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Must-read background on Russia's genocide of Chechens (& US complicity)

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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:32 AM
Original message
Must-read background on Russia's genocide of Chechens (& US complicity)
http://bigeye.com/103102.htm


Chechen, a Muslim people of the Caucasus Mountains, have fiercely battled Russian occupation for 300 years. In hidden genocide during the 1940's, Stalin had thousands of Chechen shot and 500,000 (half the population) sent in cattle cars to frigid Central Asian concentration camps, where 25% died.

Survivors of Stalin's gulag filtered back to Chechnya in the 1960's. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Chechen, led by Gen. Jhokar Dudayev, declared independence. While Moscow allowed other republics independence, Chechen were denied freedom because of important oil pipelines that ran through their territory and Kremlin fears other Muslim peoples of the Caucasus would seek independence.

In 1994, Boris Yeltsin ordered an invasion of breakaway Chechnya. Much of the cost of the war was financed by the United States, which sought to support Yeltsin against his domestic political enemies. President Bill Clinton even called Yeltsin `Russia's Abraham Lincoln.' In a near military miracle, lightly-armed Chechen fighters defeated and drove out the Russian army, but at appalling cost. Russia razed the Chechen capital, Grozny, and killed an estimated 100,000 civilians. President Dudayev was assassinated by the Russians, thanks to secret electronic equipment supplied KGB by the US.

In 1996, Russia granted Chechnya de facto recognition and promised a referendum within five years to decide its future. Chechnya seemed free. But in 1999, in an eerie harbinger of the 9/11 attacks on the US, a series of mysterious explosions destroyed apartment buildings in Russia, killing 300 people. Then prime minister Vladimir Putin, a former KGB officer, blamed `Islamic terrorist' Chechen `linked to bin Laden.' Russia was swept by nationalist fury and anti-Chechen hatred.
--Eric Margolis
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well that explains it all
Those poor freedom fighters should not be blamed for their actions, they could not help themselves. Kind of like the dali llama and his crew of merry men, I am not surprised that they attacked a school full of kids. Oh wait. Anyway....

So we have people who have been hurt and want others to feel the same pain they have felt, and they want change. I can understand that ideal, been there myself a few times in my life. But even I draw a line somewhere, and regardless of the evil done to them they went way over a decent line. And how did it help their cause? Looks like it will have the opposite effect.

Being a victim can get you somewhere, being the asshole who kills little kids will get you where you belong - dead. War and hatred breed like bunnies in carrot colored bedroom. There is no excuse for some actions people engage in, and none can be found here.

On the other hand, there is a hint that this was not them at all but someone who hated them and wanted others to join the hate. Such a thing is worth investigating, being set up can have dire consequences (ala burkett in the fictional illuminati book). We owe it to all involved to show reasonably and without a doubt who the perps were (and I don't think any russian would do this for putin so that they could get other russians to join in their war...).
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Assuming Chechnyans had anything to do with it
Which is a major assumption, seeing as everything in Russia is blamed on them, proof or not.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. one thing wrong with your argument...
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 12:56 AM by blitzen
the Chechens are not just claiming "victimage" in some wimpy, metaphorical sense.....They are and continue to be victims of a real genocide that has reduced the population almost by one half (over 500,000). Sorry, but anything goes.

As for your claim that this atrocity will have the "opposite effect" from the intended aim...well, maybe not:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename...

The heat will be on Putin to justify the continued genocide of Chechens
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Which is how the right sees our wars
Sorry, but anything goes.

The right sees the same for those who attacked us on 9/11, including Iraq. Kill the people, the wedding parties, etc and so on. They brought it on themselves and deserve the death we bring em.

I understand the hatred and anger they feel, and if I were them I would probably want to kill some russian ass myself. But even in the cold war days when I saw the soviets (well the government, i always liked the avg russian) as an evil force bent on world domination I did not want us to storm their schools and terrorize little kids.

Some things are wrong always.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. if "anything goes" for the Russians...
such as GENOCIDE....

then why should we focus our outrage on the Chechens?


What if this event turns the tide and ends the Russian-Chechen war? Would it then be justified in the way that many Americans justify Hiroshima? If we killed a hundred thousand Japanese children to end WWII, can we blame Chechens for killing several hundreds?

I personally think both of these events (Hiroshima and the Russian school tragedy) were unspeakable atrocities. But both were events of WAR, not "terrorism."
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Chechens
My outrage is not focused on the whole people, but on those who did the acts. Terrorism seeks to sway the people by making them suffer and not those who did the wrong to suffer. These people attacked folks who had nothing to do with their plight, that is not war. The enemy is the government, those who give the orders and those who carry them out (the soldiers).

They want to influence people by killing their kids, hoping they will what 'elect someone else'? If osama attacks us again, should we start killing muslims here in the US because we can't get to him, should we make innocents suffer because we have?

I don't think this will turn the tide, it will only deepen the hate people already feel towards each other and more people will want revenge. There is a difference between hiroshima and this as well - we had a bomb that they had no hope of stopping, they saw we could destroy their entire country. Here the russians believe that the chechens are just another people, someone they can fight - the japanese could not fight a bomb.

Killing someone's kids is wrong, period. It will only grow the hatred. I can grasp wanting to kill someone, been there. But hurting someone innocent like a kid to teach someone else a lesson is cowardice. If they believe in their cause enough to die for it fucking ride to moscow and try to knock off putin. Either way you die but at least one way you show you have some damn courage.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. they have been "bringing it on" right to Moscow...
the two planes they blew up last week...

the theatre hostage tragedy last year...

lots of passenger trains blown up....


It's an ugly, ugly carnage with lots of blame on both sides....but MOST blame on Russia for starting and perpetuating the whole thing
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Moscow
Bringing it on to the innocent people who are not behind their plight. Bring it on to the military and the government. Would be like me killing kids at school here because I want to US to do more to pressure the russians to leave the chechens alone. Hell for that matter, if you have a kid you could kill them on tape and mail that out and say that you did it to hopefully someday save the lives of chechens. It would probably accomplish just as much....
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. but, to complete your analogy....
it would be like you killing 10 kids at school after the US had killed 5000 of your kids. If you're a Chechen, and Russia is not limiting itself to killing "the military and the government" of Chechnya, what should you do?

Read some of this on "Chechen Revenge":
http://bigeye.com/FCArchive.htm
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. You should not become the monster you hate
to become what you hate and fear is to truly lose. When they make you into what they are, you are no longer free, you are a clone of the machine that made you.

Revenge against a person who has done you wrong is one thing, revenge against a group from which the one who wronged you is no better than what was done to you in the first place - ie, you were attacked and you did nothing wrong, so you attack someone else who has done nothing wrong.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. what you say is good as an "ideal"....
but these Chechens are involved in a horror that none of us can imagine, and maybe the ideals of universal human rights and morality don't mean much to them--since they've seen Russia's version of those things.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I agree with your argument here
If Russia has shown itself to care nothing about the lives of Chechens, by committing genocide (indeed - "anything goes") and other atrocities, then this act of terrorism is an understandable recourse.

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I don't doubt
That the mental state of people subject to such things can lead them to do things which they otherwise would not do. I cannot fathom though, even if something were to happen to my daughter, going out and killing the kids of someone else and trying to rationalize it.

I can understand freedom fighters, vengance fighters, and the like. And their ideals of human rights might be screwed as they have been, but even then I could not endorse killing innocents. To look a child in the face and stab them accomplishes nothing, makes you inhuman, and frankly I see no reason why I would want to step in and help such a group of people who see this as a good method to get attention to their plight.

Had they taken them hostage, and then promised the release of all for national TV coverage only, and then killed themselves for their cause live on tv, then I might have seen them as truly caring about their cause - but they chose to kill others, kids, who never did a damn thing to them.

They are just plain dumb. No one is having sympathy for them, now more people hate them (rightly or wrongly), and russians may well adopt the same ideas (those who did not hold such ideals before) - they killed our kids in school, now we will do the same.

Violence of this nature breeds more of the same. How long they been fighting and killing each other? If suicide missions and killing innocents worked than I think right now the world be at peace. But I don't see it working, has not worked, and won't. Hate breeds hate, even when you can morally justify torturing and murdering little kids it will do nothing good but make more hate.

The deed is done. And I am still not seeing any peace.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I agree that "I" or "We" could not do this....
i guess that just indicates how far apart our lives are from theirs. And a lot of these "terrorists" are women and moms. Probably because their men have been "disappeared."
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Exactly. I don't think we are in a position to judge.
Unless our loved ones have been murdered during a senseless war, how can we judge?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. I can judge
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 03:24 PM by Cheswick
I would not do what these terrorists did. I could not kill other people's children to avenge my own.
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peach720 Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
49. Well you don't achieve anything by murdering and terrorising
small children. Many of whom were too young to be know where Chechnya is, let along the history of Russia's genocide of its people.
All these terrorists have achieved is whole wide hatred and disgust for what they have done. Many people have some sympathy with Chechnya but that one act of hatred on innocents,is achieve nothing but contempt and horror.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
61. have they declared war on Russia?
?
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. One half?
Does that count the genocide against the Russian minority in Chechnya or was this not included in the kavkaz.org talking points?

Far be it from me to defend Putin's regime, but the gullibility of a good number of people here is astounding. At least make an attempt to learn about what Chechnya was like during the bright independent years of '90-94 and '96-99 before falling for this defenseless victim bullshit. Read about the kidnappings, the displacement of the non-Chechen population, the lawlessness, corruption and religious fundamentalism. Then maybe you will not come out looking like uninformed assholes with a knee-jerk penchant for defending every vile piece of shit from "the Man."
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. you shot your credibilty when you mimicked the stalinist talking point
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 03:28 AM by blitzen
about chechen collaboration with Nazis...


see links in post #34 below....


yeah, i know, it's just Chechen propaganda. So how do we judge between Stalinist propaganda and Chechen propaganda?

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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. self-delete
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 03:28 AM by blitzen
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. I'm sorry...
...but I have a hard time accepting credibility lessons from someone parroting kavkaz.org's line about the Chechens' valliant struggle for national liberation.

Russian war crimes in Chechnya are well documented, as is the first war's origin in Grachev and Yeltsin's unwillingness to accomodate Dudayev's criminal activities without taking a larger piece of the action. However, I fail to see how any of it can justify atrocities against civilians in any but the most depraved binary mind.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Putin did a MIHOP on those apartment blasts
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. I remember the BBC straight out saying so.
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 01:37 AM by ezmojason
But that was before the soul looking and the BBC got
neutered by the anti-freepress Blair forces.

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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Forcing children to drink their urine to survive=freedom fighters?
Killing teachers and mothers to make a point? Sure...I understand. The only proper response to violence is to return that violence against innocent civilians, particularly children. Its fucking insanity and its evil and no amount of historical justification will change the truth.

May God forgive them for their crimes against humanity because I won't.

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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. is the "historical" not real?
the 500,000 plus Chechens slaughtered by Russia are not just a part of "history"--memories of them are the reality underlying the present carnage. I'm only saying that our outrage against the school tragedy should lead as well to outrage against Russia's genocide.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Exactly.
The historical IS real.
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peach720 Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
50. I think many people across the world has condemned the
actions of the Russian's against the Chechens. However that sympathy has been diminshed by their actions. They have shown a total lack of basic humanity is targetting children. It is true the children die in wars and bombings, but they are not usually taken as hostages, starved, dehydrated and murdered as a method of terrorism.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
52. I am not going to support the Chechens in their methods.
Nor will I even endorse the idea that there even should be an idependent Chechnya. Not every single ethnic group in the world is entitled to its own country.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
64. Why should it lead us anywhere?
Why should we not think this is a complicated issue, more complicated than you would like us to believe? Why should we not stop at concluding that there terrorists are scum with no justification for what they have done.
They may have been the worlds most innept terrorists (they weren't swift in the theater incident either), but terrorists never the less.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. FUCK Terrorists!
Terrorism negates ANY moral authority.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. And where were you all when
Russia murdered Chechnyan children?
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. why stalin only deport half?
without taking sides here, i have a historical question:

If one were stalin and bent on wiping out a people and the culture, would not one deport ALL of them to remote areas? Why only half?

Applying a scifi mind to the problem, one would deport all to many different areas, small fragments of the population to each. One would ban having kids.
Then, the culture would soon vanish. {any kids which did appear, could be deported and adopted by those of other cultures, ...and their origin never revealed}.

Again, this is not something i am advocating, just showing that stalin was highly ineffective... and that anyone could come up with a more effecive plan in moments.

So why did stalin do things that ineffective way? I am genuinely puzzled, not trying to imply anything.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Why did hitler do what he did
He could have deported the jews, given them israel back (took it over and sent them all there), and solved his problems while appearing to be a good guy. Instead, he was a dumb ass. He killed millions and gained nothing.

Why does anyone do the dumb things they do? Probably because their hatred clouds their thinking.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
59. Hitler would have taken Israel
if he could have. He was stopped by El Alamein, the British fleet defeating the Italian fleet and Stalingrad. The long range plan was there to take the Middle East. The power wasn't enough.

Hitler did talk before the war about taking Madagascar and putting all the world's jews there. Again, not possible without a navy, if it was ever more than just a passing thought.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. i don't really know....but
maybe he got rid of the "resistant" half and left the "docile" half for cheap labor?
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. he deported them all...
including heroes from the army, and not only Chechens but most of the N.Cauc. nations.

it's just that around half died from the deporation.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. Chechens collaborated with the nazis
And this is why Stalin deported them. Of course, you won't hear this from the terrorist apologists who've decended upon this site from kavkaz.org lately.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. so, Stalin=Good, Chechens=Bad yeah, right.... n/t
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Right, that's what I said
Reading your posts through that distorted prism, I'd have to conclude that you think Chechens=Good, Russians=Bad, ergo Terrorism=Good.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. talk about "binary"!!!
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 04:02 AM by blitzen
no need to get rude and personal....


What do you propose? More Putin tough-talk? An intransigent vow to "kill the terrorists"? Propose something...Why should Russia not just give it up, get out?



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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Sorry
I get personal when I see terrorist scum get a free pass, liberation struggles be damned.

Why should Russia give up a piece of its territory? What guarantees can Maskhadov and his ilk offer Russia with regards to border security and the well-being of whatever remains of the non-Muslim minority in Chechnya? Will indepdence turn into another ethnic cleansing, as has happened in Kosovo under the watchful eye of the same international institutions that have been pressuring Russia for unilateral withdrawal?

The situation is truly fucked; this isn't as simple as pulling troops out of a country half way across the world. My prediction? A continuation of the cycle of violence. Israel's a good example of what the future will look like.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. i hope your prognostication is wrong...but am afraid it's right n/t
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Maybe the Nazi were better to them than the Russians
All I'm trying to do is get the whole story.

Yes, this was an awful act. However, you'll never get the complete story without knowing what the Russians did to incur this hatred.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Chechen-Nazi collaboration is a fiction
http://home.wlu.edu/~goluboffs/260/chechnya_deportation...


The second category of documents was produced with the aim of preparing and
justifying the mass deportation of the Chechens and Ingush. This propaganda
work was begun by Stalins notorious henchman Lavrenty Beria in 1942, a
full two years before Beria himself took charge of the deportations. In
these, Muzayev says, all negative attributes of the Chechens and Ingush
are played up and all positive attributes downplayed. This eventually led
to a report entitled On the Situation in the Regions of
Chechen-Ingushetia written in November 1943 for Beria, which he used to
prepare the deportation operation three months later.

This report, historians say, has been used to justify the deportations
after the fact. A series of publications in the Russian press has picked up
on negative facts, Khasmagomadov said and suggested the Chechens
collaborated with the Nazis, although German forces never reached Chechnya
and there was no evidence that the Chechens went over to the other side
more than any other Soviet ethnic group did.





http://www.naqshbandi.net/haqqani/Islam/Shariah/muamala...

"The Chechens," wrote the Russian civil servant, "spend their life plundering and raiding their neighbors, who hate them for their ferocity.... Often punished by Russian arms, they are always ready to begin their crimes again .... The only way to deal with this ill-intentioned people is to destroy it to the last .... This would not be difficult, because their total numbers have greatly diminished."

Diminished they had, in no small measure thanks to the tireless efforts of four Russian emperors since the days of Catherine the Great. Though Nicholas never approved the blueprint for a "final solution" of the Chechen question, he proceeded to drown the Chechnya region in blood and carnage.

The Chechens were crushed, their land was deforested, their yurts, or villages, leveled and nearly two-thirds of their population was left dead. Many others were driven into exile in the Ottoman-controlled Middle East, where their descendants live to this day.

Those left behind grew accustomed to gross mistreatment by whoever happened to occupy the Russian throne: be it a Romanov czar, a Bolshevik secretary general or a democratically elected president. Few people on the Russian land mass have been victimized more often. Indeed, since the dawn of colonialism, few have been victimized more than the Chechens anywhere in the world.

In the winter of 1944, when Hitler was busy shipping Jews in sealed cattle cars to Auschwitz, Stalin applied the same method to the Chechens: He ordered the overnight deportation of the entire population to the steppes of Kazakhstan and Siberia. They were accused, along with other Muslim nations, of fictitious collective collaboration with the Nazis.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Check your sources
Summer offensive, 1942. Recognize any of the names?
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. so german forces being near or in a territory "proves"...
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 03:49 AM by blitzen
that the territory's inhabitants were Nazi collaborators? Not hardly.


And if there were some who were, is the "solution" mass (and near total) deportation?

And if there were some who were, what was the precise historical context of their "collaboration"? What were they aiming for by following that path?
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. No
Just debunking the all too common misconception that German forces never made it that far and pointing out that blindly trusting a single source isn't going to get you far.

As to why Stalin deported the Chechens, think of Russia's history in the region, figure in Stalin's legendary paranoia and add Ismailov's insurrection to the mix and you'll get a reason. Remember, Stalin thought nothing of killing six million Ukrainians in the name of collectivization, so you're going to have a hard time explaining his actions from within a humanist worldview.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Sheripov & Israilov's movement.. (semi-long)
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 04:45 AM by Aidoneus
(on edit: quite a lot added since original posting, though if I had more time it would be both longer and better organized)

Note that this went aboveground in 1940, when Stalin & Hitler were still officially pals. Or rather in another sense, also brought together 20yrs of surviving guerrila resistance movements that were themselves the lineal descendent of tendencies before the German Reich even existed. The claim of Nazi support is ridiculous; they should've crossed the Terek, so they could be turned into mangled Nazi zombies like anyone else who tried to occupy the place.

Russian dictators of every generation fucking hate the highlanders, and that's why they were deported. Whatever ridiculous propaganda line is held up to put a happy face on it is just an excuse. State media in the period turning on a dime on orders from above is interesting to read, people still quoting that sort of bullshit is only slightly amusing.

The bulk of the heavy lifting in the revolution took place before the Nazi-USSR war broke out, with most of the foothills area liberated. Israilov & Sheripov, and their other commanders, knew quite well how the Nazis treated comperable movements in the Ukraine, for example, and kept them beyond arm's length and in the end there was never any support given or accepted. Grozny was bombed by the Nazi invaders. It's a fact that they didn't give a dry fuck for the Russian authorities, but there is only an extent to which that fact can be stretched before it becomes a genocidal lie. With respect to the prospect of Nazi support, the North Caucasus National Committee said thusly: "if the liberation of the Caucasus meant the exchange of one coloniser for another, then the Caucasians would only consider this a new stage in the national liberation war".

I hope you're around later, deeper discussions on the matter would be nice though I haven't the time now.

I don't remember seeing your name before, so I'll extend a welcome.. though it might not be accepted once you realize what I am. You might be interested in updating your slurs, though:--kavkaz.org has been down for years; the new site is kavkazcenter.com, with a variety of mirrors.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. I want to thank you for the links you provided earlier in another thread.
Since I am not as familiar as you with the politics of the region, I am eager to know more. In the broader picture, it may help us understand the dynamic we are experiencing here in the USA and the connections to Putin and the Chechen situation. It seems that even some folks here on DU are willing to believe the "pravda" of one side or the other and are jumping to conclusions as well as getting emotional... this is understandable since a massacre of children just took place, but Chechen children are and were exterminated as well.

:hi:
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. I'll be sure to update my collection
The nazi justification doesn't stand up to scrutiny, even though it is not unexpected for the period. The Bandera movement in the Ukraine was accused of much the same thing, although it espoused anti-German and anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism. Were this written in a less emotional moment, I wouldn't have brought such a cheap shot into the discussion.

What I'm railing against here is not the Chechen people or their right to self-determination, but rather the lopsided views of the conflict evident on this board and heavily promoted by Western, particularly European, media. This kind of coverage is what leads some to justify atrocities in the name of national liberation or any other progressive cause. And that isn't any more acceptable than basing your worldview on what the ORT shows on the 9 o'clock news.

And don't worry, my anger extends to all, regardless of race, religion or creed. So thank you for your welcome.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. ok...i'll call a "truce"
Edited on Sun Sep-05-04 04:16 AM by blitzen
i really don't have a "horse in this race," as they say...(i.e., I have no passionate love for Chechens nor hate for Russians).

What I do hate is the mindless way that our leaders and media throw around the word "terrorist," along with the implication that the cause is religion. In most every case what is going on is an war driven by economics and class/power inequality. The American media (because they are lazy)are portraying this school tragedy as if its something that "terrorists" decided to do, without providing us ANY historical context.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. thank you! Exactly!
You nailed it.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
60. After the war, Kleist said
he fought his best battle along the Terek River.

His attack into the Caucuses slowly ran out of steam though as more and more of his strength was pulled north for the Stalingrad battle. It especially hurt when his air support and anti-aircraft units were taken away.

The Germans brought many emigrees from the different ethnic groups with them on the attack. They would be flown and infiltrated in before the main armies to try to get the local population to join them. Especially usefull were church leaders, both Moslem and Christian who hated the anti-religious Stalin regime.

BTW, Hitler formed three SS divisions with Moslem soldiers.

XIII Handschar Division, XXI Skanderberg Division, and XXIII Kama Division. Handschar's SS Insignia was a saracen sword. Skanderberg's was the Albanian flag. None of the divisions made it to the capitulation in 1945. They were all disbanded by the Nazis before that as there was no way to keep them under control. They just wanted to kill as many Serbs as possible, orders or not.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. And, what about our hiroshima bomb...
...and the "collateral" damage of killing innocents in Iraq?

If you take the one story - the hiroshima bomb - on its own without any explanation or context or history, then the bomb was an ultimate terrorist act.

Let's look at the whole story, shall we? This is part of an ongoing war, not an isolated incident.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. exactly...it's a war that we've been ignoring....
the way we blissfully ignore most of what's going on...


But this scares me: Putin is blaming this on Russia's past "weakness"!

We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten, he said. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/
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telamachus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
54. NO WAY!!!!!!
that may lead to more of them!!!!!!!!!
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
19. Killing innocent bystanders
and especially children is horrid and heinous. Killing babies proves again especially hard for my mothers heart to deal with when I have this emotionally driven need for revenge by ripping the bastards heads off and shitting down their necks, but I know killing for killing is not the answer either.

The bastards should no doubt be punished for the rest of their pathetic lives, but I can't help but to wonder and imagine if my own tenderest of hearts wouldn't become so hardened and cold after watching what years and years of genocide and seeing your children, family and friends die horrible deaths everyday. Not that it makes it "ok" by any stretch of the imagination. I guess it's easy to sit here and say shoulda, coulda, woulda in the relative safety of my cozy house in the USA.
Those poor babies :cry:
Will we ever evolve :-(
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. well, then mr. clinton must be high in your hierarchy of evil
what with having killed 500,000 or so iraqi children:

http://www.harpers.org/CoolWar.html?pg=1

of course, others feel differently and think the killing of all these children was worthwhile:

In May 1996 Madeleine Albright, who was then the U.S. ambassador to the UN, was asked by 60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl, in reference to years of U.S.-led economic sanctions against Iraq,

We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
To which Ambassador Albright responded,

I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401b.asp

i hope you are just as adamant, or based on the numbers 1,000 times as adamant, the mr. clinton be punished likewise.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. All governments lie
All of them.

I'm waiting for the day when we finaly wake up and realize it's not about left or right. That just keeps our attentions diverted. But yeah I know what yer talkin' about.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
51. I am not going to feel sorry for a cause that kills the innocent to get it
s way, nor do I believe that every single different ethnic group is entitled to a country, particularly when they try to obtain that aim through violence.
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
55. This analysis somehow very cleverly omits one thing
How the ethnic Russian population was treated in 1990-94 and why the Russians actually moved there. This is a very convenient gap in the knowledge for the burger-eating, TV channel flipping audience.
There was a massacre of ethnic russians, some of them were killed some of them fled to the neighboring regions, women raped and killed, people taken as slaves and sold for ransom. Would you like to have the same kind of state next door, say in Mexico? I wanna see how you react to things when you will find out that this month 500 good Americans were taken as slaves by Mexicans and are living in a mexican slave pit to be rescue for ransom.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. And as for Stalin,
Chechens were not his only victims.
They might have suffered under him, but Stalin is said to have killed millions of Russians as well.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
57. Russia/Chechnya, Israel/Palestine, America/Iraq = terrorism
The Russians repress and murder Chechens. Result, terrorism
The Israelis repress and murder Palestinians. Result, terrorism.
The Americans repress and murder Iraqis. Result, terrorism.

The list could be much, very much, longer going all the back to the erection of the first cities.

"Terrorists", "Freedom Fighters", call them what you will, don't just suddenly appear for no reason.

Far more Chechen children have died than Russian.
Far more Palestinian children have died than Israeli.
Far more Iraqi children have died than American.

"Legal", "Moral", bombing makes children just as dead as "Illegal", "Immoral", terrorist actions.

Violence, whether done by the military or "terrorists, begets violence.

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Orion82 Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
65. I think
All these terrorist attacks that have happened to Russia lately had nothing to do with the Chechens. Just like 9/11 had nothing to do with Bin Ladin. The Russian gov was behind all of it to get sympathy from their people just like shrub did here at home.
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