Anyone ever sit down with an Arab and talk about Politics...

[Bread and Circus]

Seriously, I strongly recommend it.

One of my fellow colleagues is a Jordanian Muslim who declares himself an Arab Nationist. He's a very nice guy with great
skills as a pulmonary doc/intensivist. He and I are in our early
30's but we have very different backgrounds. I was
raised in a county that voted 70% plus for George Bush so you can
see what I mean.

I can't talk to other doctors around me as Fox News is ALWAYS on
in the doctors lounge and most of the doctors around here lap it
up like gospel. However, I had the chance to sit down today with
my Jordanian friend and shoot the breeze for about 2 hours.

We talked politics and culture.

He is a rare bird in that he is totally pro-Arab/pro-Muslim/extremely
distrustful of American Foreign Policy yet he seperates policy from
people and seems to take a great pleasure in providing excellent
medical care for a community that is rife w/ the staunchest of
Bush supporters.

With that said, I can say I learned a lot from him. His views/
knowlege base regarding foreign policy is very similar to DU'ers.
He's against terrorism and the slaughter of innocents (on both sides)
but he is acutely aware of the ill effects of our foreign policy
upon those in the Arab world.

He taught me alot about the inter-relationships of U.S. /Jordanian
Gov't/ Iraq/ and Kuwait. He also provided an interesting view that
the U.S. encouraged Kuwait to challenge Iraq by being aggressive
with shared oil fields in order to provoke Saddam to attack. This
would provide the rationale for us to go in (during Gulf War 1) and
attack Saddam and weaken him as his strength provided a great
deal of anxiety for Israel and U.S. oil interests. Basically, he
said we spent the 80's building him up to fight Iran but in '88
the Ayatollah of Iran called the war off, leaving Saddam unopposed.
We didn't like that, especially since he sat on all that oil and
was a stone's throw from Israel.

My take home message from the conversation is that people need to
seek and talk to people on the other side of the fence if we are
to make peace. Improvement in this situation will come from
conversation, listening, and understanding. Not bombs or bullets.
It is also probably likely to get worse before it gets better.

I did have a great pleasure in introducing him to PNAC as this guy
had never heard of it before. I was surprised as he seemed to know
a lot, I mean a lot, but didn't know about PNAC.

He was surprised in that a fuzzy faced
Midwesterner actually gave a shit about what mattered to him
(despite my rep on DU, I am a huge humanist). He was also surprised
that I knew that we funded Saddam, supplied him with the gas he
used on the Kurds, trained OBL, and that we have a mutual parasitic
relationship w/ the royal saud family.

The only disheartening thing is that I tried to challenge him to
understand the side of the Israelis (as I think the have a side
as well). It was hard to make him make any sort of an understanding
statement. He didn't reflect hatred toward Jews and he also supported
a two-state solution. Nonetheless, I could sense a bias against
Israel that he couldn't get past.

He seems to really like American and Americans, even defending us
to "folks back home" but he said since 9/11 and the Irar War that
people in the Arab world have really had a progressively negative
view of Americans.

He definitely thinks Bush sucks. He loved F9/11, though he said it
had some exagerations. He also state Democrats and Liberals were
more open minded (big surprise).

Anyway, I think people should get a chance to discuss as much as they
can with people of different backgrounds. It's very illuminating
and healing.

I wish there was more of this and less cruelty towards each other.

[Lucky Luciano]

1. Yes...

I have ahd similar experiences. A close friend of mine is a Palestinian that grew up as a refugee...he eventually moved to the US and started a successful construction business, so all is well with him now. When he was in college he was always hiding because he was an activist for the Palestinian cause and was on Israel's hit list. Of course, now that he is well to do, he is not an activist, but he of course, supports the Palestinian cause.

I was in Egypt in December and as it happens, I met some muslims there (surprise surprise). I generally avoided politics/religion, but sometimes it became unavoidable. Like your Jordanian friend, most of them like American people, the American drive to innovate, etc, but they despise b*sh and our foreign policy.

[cidliz2004]

2. Beautifully written and presented

I totally agree with what you said and what your friend said as well.
We do need to "LISTEN" to the other side and to realize that we are not the "good guys" in every single situation. The ME should not be made into a parking lot as so many have said. We, Americans, have "played" in that part of the world for too many years and caused too much bloodshed "though indirect". We enabled Sadam, and Osamma, then condemned them for doing what we a little more than a decade ago congratulated them for. It all depends on how it affects us, does it benefit us or not? When we benefit we turn a blind eye to mass murders and assassination. When it doesn't benefit us, we get up on the old soap box and amass support for some repressive action at best and violent action at the worst. While we turned a blind eye to the mass graves and murder in Iraq not more than a decade ago, we now use for an excuse to kill and maime thousands of innocent civilians to "bring freedom and democracy". It makes me sick.

Your "friend" is in the small group of people that "genuinely" understands the actual ways of our Government and the ME.

Too bad our "media" didn't air "conversations" like these for the American Public to watch and learn from. Not many may watch, but it would be nice to at least make the attempt to give them the chance to hear an honest discussion.

[Cleita]

3. Just a little word of advice. Turn off Fox anytime you can.

One way is to watch the money channel CNBC. Repukes don't object. There is a little newS but not a whole lot on CNBC and some of the talking heads are rather liberal when they do offer an opinion. JUST GET FOX OFF!

[cidliz2004]

4. You are pretty Sharp!

I like the way you think!

[Cleita]

13. I do it all the time.

Everytime I have to go to a waiting lounge especially in the hospital where my husband goes for tests, they always have FOX on. I always ask if I can watch the DOW for a bit. No one objects and then I just leave it on. Works like a charm.

[kwolf68]

5. Yes

A guy from Iran...worked on my car. Hates Bush.

[riverwalker]

6. In October 1996

I was in Jerusalem on a group tour with a bunch of fundie loonies (long story, I went to please a friend). Anyway, to get away from them, I spent the day just walking around alone. The day before they toured the "tunnel" which was the site of a riot the month before, where 70 people were killed, and I refused to visit their newest tourist attraction still stained with blood. I ended up in East Jerusalem in a shop I visited before. The Palestinian man remembered me, and asked where the rest of the group was. "Sit, sit!" He sent a little kid running for coffee, in those little cups, and we sat and talked. I told him about my impressions of this troubled land, the tunnel "incident" and we discussed the upcoming American Presidential race. He was so very curious about who would be best for peace. Clinton or Dole? Again and again, he really wanted to know. He talked about the children and their future, and tears started to fall. The children, what about their future? The children. The children. Next day, I was touring a church, and a young Palestinian boy about 9 was selling postcards. He was so darn cute and persistant, with a smile to melt your heart. I touched his face and he smiled at me, and asked "are you a mother?". I always wondered what happened to him since that day. I am afraid to know.
To this very day, those words echo like a challenge: Are you a mother? Are you a mother? Do you care?
And as the bombs fall in Bagdad....and Fallujah....are you a mother?

[Disturbed]

18. A correction.

"the gas he used on the Kurds"

I am not a fan of Saddam but the above has never been proven.

Saying it a thousand times doesn't make it true.

[Nordic]

7. now if only the republicans would talk with the democrats

rather than shouting their talking points at them

[unslinkychild1]

8. Yes, "virtually"

In an Iraqi chat room, for over 2 yrs now. Mostly younger people, but surprisingly well educated in world events (surprising to ME at least, because I expected them to be dumbshits like most amerikkkans). Lots of hostility toward US policy, not much directed at ME personally until the war started, and then that jacked up quite a bit, and then they were all offline for several months because the Baghdad exchange had been bombed.

I was sort of shocked by TWO things:

1. None of the Iraqis IN Iraq believed they were going to go to war until like three days beforehand.

2. Most of the exiles that lived here and in Canada had drunk the Fox kool-aid and thought this war was a GOOD thing and supported Bush.

Now, my online friend who didn't believe there would be war wants OUT. She is an unfortunate case--of Armenian descent, she is a Christian, born in Lebanon, moved to Iraq to escape the war in Lebanon--because Iraq was STABLE back then, and not too repressive.

She is 28 years old and has lived through Lebanese war, Iraq/Iran, GWI, various bombings later, AND now this war. She says this is the absolute worst. She has blond hair and green eyes and says she just won a Fullbright scholarship to USA (I think she's being scammed, but she IS smart enough for it.) She and all her family speak Armenian, Arabic, and nearly flawless English. Her dad HAD a great business (selling air-conditioning units), but who knows how it's doing now.

After the war, she had to drop out of Baghdad University, and worked a bit for the S. Korean Embassy, but had to quit. Her sister's car got blown up in Baghdad back in May or so, and now these two charming women wear the hijab and don't leave the house. These two CHRISTIAN women who had never seen the need to wear hijab before. I have not heard from them for a couple of months.

On the plus side, she has a great sense of humor and says "the looting was great." She has written me letters and called me on the phone. The weird thing is, she has never received MY letters, and, for some odd reason, I cannot call over there--it's not allowed.

Also, as per "not allowed," I was also unable to respond to an e-mail from a guy in Palestine. I don't remember the exact error code, but it was also something to the effect of "prohibited area" or some such nonsense.

As for the chat room, I mostly don't go there anymore--I get a lot of abuse now, or else they all go squiggly on me (write in Arabic), which they always tended to do when they're pissed.

[Just Me]

9. Unfortunately, the "pain" of an American populace in denial,...

,...is being exploited.

It is a sad state to observe.

I find it,...well,...beyond descriptive terms of my observations and emotions,...to watch a people, earnest at heart, being deceived and manipulated by those who they have entrusted their voice.

[LunaC]

10. I spoke with an Iranian young man

at the start of the war. He said there aren't any opportunies for young men in his country and 13-yr. old boys have no other plans but to join the military/resistance. He said he was fortunate to be "sponsored" in the U.S. so he could come here to get an education and escape the dismal and hopeless future he would have otherwise faced.

And the Bush* Admin wonders where all the "Insurgents" are coming from!

[stavka]

11. Being from SE michigan. I need to confirm the thought in this <kick>

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

12. I did once

It was in a bar of all places. The guy said he was a devout Muslim but he was totally shitfaced.

[kcwayne]

14. I had a roommate in college who was a Palestinian raised in Kuwait

I met several of his friends and we socialized quite often. They were very warm and thoughtful people. There were many topics of conversation on which you could have interesting exchanges. But women and Israel were two topics that you would think you were talking to a complete barbarian.

They viewed women as something akin to a dog, and believed the most outlandish and ridiculous things about Jews in general and Israelis in particular. Talking to them about these topics was worse than talking to any redneck or freeper type that I have ever met in my life, and I have met some real "winners". Their minds click off, and all they do is spout propaganda, hate, and misogyny.

[Bread and Circus]

15. This dude is in the US right now, just to help his wife get through

an opthalmology fellowship.

He didn't seem like a mysogynist to me but we didn't delve into that too deeply as I am aware this could have been an issue.

[kcwayne]

19. I would never claim that all Arabs are like these guys

because anybody can evolve beyond or below their culture. But from what I have learned about Arab societies over the last 30 years, they were very representative of the type of thinking (or lack of in my opinion) that results in women having significantly fewer rights or voices in their public and private lives, and in the sort of blind hatred that suggests that there will never be peace in the Middle East.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

16. Hey familydoctor, nice post and excellent thread. I too am a doc,

in a part of the country where the docs like to have FOX news on all the time in the lounges and "lap it up" (Texas), so I can relate (not sure where you are).

It's really frustrating to me, because I find it maddening for "educated" people like physicians to buy into the simplistic and destructive worldview of the administration, but I see it as a manifestation of 2 things:

-1 Greed, the docs have good income and benefit from the tax cuts
-2 Being mostly raised in TX the docs here are "branded" into the Repub party. Repub = good Dem = bad.
-3: 1 reinforces 2.

Even though most have cheerleaded for the Iraq war, I don't know of a one who has sent their own flesh and blood into it. I know one or two whose grown stepchildren have gone, and certainly a number of the nonrich nurses and techs have either been sent themselves (reserves) or had their children go fight.

Mostly people like to sport little American flags from their SUVs. Some even have 2, one on each side. And Bush/Cheney/W stickers.

I guess a lot of docs are educated in terms of science and medicine, but have little interest in culture or news beyond that and their stock portfolio. Unfortunately this is not only true in TX but I found to be true of many private practice docs in CA when I was practicing there too.

There's a lot of Middle Eastern docs around here. I should get to know some of them better and engage them in conversations like you had.

[Bozita]

17. Bullseye! -- My best friend, a now deceased first gen Lebanese-American,

... held those same beliefs. And I mean the SAME.

Special vitriol was reserved for AIPAC.

Reading your post was, for me, a trip down memory lane.

Thanks.

[Toots]

20. I have with two separate people and Religion was NEVER

brought up as an issue. It is all about Land and Power. About a few owning everything and about the influence of foreign countries like the US in their internal affairs. Not once was Religion brought up about anything. Water is a HUGE issue. Desalination plants are a huge topic.

[UNION.JACK]

21. Never the twain shall meet.

>The only disheartening thing is that I tried to challenge him to
>understand the side of the Israelis (as I think the have a side
>as well). It was hard to make him make any sort of an understanding
>statement. He didn't reflect hatred toward Jews and he also supported
>a two-state solution. Nonetheless, I could sense a bias against
>Israel that he couldn't get past.

Surely that says it all?