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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:14 PM
Original message
MSNBC: How long will the world's oil last?
Nothing new here, but it is nice to see peak oil hitting the news again.


How long will the world's oil last?

When the modern oil industry was born 145 years ago in Titusville, Pa., few people worried about just how long petroleum would keep flowing out of the ground. But since production peaked in the United States in 1970, a growing number of geologists, economists and industry analysts have been pondering the question of just how long worldwide supplies will keep up with growing demand. And some are predicting that global production may peak as soon as next year.

<snip>

This year, global demand for oil — currently at more than 80 million barrels per day and climbing — has come closer than ever to exceeding the world’s known production capacity. Disruptions in oil supply — due to wars or market forces like OPEC embargoes — are nothing new. But with producers pumping as fast as they can, there is little cushion for temporary supply interruptions or heightened demand from industrializing countries like China and India.

“We really are close enough to the edge to have no excess capacity. Demand growth shows no sign of slowing and now it seems to be accelerating,” said Matt Simmons, a Houston-based investment banker. “It’s really important to know what the real story is — as bad as it may be.”

<snip>

“The presidential candidates aren’t going to stand up and say ‘I’ve got bad news.” said Deffeyes. “They don’t want to promise you blood, sweat and tears. So it’s not being debated as an issue on the presidential campaign.”

<snip>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5945678/
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. it's about time it is, and Kerry should be out front about it
it is time to tell the truth to the American public, if not now? when?
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why, when it's a big stinky festering crisis, that's when!
Heaven knows, you're not going to get to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue by asking people to plan ahead, think about the long-term future and accept the idea that there might be limits to how much stuff they can own and how many miles per year they can drive.

I mean, that's . . . that's . . . it's UNAMERICAN.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Here's your answer.
From the same MSNBC article:

But with a surge to record oil prices in recent weeks and gasoline consistently selling in the $2 a gallon range for most of the summer, energy issues have played a surprisingly low profile in the presidential campaign. The reason, experts say, are clear: There are no simple solutions.

The presidential candidates aren’t going to stand up and say ‘I’ve got bad news.” said Deffeyes. “They don’t want to promise you blood, sweat and tears. So it’s not being debated as an issue on the presidential campaign.”
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. this is a subject no one wants to deal with
because this country has to go through a major and extremely unpleasant lifestyle change, or should I say, way of life. Just about everyone is in denial about it. No one has been able to come up with a real alternative, Conservation , solar, etc., work to a point , but combined they cannot replace oil. A world-wide depression, I think, will result as the prices keep accelerating. I wish it was illegal to sell a car in this country unless it gets about 30mpg. No more SUVs:illegal.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's not like it's going to dissapear all at once.
The cost of extracting a given volume of oil/gas will keep increasing as easy access to vast gas and oilfields decrease. I'd imagine that the end of the Age of Hydrocarbon combustion will be more gradual than you might think. Just a guess.

Gyre
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. have you read hubbert's curve analysis
once the production peak is hit, expect a very fast increase in oil prices. Watch out for a depression. WHat gets me is there are some steps we all could be taking now, like driving for the best mileage, no SUV's or other gas guzzlers. But boy, we like our cars in America and we like a lot of power.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Here's another theory on "peak oil"...
It's a claim that the Russians have discovered a method to harvesting a nearly inexhaustable supply of crude by very deep drilling.

The theory claims that only western capitalism is creating "peak oil" for the purpose of price control....Just a theory.

http://joevialls.altermedia.info/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html



excerpt:
The theory underlying how oil is formed at such enormous depths in the mantle of the earth is not central to this report, because the Russians have already proved its point of origin in absolute drilling terms more than 300 times. Those interested in the exact process should research the archives, where there are more than two hundred Russian papers on the subject. Probably a good place to start would be "The Role of Methane in the Formation of Mineral Fuels", written by by A.D. Bondar in 1967. What is central to this report is the massive advantage that Russia's ultra-deep drilling discoveries and technical achievements give it over the western nations.

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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The Russian theory of abiotic oil is a load of poop
And even if it were true: It still comes down to supply vs demand. How much you can get in a day, versus how much the world wants to burn in a day.

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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I found some links to better answer this
Edited on Thu Sep-09-04 09:11 PM by htuttle
I should probably provide more information than "it's a load of poop" (though it still is. :) )

Here's a thorough article that explains both sides of the debate in the petroleum industry:
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm

Here's a forum thread that quotes another post from Dr. John Clark, an Australian geologist, that has a good summary (or debunking) going point by point:
http://peakoil.com/fortopic844.html

But as another reply to that thread nicely sums up:
"If you believe in abiotic energy sources, then please explain the existence of coal"
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hahaha...i would have accepted "Load of poop"
I'd never put anything past corporate greed though.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Oil is not the only resource we have to be concerned about.
Edited on Thu Sep-09-04 10:15 PM by JohnyCanuck
Should we find tomorrow an inexhaustible new supply of oil that would feed all the world's forecasted energy needs far into the future, we're still going to find ourselves with other factors that will likely put a halt to the wasteful, energy hungry, consumer driven North American lifestyle we have all come to know and love and which the rest of the world seems to be doing it's best to emulate. There's a couple more resources even more fundamental to our survival than oil, and that's good agricultural land (topsoil) and water. Should we suddenly find an unlimited supply of new energy available to us, it's quite likely we'd just use that energy to further exploit the rest of the world's finite resources into depletion at an even more rapid rate than we're doing already.

See for example the article by Dale Pfeiffer, Eating Fossil Fuels. He makes the point that thanks to the energy intensive Green Revolution over the last 40 years the world has been able to massively increase crop yields by massively increasing energy inputs. However that increase in crop yields has also come at the cost of degrading topsoil and water resources and as we are now also confronted with increasing urban sprawl we are in danger of running out of good quality agricultural land and water more quickly than we might think.

Should the early onset of Peak Oil be valid (as Pfeiffer believes), it's fairly clear we will face a crisis in agriculture as our current factory farming, industrial approach to agriculture is heavily dependent on inputs from oil and other hydrocarbons to sustain its productivity in the face of the continuous loss of fertility in our soils. Even as the world's population is increasing rapidly we have already reached the point of marginal returns where addition inputs of energy do not produce corresponding increases in crop production. However, even if we have cheap energy freely available, we are using up our topsoil and underground aquifers at such an alarming rate we will likely face a crisis anyway when we can no longer grow the food we need to support the world's population. And that could happen within the next 50 years.

Eating Fossil Fuels

by Dale Allen Pfeiffer

© Copyright 2004, From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted, distributed or posted on an Internet web site for non-profit purposes only.

<snip>

Modern intensive agriculture is unsustainable. Technologically-enhanced agriculture has augmented soil erosion, polluted and overdrawn groundwater and surface water, and even (largely due to increased pesticide use) caused serious public health and environmental problems. Soil erosion, overtaxed cropland and water resource overdraft in turn lead to even greater use of fossil fuels and hydrocarbon products. More hydrocarbon-based fertilizers must be applied, along with more pesticides; irrigation water requires more energy to pump; and fossil fuels are used to process polluted water.

It takes 500 years to replace 1 inch of topsoil.21 In a natural environment, topsoil is built up by decaying plant matter and weathering rock, and it is protected from erosion by growing plants. In soil made susceptible by agriculture, erosion is reducing productivity up to 65% each year.22 Former prairie lands, which constitute the bread basket of the United States, have lost one half of their topsoil after farming for about 100 years. This soil is eroding 30 times faster than the natural formation rate.23 Food crops are much hungrier than the natural grasses that once covered the Great Plains. As a result, the remaining topsoil is increasingly depleted of nutrients. Soil erosion and mineral depletion removes about $20 billion worth of plant nutrients from U.S. agricultural soils every year.24 Much of the soil in the Great Plains is little more than a sponge into which we must pour hydrocarbon-based fertilizers in order to produce crops.

Every year in the U.S., more than 2 million acres of cropland are lost to erosion, salinization and water logging. On top of this, urbanization, road building, and industry claim another 1 million acres annually from farmland.24 Approximately three-quarters of the land area in the United States is devoted to agriculture and commercial forestry.25 The expanding human population is putting increasing pressure on land availability. Incidentally, only a small portion of U.S. land area remains available for the solar energy technologies necessary to support a solar energy-based economy. The land area for harvesting biomass is likewise limited. For this reason, the development of solar energy or biomass must be at the expense of agriculture.

Modern agriculture also places a strain on our water resources. Agriculture consumes fully 85% of all U.S. freshwater resources.26 Overdraft is occurring from many surface water resources, especially in the west and south. The typical example is the Colorado River, which is diverted to a trickle by the time it reaches the Pacific. Yet surface water only supplies 60% of the water used in irrigation. The remainder, and in some places the majority of water for irrigation, comes from ground water aquifers. Ground water is recharged slowly by the percolation of rainwater through the earth's crust. Less than 0.1% of the stored ground water mined annually is replaced by rainfall.27 The great Ogallala aquifer that supplies agriculture, industry and home use in much of the southern and central plains states has an annual overdraft up to 160% above its recharge rate. The Ogallala aquifer will become unproductive in a matter of decades.28

We can illustrate the demand that modern agriculture places on water resources by looking at a farmland producing corn. A corn crop that produces 118 bushels/acre/year requires more than 500,000 gallons/acre of water during the growing season. The production of 1 pound of maize requires 1,400 pounds (or 175 gallons) of water.29 Unless something is done to lower these consumption rates, modern agriculture will help to propel the United States into a water crisis.

<snip>

Our prosperity is built on the principal of exhausting the world's resources as quickly as possible, without any thought to our neighbors, all the other life on this planet, or our children. (my emphasis /jc)

Population & Sustainability

Considering a growth rate of 1.1% per year, the U.S. population is projected to double by 2050. As the population expands, an estimated one acre of land will be lost for every person added to the U.S. population. Currently, there are 1.8 acres of farmland available to grow food for each U.S. citizen. By 2050, this will decrease to 0.6 acres. 1.2 acres per person is required in order to maintain current dietary standards.40

Presently, only two nations on the planet are major exporters of grain: the United States and Canada.41 By 2025, it is expected that the U.S. will cease to be a food exporter due to domestic demand. The impact on the U.S. economy could be devastating, as food exports earn $40 billion for the U.S. annually. More importantly, millions of people around the world could starve to death without U.S. food exports.42


www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html

Note to mods. Quoted more than the standard 4 paragraphs because the author gives permission to reproduce article for non-profit purposes.





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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this "theory" is bullshit
Know what you get when you've hit oil and just keep on drilling deeper? Natural gas! Know what you get when you reach the natural gas level and just keep on drilling deeper? NOTHING!!!

Why? Simple - it's too hot and the pressure's too high. That's why you find natural gas below oil deposits - the long hydrocarbon chains known as "oil" can't form when heat and pressure are too intense lower down in the Earth's crust. And if you keep going below the gas layers, it's too hot and pressurized for even relatively small molecules of methane to hold together.

This ain't rocket science. This ain't even frickin' freshman geology material here, folks.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. And we found oil because we ran out of whale oil.
So we were already running out of "things". And since then, we've doubled, and doubled in population.

Here is my thought. The way we are going, running out of oil would be a blessing. Not really, though. Since we are dependent, it would be a disaster. We would have been so much smarter to develop alternates, and use the remaining oil for things other than combustion. Every thing we create, uses oil. Just about. From medical to entertainment. When we run out of oil, not being able to drive will be the least of our problems.

Now one more thing- let's take a look ahead. At water. We can live without oil. But not without water. Between modern farming techniques, and population, water tables have decreased in size and quality.

In a way, I want it to happen sooner rather than later. Look at the arrogance that we have, in a world where life is so easy. Just one day without oil, and neighbors would be friends again. We would not have time to waste on mentally defficient fratboys with too much power.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. This article does not mention that it will take more and more energy
to bring up oil and gas in hard to reach deposits. That means that the energy returned on energy invested (EROEI), will decrease. Once it takes more energy to get a barrel up and refined than can be gained when the barrel is consumed, then little oil will probably only be pumped for transport uses. I have never read any report that any economist acknowledges this problem.

Also, a much greater proportion of the oil or oil-like substances (tar sands, etc.) is very heavy and/or high in sulfur. Heavy oil is difficult to refine into gasoline and diesel--I believe that it involves cracking the long hydrocarbon chains and inserting more hydrogen. A lot of the additional Saudi oil is heavy, and most world refineries cannot handle it. High sulfur oil is also hard to refine and handle, even without removing all the sulfur, which is what will eventually be required. I believe that quite a bit of the Caspian oil is high sulfur.
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