Is It Just Me, or Do You Get the Feeling You're Too Informed

[louis c]

Now, before I get accused of being too arrogant, let me explain.

First, I am not more informed as compared to my DU brethren. My angle may be a more labor perspective, but I learn a lot more on this site than I teach.

Second, I'm not talking about intelligence, because in real life I'm only average.

I'm talking about knowledge about the current election and the national and international events that are affecting our lives.

It's frustrating that in a discussion about the Iraq war, I'm citing the Balfor declaration of 1920, and the British partition of the country to people who still think Saddam had WMD's. Or better yet, that when I describe Rumsfeld and Cheney's positions in the 1980's that encouraged Saddam, I'm called a liar.

On the economy, those who say that Kerry is too liberal because he has a 96% liberal voting record, I point out that he has a 96% Pro-Labor voting record. These assholes on the other side have made you not like public officials that vote in your best interests by confusing the labels.

Health Care, Minimum Wage increase, work place safety, increased unemployment benefits, the right to organize, and equal pay are all considered part of the "Liberal" agenda instead of for the working class. Day care, support for public education, improved infrastructure, and on and on and on.

The polling data from Europe and Asia show that our allies hate the present U.S. government. Canada and Mexico are against our policies, we might not have a friend in the world and the response is so what.

I remember thinking that when they put together a jury for a major trial, they ask people if they ever heard about it. Like O.J. or other such high profile cases. I thought to myself "why do we want someone who lives in a hole to make life or death decisions?"

I fear that's where we are now. The five percent that are going to decide the future of the country and most probably the world, are the most uninformed, disinterested, and easily manipulated among us.

As I vent, I was wondering, do any of you get this same feeling?

[roguevalley]

1. yes. it makes me impatient with others who aren't.

[louis c]

6. I mean , really

even in this Swift Boat nonsense, I'm Quoting Thurlow in '96, Elliot's evaluations that called Kerry a superior commander and his endorsement of Kerry at the same event in "96.

Drooz's widow and Rood when he won his Silver Star. Rassman, and what the f**k, you know the story.

But what good is it. People have opinions with no knowledge, and brag about it. "I have a right to my opinion", and when you challenge that opinion, thay get angry. "I might not follow it like you do, but I know he's lying".

They act as though ignorance were a virtue.

It's really getting to me.

[Tigerlily]

49. I know exactly what you mean, louis_c

Through propaganda, it seems as though they have even managed to label those of us who "follow it", as a nuisance, a nerd, or an "elitist" intellectual. Very disheartening indeed. :(

[NMDemDist2]

2. only every day Louis

I always just choose one little piece of info to impart in any given discussion

then watch their brows furrow, their eyes narrow as they say "What? where did you hear that?"

I smile sweetly and tell them where to find it, or say "Just google it"

case in point, I was talking to a customer the other day, nice guy, tech at the company. I mentioned "Gee too bad about those new overtime rules huh? That will really impact your team soon probably."

hehhehehhee the rest as they say.....

[Cha]

3. I know exactly what you mean and the answer is Yes!

But the way I am obsessing over the political world since the stolen election..how could I not know too much?

We're almost to the finish line and then knowning these world grabbing Fascists..they will start tearing Kerry/Edwards down Immediately!

[Nay]

4. Very much the same. It is impossible to discuss political matters

with people who are so uninformed that they believe total nonsense, such as "Bush is a godly man," and base decisions upon the emotional touchpoints beaten into them by the ad agencies.

I have no cure for this, except the total destruction of the idea of mass visual communication. I don't see most people as being able to deal with the brainwashing that results. So there is no cure, as far as I can see.

[Booster]

5. Yes, and almost everybody I know is sick to death

of my new found knowledge. There are certain of best friends that I just don't talk politics to at all because I get the feeling that it is turning them the other way, so I carefully pick my battles and only speak up (to them) when asked. God knows I don't want ANYBODY to vote for Bush because I turned them off to Kerry. As it is, my car, t-shirts, even my mailbox has Kerry/Edwards all over them so I am aware that I can become obnoxious. If asked though, all bets are off.

[bloom]

7. today I was made aware of it as I was talking with a democrat

who is a poll worker who has not heard one thing about concerns about computer voting/Diebold/etc.

Seems like there should be a systematic way to inform at least the poll workers in all the counties.

[bobbieinok]

12. this is appalling!?!?!?!?!!? dem poll worker knowing zip abt BBV

[T Bone]

42. I know of poll workers

who can't find a name in an alphabetized list. You expect them to know about Diebold?

[sampsonblk]

8. I am with you

Its like talking to a brick wall sometimes. Some people don't want facts. They have their faith, and that's enough.

[Zynx]

9. The Republicans need an ignorant electorate.

They absolutely need it.

[The empressof all]

10. About 2 hours a day worth

A co-worker asked me last year how much time I spend reading current events. At that time it was about 2 hours a day. I tend to read Internet with news or c-span on. Now with the election coming up and my unemployment I'm probably doing closer to three hours. I'm not including time spent in the car or doing other regular chores around the house with the radio on. (News or acceptable talk radio).

I don't know if I'm obsessed. I still get things done. Some of my friends have said to me that I'm letting it take over all of my other interests.

If I'm addicted---I don't care. I think it's important.

[bobbieinok]

11. at the 2000 dem county election nite party, many had NOT heard of AWOL

and they were furious.....they 'could have'don e something with this info

[tandot]

13. I just had an old friend over to visit...he is 48

He saw my bumper stickers and talked about another friend of his who has 3 anti-Bush bumper stickers on his car...in Oklahoma... I thought this is pretty cool, especially considering the region we are living in.

Well, my friend asked me to explain what I mean with right or left and who is who...he said that he is really not paying attention (obviously) and that he didn't know what Kerry or Bush stand for. I wasn't even able to go into details since we didn't have too much time to discuss even just the simplest issues in this election and I just wanted to spend some time talking about the good old times.

This was a reminder that some people just don't pay attention. People are so caught up in their own lives and daily struggles, that they just don't take the time to "muse" about politics.

Very, very sad...

:-(

[louis c]

14. But at least your friend knew he didn't know

how about the assholes that formulate an opinion that does affect their lives, and brag about not knowing.

[FizzFuzz]

15. yeah sometimes I wish I could just be happily ignorant like so many sheepl

I know that sounds awful but ........
Anyway, I feel trapped sometimes because I am very poor at discussing what I'm aware of-I can't remember important sources or dates or facts; like those powerful facts you mentioned about labor laws, 1920, 96% pro-labor voting record, etc. I just can't keep details in my head, and if I were to try to argue with some moron who looooves Sux news and thinks Bush is so likeable.....It makes me feel like exploding sometimes. Then my mind reallly goes blank.

Maybe I should just keep a stack of flyers with some prime facts on them to hand out.

[legin]

21. Don't worry FizzFuzz

When I used to play a bit of chess when I was younger I always used to be much better at corespondence chess (2 or 3 days to think up a move in peace and quiet), than over the board play (2 hours for 40 moves with the clock going tick, tick, tick, tick).

It's something like a skill or something, whatever it is I mostly don't have it.

Talkboards are cool because I can get my act together before I post, although I do have this habit of leaving the most important word out for some reason. ;-)

[FizzFuzz]

30. lol! thanks, legin

yeah, boards are good for me too--I can check on google for specifics that I know are out there, but can't remember in a pinch. Plus, talking, sometimes I get tongue tied or stutter, especially if I'm worked up.

Also, I don't watch TV, hardly at all, and don't read mainstream news so I can have quite an information gap sometimes.

Mostly I'm better at detecting and shooting down lapses in logic or dysfunctional verbal tricks, the kind of thing where I don't have to remember a certain quote by an important thinker in the canon I neglected to study in college.

added on edit:
here's a small example: Few months ago, I was commiserating with a woman who may lose her job, with only 3 more years till retirement. She is a lifelong clerical worker, a member of the feminine face of the working poor (a large percentage of the lowest paying jobs are in the pink collar ghetto, as we know)---anyway, I was commiserating a bit and I sadly mentioned the awful economy due to Bush. She suddenly closed up and clucked that "Wellll Kerry's not so hot either". I just didn't know what to say at that point. Don't quite remember now what I DID say, but I know I couldn't think of any quick factual soundbite. Partly I think because of the sheer enormity of Bush/SmirkCo malfeasance.

She won't speak to me anymore! God I had no idea; later I found out she's a Rush fan too!!!!!!!!!

But anyway, that's an example of what frustrates me about myself.

[legin]

40. I think it is possible to improve with practice

I sort of help/teach basic computers one day a week voluntary. Sort of wander around the room helping any student that needs help.

The number of times when I have done a really rotten job of explaining something has fallen off over time, although after teaching the same 6 week slybus to different sets of students for 18 months, I should hope so. Although when something new crops up the problem tends to re-emerge.

Though I can remember watching one student, who was an ex-teacher, explain something to another student, it was awe-inspiring, beutifully paced, calm, clear and logical.

In another job I did, we used to organise meetings. One time the speaker never turned up. This mate of mine who was chair of the organisation, pulled off an exceptionaly good meeting off the top of his head for 1 and half hours. Some people just do have this ability.

[legin]

41. Although worrying that you havn't got the ability

when you are called upon to show it, tends to have a faily detrimental effect.

The more I've relaxed and stoped worrying the more i've improved.

[agincourt]

16. It's not us,

it's just everybody else doesn't know how to analyze and weigh issues. It wasn't for nothing that von Reagen tried to get people out of college, and mind expanding courses out of high schools. Now they reap the rewards.

[pansypoo53219]

17. yes,

and i need someone to say 'there there', it will all be alright and pet my head.

[Xipe Totec]

18. Maybe The Repugs Have A point?

Perhaps we are too elitists for our own good sometime; too proud about how smart and informed we are on the issues, when we should be worrying about propagating the message. After all, that is the root of the word. "Propaganda de fe" means propagation of the faith.

To win an election you need a majority. (please don't quibble about electoral vs popular vote, it would just prove that we are elitist snobs).

If you assume that every person of average intelligence or better will vote for Kerry, because that's the smart thing to do, that only gives us 50% of the voters. To win, we need to appeal to at least some voters OF BELOW AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE. To do that we need to simplify the message even at the cost of losing logical accuracy. Every time we get into an argument about whether Kerry's Silver Star should or should not have a "V", we lose some votes because people don't get it. Every time we argue about Kerry being in Cambodia on X-mas or two days later, we lose votes because voters don't get it.

Meanwhile, Karl Rove takes a page from Machiavelli, another from Orwell's 1984, another from 'Animal Farm', and a little bit of Teutonic fervor from Goebbels, and simplifies the message to it's bare minimum:

Bush good, Kerry Bad!

If we challenge the statement then we have the burden of proof. If the proof is complicated it does not matter that it is correct, we still loose. If we confuse the voter he will stay with the incumbent because he is the devil that he knows.

:shrug:

What we need to do is clarify on our message and obfuscate theirs. We need to simplify the message to:

Kerry Good, Bush Ba-ha-ha-ad!

We need to stop playing the role of the Russian Intelligentsia pitted against the Repug Bolsheviks.

:dem:

[louis c]

19. You have a point

you know what hit home today with some Repukes?

That al-Sadr and his militia were given Amnesty for killing Americans.

Very parochial, very narrow thinking, and very simple. They were at a loss. It seemed to hit them where it hurt.

[Xipe Totec]

25. That's a Good Simple Line, Hits Where it Hurts

The key is to know what moves the voters, understand why they viscerally support Bush, and then undermine that emotional pillar. Punch them in the gut with facts showing that their idol betrayed them.

Here's another one:

BUSH PROTECTING TERRORISTS!

The US State Department officially considers a group of 3,800 Marxist Iranian rebels - who once killed several Americans and was supported by Saddam Hussein - "terrorists."

But the same group, under American guard in an Iraqi camp, was just accorded a new status by the Pentagon: "protected persons" under the Geneva Convention.

There are a lot of very good, very complicated, reasons why the State Department did this. But let the Repugs be the ones to quibble and argue. Meanwhile we just keep repeating.

BUSH IS PROTECTING TERRORIST!

PS: For the benefit of DUers, who I know insist on fact verification, here is the link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0729/p07s01-wome.html

However, I would not recommend providing easy access to references when having an argument with a freeper. Let them waste time doing their own research!





:evilgrin:

[louis c]

28. Ya

I also like to remind them of all the Chicken Hawk talk that President big balls shouted when the four "contractors" were killed and mutilated in Fallujah.

"We're not going to rest until the town hands over the perpetrators of this grotesque incident."

Ya right. How close are we to their arrest, Prez?

[sandnsea]

53. And they're who we liberated

That hits them too, they're the ones we went to liberate, then we're fighting them, then we turn around and give Sadr amnesty. Total fuckup and that's how simple we need to talk.

[louis c]

54. You've got it

[FizzFuzz]

36. I totally agree, and wish I said it so well!

:toast:

I believe that we need to get our message out in the shit-head media which boils down info to pictures with brief text. And we need to focus on simple morality plays.

If something simple to comprehend, that could easily be reduced to IMAGERY, we would have a win. That's why I loved F/9-11 and wish that more "non-readers" would see it.

Also, use the rethug skill at manipulating the vindictive yearnings of powerless people. They strip peoples power then hand them sacrificial bad guys who will suffer at "Our" hands (the Admin which is powerful and knows right from wrong and will protect you, releasing people's anger in ways that benefits the people in power.

[Xipe Totec]

39. An Interesting Quotation on Dumbing Down

Simplifying the message for the sake of propagating it is an ancient technique that goes back to the origin of propaganda itself:


"It is striking to see the most cultivated and the most eminent representatives of the new Christian elite, conscious of their cultural unworthiness compared to the last purists, renounce what they yet possessed or could acquire in the form of intellectual refinements so that they could make themselves accessible to their flocks. They chose to grow stupid in order to conquer. If this leaves us dissatisfied it is nonetheless impressive. This farewell to antique literature, often uttered by men fully aware of the circumstances, is by no means the least moving aspect of abnegation of the great Christian leaders of the early middle ages...

<snip>

...Caesarius of Arles took this point of view further:

I humbly beg that the ears of the educated may be content to bear rustic expressions without complaint, so that all the Saviour’s flock can receive heavenly food in a simple and down-to-earth language. Since the ignorant and the simple cannot rise themselves to the height of the educated, let the educated deign to lower themselves to their ignorance. Educated men can understand what has been said to the simple, whereas the simple are not able to profit from what would have been said to the learned."

Jacques Le Goff
Medieval Civilization 400-1500
Barnes & Noble 2000

There is no on-line link to this quote, sorry.

[djohnsper]

20. MSN Presidential Poll

Is this poll being hit by Dems?
It is Continuously in Kerry's favor. Not that this is bad, I love seeing the vast % difference. But wonder if it is being Dem(ed).

[louis c]

22. welcome to DU djohnsper

and I hope to hear more from you.

Do you have a post for the MSN poll?

[djohnsper]

24. HI Lois C

Yes, try www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5762240

this is one link. Go to the Poll. See what I mean?

Thanks for the Welcome!!

[louis c]

26. Please don't change my gender

it's louis c, not lois c.

anyway, welcome aboard, I'll be looking forward to reading your posts.

[djohnsper]

31. Sorry

Didn't mean to change your gender. Just forgot the u. Did you check out the link? What do you think?

[louis c]

32. Ya, I vote on that line

but like I said in the original thread, who do you think is reading this info? Guess what, Kerry by 16 points.

The more informed you are about the issues, the more likely you are to vote Kerry.

If they take the same poll at an auto race, who do you think wins?

[djohnsper]

34. Sooo.....

In reality this poll is probably not representative of an "across the board" lot sample of voters. It must be slightly swayed to the left.
Or can I be wrong. However with that many people voting you hope it does cover a good cross section of voters or "potential" voters.

[Xipe Totec]

35. Link to Polling Reports

These are better polls to look at:

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

Have Fun!


:dem:

[LWolf]

23. I'm well informed on a few issues;

professional and personal. I'm not as well informed on the rest of the issues, and when I find a good conversation about them here, I learn more than I would listening to the nightly news, anyway. I like to hear more than one pov, check the evidence provided, and then make up my own mind. But I admit, while I'm hyper-focused on my issues, I let others carry the banner for those I don't know much about!

When I do know an issue, I can get frustrated with the rest of the world who doesn't yet "see" it, just like I don't "see" their particular focus.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Think of it as the flip side of "Ignorance is Bliss"...

Old truisms hang around for a reason....

[louis c]

29. I never thought of it that way

but you know something, I think you're correct.

[LibDemAlways]

33. The uninformed people I know have

no interest in "talking politics" and will quickly change the subject rather than expose the depths of their ignorance. I once unintentionally embarrassed an aquaintance when I remarked that a teacher at our children's school looked like Jesse Ventura. She had no idea who he was, had never even heard of him. Lesson learned - assume others know nothing about politics and engage only those interested in learning more.

[BeFree]

37. Good thread, louis

Was talking to a sweet, young, apolitical, cutee tonight. In a conversation hitting on many things, I asked if she was gonna vote. She said if she did, she'd probably not vote for boosh.

I simply stated that Kerry was going to be one of the best Presidents we've ever had.

In other conversations, I've come up with things like:

I trust Kerry will deal with the terrorism better than boosh ever did.

Kerry will be better for the working man.

Republicans are ruining this country.

****************

See? Keep it short and simple when dealing with the average voter. Use terms which contradict the BS coming from the Whitehouse. When they throw an off the wall lie at you, just laugh, and slide in a "Kerry is gonna make a damn fine president, just you wait and see".

Kerry On!

[specimenfred1984]

38. Cons Need Dumb Followers, Here's a Creepy Quote...

"The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision."

"The whole art consists in doing this so skillfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself, since its function, like the poster, consists in attracting the attention of the crowd, and not in educating those who are already educated or who are striving after education and knowledge, its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect."

"All propaganda must be popular and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence among those it is addressed to. Consequently, the greater the mass it is intended to reach, the lower its purely intellectual level will have to be. But if, as in propaganda for sticking out a war, the aim is to influence a whole people, we must avoid excessive intellectual demands on our public, and too much caution cannot be exerted in this direction." - Adolf Hitler

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html

[Norquist Nemesis]

44. Ahh, yes. The Rush Limbaugh Bible.

Very interesting. What that says is exactly what Rush has been doing for years. Then, others like Savage, Hannity, O'Reilly, etal have tried to copy him but aren't as good at it. They must not have read up on it like Rush.

[CitySky]

43. Good Thread

I agree with those who've stressed keeping it simple. Friendly.

If I'm running errands, I wear my Kerry pin on a hat near my face. I smile a lot, and greet people. Yesterday the checker at the drugstore kind of tentatively took the bait: "Kerry...?"

"Yep!" I affirmed.

"He's running for... ?"

"President."

And then the kid felt embarrassed and mumbled something about how he should probably get more informed... I kept it friendly, nonjudgemental, as if not knowing who's running for president could happen to anyone, whatever. I shared something brief about why I'm voting D; one reason is enough even though I have a thousand, whatever is on my heart at the time. And I will get in THAT kid's line next time I'm at that store.

Other times I'll encourage ones his age (he was 21) to watch F9/11, because it shows what the government is doing to get them in the military, and what's really going on in the war. It's coming out on DVD next month.

A little bit at a time.

[Aidoneus]

45. the Balfour conspiracy was hatched in 1917, but I get your point..

Paradoxically, the enemy also thinks of 'us' as the real uninformed blind savage, ruled by emotions of pure hate, so.. :shrug:

[Tsiyu]

46. People are either too busy or too lazy to pay attention

That's how * and his Minions get it done. I do get aggravated at the complete and utter ignorance out there, because I feel people are throwing away their own lives only to feel "safe." They don't want to know what's going on. "Just leave me alone and let me distract myself and buy stuff."

[Disturbed]

47. If it isn't on TV it didn't happen.

The people on the Net are nut cases and the Net is mostly lies or crazy talk.

I don't have time to read newspapers, books or magazines about politics, history or anything else.

It's higly frustrating to have a logical convo with people who make those statements.

[louis c]

48. kick

[lostnfound]

50. Yes, and it makes me less effective with the uninformed.

Because I can't relate to their baseline..I flood them with "TMI" - too much information - at once, I think.

[louis c]

51. I agree

All I know is convincing with logic and facts.

I have a much easier time convincing those who may disagree with me, but are very well informed.

At least I get a "I may not agree with you, but I see your point".

The uninformed are like speaking to someone in a different language that neither of us understand.

Some don't know the most fundamental aspects of Congress. How the majority controls the agendas and the oversight committees.

Here I go again, the people I talk to don't even know that the Republicans control both branches of Congress.

It's so frustrating, I could just scream.

[teryang]

52. Did you ever notice that the "success" press

...that publish the "how to be successful" self help books always urge people to avoid being informed on unpleasant world realities and "focus" on their personal goals and avoid "negative" people and sources dwelling on war, crime, murder, poverty, and other "sensational" issues.

I'm convinced that this philosophy has taken root. Looking at the Yahoo ratings on news articles, any report that is unpleasant in its implications has a lower rating than articles with a positive spin. People just don't want to hear or consider the unpleasant ramifications of government policies and actions.