How do you other DUers address shameless right-wing propaganda?

[Heidi]

The following was posted today in a rather liberal community forum that my husband and I co-administer. Generally, I would have had an acidic retort, but the story, "Daddy Why Are We At War?" was posted by a very young enlisted guy, and I don't think liberals make any headway by being mean-spirited, especially to young people who've bought into the sort of propaganda the following "story" represents. (Frankly, the thing about the following story that nearly makes me barf is that it hits such a shameless array of emotional hot buttons in an attempt to make people feel unpatriotic, anti-family, anti-woman, anti-freedom, etc., if they don't support the war.)

So how would you all respond to this?

"Daddy Why Are We At War?"

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war.

My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses," He replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is theUnited States of America and you are President Bush"

Our son giggled and said, "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.

Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son.... what do you do?"


"Dad?"


"What do you do son?"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw, but they refuse to help.

What do you do then son?"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!", my son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy..he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." Our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him,"

my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies' house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in he window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?"

"Because Daddy....the police are supposed to help...people who need it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself, Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen, that, is the greatest EVIL of all.

Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war on humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" the blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"

BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!

BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!

SUPPORT THEM!!!

SUPPORTAMERICA!!

..SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."

[displacedtexan]

1. Report the freak poster to the police and let them explain that...

1. Vigilante actions are against the law;
and
2. Teaching a child to break the law is called 'contributing to the delinquency of a minor.'

The wildest crap assertion is that 'the police won't do anything.'

BTW, The UN is not the world's police force.

What a crock!

The Backside Of The Bell Curve never ceases to amaze me:
http://ascrivenerslament.blogspot.com/

Edited for lack of an 'a.'

[shaolinmonkey]

2. How about this:

"Now what do you do if you find out daddy told the neighbor to start hitting his wife because she doesn't like daddy?"

Everybody forgets, we put Saddam there and we supported him.

[AIJ Alom]

3. If this conversation was ever held with a child than the person inciting

If this conversation was ever held with a child than the person inciting those words should lose custody.


Then post this response...

Quote:
"When good men stand by and let evil happen, that, is the greatest EVIL of all."

So where was the president of the United States on August 6, 2001 when this memo for HIS EYES ONLY WAS IN FRONT OF HIS FACE ?

[markbark]

4. Counter argument with this:

The following conversation took place recently in a courtroom somewhere in America:

Judge: So what exactly happened?
Defendant: Well, your honor, I killed him.
Judge: And why did you do it?
Defendant: I was afraid that if I didn't kill him, he would kill me.
Judge: Had he threatened to kill you?
Defendant: Well, no, not really.
Judge: Had he ever attacked you in any way?
Defendant: No, your honor.
Judge: Had he ever threatened to physically attack you in any way?
Defendant: No sir.
Judge: Was there something about him physically that intimidated you?
Defendant: No, definitely not. As you can see, I'm a big, brawny guy. And he was small and relatively weak.
Judge: Well then, did he have friends that threatened or intimidated you?
Defendant: No, your honor. He didn't really have many friends.
Judge: Did he have any weapons?
Defendant: I was afraid that he might have.
Judge: But did you ever see any weapons? Did he ever threaten you with any weapons?
Defendant: No, your honor. I sent some friends of mine over to his house several times to look for them though.
Judge: And ... ?
Defendant: They didn't find anything.
Judge: And when you killed him ...? Were any weapons found at that time?
Defendant: No sir.
Judge: So he didn't actually have any weapons?
Defendant: Well, I think he kept them well hidden. I know that he used to have some.
Judge: Used to? When was that?
Defendant: Oh, about fifteen years ago. He had some then for sure.
Judge: For sure? What makes you so sure?
Defendant: Because I sold them to him.
Judge: But I thought you were afraid of him?
Defendant: I was.
Judge: I see. Did he live near you?
Defendant: No. He actually lived all the way on the other side of town. We never really had occasion to see each other.
Judge: So your paths didn't really cross on a regular basis?
Defendant: No, sir. Our paths didn't really cross at all.
Judge: So this guy never ventured over to your side of town? And he never threatened you in any way, and never attacked you in any way, either personally or through a surrogate, and yet you felt threatened enough by him that you felt justified in killing him? Is that about right?
Defendant: That is correct, your honor. Like I said, I was afraid that if I didn't kill him, he would kill me.
Judge: I see here that, according to the police report, you were found in the victim's home, standing over his dead body.
Defendant: That is correct.
Judge: So he didn't come looking for you -- you went looking for him? Is that correct?
Defendant: Yes, sir. I wanted to get to him before he got to me.
Judge: I see. Is there anything else you would like to add?
Defendant: Just that a year or two ago, I was assaulted.
Judge: By this same guy?
Defendant: No. By a different guy from a different neighborhood. That's what I told everyone, anyway.
Judge: And was this other guy a friend of the guy you killed?
Defendant: Oh, no. They hated each other.
Judge: So that assault had nothing to do with you feeling threatened by this other guy?
Defendant: No, not really.
Judge: Okay, then. This is clearly a case of self defense. You are free to go, sir.
Defendant: Thank you, your honor.

[July]

5. Tell them I'm not swayed.

Long, emotional rationalizations for pre-emptive war and for acting as the world's morality (good/evil) enforcer are still rationalizations. Prettying up costly mistakes by saying we're doing what is right and are the lone defenders of right is called denial.

Also, I always point out that Bush and America are two different things, and I don't have to support the former if he's harming the latter.

[lilymidnite]

6. > /dev/null

[ChrisK]

7. I'm sorry but it's just not that simple

The poster uses the child/window/world to speak in a simple mindedness so the reader can see it thru the boys eyes but it's just not that simple when you see the world as a place that is ever changing and the people of different cultures and lifestyles that see YOU in a light that is not too flattering.

What's missing here is the rights of other countries and there leaders..we know there are many atrocities that happen around the world everyday in countries that we have a good relationship like China or Saudi Arabia and do almost nothing about and if asked why were ignoring them we just say "they have the right to run there country the way they see fit"...

Maybe the boy ought to turn to his dad and ask why he didn't go after that bad man across the street when he had the chance years back or why he is ignoring the man a few houses down thats making nuclear weapons or why he is sitting there watching TV when mom needs help getting to a doctor but can't do it alone because she can't afford the doctor she needs.

Maybe "dad" ought to fix whats happening at home before reaching out to the rest of the world with claws instead of a peace offering.

The world is a dangerous place but when you act without regard for others you just add to the misery.

[Demit]

8. I'd suppress the urge to say "what crapola!" and....wait....not done.....

Okay. I'd point out that the parents in that story (after they've dried all the copious tears) should APOLOGIZE TO THEIR KID FOR MAKING HIM THINK THE POLICE ARENT GOING TO HELP HIM AND THAT HE SHOULD TAKE THE LAW INTO HIS OWN HANDS. For starters.

A more precise analogy is when all the neighbors know that a man routinely beats his wife. Are they justified in going into his house to beat him up? And destroy all his furniture and the walls and maybe kicking over the crib in the melee so that the baby falls out and is permanently crippled?

No.

You see, Son, the president is wrong. If you refuse to listen to other people's advice and just blindly rush ahead with what you alone want to do, without thinking it through, you can very easily make a situation worse.

[Love Bug]

9. This was discussed the other day with a great response

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=852170

[baldguy]

10. How's this?

Daddy Why Are We At War?"

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war.

My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses," He replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush"

Our son giggled and said, "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife. You know that SHE really doesn’t like you, but he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.

Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son.... what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?"

"I call the police, Dad."

“No, son. You give the man a crow bar, so he’ll be able to hit her harder.”

“…um, Dad…?”

“And then when he’s done with her, he’ll start on the children. What do you do then?”

“um, now do I call the police?”

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations. Now the UN doesn’t live outside the neighborhood; everyone is part of it. The “police” is really made up of all your neighbors. You call them up and tell them what you know and saw. They say, ‘OK, lets get the neighborhood together so we can do something. But, in the meantime – stop giving that man weapons.’

What do you do then son?"

"Dad, I guess I go to the meeting and get people to help!", my son starts to whine.

“No, son. You let him borrow your baseball bat. You see him start beating one of the kids, but you don’t care – he was a mean little bastard anyway. After he kills the first kid, he’s tired and goes inside leaving the others kids crying for help. By this time the UN has got the meeting organized.”

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...and you helped him. What do you do at the UN meeting?”

“Well we’ve GOT to help now!’

“Yes, but the first thing we do is talk to him. Maybe there’s something going on we don’t know about. Maybe he’s sick, maybe it’s just like we think and he’s just mean.

At the meeting everyone decides thAT #1 Saddam is a bad man, #2 What he did was wrong, #3 YOU should stop giving him weapons, #4 We should take his weapons he has away from him, and #5 We should protect his other kids.

Does that sound right?”

“Yeah, we should do something!”

“And if he doesn’t agree to do what we tell him we’ll take him away.

Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to your dog."

"Daddy..he kills him?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him, like we agreed at the UN meeting." Our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening, and he get his neighbor, and he get HIS neighbor. And you all go over to take to Saddam. But Saddam gets mad, and you all have to restrain him. After we take all his stuff – including the weapons – away, he agrees to behave. He’s not real happy about it, but he doesn’t have much choice." my husband says.

“Finally! Daddy, why did I give the bad man the crow bar and the baseball bat?”

“You needed the money and you wanted to make friends with Saddam. He’s got OIL in his backyard!”

“And I like oil?”

“OH, YEAH you like oil! You LOVE oil!

Now Saddam been behaving himself for a while, but every time he sees you he yells and curses and swears at you. You don’t like it, but it doesn’t REALLY hurt you. So you ignore him, OK?”

“OK” my son says

“But meanwhile, Saddams neighbor – who he hates too, by the way – comes over to your property and burns down your garage. Your sister’s inside and she dies. Now, now son –“

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

“I know it’s mean & horrible, but remember? We’ve got the UN! They’re gonna help us!”

"HOW?" Our son starts to cry.

“Well, we go over to Osama’s house – its not really his house, he’s just renting – and make him move out. And we take the property away from the owner – just ‘cause he let Osama live there.”

“OK. That’s better – almost.”

“Right. Now Saddam is still bothering you. So you ask the UN if – ya know, since you’re there – why don’t you take him out as well.”

“Why? He’s not doing nothing!”

“He’s BOTHERING you! Remember? Yelling & swearing? He just BOTHERS you! Anyway the UN says ‘No way!’ and his kids say ‘Stay out!’ and you other neighbors say ‘That’s not a really good idea!’ and your friends say “We’re not gonna like you anymore if you do that’.

What do you do?”

“I wouldn’t go there. It’s not right!”

“NO! YOU GO IN AND TAKE HIM OUT! What are you? Some sort of wussie? You HAD to go in. He was making fun of you!”

"But, Daddy that’s not right. Is it?"

"YOU think it is. It doesn’t matter what everyone else thinks"

"Daddy..."

"Of course, everyone hates you now. All the sympathy you got for your sister’s death is gone

And because of what you did to Saddam, nobody at the UN will help you. What you did was just as bad as what Osama did.”

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "But I still have to find Osama, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son asks him..."Why?"

"Because Daddy....he killed my sister! the police are supposed to help...people who need it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...”

“But also, the people in the neighborhood are supposed to follow the rules. You didn’t do that. You gave Saddam weapons when you weren’t supposed to, and you invaded him when you weren’t supposed to.”

My son’s crying, and I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

“We’re at war because the people that make these decisions made bad choices. And they LIED to us. And they LIED to the world. The PRESIDENT is a bad man.”

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "BUT THAT’S NOT RIGHT!! THE PRESIDENT SHOULDN’T LIE!! HE SHOULDN’T BE A BAD MAN, WE’VE GOT TO GET HIM OUT!!”

Our President is breaking the law, but here at home and – just as Kofi Annan said – internationaly as well. We are supposed to be a free nation, but WE must understand that this war and this President bringing back fascism to America. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" the blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.

YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! WE HAVE TO STOP LETTING OUR LEADERS DO WHAT IS WRONG

BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

GET RID OF THIS CRIMINAL PRESIDENT!

VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IN NOVEMBER!

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS - BRING THEM HOME!!!

SUPPORT AMERICA, NOT FASCISM!!

SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN IN A PEACEFUL WORLD AND A FREE AMERICA!!!


edit for stupid mistakes

[Heidi]

11. Ya'll . . .

make me proud to be a liberal-red-headed-Oklahoma-native-living-in-Switzerland-and-dealing-rationally-with-wrong-headed-propaganda.

Thank you all a jillion times for the responses. I think I've cooled off enough to respond to the poster in a rational way.

[liveoaktx]

12. Oh, yeah, I got this the other day, here's what I said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=852170

[mimitabby]

13. and

okay, son, you see those other neighbors, where the man is beating
his children cruelly? they don't have such a nice house, so we
aren't worried about them. the only mean neighbor we're going to take
care of is the one with the mercedes benz in the garage, and the
olympic sized pool...

[skygazer]

14. Oh, please

You point out that the reason we went into Iraq was not because Saddam was a Bad Man who killed his own people but because he was said to be a threat to us with WMD's which have never been found. He never "showed up at our door" - we went knocking on his.

This is reality not some kind of parable, for crying out loud. We were told he had WMD's and we had to attack.

He didn't have WMD's so we were told we were going to "liberate" the Iraqis from the boogyman.

The Iraqis didn't want to be liberated so now we're told we're there for "freedom", whatever that means.

And it's all a clusterfuck.