One of the AEI chickenhawks, Michael Ledeen, says that we must

[Veggie Meathead]

invade Iran because we are a warlike people who do not feel good unless we are kicking ass in some part of the world or another.Much as I want to disagree with this AH,I believe he may be on to something.When our War on Vietnam came unhinged in 1975, there were many that felt that our military was forced to fight with one hand tied behind its back and a massive nuclear assault of Vietnam would have turned the War in our favor.The War on Iraq is essentially a way for these bloodthirsty people to prove themselves once more.

The Democrats and Republicans are caught in this treadmill of appearing weak if they seek peace.So, each party postures more and more and caters to its bloodthirsty wing.The solution, as in Vietnam, will have to come from the victims.While we evaluate our victories in a weekly cycle, the peoples of Iraq and Iran and other Arab countries have to seek victory in a decade or longer cycle.The wheels of history are going to favor their patient struggle.

[AntiCoup2K4]

1. I don't see Ledeen signing up

Nor do I see any of his AEI/PNAC/AIPAC/traitor chickenhawk buddies doing so either. Or 90% of the Freeps for that matter.

If they want to bring on Armegeddon, let them put their own pathetic treasonous asses out there. :grr:

[librechik]

2. Testosterone appeal

leaves a whole lot of people out of policy. This is the most ridiculous statement I've heard yet from that lunatic.

[whistle]

3. George Patton said something like that....

...or at least George C Scott who played Patton in the movie by the same name said: "Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you’ve heard about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big league ball player, the toughest boxer. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. I wouldn’t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That’s why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. Because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans."

<link> http://www.historyinfilm.com/patton/speech.htm

[atreides1]

4. We're not a Warlike People

We are bigots and racists, who can no longer direct our hatred internally so now we direct it externally, and sugar coat with neat little titles like "War on Drugs" or "War on Terror", when what it really is, is a war dark skinned people who we refuse to try to understand, or don't march in lockstep with American viewpoints.

The one main thing connecting it all together is the fact that the conutries we attack do not have the ability to fight back.

On edit: Not all Americans are bigots, just the ones like Ledeen, Pearle, Wolfowitz, and the other cowards, whose main interest is not the survival of the United States.

[punpirate]

5. As I recall, Ledeen's kid, Simone, was one of the...

... CPA creeps assigned to parceling out taxpayer funds for reconstruction who instead spent their time with their feet up on their desks, talking about how they were going to fuck the Democrats in the next election, and got her job through the American Enterprise Institute.

Ledeen's a PNAC storm trooper. Who cares what he thinks? Whatever comes out of his mouth is wrong. And, as I recall, he's yet another of the Repug chickenhawks who didn't serve, but thinks we should fight wars all over the world--as long as he and his don't have to stick their necks out.

Fuck `im.

[TankLV]

6. The military always complains during peacetime that they aren't "ready"

or "in shape" militarily enough - that they need actual combat to keep in "top fighting order" or some such similar theme.

This is quite adverse to any hope of a peaceful future world.

I don't know if there is a solution.

"Computer games" don't seem to cut it.

We must be vigilant - but how can we change the mentality to plan for PEACE when we are constantly doing everything to prepare for war?

[Veggie Meathead]

9. Tom Friedman, in his inimitable style to state the obvious,said:

We invaded Iraq because we could.Tells you a whole lot doesn't it?

[peacetalksforall]

7. Pathetic.

He is an advisor, planner, operative for Israel and PNAC.

We are supposed to be the world leaders. In what? Killing. We are told that we have a democracy that allows peaceful education, industry, entrepreunership, voting, home owning, vacation taking, military for defense and we're told that we are superior because we provide an example around the world and help where needed.
Shall I ask my friend if her young son should die for the people he works for? Should I ask my cousin if its OK for her daughter lose her eyesight for this agent of Israel?

It looks like he's not giving up and is out there to pump the killing blood in some of us.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. I remember reading that Ledeen gave a speech

urging we go after Iran when we had just gotten into Iraq!

PNAC has way too much influence with Bush* in power.

[SOS]

10. Ledeen - A PNAC fascist

Not using the word loosley either. Ledeen is an admirer of global "creative destruction" and "fascism-movement". His idols are the early Italian fascists of the 1920s.
He is now actively agitating for war against Iran.
From American Conservative, Flirting with Fascism, an article on Ledeen:

http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html

[starroute]

11. Ledeen is an outright fascist

Ledeen is hipped on the early twentieth century belief that war is a good thing in and of itself, that societies that aren't warlike are decadent, that it's all Darwinian survival of the fittest and fitness equates to staying in fighting trim. Men like that are very dangerous -- even more so than the usual right-wing greedheads and freepish ask-kickers.


http://kurtnimmo.com/blog/index.php?p=12

It’s curious how neocon Michael Ledeen can praise fascism and at the same time denounce it. In an article in NRO, Ledeen gives us his take on fascism. Bad fascism is the racial kind practiced by Hitler and the Nazis, while good fascism is the sort practiced by Mussolini. Of course, since it is politically incorrect to praise fascism, even for neocons, Ledeen does not necessarily dub Mussolini’s originating brand of fascism “good.” Instead, he does not say anything bad about it.

Most of the fascist leaders who looked to Rome for inspiration were not racists, and did not share the Nazis’ vision of a great empire ruled by a single fuhrer. They were intensely nationalistic, and believed that each national unit would develop its own unique form of fascism… They shared a wildly optimistic vision of human potential and a common political style. Above all, fascism foresaw a transformation of man from a supine servant of modern bourgeois society to a creative warrior who would transform the world in his new image. The fascists believed that the prototype of the “new fascist man” had been forged in the trenches of the first world war -- above all, the willingness to risk all, and sacrifice all, for the cause -- and that only such men were worthy of positions of power and prestige.

First, Ledeen makes a point of divorcing fascism from racism. Second, he underscores crucial neocon themes – nationalism, the creative warrior, sacrifice in war, and warrior leaders – as he describes the fascist ethos. Incidentally, Ledeen points out “there were no female fascist leaders,” insinuating only men can reach “positions of power and prestige.”

[SOS]

15. "Ledeen makes a point of divorcing fascism from racism"

Here he must mean the racism of the European fascists of the 20th century. But throwing "some crappy little country against the wall" is a different kind of racism which Ledeen embraces. It all depends on who the victim is.

[Eloriel]

17. More re Ledeen

“Lying is central to the survival of nations and to the success of great enterprises, because if our enemies can count on the reliability of everything you say, your vulnerability is enormously increased....Look at the map of the world: national boundaries have not been drawn by peaceful men leading lives of spiritual contemplation. National boundaries have been established by war, and national character has been shaped by struggle, most often bloody struggle.”

--Michael Ledeen

Quoted in this article: Universal fascism, freedom betrayed: What is Mr. Bush doing in your name? By Craig B Hulet
http://www.theothernews.com/article.asp?dept=1&category=128&article=100

and another snip:

Now this does not mean that the rhetoric of Christian fundamentalism is not used, indeed, Leeden sees it as necessary, not that it be true, but as a tool of control and electoral ambitions, fear and justification to the ignorant masses of the Left and the Right.

snip

As Ledeen pointed out in his book, “Without fear of God, no state can last long, for the dread of eternal damnation keeps men in line, causes them to honor their promises, and inspires them to risk their lives for the common good....Without fear of punishment, men will not obey laws that force them to act contrary to their passions. Without fear of arms, the state cannot enforce the laws…to this end, Machiavelli wants leaders to make the state spectacular.” And then add this to the stench of Ledeen’s version of Machiavellianism: “Dying for one’s country doesn’t come naturally. Modern armies, raised from the populace, must be inspired, motivated, indoctrinated. Religion is central to the military enterprise, for men are more likely to risk their lives if they believe they will be rewarded forever after for serving their country.” Ron Paul was right to rebut this nonsense with the following “This is an admonition that might just as well have been given by Osama bin Laden, in rallying his troops to sacrifice their lives to kill the invading infidels, as by our intellectuals at the AEI, who greatly influence our foreign policy.” (Ibid.)


The article is a pretty good overview of the Straussians.

Here are a few others:

NEO-CONS
One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes
WAKE UP! - Strauss / Neocons and Terror PLUS dire warnings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1780890#1781801

Leo Strauss and the Noble Lie: The Neo-Cons at War
http://www.logosjournal.com/mason.htm

Straussian.net -- Leo Strauss and the History of Political Thought
(with Discussion Forums! Book Reviews and a News Blog)
http://www2.bc.edu/~wilsonop/strauss.html

Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
By Jim Lobe, AlterNet. Posted May 19, 2003.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935
linked to from this thread: Has Straussian ideology permeated the GOP?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2121269#2122935

Eurolegal Services - Neoconservatives
http://www.eurolegal.org/useur/usneocon.htm

[Veggie Meathead]

20. Would have fitted nicely into Mein Kampf, I might add.

[GreenArrow]

12. Michael Leeden, as per his pal, Jonah Goldberg:

"Well, I’ve long been an admirer of, if not a full-fledged subscriber to, what I call the “Ledeen Doctrine.” I’m not sure my friend Michael Ledeen will thank me for ascribing authorship to him and he may have only been semi-serious when he crafted it, but here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words:

“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.”

That’s at least how I remember Michael phrasing it at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute about a decade ago."


Lovely chap, what.

[Veggie Meathead]

13. Your exact description of what he said brings out the essential

savagery of this man beneath the veneer of his scholarly pretensions.A man William Shirer would have recognized instantly from the many courtiers he met in Berlin.

[AlCzervik]

14. Him and what army?

These people from AEI are living in a bubble. They need to suit up and head on over there and do some recon and then they'll find out what a different place Iran is from Iraq.

[Eloriel]

18. Actually, it's more than a bubble

WE see them as out of touch, but that's actually underestimating the pathology involved. They're mentally ill -- sociopaths/psychopaths, delusional, and they've built a whole PHILSOPHY and rationale that supports their pathological view of things.

That's actually one of the maddening things. You will NEVER be able to convince them they are in any way wrong, especially perhaps morally wrong. When their Struassian philosophy promotes lying "for the common good"; when it supports authoritarian hierarchy (of which they are a part, of course, as "the elite"); when it prmotes international thuggery, bullying and brutality; when it endorses religions (esp. Christian Fundamentalism) as a way to keep the masses compliant, there'l; be no chance of reaching any innate conscience in any of them to make them understand how depraved what they espouse really is. They are unreachable.

[Cat Atomic]

21. That's a very interesting point.

"...it supports authoritarian hierarchy (of which they are a part, of course, as "the elite")"

For all of Ledeen's rhetoric on fascism's ability to transform the common man from a "supine servant of modern bourgeois society", into a "creative warrior"... he certainly praises authoritarianism alot.

Ledeen praises the general populace, and then talks as if they were nothing but stupid sheep who need a strong shepherd. All lies, ways of fooling them into dying for their "betters".

It's the same story we've seen a thousand times. People like Ledeen don't mind dictatorship or social inequity. 'Just so long as they're the dicators', to paraphrase another prominent American fascist.

[salin]

16. Isn't Leeden associated with the whole leaking of

classified of intelligence on Iran to Israel story? Involved in setting up meetings with Irani dissidents - even after told by the State Department and Pentagon to stop doing so... dissidents that include Ghorbifar - the nefarious arms dealer who is so shady that the CIA considers him to be highly unreliable... that Leeden? Ya, he should be one leading the charge on US foreign policy...

[underpants]

19. Frau Pletka was just on Fox saying she couldn't imagine....

doing anything differently than we have or are doing in Iraq.

I wasn't surprised.