probably that one from Facts of Life

Lisa Whelchel is the name I think...played Blair...

theProdigal <---embarrassed that I know this

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. what?

Any child who is acting out is out of control because of the parents.

Are you suggesting that any child, in any circumstance, who is out of control is the fault of the parent? Have you ever seen a two year old throw a tantrum because you politely told them 'no' to something they really wanted? Ever try to reason with an 18 month old?

Me thinks thou hast not...or didn't at least consider the situation...

theProdigal

[Artemis Bunyon]

9. Don't get sucked into this argument, PJM.

It's not worth it, and it won't be fruitful.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. but I want to throw a tantrum

:P

[radwriter0555]

18. Yes and yes. I have a kid. I've never raised a hand to her. She learned

from a young age that temper tantrums don't work.

Any behavior is repeated if it is discovered to be an effective tool for achieving the child's desire.

It's up to the parent to be the parent and to retain control over the situation. A child who has tantrums has learned tha tantrums work...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. sorry...i took your meaning to be for all children of all ages

and yes, you can teach a child without resorting to hitting. But learning is a process and not an immediate thing. When a child throws a tantrum, you cannot assume what the parent has done to work on this problem or the speed at which the child will learn. If I see a child throwing a tantrum, I do NOT blame that on the parent because it MAY NOT BE the parent's fault...and your post suggested that bad behavior is the fault of the parent. It is a generalization that portrays parents with difficult situations in a bad light.

My child is the dream child...while very independent and willful, she is also fairly reasonable. You can talk to her...but the key is that she has to be willing and ready to listen...and in fact ABLE to listen. Two year olds haven't formed a lot of the control functions that adults have (well, some adults :-) ) and literally may not be able to listen. Just because she might pitch a small fit doesn't mean that I am at fault...and neither is the person in the ailse-over in the grocery store with the three year old screaming because he/she cannot have another box of Fruity Pebbles.

theProdigal

[Ilsa]

11. Thank you!

And some people have more sensitive tasters than others. You don't know how much pain you can be inflicting.

There are other ways to actively parent and discipline besides inflicting pain.

[DrWeird]

12. I thought it was about inflicting tobasco.

Tobasco sauce doesn't cause pain, it causes mild discomfort and, frankly, doesn't taste very good. Well, maybe it causes pain if you're some kind of culinary albino whose idea of spicyness means a lot of salt. And those people are the reason that in the US if you pick up a bottle of "hot sauce" it's usually about as hot as a York peppermint patty, so I say, frankly, fuck 'em.

Now, if it weren't Tobasco, but something along the lines of Dave's Insanity Sauce, then yes, that could qualify as child abuse.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

13. mmmmmm Dave's....

now i have THAT to think about until dinner...

theProdigal

[K-W]

41. Why do people always try to downplay what capsaicin does

in these threads.

"Its just a bad taste."
"Its just a little uncomfortable"
"Heck they should like it"

The chemical in hot sauce is the same chemical in pepper sprays. It tricks nerves into sending the signals they would send in the case of burning.

Depending on the concentration in the hot sauce, it could be extremely powerful. But even with a rather mild hot sauce, in standard tobasco sauce, most people will feel burning pain that lingers in thier mouth throat and sometimes sinuses. Especially if they are children with very little exposure to the flavor (obviously a child who eats hot dishes will have very little negative reaction, but then it is no good as a punishment anyway.)

The issue here is not that hot sauce doesnt cause pain. It does, the issue here is whether it is enough pain to warrant being called abuse.

The issue is, is all use of pain on children wrong, or just use of over a certain threshold, and if so what is that threshold. And then what falls above and below that threshold.

[K-W]

47. Peppers in the news

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/strange/092304_ap_sn_pepper.html

Yep, just a harmless food, nothing to see here.

[foo_bar]

104. you don't want pickle juice in your eyes either

[foo_bar]

103. 1 bottle of pure capsaicin = 1000 bottles of Tabasco (in SHU)

Pure capsaicin is marketed as a medicine (Zostrix) to treat pain of all things:
http://www.lowback-pain.com/painmeds.capsaicin.htm

[Swamp Rat]

54. You can get all kinds here like, "Ass on Fire" etc. in the French Quarter.

They have a lot of creative and X-Rated labels.

... but a true connoisseur knows about Dave's Insanity Sauce:

"So you like hot sauce huh? Think you've tasted the hottest of the hot and there's nothing left to make you sweat? Try again. Welcome to Sweat 'N Spice, your source for hot sauces that will make you jump up and shout "Well Smack My Ass and Call Me Sally!". Hot Sauce has come a long way from the Original Tabasco sauce, which has only 2,500 scoville units. The new "hot" leader is Blair's 6am a hot sauce extract that hits 16 million scoville units, hot enough to be deemed pure capsaicin!"

http://www.sweatnspice.com/


edit to add the Dave's website: http://www.davesgourmet.com/company.html

[Dorian Gray]

68. I've bought all sorts of hot sauces in NO

And one of them was actually called, "Smack my ass and Call Me Sally!" sauce! Loved it!

I'm a hot sauce fan. I don't have kids. I probably wouldn't do this. I have friends who wash their kids mouths out with soap, and I probably wouldn't do that, either!

[Swamp Rat]

98. I drank a large bottle of Tobasco when I was a baby.

I chugged most of the bottle before I reacted to it. After I was given lots cold of milk I was fine... and fell in love with cayenne pepper. Something must have happened because when I walked to school (6-9 years old), I would always pass by cayenne pepper bushes and pick them and eat them along the way. Other kids ate candy, but I ate ass-burnin' red peppers. Of course, we ALL ate really spicy crawfish.

[gollygee]

62. Foods taste stronger to children than adults

So the fact that it wouldn't hurt you doesn't mean it wouldn't hurt a child.

from: http://kidshealth.org/kid/talk/qa/taste_buds.html

The average person has about 10,000 taste buds and they're replaced every 2 weeks or so. But as a person ages, some of those taste cells don't get replaced. An older person may only have 5,000 working taste buds. That's why certain foods may taste stronger to you than they do to adults. Smoking also can reduce the number of taste buds a person has.

[merh]

16. Hot saucing is not always abuse. I hate generalizations.

My mother was not a member of the lunatic right wing home schooling group and she used the technique. There were 9 of us and both of my parents had to work to support the family. Pepper sauce or hot sauce was a last resort for kids (like me) that were smart mouthed, tempermental and stubborn. They used discipline in reering us, but they also used love. They never withheld their love and we knew the discipline was part of their love.

My parents were loving parents and did not abuse us.

Stop with the damned generalizations, any good child services counselor and/or social worker KNOWS that each case must be viewed on an individual basis and generalizations are not wise.

Unless you live in someone shoes, you should not even try to judge their actions or know why they chose to take the actions.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

27. Bravo!

Well said. I absolutely agree with you. The parenting style of your parents sounds very similar to the parenting style of my parents, although my parents never tried the hot sauce thing.

All children are different too. Discipline techniques that work for some kids, do not work for others.

[K-W]

42. Is punching always abuse?

This isnt about love. At one time parents always used corperal punishment. Abuse was once standard parenting.

There is nothing wrong with someone who follows thier cultural norms and those just happen to include using pain.

The issue is whether or not it is actually ethical. You cant blame people for doing what they were taught to do with thier children.

[merh]

43. I resent generalizations just as much as I resent "educated"

people that lack the actual experience to give credence to their judgmental stance.

The subject is not "punching" it is hot sauce and having been "sauced", I can say that it is NOT ABUSIVE. I am entitled to my views of the subject as I was subjected to the technique. As you were not, you cannot speak to the subject, you can only give your "educated" response which lacks the essential element all experts in the field of child behavior will tell you, each case is unique and generalized judgments have no merit and are more harmful than good.

My parents were not abusive, they were loving and very nuturing. One of the hardest things a loving parent can do is discipline a child. One day you might figure this out for yourself.

[K-W]

46. Dont you dare tell me what I am allowed to speak about.

I hate to break it to you, but having experience with one incidence of something doesnt make you particularly well qualified to speak as an expert on something. You can only say that in you ONE instance, you dont consider it abuse.

Thank you for sharing your experience, you dont get to claim to be an ultimate authority on the issue because of it.

The issue here is whether the use pain as a punishment for children is never appropriate, and if it is sometimes appropriate, how do we determine what is and isnt appropriate.

Just because using tobbacco sauce doesnt violate our cultural norms as much as taking a swing at the kid doesnt make the pain any less real.

I really dont see why you are being defensive about this, this isnt an indictment of you or your parents. This is about what our cultural norms should be, not what they were.

[merh]

69. It is the parents that decide what is appropriate -

parenting is a very personal thing. Maybe one day you will learn that.

BTW - I mentioned I was a smart mouthed, opinionated, stubburn, tempermental child, the "saucing" occurred more than once. The torment I put my parents through was excrutiating. How do you control a child that will not be controlled? HOT SAUCE DID NOT CAUSE ME PAIN - so pllllllllllluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuubbbbbbbbbbbb!
DO NOT CALL ME A LIAR.

It is you that is lying to yourself if you think you are so great and wise that you can judge all with only your education and limited experiences.

[phylny]

57. Of course, the word "discipline" doesn't mean to threaten,

punish, harass, bully or otherwise intimidate. The root word is from "disciple," and the primary meaning is to teach or guide. I'm sure your parents were great people. I just think there are much better ways to truly discipline, and thos methods don't have to involve the use of any type of physical force.

I said it in the last thread about this topic, and I'll repeat it here - I managed to raise three girls who are teens now. I disciplined them - taught them, guided them. One was VERY willful, very difficult, tantrums, hitting her sisters and pushing other people, when she was 2-3 years old - we went to counseling to help her control her behavior and emotions because we wanted to do it right. Even with her, we never had to resort to this type of punishment. It took about 3 months of hard work and collaboration with her preschool program and church community, but we effectively changed her behavior using positive reinforcement.

All three of our girls are now amongst the most polite, well-behaved, fun children I know, and others in the community have told us so as well. We did it without hurting them, humiliating them, or putting anything in their mouths. It's possible, and preferable, to discipline a child without intimidating them, hitting them, putting soap or hot sauce in their mouths. I sure wouldn't like it, and I wouldn't do it to my dog, so why would I do it to the people I love most in the world?

As many of you know, there are 4 major methods in operant conditioning. Positive reinforcement is adding something to increase the response, negative reinforcement is taking something away in order to increase a response. To decrease behavior, you can remove or add a stimulus as well. Punishment refers to adding something aversive in order to decrease a behavior - this is what paddling, hitting, and "hot saucing" is all about. For "hot saucing" to be effective in behavior modification, and since it's not a reward for behavior, it's by definition aversive - that means it's unpleasant. So, anyone who's saying that it's not bad is either misinformed or is spinning his or her wheels, behaviorally speaking. Either it's unpleasant and as such is an aversive (something to be avoided) in which case it's punishment in operant conditioning, or it's not unpleasant - and therefore is ineffective as an aversive to be used in punishment. So, if it's NOT unpleasant, then how exactly will it change behavior?

By the very definitions of operant conditioning, it won't work unless it's unpleasant, or it's an aversive.

[merh]

65. Hooray for you - you get mother of the year

but you were lucky - how did you discipline without resorting to using methods that "punish, harass, bully or otherwise intimidate".

[gollygee]

66. It isn't luck

I don't use methods that punish, harasss, bully or otherwise intimidate either. And it is working. I've seen the results of using violence in an attempt to teach children. It appears to me that it teachers children that they can control others by using violence. My daughter hasn't learned that lesson because I don't threaten or use violence with her. Ever.

[merh]

70. I repeat

what methods of discipline are used that do not include, in some way, "punishing, harasssing, bullying or otherwise intimidating"? Please for all the perfect parents out there that can say that, share those techniques with the rest of us.

[gollygee]

73. Try looking here

http://www.positiveparenting.com/

specifically, look at this list: http://www.positiveparenting.com/resources/feature_article_002.html

[merh]

74. Not what a web site tells you to think

what you use. Share your methods.

[gollygee]

76. That is what I do

And it works.

I've read a few books that they recommend at that site - I hadn't seen the site before but I did a google search for the books I've found that best describe how I parent, and that site showed up on the list.

You don't research important choices? I research before I buy a car, I research how to paint a room, and since raising my child is the most important thing I'll ever do, you'd better believe I've researched that as well. Researching doesn't mean finding someone else to think for you, it means getting educated to help you make the best choice you can.

[seabeyond]

77. but ....what if the parent isnt you.

my family is loud. my family is passionate. my family love, i mean the love is as loud and passionate as the anger. actually the anger is love too. that is who we all are

my husband. they are quiet, and never say truth and express feeling and lie. none of the 5 siblings talk to each other. they are rich, they are successfull and none of them have a bond.

my family, we are in each others lives. my brothers children, more like sibling than cousins.

what if i get mad. am i a throw away. cant i find the good in me, without being your sense of perfection.

[gollygee]

78. Anger is love. War is peace.

I'd call our family loud and passionate, but not generally angry. We allow our selves to get angry but not to hurt each other.

[seabeyond]

81. and this is what i have said in earlier post

we dont go over the line of having that want to hurt the other. that allows us to not feel guilt, and it is also a gift to the other. but we do allow anger. and we allow sadness, which is the tough one for me. i want to stop all sadness, and sometimes i am reminded that is allowed too. jonas did two days ago. i had to just allow him to be sad, and talk it out, and then a bowl of ice cream. anger is a nothing for me and jonas. doesnt bother us, we embrace, lol. it is hard for father and edmund.

[gollygee]

86. I should probably clairfy (m)

the original post I saw about this issue - I responded by saying that it is pretty minor abuse but that I think it is abusive, and that I don't think punishment is effective. I do see the difference between putting a bit of tabasco on a child's mouth and beating a child. It is obviously milder than that. But abuse doesn't just mean beating a child, it means misuse of power, and I do think that causing a child to feel pain and discomfort when they do something wrong because we are bigger and stronger is a misuse of our power. I also think it is less effective than finding out what caused the misbehavior and working on a solution for that.

[seabeyond]

89. and i agree totally to what you are saying

exactly spot on. but my issue, is we didnt discuss like your post. we pointed the finger we blamed we pounded the table in self righteousness.

this is what i want to bring our children to, it is also what us adults can use a dose in reality.

dont we feel when we take anothers power. yes we do. we know. ergo we know when we do wrong.

i am saying there are so many many different levels. and i believe we have to keep that alive too. my littlest wanted something from me, and went into cute act of begging. not in serious, total playacting, yet he went down on knees and started kissing foot.

i reacted so strongly, a huge eeeeew. and it wasnt at all cause of germs or dirt on feet, it was all about the submissive kissing the feet feel.

i react so and say dont you ever evah do that again. i explained that action is the total giving away his power in submissiveness and i dont want to evah see him do that. then we had a big ole long converation about power with both boys.

this is the work in parenting. and this is what i say, i dont do the lazy parenting. we learned a lot in just that moment/experience. we are beyond the specific action.

[merh]

79. What is it you do?

When situations arise, you run to a book or website?

What methods do you use? How difficult is that to answer?

[gollygee]

80. Do you not want to read the website?

It depends on the specific situation. The only thing that is consistant is that I don't punish.

[gollygee]

82. Oh and before you jump on the word "consistant"

I do consitantly take care of problems as they arise, I just treat each situation individually. Different things cause problems, and I try to work on the cause of the misbehavior rather than the misbehavior itself.

[seabeyond]

85. to work on the cause of the misbehavior

this is a great gift that helps thru out in problem solving. not all people have it. would certainly be easier if all had it, but they dont. unfortunately many have not been given the tools or knowledge or site of this concept. so i purpose, instead of going after the specific of hot sauce on tongue. we go to making people aware of this.

[merh]

84. And I am asking YOU for specifics

what methods do you use? Do you run to the website or your book every time a situation arises? What method of monitoring or disciplining or correcting your children do you use?

[gollygee]

88. You and I are speaking different languages

It isn't like because I don't do that, I do this other punishment instead. I don't do ANY punishment. What I do is specific for any case. I don't "correct" her - that is punishment. The word "discipline" is related to "disciple" - it means to teach, not to punish.

Some of the specific ways to teach children without punishment are listed on that web site. I don't go to the web site - I haven't even been to that website before today. But it will give you an idea of how parents can teach their children without punishment, if you want to bother looking. I must assume the reason you refuse to look is because you are more interested in arguing than in learning.

[merh]

90. No, you are not understanding a simple question

What method do you use to correct your child when she does something wrong?

If you tell me your child does nothing wrong, then I call BS on your post and your practices.

Don't continue to tell me to go to a website to read, tell me what you do when your child misbehaves, refuses to share, refuses to do what you ask, or does other things that demonstrate that your child thinks for herself?

[Dorian Gray]

116. You are lucky

You must have a great child. I don't have kids yet, but most of my friends do. They all have different ways of approaching their children when it comes to discipline, but I do not know one of them who has never raised their voices or given them a time out as a form of punishment.

Kids can be brats. Pretty often, too! I love them, and I can't wait to have them! But, they can be really really bratty! To not reprimand them when they are throwing a temper tantrum would be terrible to me.

Of course, I am not talking about physical punishments, either. But, a little yelling and a few time outs can teach your child boundaries. Of course, it's important to keep positive reinforcement in there!

I do think it's a great question, though! What would you do if your three year old had a temper tantrum in a public place. Without any punishment, how would you handle that? I want to know effective techniques because I'm hoping to have a family soon! :)

[notadmblnd]

94. well, what I have done with my children...

and I don't call it a time out. They are sent to sit in the living room, they are not allowed to read, write, watch tv, play with toys or talk to anyone. I instruct them to think about their behavior and why it is wrong. When they have come up with their answer, they are to come and explain it to me, if I deem they have a good understanding of why it was wrong to engage in inappropriate behavour then they are allowed to resume normal activity. I have found that this works very well with the 7-10 yr olds. They're ages 11 and 13 now and they still hate sitting in the livingroom and I have'nt had to send them there in a long time.

[merh]

99. Just wondering, do you consider this punishment?

Is the deprivation of sensory stimulus punishment? Is it abuse/torture?


***The point is, it depends on each incident and parenting is very individual. It is individual for the parent and the child. Generalizations do not work! Hot sauce is not always abuse, spanking is not abuse, sensory deprivation is not an abuse. ***

[notadmblnd]

107. No, I call it... reflection.. they are sent there to think

they are not being deprived of any sensory stimulation. They are reflecting on their behaviour. At age 7-10 they're pretty much aware of what is acceptable behaviour in the house hold and have a decent awareness of what is right and what is wrong.

On edit: punishment in our home has always meant hugs and kisses. They've actually come to me and said, mom I need some punishment.

[merh]

108. And prisoners are sent to administratrive segregation to think

and reflect and as punishment. Some folks would say that is emotional harmful. It is all a matter of degree, and just as it would be wrong of me or anyone else to think some of your methods equal sensory deprivation or emotional abuse (withholding your love), so too is it wrong for you to think that other parenting techniques like spanking (not beating) and saucing (not holding a child down and pouring hot sauce in their mouth) are wrong. Generalizations are wrong.

[notadmblnd]

110. you need to read post #1

I was not condeming anyone for their parenting methods, and I generalized nothing. I was mearly stating what has worked for me.

perhaps you have just misunderstood, perhaps you're just looking for an arguement? If the later is the case... I'm not biting.

[merh]

113. Perhaps you need to refer to your post that responded to my

inquiry to another and not to the original post. If you don't want to have me ask questions regarding issues raised by your post, then don't reply to my posts. I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to get beyond the holier than thou generalizations of some that have opined that their parenting is better than others. With everything in life, parenting is an individual matter and not every use of discipline is abuse.

[phylny]

100. I'll assume your "mother of the year" comment

wasn't meant to be snarky :) Ya.

Luck had nothing to do with it. It's all technique and education, and understanding who's the parent and who's the child - and knowing that a child who has learned self-control is a happier child than one that has five melt-downs a day.

How'd I do it? By using the principles of operant conditioning and behavior modification. I'm well versed in behavior modification now with my job, because it's such a large part of what I do, but even back then when my kids were little, before I continued my education, I knew how to parent and I understood the basics of behavior modification.

As parents, my husband and I reward(ed) good behavior, and we use(d) positive reinforcement for good behavior, negative (NOT PUNISHMENT, which is different!) reinforcement (taking away privileges, taking away our attention) and most of all, we are CONSISTENT CONSISTENT CONSISTENT. This was especially important for our middle child, who was a very "I see only in black/white" sorta kid at the time.

Example of behavior modification technique:

Little Sally comes with you to the grocery store. It's past her nap time and she's at the end of her rope, but you have to get stuff for dinner. Sally sees a candy bar at the checkout and she just has to have it. She asks, you say no, she asks louder, you say no, she screams, you say no, she screams louder, and you give her the candy bar. The lesson she's learned?

"If I scream loud enough, I'll get what I want. Mom always gives in."

You as a parent have to be disciplined enough and strong enough to say no and to deal with the ensuing behavior. Sure, she'll embarrass you, but the other shoppers will get over it. Your child and teaching her how to control her behavior are long-term, more important goals.

So, you decide to get smart next time. Same scenario, same screaming, you say no, she screams and cries blah blah blah and it's a huge, ugly scene. You continue to say no. Now a full blown tantrum, you hold your ground. Eventually, this time or the next, or maybe the next, Sally learns that the temper tantrum thing ain't working like it used to. The tantrums WILL get worse, but this is expected and normal - so much so that the term for THAT behavior is an extinction burst.

But if you hold on and stand your ground, eventually the behavior will cease. So, when the screaming stops (even a child with severe developmental difficulties can be taught with operant conditioning) you reward that quiet behavior. Soon the undesired behavior will be extinct.

Continuing our scenario, next time I go to the store, I might say, "Sally, you are doing such a good job helping me and being quiet while we shop. I'm glad you're being a big girl and you're not crying anymore. Let's pick out a candy bar and you can have it after lunch." Delayed gratification and positive reinforcement all in one fell swoop.

I recently had a client, 22 months old, second time I worked with her, and it took her all of about 5 minutes to figure out that tantrums and hissy fits wouldn't work with me and wouldn't get her what she wanted. She realized that if she did what I wanted, our therapy sessions would be a crap load more fun and she would be rewarded. Her father was amazed at how quickly her behavior changed for the better. It takes practice, some knowledge, but most of all it takes being focused and understanding how behavior works.

Parents who don't have any knowledge about how to use this technique can often find help in the community. I've seen parenting classes in my local paper, or at local preschools, or churches. There are behavior specialists and if you have a big problem on your hand, you can pay for their services, or even see if medical insurance will pay, if you have it. If that fails, there's the public library or even the Internet where you can get information on parenting skills.

[merh]

109. Negative reinforcement is punishment.

Negative reinforcement is punishment and discipline. Withholding attention and affection as a form of punishment can be more harmful than a spanking or a raised voice. It all is a matter of degree and generalizations are wrong.

[phylny]

112. I'm sorry, but that's not correct according to the definitions of

operant conditioning. I gave you some information, lots of it and you didn't respond to any of it. It's possible that you're not asking your questions to learn, so I'll not respond further. You wanted to know specifically how I disciplined my children in my "mother of the year" fashion, and I told you.

I said nothing about withholding affection, I said we'd withhold our attention - lots of troublesome behavior by children is to get parents' attention, or the teachers, and when we give attention, that's reinforcing the behavior that we don't like.

I don't know where you get your information that using negative reinforcement is more harmful than spanking. However, if you can cite that research, I'd be interested in reading it.

[GiovanniC]

17. My Mom Used to "Hot Sauce" Me

For lying, talking back, or swearing.

I didn't swear too much (I make up for that now, though), but I lied a little and I'm a HUGE smart-ass, which means I violated the "talking back" clause a lot.

I hated hot sauce (and still) do. However, I never did consider it "abuse", nor do I now. I knew people who were abused. Physically. Mentally. Sexually. I witnessed some of that abuse, and the aftermath.

The hot sauce does not even come close to comparing.

EDITED TO ADD: My mom is a solid Democrat, and has never been a member of the lunatic right-wing.

[sffreeways]

51. Agree

if that's the best you can think of when it comes to guiding a child in the best direction you're just not up to the task.

In my opinion, it's not necessary to use these weird negative aggressive tactics with a child.

The best behaved most stable obviously happy intellectually curious children that have grown into healthy adults I know are the ones who's parents treated them with respect. It's not respectful to burn your kids mouth. If you wouldn't like it neither will your child. All it teaches them is might makes right and that's a bad lesson.

Children are still the one group of people in this country that it's perfectly okay to do things to that if you did them to another adult you'd be arrested.

Definitions of Child Abuse on the Web:

Includes physical injury, sexual maltreatment, emotional maltreatment, deprivation of necessities, or combinations for a child by an individual responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances indicating that the child's welfare is harmed or threatened. The term encompasses both acts and omissions on the part of a responsible person.

www.defenselink.mil/fapmip/glossary.html

– A condition in which children are victims of or at risk of neglect, abandonment, physical or emotional mistreatment to the extent that their safety is compromised.
www2.state.ga.us/departments/dhr/dfcs/fultoncty/gloss2.html

Any form of cruelty to a child's physical, moral or mental well-being.
www.montgomerycountymd.gov/mc/judicial/circuit/glossary/glossary.html

the non-accidental act of causing injuries to a child either by the parent or guardian, or allowed by the parent or guardian.
www.co.sanmateo.ca.us/smc/department/home/0,,14095130_19813918_19818456,00.html

The emotional, psychological, physical, sexual or social abuse of a child including neglect. •Residence
elo.legalaid.qld.gov.au/asp/glossary/glossary.asp

Physical, sexual, or emotional violation of a child's health and well-being.
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072484918/student_view0/glossary.html

(1-800-4-A-CHILD) - to report suspicion of child abuse
www.altai.fio.ru/projects/group3/potok37/site/site1/education_glossary.htm

Defined by state statutes. Usually occurs when a parent purposefully harms a child.
www.legalsouth.com/legalterms_a_e.html

the physical or emotional or sexual mistreatment of children
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

The fact is that the negative consequences of corporal punishment (physical disipline)outweigh its seemingly positive short term consequences. The use of corporal punishment is associated with significant increases in physical abuse, long term antisocial behaviour, and later as an adult the abuse of a partner or child, as well as significant decreases in beneficial outcomes including moral internalisation, conscience, and empathy.

No physical punishment of children can be said to be completely "safe".

Any Doctor or pedatrician with any respectability understands that inflicting physical pain, and that is what putting a substance that burns in their mouth is, results in long term negative effects on children.

In the past people believed that whipping children was good for them but of course studies in human behavior have unquestionably determined that this is abuse and does not have the desired effect of creating a well balanced emotionaly heathy adult. It has the opposite effect.

I don't understand people that want their children to be afriad of them in the first place and the threat that you would do such a thing as "hotsaucing" your child is going to cause them to be afraid of you.


I never hit or humiliated my son ever and I'm glad for it. And you will be too.

The world would be a far better place of adults treated children with the respect that the little gifts they are deserve. Breaks my heart to read crap like this. I hope someday we evolve beyond these barbaric practices. No wonder we live in a country where somebody like George Bush can be president.

And whoever said that this practice is some rightwing wackos idea of good parenting is right. She's a failed actress and a loon.

Negative disipline creates social problems for the rest of us. Your kid that has been humiliated and mistreated then goes out into the world and takes it out on the rest of us. There is plenty of evidence that this is true and the cost of child abuse is astronomical, beyond calculation. Crime, mental health, loss of productivity, medical, insurance, education, what a mess the maltreatment of children causes for us all.

Just as it's changed over the years and we have learned new techniques for disiplining our children so shall it continue to change. The human race evolves by finding other solutions to problems besides aggression which is base.

There is a wealth of information out there on parenting and solutions to a childs bad behavior that doesn't include such an idiotic practice.

[LeighAnn]

55. Actually it's an ancient technique

They way I've always understood it, this is a standard age-old discipline technique used in many parts of the world.

My step-nephew "acts up" so much in school that my sister-in-law thinks they need to "up" his medication (again). My brother maintains that if the principal would paddle his butt, he probably would behave better. Nobody's allowed to spank this kid, though, so we'll never know. Instead he stands in a long line every day to get his meds with all the other "disruptors".

[TexasSissy]

15. I started reading, but the typing, sheesh, hard to follow without

capitalization and punctuation.

[Bridget Burke]

22. I agree.

The Shift Key is your friend! Learn it, use it!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. and while my grammar may suck from time to time

I had a hard time reading this...and I taught High School history for a while and that writing was bad...

theProdigal

[AgadorSparticus]

20. i have never heard of this before. i don't think that this is child abuse

unless done to an extreme. and on that logic, even something benign as drinking water can be abusive. but i can't imagine that it would work. in my family, hot sauce is on the table like ketchup. it is just another condiment.

i think effective child rearing truly depends on the child. each learns in his way. and it is the responsibility of the parent/guardian to know their kids, how they think, what they respond to, their threshold, and tolerance to a variety of stimuli.

i don't think that negative stimulus alone is effective. but then again, i don't assume parents completely forgo positive affirmations just because they use a negative stimulus. it is not always black/white either/or.

and that story you recalled about your son jonah putting his toe on the other side of the line while you are watching him watching you---i can completely understand. that is their job. to make sure you are a repetitive, consistent, source of authority. making sure you are not slacking on job, momma. ;)

i've noticed on the other thread that methods/ages/circumstances are all thrown into a single pot. for the most part, i don't think any ONE method works for any one child through the ages. it is a dynamic process. as they grow and develop, so should the methods used by parents. you don't treat a teenager the same way you would a child in his/her terrible two's.

[JNelson6563]

24. lounge fodder

Try not allowing swearing in your house, BY ANYONE, it's more trouble than putting tabasco on your son's mouth but worth it.

Teach by example. And post this vanity, defensive nonsense in the lounge willya?

Julie

[Pithlet]

39. Yes

Nothing else to say as I said it all in the thread that started this.

[Kanary]

25. Consider the same problem with adults..... would you do this to adult?

It's often a good idea to forget, for a moment, the person in question is a child, and think how you'd deal with it if it were an adult.

I know that I had a neighbor who kept using the "N" word (which I find a LOT more offensive than a swear word!) I certainly couldn't have put something in her mouth, so I just told her that I realized I couldn't change her behavior, but it was terribly offensive to me, and to not use the word in my presence. It worked, and I never heard it from her again. POssibly made her think about what she was doing, but in any case, it dealt with the problem.

We need to give our children guidance, but in the final analysis, we have no control over ANYONE.

Just something to consider.

Kanary

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

29. If the child is very young

reasoning with them probably won't work. It depends on how developed the child is.

[Kanary]

34. With a younger child, even more important to NOT do the physical

punishments. I'm surprised this is so hard to get through.

*Especially* with a younger child, ignoring it and not giving the reinforcements work.

The *only* reason to resort to the painful solutions is to let the parent vent their own anger.

:mad:

Kanary

[merh]

45. That is hogwash!

The *only* reason to resort to the painful solutions is to let the parent vent their own anger.

For one thing, hot sauce is not painful, it causes discomfort. I know, my parents had to resort to this with me. I also know that I am very sensitive to hot sauce and spicy foods and have been that way all of my life. They didn't just put it on the tongue and wait for it to wear off, they provided the milk to help combat the taste and discomfort.

Parents that discipline are not always inflicting pain out of anger or in an effort to vent their anger. I am sorry that is your experience, but that is not every parent's motivation and as I have said in other posts, generalizations such as yours are offensive and wrong.

[Kanary]

48. Same with your generalizations.

Physical punishment is the same as war........ it means you've not worked at finding a peaceful solution.

All parents can slip at times, and it would be weird if they didn't. but....... this sort of thing is NOT a slip.... it's premeditated, and then rationalization.

Intentionally inflicting pain is cruel, and if that is offensive, then .......... tell it to the Iraqis.

Yeah, telling me I'm offensive was offensive.

Kanary

[merh]

72. You are offensive - your very limited interpretation of events

based upon your very bad experiences in life and your constant judging of others that do not find you the wise and caring victim or your positions the only truths, is offensive and old.

Not all discipline or punishment is abuse. That is a fact. If all you knew was abuse, then my heart goes out to you, but that does not mean that I agree with your black and white interpretations of a very complex issue that will be debated forever.

[K-W]

49. Stop lying about hot sauce it IS painful. You cant argue that.

It contains the chemical capsaicin which when exposed to mucous membranes causes a painful burning. In high doses we call it pepper spray, in sometimes not that much lower doeses we call it hot sauce.

Harmless peppers in the news: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/strange/092304_ap_sn_pepper.html

[merh]

67. Stop talking about what you do not know!

Books are wonderful things, but experiences bring wisdom. From your posts I would gather that missed alot in your up bringing, as it appears that you have no facilities for compassion and understanding. If you are Christian, I remind you of a simple phrase "judge not lest ye be judged".

[phylny]

101. Speaking of generalizations,

you appear to believe that the only way to discipline a child is by using punishment. I've mentioned here, and elsewhere, that there are many other ways. It's been scientifically proven that punishment is not an effective tool for behavior modification.

And I wouldn't hot sauce or paddle my dog, let alone my kids.

[Jack_DeLeon]

26. I was never hotsauced...

but as a child I started to love hot foods, jalepenos and whatever, and I still do.

This punishment is ineffective against Mexicans. :P

[SemiCharmedQuark]

28. If you don't have kids, get off this thread

Men shouldn't get on a thread telling women that abortions are wrong and people who don't have kids should not condemn other people for how they raise their kids.
I can't believe this thread. My mom used chile on me when I was a biting toddler and for some of you to sit there and say that MY mother was abusive is beyond belief. My mom sat up with me to write my reports, stayed home with me when I was sick (she even brought me books to keep me company). She read to me every night. She set a great example, never swore, never drank, never smoked. She always put my needs first. She never raised a hand to me. AND she raised me all by herself. I thank GOD that I had a mother like her. How dare you sit there and call her abusive and a "right wing" lunatic. ESPECIALLY if you don't have kids. I don't give a damn if you've studied psychology for 15 years, if you don't have kids, you don't know a damn thing.

On Edit: Oh yeah, and she's a lifelong dem too.

[seabeyond]

30. hey, lol lol lol wow to your post, but kinda what i am feeling

i never felt the belt was beating either. was the time. again i dont do to my kids, but i certainly dont make my mom less. all you said about your mom, mine too. my mom also yelled, oh she yelled and had a sailor mouth sometimes too. but boy did she love me. and truly, she was the person i always trusted with everything that she would be on my side, rootin for me. never never did she purposely hurt me, always it was the best for me. and she certainly wasnt perfect, but i wouldnt want a perfect mom over her, she was perfect for me.

[Iris]

37. How about if you don't have a parent get off this thread.

A lot of parents are still abusive even if they do nice things.

I've noticed most people who HAVE kids still don't know a damn thing.

So get off your high horse. Any idiot can BREED.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

38. The point is, you can't paint everyone with one stroke

People are on here saying "hot sauce = bad parenting". I'm saying, in my case it didn't A few people have said that it didn't in their case. Hence wouldn't it be the people who are using such broad generalizations that are on a "high horse". I didn't say hot sauce is bad parenting, I didn't say it was good parenting. I don't know. I just know that in my case it wasn't bad parenting. And I know another thing that: you or anyone else is far far less qualified to say my mom was abusive than I am. My father WAS abusive even if he tried to bring me small toys etc. to make up for it.

Im sick of people who don't have kids thinking they know something about other people's kids. Example. You can read every book known to man on say...soccer. You can become an expert on the rules. However if you haven't played a day in your life are you going to be a good player? No. Conversely if you decide to play and you ignore the rules/don't bother learning them will you be a good player? No. You need to do both, invest in learning the rules and bend them to shape your particular situation. Such is parenting. There are bad parents who never bothered to educate themselves on parenting, but there are people who have educated themselves who just CAN'T be in the position to tell others what to do because they have not been in that position.

"A lot of parents are abusive even if they do nice things" Finally, what is this to mean? Are you suggesting that I was abused and did not know it? Because again, isn't it you who are on a high horse thinking that in the 1 msg that you know me from a msg board you can completely divulge my background? I apologize for my previous post but I was angry when I wrote it. Burning anger. My mom certainly wasn't abusive. Again in my post I did not say "hot sauce is right" or "hot sauce is wrong" I merely pointed out that in my case it did not equal abuse. I guess the point would be "hot sauce does NOT equal abuse" unequivically.

[Iris]

95. You don't have to be a parent to know a little something about people

and human nature.

And last time I checked, kids are still considered human beings.

So why don't you get off your high horse. A lot of people think about this stuff BEFORE they BREED.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

96. Are you a parent?

Because no matter how much one prepares before being a parent, actually being a parent is much different.

Something like this...

People who look forward to being parents and research how to be a parent and then become a parent are great. They really have put a lot of loving time and thought into raising their kids and the world would be a better place if everyone did that.

People who are parents understand their kids and probably have a basic grasp of kids in general.

People who don't have kids, no matter how many books they have read just can't possibly understand what having kids is like. It's nothing bad against them, it's just a fact. If you haven't done it or been through it you can't understand.

Example:

When men say "well I know a woman can be scared, but that doesn't give her the right to abort the fetus" that's bull. A man can never ever know what it is like to be in that situation. Not ever. And it doesn't matter if he knows about human nature, it's not the same.
Another example:
When I was being treated for depression, I saw a lot of different doctors. The doctor that helped me most and connected with me best had been through depression himself. Hence he could speak from experience. The other doctors were very educated, but they just didn't have the experience.

[Iris]

102. No, but once again, I am a human being.

And I am a woman who does happen to have a innate nuturing capacity. It has been used over and over in my lifetime to mother children, including a younger sibling, whose own mothers were for whatever reason unequipped to do so.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

111. I apologize then.

Teachers, nurses, etc. are exceptionally good sources on children and their opinions would be valued on the subject.

[K-W]

52. If you dont want to discuss this with people, why are you on this thread?

If you want to discuss it with only parents, might I suggest you find a parenting forum to discuss it on.

Meanwhile, why dont you worry about making your point using a rational argument rather than trying to exclude opinions from the discussion

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. I'm not trying to exclude opinions

I'm trying to preclude serious criticism between people who know nothing about each other. Didn't you read my other post? Rational discussion would be great but that's not what people are doing. You have people making horrible claims against each other. "You used tobasco!??!? You abuser!!!" That's not rational discussion.

[seabeyond]

32. being mean. we know when we are being mean

we can feel it within self. i know i do. and if i do, i assume all others can feel the point of being mean. anytime one embraces the mean, then they are abusing. there are different levels certainly in the word abuse.

all my punishment with children never go to mean. children can easily feel when the parent is being mean. not hard for them to see either. at that point is when there is damage

listening to some discuss their parents discipline i can bet they didnt feel that their parents were being mean in handing out the punishment, that it was a lesson for them. and that is why they dont hold a resentment.

someone suggested even a glass of water could be abuse, if that was administered in mean. and i am not just talking anger, i am talking the point someone is purposely trying to hurt another.

[Kanary]

35. Very important distinction, seabeyond. very, very important.

Thanks for posting this.

I hope many take it to heart.

:hi:

Kanary

[Pithlet]

40. The distinction is meaningless to the child

Those who would parent in this way are rationalizing it away by telling themselves "I'm not being mean. I'm doing this with love" as their child stands there while it feels like their tongue is about to burn off after their parent forced the substance into their little mouthes. It may not be on the same level as beating the crap out of a kid, but many of the wackos that do that think they're not doing it out of meanness, and for the love of their child.

[Kanary]

44. That's not how I read that post.

I took it exactly the opposite.....parents can do something totally innocuous, but if there is a mean spirit involved, it will cause pain.

I certainly didn't read the poster as saying what you did...... that whatever you do is OK, as long as you call it "love". I didn't hear that at all.

And, no, it's not "meaningless" to a child. Children are *very* sensitive to knowing what is behind actions. You can belie that they know very clearly when there is meanness involved. Or, projected anger, or any of the other dysfunctional motivations.

I suspect that we see things quite similarly, but are getting hung up in words. If you will look at my other posts in this thread, I'm one of those "wackos" who labeled this whole thing as ABUSE. So, I think we're coming from the same place.

Peace, eh? :hi:

Kanary, who wants ALL, including children, to always be treated with kindness and respect. See what an idiotic idealist she is.......?

[Pithlet]

93. It sounds like rationalization to me.

Although I have a hard time reading Seabeyond's posts because of her writing style, so it is possible I misunderstood.

I do not think parents who hot sauce are always bad parents, or that they do not love their kids. I just think that, in that particular instance, they are making a very bad misguided decision in using hot sauce. I think many times they do not realize exactly how much pain it causes (rationalizations of "it's just hot sauce, a kind of food) or think "It must be a good idea. So-and-so down the road does it, and and so does that awesome Lisa Welchel from Growing Pains, so how bad can it be?" All of that does not change the fact that excruciating pain is being inflicted on their child.

My point is none of that makes the pain any worse, or makes the punishment any less abusive. I do not think that parents who use this method are always bad, abusive parents. But, when they use hot sauce it IS abusive, and I think that many parents who stops to think about it rather than rationalizing it, will probably come up with a better idea.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

97. I agree with that.

My mom used hot sauce on me...I think maybe twice. She didn't want to do it but she couldn't think of something better. She didn't want to hit me, she had tried time outs etc., and to sit a toddler down and try and reason with them ie, think about what you did wrong, etc. etc. etc. is pretty much impossible. The problem was that I was biting people and she very well couldn't let me work *that* out of my system. So she put chile on once, twice and then I learned. She never did it again, never hit me ever.

My problem is people who don't have kids especially (but people with kids too) who automatically assume a parent who has done that is abusive. It's easy to say "that's abusive" if you're not in the situation, but my mom was certainly not abusive. If she had to do it over, I don't think she would have. She was 25 years old, and she didn't know what else to do. I like the way you have put it. It's the best post I've read on here.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

33. Could you repeat that in English?

[Iris]

36. Do you think people who think certain punishments are abuse

actually believe they are raising perfect children?

I would say they know their children aren't perfect and don't believe they should inflict physical pain on them because of their mistakes and failures. Rather, they are attempting to find ways to guide their children into adulthood that don't involve physcial punishment.

[jbm]

50. I think you made your point well..

and while my first reaction was to say that using the tabasco would be wrong, when you described your son Jonas, I realized that maybe what really would be abuse to one personality type, would be more of a game and a challenge to another. I have a son, and I can't capture his personality here as well as you captured the personality of Jonas, but for my son the tabasco would be cruel..and would not bring about the desired response. My son is very quiet though, and not an open rebel. It sounds to me like maybe you and Jonas actually bonded over this punishment because you understood each other. That works for me!

BTW-what worked with my son was the "I'll give you a quarter if you hear me curse, and you have to give me a quarter if I hear you say one". To this day he's never said a bad word, but I've probably paid him several hundred dollars over the years.

[seabeyond]

59. excellent point. my first child, talking to, or if he sees

me going into anger, that is it. he needs no more

jonas though, anger never never works. it feeds it. i found a long time ago. jonas in his time of stress does not want comfort. he has always gone away, when he is sad or in pain. his sad, shows in anger. this child i have had to get totally creative. when he becomes aggressive with others i went to something different that many would disapprove up. and i did it for specific reasons.

he is a child that takes others energy to bring himself to stillness. so when in his anger i say i am gonna have to beat you. (this is what bothers people i am sure) but i chose that very aggressive word because of his aggressive behavior. i have a smile and gentleness and get on him. but never to take power away, and i tickle him, but never in the abusive tickle, and it goes into kisses of the face and the merging of energies. all these specific ingredients to work his energy out of him

this uses up the energy he was in and brings him to peace, a time out wont do, a talking to wont do. the activity of letting out in giggle is what he needs. it is letting it out in anger and hitting or in giggle. then, bodies close, touching and petting, then we can talk

i have also put a lock on door, that some would be bothered with. but in there time out, i didnt want the battle of keeping them in room. i wanted them in space they knew they wouldnt get out of, so that part is accepted so they can resolve and bring self to peace. never has the lock been used as an abuse, always it is used for the higher. it helps to heal faster.

[Misinformed01]

56. So, you abuse eloquently

Your kid obviously is learning zero from your tabasco treatment; it almost sounds like he thinks it's funny.

Send him to his room, or take away the video games/bike/whatever his toys are-

[seabeyond]

58. i didnt use tabasco on my child

nor would i. i told him when i was little my mom used soap, and i didnt even know it was a bad word. he told me i cant do that, wuld kill him. i assured him it wouldnt kill him not even hurt him, lol. but no i didnt use soap. just took talking to,.

[Misinformed01]

60. OK, I give up. I re-read your original post

going to be honest here, I am having a hard time understanding what you write. If you don't use tobacco...great--

[hexola]

61. Really doing disservice to Tabasco...

Tabasco is good stuff. Yummy. I've always tried to teach my kids to have a very broad pallette when it comes to food. The idea that some food is "bad" and a single drop should be considered to be inflicting some sort of pain is pretty bizzare. It's food. Not to be associated with punishment.

And count on the kids acting this one out with their friends...forcing each other to drink this and that.

I would suggest the folks who practice this try it with Turpentine or DeNatured Achohol...just a drop wont hurt at all. But it would probably be a lot more effective. The child wont really know the difference...they probably dont really know what Tabasco is...so why not use a non food susbstance...

Thats my hangup...giving food a bad name...

[autorank]

63. Tabasco enemas for parents to use this technique!

After all, turn-about is fair play. How about letting the employers of Tabasco parents pursue this technique at work whenever a parent makes a minor mistake...afterall, no one knows more about the workplace than your employer.

We could expand the concept: parents who beat their children would automatically be eligible for beatings at work. "Hey, Dilbert, there are three grammatical errors in your memo. Come on over here for your spanking.

Lovely world, torture children and call it parenting.

[LWolf]

64. Just some observations:

Choosing not to put tobasco on a child's tongue, or to use pain or threats of pain and fear to control a child's behavior or as a teaching technique, is not "lazy parenting."

Children who are raised without the use of pain and fear are not automatically "little bullies," "out of control," or "selfish turds." As a matter of fact, they are less likely to be bullies, because they haven't learned how to bully from their care givers. Using pain and fear to control people is a bully tactic.

Good parenting has nothing to do with how much money you have, and parents who choose not to parent through pain and fear control methods are not necessarily "not around." I agree that problems begin when the parents are not there enough, for whatever reason, but not wanting to hurt your child to make your point isn't a characteristic of absent parents.

Apparently, you felt your parenting was judged in the tobasco thread; I didn't read the whole thing, so can't comment. My observations, and pov about "saucing," are just that; not personally directed toward you.

[seabeyond]

71. as a parent that has worked my ass off for

the full..........9 years and 7 years of two sons. no time off ever, anywhere, grin. this is where i am coming from. i have taken the time to teach children in love and grace, and equally allow them to teach me. this gives all of us such ease in connecting, in love. i live in this house in spirit. we all identify and know and are clear and tuned to spirit. so all of this is pretty insignificant, as a parent, in love, because

when any of us live in lower vibration; our body, our emotion, our self (spirit) react. getting beyond this frivolous of hot sauce, or even spanking, our equal goal is harmony. that is how this home has decided to live. also we all see we are human, in body, of ego. i teach my kids this, this is why it is easy for us, also i live it in my interaction with children. i accept, i respect my boys. we come onto this earth in spirit. it is easy for little ones, spirit hasnt been terribly manipulated. my children over the 9 years have clearly taken me easily to spirit. ok

when i do something not nice, or i am impatient, even if i am right. i can say that was yuk to me, and they can say, i forgive. i understand. i know you love.

parents have a tough time right now. i am trying to create a safe world for my children, in a world of war, death, violence, perverted abusing sexuality, controlling. our rights are being taken away, our children are being drugged, not loved, .................

to me, this hotsauce, lordy awfully small. i would prefer the help in allowing my children to continue to shine. it is scary for them. they are having tons of issue. i have one that is too smart. what does a mama do. i told him yesterday, promise me, you dont change you to get along. you are just gonna be killer adult. and what it gives is the important things in life. you will have the best of marriages. and you will do wonderfully with your children. you know love.

parents are in a spin with all the do's and dont. we are a nation of hypocrisy. parents need support. and help

[seabeyond]

75. another thing this gives

that i have noticed. if i dont beat myself up for my mistakes. if i can forgive myself. then it teaches my boys that they do not have to be perfect, so that they can be love.

this has been a huge in our house. the simple in it is owning the experience. and saying to self i forgive me. i am teaching them how to forgive self. it is important to feel what people call guilt,. but what it is are the reaction of spirit to reject the lower vibration. spirit is pure

oh all you that talk about my sentence structure. the reality, you dont understand the concept. and you really arent going to get this one. but it is ok. becuase there are going to be other mothers, that are raising little ones, faced with all this judgement doing the best they can. and they are going to understand it.

[skygazer]

83. I can't believe people are still arguing about this

This may be more intense than the Cat Stevens thread, the Woody Allen thread and the Laura Branigan thread all combined!

[seabeyond]

87. these are our children our future. we love them

we want the best for them. why wouldnt it be intense and in depth. our children deserve at least this attention

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

91. Is it puppy abuse

To put a mix of mayo and cayenne pepper on the part of the cabinet he's been chewing?

Because it sure as hell works...

[seabeyond]

92. lol lol well you arent taking his power away

you certainly gave him the choice of eating it or not

that is cute

[Pithlet]

105. I apologize

I have a feeling that the comment towards you you're talking about in that thread is mine. I shouldn't have said it. For the record also, I do not think that you're a bad parent. For one thing, I really don't know that much about you to make that judgment. There have just been a few times where I've really disagreed with you regarding parenting issues. But, that still doesn't excuse what I said, and if I could edit it now, I would.

[seabeyond]

106. thank you, i appreciate it

and i dont take personally, so not offended. just a lesson.

[seabeyond]

114. having kids in 30's i pretty well knew who i was. greatest surprise

i yell. i never knew i yelled. i yell. how many moms found out they yell, once having kids. every male i talk to talk about the female voice in yell. oh, how they cant stand it because their mom yelled at them. i swore i wouldnt yell at my kids. and i yell.

i can admit to my non perfect as a parent. i have done many times on this board. and allowing my non perfect allows another. i dont care what picture a parent presents as the perfect family, i know, i can walk into a family and sit in a week and say, well see you do this. this is wrong

i also know that in my yelling it has brought a lot to the family. we talk about it. i dont pretend i dont do it. we acknowledge that though yelling isnt a good way to interact, the children, yes children have contributed to this. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th time i ask with a please. 5th time i yell and they do. so if i go from 1st ask with a please to an immediate yell, well hey, they conditioned me.

also kids see anger, and they see that even in anger they are loved, just an emotion, appropriate or not. and when they face anger in the real world, they are going to put it in its proper place.

my suggestion is it is not any one event or action that is the deal, it is what we do with it. because even anger has a higher. when you believe there is god, higher universe in all things, means even the ugliest of something. again back to we are only human

and i assure you, not all are going to be the perfect parent that some suggest we need to be. just isnt going to happen. and if that is the reality, then shouldnt we accept that, yet work on how to bring to peace the non perfect. and personally, i have no desire for perfection. not my personality. i am not anal. i am not "A" type person. i dont have to be perfect. think that may give kids something, or does that make me useless to the "A" type personality. be honest. every "A" type person i have met, think we should all be.

[seabeyond]

115. my conclusion

enough with the right telling me how to be a christian

and the left telling me how to be a parent