Do Dean fans understand him?

[RedSox02]

First of all, I am an "anyone but Bush" guy so I pretty much don't have a favorite candidate right now. I like Kerry and would probably cast my vote for him but don't have anything against the other candidates. Basically this is not a bash-Dean post, I am just hear for an education.

My question is: While I am a big fan of Dean, I can't quite figure out his popularity. It seems alot of people rushed to his side because he spoke out so vocally against the Iraqi war, and many of these supporters are hardcore pacifists. However Dean is not a Pacifist. He has stated himself that he believes war is sometimes necessary, but he felt that the current war in Iraq was not necessary. Dean has such wildly enthusiastic support, I am just kind of curious what his appeal is to different people. (I find it funny that Conservatives and the news media seem to think he is some ultra-leftists just because he opposed the war). Do all of his supporters agree with most of his positions? To me he appears to be a no-nonsense guy, and I respect the fact that he passed the Civil Union law in Vermont and will not run and hide from groups like the religious right etc.

So to any Dean fans out there, what attracts you to him and what do you like best about him? Does it have anything to do with the fact that most of the other candidates flip-flopped on the war issue, and are only now starting to speak tough on Bush when it is time to pander for Democratic votes?

[mandyky]

1. He voiced liberals' anger at the Dem party

not just about the war, but by the majority of Dems in Congress.

Examples - tax cuts, war, no child left behind, more tax cuts...

[sangh0]

4. So you're a Sharpton fan?

Sharpton has been doing a much better job of voicing anger at the DNC and the DLC than Dean has. That might be because Sharpton has a lot more experience criticizing the Democcratic Party

[indigo32]

14. Sang0

I agree he's good at voicing alot of what needs to be said... but he will never overcome his image. Why should I consider him?

[Name removed]

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[JaneQPublic]

26. Has Sharpton ever held elective office before?

Sharpton is a great speaker and a real asset to the Democratic Party, but I believe a contender for the highest office in the land should have prior experience serving the public as an elected official.

In all fairness, it's also a strike against Clark.

[trogdor]

44. Thank you.

Although I would vote for a hamster over *, I would prefer somebody with at least SOME experience in public office.

[mandyky]

46. I am a Dean supporter

but I do enjoy sharpton's comments, but I was not talking about the DLC and the DNC alone. Even liberal Nancy Pelosi had the gall to say, once the war has started something to the effect - How come the people did not say anything to stop the war. Only a very few in congress opposed giving bush carte blanche for Iraq. Unfortunately, the 4 senators running for president voted for that, along with tax cuts.

[ComerPerro]

2. Here is what I like

He is a passionate and strong speaker. He carries a strong physical presence. When you watch and listen to him speak, you can feel his confidence.
Plus, he is saying things that I have been wanting to scream for over a year now.

[sangh0]

5. Another Sharpton fan?

.

[ComerPerro]

11. Hmm. Fan. Hmm

I like Al Sharpton. I respect him.

But do I back his campaign? No.

[TLM]

38. I am a fan of sharpton....

doesn't mean I think he is cut out to be president.


Aside from the fact that he is black and this nation is not ready for a black president, he has a very questionable past and not enough experiece in office.

Sharpton has no chance of winning at all.

Dean does.

[Demobrat]

6. Just about every time he opens his mouth

he says something I have wanted to scream for a year. That's what does it for me. I always feel this huge sense of relief when he speaks. Somebody's listening. Somebody gets it. And somebody's not afraid to speak for me. I wish there were more than one somebody, but there isn't. Only Dean. Abd like feeling a huge sense of relief. It feels a hell of a lot better than anything else I've felt since W stole it. It's like a drug. I want to feel that way some more.

[sangh0]

10. Dean is "the only one"?

What has Dean said that Sharpton has not?

[tjdee]

18. And Dennis Kucinich?

And for that matter, Wesley Clark?

Remember the anti-war rallies?

WHERE WAS HOWARD DEAN?

From this thread, I'm getting an impression I didn't have before, and I'm not entirely comfortable with the impression I'm getting.

[Demobrat]

31. I love Kucinich's stance on health care.

But I don't trust him on choice.

[TLM]

41. Where was Dean....

building the grass roots network that now has him in the lead.


And the thing is when Kucinich says something I've wanted to say... he does it in a way that is embarassing, like an angry shrill child. I find myself listening to Kucinich asking, "God do I sound like that when I rant?"

I hear Dean say the same thing and I say, "God, I hope I sound like that when I rant."

[ima_sinnic]

29. I like Sharpton a lot

but let's face it, he just isn't being taken seriously. For whatever reasons that I don't have the energy to explore, he is not going to win the nomination. He's not getting the bucks or the backing or the commitment of the voters. People like Dean because they like to back a winner. Same arguments with Kucinich. I do like Kucinich a lot also, but again I think he is seen as a "fringer." But both of their voices are so exceedingly important and appreciated!!

"Electability" is a quality that unfortunately is created by the voters and builds on itself. It's not some tangible, definable quality, it's a creation in the mass mind, imho. Person A sees Person B getting excited and giving money to a candidate and says to Person C, hey there's something going on here. If this election weren't so critical I would definitely back Sharpton or Kucinich over Dean. But the people seem to be saying (so far) they want Dean. Are you going to argue with all 300,000 of the people who have already signed on to his campaign? Better to go with the flow and support a winner.

I ESPECIALLY approve of Dean's lack of ties to any corporate cronies or wealthy interests. For that reason I don't trust Clark or Kerry at ALL. Yes, Kucinich and Sharpton appear "pure" that way also--but so far they're not really catching on.

In case this sounds like I am just following the crowd, please see the statement I wrote about Dean a long time ago (before he caught fire) at my web site:
http://www.leftweb.com/blatant_truth/hdean.htm

[Demobrat]

30. I don't take Sharpton seriously.

Sorry.

[TLM]

39. What has Dean said that Sharpton has not....

How about... "I swear to uphold the oath of office of governor"

[edward]

3. What is this "pacifism" stuff?

Real question: Do you know a lot of pacifists who support Dean?

[TLM]

42. Yes in fact i do.... however they do not support him

because they think he is also a pacifist.

THey like that he is also against the war, even if not for the same reason they are. However the pacifist I know that support DEan are also very interested in other issues like heath care and education.

[Classical_Liberal]

7. I am not a pacifist and I don't think most of those who opposed

the Iraq war were. Please note the lack of protesting over afghanistan. I think his supporters are "anti war monger", not antiwar.

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. He is like Howard Beale

He has been succesful in channeling the anger of Democrats. And he appears to be electable, something that the other 'angry' candidates aren't.

[Gigi]

9. Dean supporter

Dean is articulate,passionate and intelligent. He is head and shoulders above the other Dems but more importantly he makes Bush
look like the petty pretender he is.

I was against this war but perhaps I wouldn't be against all wars so
I cannot call myself an absolute pacifist.

There has never been a candidate that has stood for everything I like.
Clinton was in favor of the death penalty. That and NAFTA were two
areas where I differed with Clinton. It wasn't enough to turn away
my support.

I had a gut feeling about Clinton and I feel the same about Dean.
He just seems right.

[Bertrand]

12. He appeals to their emotions

much of the same criticism the Dems here have dished out to the Repubs. On the issues, he is conservative. He was in favour of raising the SS age until Kucinich called him out on it. His record in Vermont is that of cutting social spending in order to balance the budget. He has come out in favour of Massive Nation Building by proposing to increase the afghanistan troop limit by 300%. He is a conservative with liberal tendencies, which is appealing to Dems in todays climate because he stands up for himself and the Dem Party.

[dsc]

23. Spending increased by well over 40%

in the nineties in VT. You are either ignorant or lying.

[Bertrand]

47. Instead

of invective, perhaps you could tell me which inititives were actually led by Dean or rather by the VtSC (public school financing) or the left wing of the VtDP (Health Care). I do know of Dean leading the workfare charge and his greasing the palms of business, so lets remain civil. thanks.

[TLM]

43. More talking points....

"On the issues, he is conservative. He was in favour of raising the SS age until Kucinich called him out on it."

BULLSHIT! DEan said ONCE in an interview in 95 when asked how the budget would be balanced if a balanced budget amendment was passed, and he listed raising the SS age as one posibility. He later pointed out that clinton showed it wasn't necessary and said he wouldn't do it. When asked recently he said he might entertain the idea of raising the age to 67 or 68, but that he's raise the tax limit, or remove it, first.

To act like he wanted to raise the age and kucinich changed his position is a bold faced LIE.


"His record in Vermont is that of cutting social spending in order to balance the budget."

His record is of making social spending more effective in programs like success by six and his welfare reform that inclused health care and day care and job training.


" He has come out in favour of Massive Nation Building by proposing to increase the afghanistan troop limit by 300%."


With UN troops.

[Bertrand]

48. .

you forgot to mention that Dean said definitively that he wouldnt raise the limit after kucinich correctly pointed out his being in favour of raising SS various times in the past at the AFL-CIO debate.


As for Afghanistan, perhaps he could stop criticizing the president over the war if he's in favour of it through continuing it if he were elected. He agrees with nation building, and wants to increase it (and not only through multinational forces (liberia)

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Yes, his supporters understand him

It's the press and supporters of others who don't understand his campaign or supporters. Dean's position on Iraq isn't the basis for which people support him. The only real role his position on Iraq had was to get people to look at him. They looked and liked what they saw. Dean's supporters are not limited to liberals, that's utterly ridiculous. Dean has supporters from just about every corner of the political spectrum except for hardcore extremists and radicals. For instance...I didn't protest against the war, and although I share the same opinion on it as Dean...I was pretty Iraq-neutral.

Dean is the best all around candidate. He neutralizes the gun issue. He's fiscally responsible. He's delivered a healthcare program in Vermont so he has more traction on that issue, plus he's a doctor. He's the only one with any real balls. Instead of sitting on his ass and being a slave to public opinion polls, he went right out there and was a true leader when no one else dared to say a word. He said publicly what people have been saying in their circles...and people sat up and said "Finally! Someone who is willing to say what needs to be said!" And look what's begun to happen...ever since Dean started criticizing Bush, his favorability rating has been slipping. That's how it works, folks. If no one steps up to lead us out of the mess, who the hell is going to follow? Dean stepped up to bat and became that leader and that's why he has an army of fiercely loyal and devoted supporters.

[sendero]

40. exactly...

...>>> If no one steps up to lead us out of the mess, who the hell is going to follow? Dean stepped up to bat and became that leader and that's why he has an army of fiercely loyal and devoted supporters.

And the annointed ones who were in a position of power and *could* have done something sat on their thumbs. Now they cannot understand why so many are jumping to a new candidate. The fact that they *don't* understand is perfect testament to their ill ability to serve.

[onecitizen]

15. For me it was simple.........

he stood up and said what I wanted SOMEONE to say. I waited and waited for one of my guys to say something about what the turkey in the WH was doing and no one ever did. So then I see DEAN. I emailed him and he emailed me back. I liked what he said then and still do today. I've lost some faith in the Dems. They did nothing when we were crying out for leadership from the opposition party, our party. Everyone except Sen. Byrd and Gov. Dean. They were there when we needed them.

[tjdee]

17. And Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton.

Dennis Kucinich was at the big NYC rally against the war....

I'm amazed at this whole "he's the only one saying what I want to hear" thing I'm reading in this thread.

It seems to me like they only *heard* it when Dean said it. I don't know if this is because when Dean said it the media covered it, or what.

What I do know is that Dean WAS NOT the only person opening his mouth. He was not.

[salin]

21. Savvy people behind him

I think that Dean's early folks behind him were pretty savvy - and worked to create a bit of a media buzz... and thus his voice when raised was projected. I also think that the media played along because he was viewed as "safe" - remember the early projection was: Northeast liberal (subliminal: Dukakis), Small (pop) state (subliminal: McGovern), And passed the domestic partnership act in Vt (subliminal: no way the public would buy this).

I think that the media was mocking Sharpton from day one, and just didn't know who Kucinich was. And I think their early coverage was considered safe and their attempt at a tiny bit of "balance". But somehow - someone in the Dean campaign - got them to even think about Dean as one to project (even if the initial intent was to zero in on him in a exagerated way as they had tend to do with Gore).

Thus Dean - with some coverage - compared to very little coverage of others - was "heard".

Just my opinion from an observers seat on the sidelines.

[BurtWorm]

16. Why I think Dean has momentum

It did start with the war, and Dean's "cleanliness" on it--not to mention his willingness to criticize it and the other candidates who weren't so clean. Of course he may have been exploiting a situation, reading the anger out there among certain Dems over their sense of betrayal by their "leaders." And it fit in with his, perhaps, calculated image as a truth teller and renegade. But thank goodness someone running for the top job is criticizing the way the country went into the war--someone who has a chance to win, even.

I want to say that I am not a pacifist. I'm someone who believes that war is not something to be taken lightly, though.

[RedSox02]

22. Interesting responses

The reason I started this thread was because while I follow current events and political issues very closely, I still didn't have enough information to make a fair judgement on Dean. The more I hear about him though(not from the media), the more I like him. Not a full-fledged Dean supporter yet, but I think he is an outstanding candidate and it would certainly be easy to join his side if he takes the nomination.

The only two guys I am really hesitant on are

#1 Kucinich: (Spelling probably wrong). I love most of his stances (he is my sisters favorite candidate). However, I work in the military and he seemed to be hinting that he was looking to slash-and-cut the military budget. Not good for my job security.

#2 Sharpton. I respect him alot, and like him alot more now that I get to see him for myself and not just hear the horror stories from the right, but he has way too much baggage, i.e. Tawana Bradley.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

27. Slash and cut..

He wants to cut the Pentagon butdget by 15%. Not exactly slash and cut.

Cutting the BLOATED Pentagon budget by 15% will not hurt your career unless you consider your career building empires and invading countries based on lies.

The Pentagon budget only justifies itself with more war and more 'terra'. Did we need to invade Iraq? Hell no, Should we have? Hell NO.

That money is not what pays you. That is money that goes to bushie's friends and family in the 'Defense' industry.

TWL

[dsc]

32. Yes it is what pays him

Kucinich as not uttered anything about what would and wouldn't be cut. Personel costs are well over 60% of defense spending (I think more like 70%) that means he would have to be cutting everything else by over a third not to be cutting personel.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

35. Yes you are right..

Kucinich is going straight for the jobs and pay of the service persons!
EVIL! EVIL!!!! HE HATES PEOPLE! Just look at his record!

On the another note...

"that means he would have to be cutting everything else by over a third not to be cutting personel"

So where's the problem?

TWL

[dsc]

36. That he isn't specifying what he would cut

Which systems? Which bases? If personel which personel? This sounds very much like the cuts in waste, fraud, and abuse that Reagan always talked about but never did.

[dsc]

28. Yes at least this one does

First, we need to win and Dean can. He isn't the only one who can but he can. That is the minimal thing for me to support a candidate.

Second, our domestic situation is a mess. Dean is the longest serving governor in the nation with 12 years under his belt. He can and will fix our economy and our budget. If we don't do this and do it fast then SS will go the way of the horse and buggy. Governors win Presidential races.

Third, Dean was there for gays and lesbians in a way no one else was. Only in Vermont could I have a relationship with a guy recognized by my state. In addition he passed a civil rights bill, allowed same sex couples to adopt, appointed an openly gay male to the VT House, and gave domestic partners of state employees benefits (before he signed civil unions). Dean's record on gays and lesbians if both phenominal and consistent. Kucinich and Sharpton both have been inconsistent. Lieberman, Gephardt, Graham, and Edwards aren't as good. Kerry is tied. CMB is better but not able to win.

Fourth Dean's health care plan has been tried and works in VT. I want help now not something that will do what Clinton's plan did which is fail.

Fifth, Dean has campaigned brilliantly. He clearly knows what it takes to win and is doing it.

Sixth, He wants to repeal the entirety of the Bush tax cut. It needs to go and he said it and said it first.

I could go on but don't wish to take all day.

[Jacobin]

33. No. We don't have a clue...we are all deluded dimwits

We are all legally blonde.

We don't understand any of the issues and really don't know what the issues are to tell you the truth.

However, we support Dean and send him money and encourage others to do the same. We're not sure why. When we know we'll give you a ring.

/sarcasm

[StandWatie]

34. no, they don't

and that is probably a good thing, I wish to god I didn't know Dean's real record. He's the man who said that Bill Clinton learned triangulating from him. I may even vote for him in the primary but I think Kerry would have been the best bet if he would have had the sack to vote no on Iraq.

[TLM]

37. I think that is the BS line that a lot of dean bashers want you to buy

they want you to think that all these Dean supporters are just stupid asses who are all anti-war pacifists who were tricked into supporting Dean and only support him because they're too dumb to figure out that he is not a pacifast.


I do not know of even one Dean supporter who supports him because they think he is a pacifast. I know pacifasts who support him, AND they like the fact he is against this war, even if he is not against it for exactly the same reasons they are.

I am for Dean because of a lot of reasons.

First and foremost I like his positions on education. I like his positions on corporate reform. I love his ideas about prison reform. I like his position on the war and why it was wrong. I support his plans for health care and I like his ideas for focusing on infrastructure to create jobs, with a focus on alturnative fuel development. Most of all I like that he is not afraid to stand up to W and call the pink tutu dems on their rooling over and being afraid to be a real opposition party.

The few issues i disagree with Dean on are comparibly trivial and I do not disagree with him that much.

[killbotfactory]

45. I just support him because I want to be cool

And everyone else was doing it. I also like to throw money at candidates before researching anything about them under the impression that their views on all the issues mirror mine if they say anything I agree with.