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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:07 PM
Original message
An appeal to those who are considering leaving the country
We are in agreement that Bush and his sordid compatriots are indeed fascists. Moreover, I will not even attempt to romanticize the campaign we will have to conduct against said tyrants.

But please reconsider fleeing from America.

Some act as if our fall from grace began in December 2000, or, just as absurd, that the Republican party is entirely at fault. Yet, if one were to look back on the foreign policies of both Democratic and Republican administrations, it would be tempting to proclaim America the leading terrorist state since 1945.

I certainly would.

Yet this is the nuclear age--there will not be an Allied Powers
to spare the world our government's malice. This privilege and curse lies with us--WE live in the belly of the beast. WE have to fight. I don't know how we should do it--I believe there is room in this world for the William Lloyd Garrisons and the John Browns--but we have to wage it, nonetheless.

If you will not do this, than who will?
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who Will Have The Money, Energy, And Time To Fight
with the middle class systematically destroyed by the far right.

When one has to work two jobs were before one would suffice, how does this leave time to fight.

I would really like to know.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I understand what you are saying.
But the time may come when those of us who are being worn down by working two or three jobs just to make ends meet may actually consider these the good times.

Things could get much, much worse.

The people who fought for unions felt they had nothing to lose, nowhere to go but up. They put their lives on the line for better conditions for themselves and for future generations. It was about dignity as much as money.

I hope it does not come to that. I hope we do not decide to fight only when we have nothing left. But if they steal too much, including our dignity, it will only work against them.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The question is, do Americans have it in them to fight?
Oh yeah, a lot of us sit around and proclaim fascist rule, but how many of us would be willing organize and force the hand of change in this country? Would I? Would you? Would anyone? or are we all too brainwashed by 24/7 marketing, credit debt prosperity and cheap crap at wallymart?
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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. There is never a Good time to fight.
We have to by every means possible or we will never win.
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Sagan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've got two sons -- 2 years and 4 months old...

If Chimpy wins, we're gone. I am NOT raising my sons to be stormtroopers for the Bush family.

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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Why are you living in a militarized country in the first place, then?
Edited on Mon Sep-20-04 10:37 PM by DerekG
Your sons were ALWAYS intended to be stormtroopers, Sagan; this is all the more reason why we should serve as bulwarks.

Wilson sent a generation of boys to die in the cauldron of World War I, for reasons other than national security.

Truman sent a generation of boys to die in Korea, for reasons other than national security.

Johnson and Nixon sent a generation of boys to die in Vietnam, for reasons other than national security.
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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Your not alone I have 2 boys 6&9
Don't run, Fight !
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unslinkychild1 Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. AMEN!
My boys are 16 and 18 yrs old. We are SO out of here if * wins again.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
28. It's a big problem. I have two sons, one a teen, one preteen
If chimpy gets selected again my older boy will be drafted before anything can change.

I'm furious with Republicans I know who will vote for chimp without a thought of what they are doing to their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews...I almost wish there were a draft now so that people would take this seriously.

It's too easy to let other people's children die for a stupid war.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. I've got 3 sons ages 22, 18 and 13.
And I'm not sure what I'm going to do if bu$h wins in november.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have two draft aged sons
I will not give them to a * war. No way are they going to go even if it mean we leave. If they can get out safely I might stay but not them.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. again, I say, if the draft comes..NO ONE GO
Refuse. Us older guys will set up an underground to help keep the fascist swine from filling our prisons with good people.

Can't very well fight a war if no one shows up.
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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Ditto
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Any real attempt
at a revolution would be stamped out with no mercy. And - this is not the 18th Century, with both sides more or less equally armed, the only real difference being training and dicipline. Citizens can't stand up to tanks and helicopters. If that Nazi bastard steals the election again, I'm off to Canada. America as we knew it will be down the tubes.
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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. The Iraqis seem have the ability...
to go up against tanks and helicopters. America has been in much worse shape than it is now. We are far from being down the tubes, it will just take some work to rebuild. I know work is a four letter word for most of us americans. But I think if we quit the lemmings from running to Cannada and pull together we can do it.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I don't know when
we were ever in worse shape than we're in right now. Just read some of the stories on the D.U. homepage, you need go no further - a woman arrested for shouting at Laura Bush at during a rally,(her son was a serviceman killed in Iraq) another woman fired from her job because of a Kerry sticker on her car - and you don't think that our Democracy is going down the tubes? This kind of crap should not happen in America. Not the America I grew up in, and it just keeps getting worse. Even the media is in the pockets of Bushco. CBS apologizing for a 60 Minutes story on Shrubs National Guard escapades? You loose freedom of the press, you're on the road to tyranny.
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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. There's no doubt we're on the road...
Look back to the labor movement in the early part of last century. Or the Red Scare. Put the Question to some DUers who lived through the 60's and were politicaly active. Things have been worse. We have reason to be excited about what's happening but the sky hasn't fallen yet. We shouldn't cower from the event we are living though we should see it as a call to action. Every one can find ways to be proactive.
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. Leave and fight the battle in safety...
Like so many thousands did in the late 30's. Those that didn't leave ended up dead.

Those that did leave help end that facist take over faster.






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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. It hasn't come to that yet...
If we stand together and rally behind Progressive leaders we will have success. I don't know that there is reason or an effectiveness to fighting battles from safety. There is always risk involved.
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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. I ain't goin' nowhere, baby!
Edited on Mon Sep-20-04 10:40 PM by NightTrain
I can fuck with the right a lot more effectively in America than I could in some other country. Just think of those right-wing Cuban dipshits who've been trying since to overthrow Castro from Miami! :eyes:
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Senior citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sometimes an opposition in exile is the only one that survives. n/t
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. We can do as much from abroad as we can do domestically.
If the US does go off the deep end, it is going to be up to Europe to salvage the situation. The USSR is already going over the edge, China has always been over the edge. The only thing with enough military power to play the games with them that still represents some semblence of a people's will is the European Union. If I really wanted to dedicate myself to fighting, I would go to Europe and work to educate europeans on the United States to keep the pressure on the European governments to refuse to stand by the US if it intends to continue being an agressor.

Regardless, I think people who cant stand living here should exercise thier rights and leave. They shouldnt have to stay and suffer. We all have different situations and different thresholds. I'm currently fed up with our nations economy, government, leaders, and the darker sides of our culture. I may leave, and if I do I will not forget what is going on here.
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Fighting from abroad? I'm not buying it...
"If I really wanted to dedicate myself to fighting, I would go to Europe and work to educate europeans on the United States to keep the pressure on the European governments to refuse to stand by the US if it intends to continue being an agressor."

Unless you have contacts within the apparatus--shuttling between countries as a spy--I'm calling foul on your answer. The Europeans don't need education from you--they have a media that still has some semblance of professionalism.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Buy what, there is nothing to buy, im not trying to scam you.
Of course I could educate Euprope, I have first hand experience, yes, they have more objective journalism on america, it is still foriegn news to them.

European countries will be in a destinct position to stop this from escalating into WW3.

You seem to be foregetting that if these people are as criminal as some suspect, you wont be able to do much good here either.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that staying here is a strategy that would cause a great deal of impact on things. It wouldnt, and neither would going abroad. Either way one could use thier voice and actions to support what is right.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. Most europeans have not been to the USA
... and are prone to mistaking what is going on in a big way. Your
foul call is incorrect. You have more voting power writing and
speaking in europe than you have in america by 1000 times. The
pressure must be brought to bear against the pro-bush british
right, that is the most dangerous element of radical nutters in
europe, giving the US the excuse of international legitimacy.

Greg Palast says he can't publish what he does in the US. Real
journalism is dead, and he can best influence by writing abroad.
Once it hits stateside, he describes it as the "media berlin wall".

I can't tell you the number of european people whom, after a healthy
and intense chat about the USA, shake my hand and looking me in the
eye, saying: "You know mate, america is really scaring me, but i feel
much better to meet an intelligent good hearted american in person."
Many people in europe need some goodwill... it is in desperately
short supply.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
35. From abroad, you can sit in the cafe & remember the old country.
If I had the money, I might consider it, too. Ah, the romantic & melancholy life of the exile.
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. I understand ...
that those of you with children would consider leaving, but for me, I'm staying. I do believe in this country. Maybe we haven't always stood for what we should and we definitely haven't always done what we should, but I think that most of us have pretty high ideals of what we think this country should be. And, despite all the gloominess of the current state of affairs, I still think we can live up to those ideals.

The thing is, before any great change, there is always darkness. That's why we say it's darkest before the dawn. We have been surrounded by pettiness and meanness and hatred and just plain stupidity, but I believe we are on the brink. That's why the right is getting so vicious. They know their time is over.

So, everybody can do what they want if Bush wins in Nov. But there are a lot of good people in this country that can't leave because of money and family. And I'm not going to leave them behind. Maybe this all sounds melodramatic, but it's the way I feel.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "They know their time is over "
I can't agree with that.

what is so frightening is the christian right is growing. How do you explain the poll numbers? Kerry doesn't seem to bre catching on for various reasons,one of which is the media keeps poundong against Kerry and most of the media is owned by repukes. The rise of conservatism is happening now and the last several years and the rise of liberalism was in the 1960s-70s.
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I can't agree with that.
In my opinion, you have to look at the larger picture -- much larger than even 40 years ago. I honestly believe that the overarching march of the world is towards more progessive ideals. The Christian Right already had their time -- it was called the Dark Ages. We've been there, done that. Yes, in the US, people seem to be getting more conservative, but the rest of the world isn't. Maybe we have to fall deep down into conservatism in order to really get rid of it. But the fact of the matter is, it's over. We're moving forward, as the world always has.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. but the rest of the world isn't
reactionaries, fundies in Islam too, Egypt going more fundie, Turkey possibly, Iran went fundie, etc. Bin Laden and his fundie splitoff groups
An English observer/ writer on US culture just wrote a book on the rise of conservatism in the US.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. If you could go back in time
to the 1930's, would you be advising Jews in Europe to stay? Well, okay, so maybe this isn't really quite the same, but what if it is? What if they start rounding up liberals? What if we all have to sign loyalty oaths to keep our jobs. And we lose the jobs if we're caught participating in certain proscribed left wing extremist web sites. And, well you get the idea.

I have never heard so many people say that if Bush stays in power they will leave. I suppose only a tiny number really will do so, but it's the numbers saying it that's so amazing.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Bush is sort of like McCarthy in the 50s
totally scary and it wouldn't surprise me if he did start rounding people up under another Patriot Act.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. The government has never gotten powers like that and not used them
on political opponants.

Heck, I will say no government in the history of man has gotten powers like that and not used them on political opponants.
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. We are not Jews yet; we are still Germans
The real victims are the poor denizens of the myriad countries containing oil reserves; until FEMA gets kicked into high gear, the Left and members of the Old Right have a window of opportunity rapidly closing.

We are in need of all lovers of democracy who are planning an exodus to other countries.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Liberal Germans didnt exactly have it easy. EOM
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Agreed
I am well aware of Hitler's war against the unions--but the brownshirts haven't come a knockin' yet. All is not lost...yet.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. So would you not advise anyone to leave?
I used to read old Life Magazines. In 1938, after the Anschluss, the takeover of Austria by Germany, Life Magazine showed a photo of Austrian Jews lined up to get permits to go live in Poland, and when I saw that, I actually said out loud "No!", startling the readers in the public library I was in when reading that particular issue. I wanted to step back in time to that photo and warn them they were simply going to a place where things were even worse.

I couldn't do that, of course, and I could be very wrong today. But just look at the record of this administration. Detentions of citizens without access to lawyers, a trampling of civil rights and first amendment rights of many. Attempts to keep us in a constant state of fear. It does not bode well.

I, too, have draft age sons. One has some mild deficits (Asperger's syndrome) that would probably keep him out of the service. The other, a senior in high school, is exactly the kind of young man who would make a good soldier. Only I can't get him to understand why I'm so afraid for him. What I fear most is that if the Bush cabal stays in power, when he graduates from high school in May he (along with his fellow graduates) will be passed directly to the induction center.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Actually, they started rounding up the political dissidents and
intelligentsia even before they went after the Jews.

We're first in line, because we know too much.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. We're on the verge of that
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 01:38 AM by tx.lib
already - as I stated earlier, read some of the stories that are posted on the D.U. home page, about people being fired for refusing to donate money to the Repukes, or for sporting Kerry stickers on their cars, or shouting at Laura Bush during a rally, and getting arrested. I's a real eye opener. These people don't give a damn about Democracy or human rights, they're all about greed, and money, and power. And getting rid of anyone who opposes their agenda.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
32. let the frightened leave now!
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Chelsea Patriot Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Get The Fuck Out Now , Cowards!!!!

And leave saving this great country to the real patriots!

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!

No one wants to see you with a Brain concussion!
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Thank you for that rousing patriotic outburst ala Rush Limbaugh
:eyes:
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Lady_Liberty Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. No need to get vulgar...
"chill"
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DaveofCali Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
34. Fight? What Fight?
Liberals have been fighting the government since the late 60s, and the Government will not change because liberals don't do the things that will get them real power in this country.

Liberals have to become much more organized and do things more like a business (including things like actual strategy). Liberals also need to see this more like a war. I know liberals are against war, but when your opponent is using strategies of war to keep you from getting power, you have to fight back and all the strategy for fighting back effectively is from war (and business strategy is derived partly from war). Consider this as an information war. And unlike the Right Wing, you guys have ethics on your side.

Look: why have liberals let the Right Wing to smear the very word of liberal? Where are all those limousine liberals that should be giving checks to liberal causes that make marketing campaigns to strengthen the image of the word liberal and the causes represented by liberalism!?

When liberals are using demonstrations that hardly gets news coverage (i.e. being put at the back of the newspaper), and right wingers are using modern marketing techniques and control the media,then you know that one group is using obsolete methods. And in business, if your obsolete, you are history.
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Zech Marquis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
37. I was in the "getting the hell out of Dodge"mood before
Especially in the dark, dark days after 9/11 and 2002. NOw, I've decided to fight the BFEE and their Nazi fiends. I will be here stateside to vote, and I will be volunteering for the Kerry campaign on weekends. And I WILL wear my Kerry shirt and button ech day I'm off from work, and let everyone know where I stand just by going aout my business.

Last Thursday I wore my Kerry t shirt out again :evilgrin: I can't count how many times I headrso many people see my shirt and say,"oh by the way (to their friend or whoever), you did register to vote right?" One girl at one of the local Food Lions said"man I have to change my voter registration from California to here quick!" The Freeper types see my shirt and make a beeline to the nearest path away from me :evilgrin: Must be my good, strong karma scaring 'em!
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
40. The government under the BFEE is bought
and paid for. We are living in a fascist country right now.

This list has government appointees in this administration and everyone is a lobbyist or corporation who distributed large amounts of money to *'s campaign.

We have an administration who promotes hatred and arrogance. They ridicule and mock anybody who dares question or disagree with them. Journalists are terrified to ask questions for fear of the Helen Thomas treatment.

Our media is a spin machine. The propaganda has brainwashed most of the country so many are totally unaware of what the hell is happening. We had 50 different owners ten years ago, now we have six. Fox is not a news station but a branch of the government with 2 known criminals working there as journalists.

The RW fundamentalists have taken a beautiful religion and destroyed it by promoting killing, war, hatred and intolerance for others. It has been done in the name of God for political game, it is disgusting. There is no compassion for the sick, hungry or poor. They are racists, pure and simple. Gays are treated like a piece of shit. God help us.

Robert J. Kennedy, Jr. can't even promote his book on mainstream TV, he has called this a fascist country.

This administration has done more to polarize this country than any other. I have never witnessed an AWOL president shred another candidate's character by mocking their service and medals so openly. They continue to distort his bravery because he had the nerve to be truthful about the atrocities of war after coming home. Vietnam vets are now reliving a nightmare of pain and anguish because we have a president who will stop at nothing to win.

I am not feeling hopeful right now about the future unless we can all boycott corporations nationwide or something major. Rosa Parks changed history with a group of people refusing to ride a bus in Montgomery, Alabama but I don't think we can do that nationwide.

I can't believe this is the same country I grew up in. I am a liberal and am tired of being treated like a freak in my community. I guess I needed to vent.

I am so sick of Rush and his ilk preaching hatred nonstop. All of these things make people less caring and compassionate. It makes me so sad and afraid for my children and future grandchildren.

http://www.whitehouseforsale.org/documents/appoint0804....
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