I wonder why Canada went left and the USA went right?

[Swede]

Healthcare,welfare,guncontrol, criminal justice, same-sex,marijuana, enviroment,Canada always chooses left,USA right. Even Canada's military proudly wear the blue helmet of the UN,something the US will not do. The demographs are the same. Take any US statistic divide by ten and you'll have a pretty accurate Canadian statistic.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. Maybe because the U.S. won its independence in a revolution, and

was the first major nation to do so, it developed a sense of self-importance and underlying violence.

In contrast, Canada remained under British control for a much longer time and could not act truly independently. It expanded from coast to coast, as the U.S. did, but not really on its own initiative. As a member of the British Commonwealth, it sent troops to fight in both World War I and World War II, but did not ever feel like going in and invading countries for the hell of it, as the U.S. did in the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War.

Closer ties with Britain may also have helped with such things as the establishment of national health care.

As I've observed politics and society over the years, I've learned that everything is connected. For example, the current war is having a huge effect on the deficit, which is having a huge effect on social programs and other government spending, as well as reinforcing the notion that might makes right, and therefore encouraging violent attitudes.

[TrustingDog]

2. I think it's because we have the Monty Python thang about us.

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. What? Cross-dressing lumberjacks? (n/t)

[Swede]

3. That may be part of it. The US went to war for independence

Canada signed a piece of paper for it.

[Columbia]

24. Technically, we signed a paper too

It's just that the British didn't take to it too well.

[TrustingDog]

23. we are John Cleese, you are Dennis Miller. :)

heh. sorry, that probably hurt.

[Cha]

100. Great observations...something to

to think about.

It's funny cause I was thinking about this question recently, too.

I'm going to Canada over Labor Day and stay for only two nights at Niagara Falls, but I am so excited just to be in their Country.

If I weren't moving to Hawaii in two years ..I would consider Canada as a place to live.

[HEyHEY]

4. I think alot has to do with the French influence

A naturally more socialist group.

[Kanary]

5. Can you think of any country besides the US that went "right"?

I can't either.

Kanary

[HEyHEY]

7. Cambodia

[Kanary]

8. Well, gee...... suddenly we've jumped into the oranges column

Since we were talking about two industrialized nations, did I have to spell that out?

I guess so.....

Kanary

[HEyHEY]

9. Ease up cowboy

I was just being cheeky

[Kanary]

11. I'm no "cowboy", and I was cheeky right back.

:)

Head 'em up, move 'em out........

:toast:

Kanary

[HEyHEY]

12. rawhide!

[arcos]

30. Israel, Russia, Colombia...

all of them in very different ways, but I think they are good examples anyway.

[AntiCoup2K4]

60. Germany, circa 1933

:(

[barb162]

61. Russia

the last few years...capitalism and crime combining for a very bad situation.

[onebigbadwulf]

6. They think with their brains... we think with our bibles

It's pretty simple. Religious fanaticism is the cause of many of our problems.

[Kanary]

10. "thinking with our bibles"......?

Isnt' that an oxymoron?

:hi:

Kanary

[onebigbadwulf]

19. I'd say no more so than "thinking with your penis"

which is a pretty common thing to do.

[rockymountaindem]

13. As my sometimes wise Canadian friend said

"In the US, you ask 'what are my rights', but in Canada we ask 'what are my responsibilities'"

I thought that was telling.

[HEyHEY]

14. I heard a similar thing about guns

In the US, they say "I have a right to carry a gun" in Canada they say "I have the right not to be surrounded by people carrying guns"

[Columbia]

25. Interesting

Replace "people carrying guns" with blacks, Jews, or the poor and it is not so savory anymore is it? Gun owners are just like any other group of people and deserve the same respect.

Personally, I like living in a country that values the rights of the minority over a tyranny of the majority (although it is getting to be less that way).

[jeffrey_X]

48. Huh?

Carrying a gun is a CHOICE. Last time I checked you can't choose your skin color or ethnicity.

[Columbia]

52. A lot of things are choice

That doesn't mean they should be denigrated for making them.

Religion is a choice. Abortion is a choice. Activism is a choice.

How would you like it any of them were condemned simply for exercising that choice?

[HEyHEY]

73. You don't get it

We aren't a nation of people that hate not being allowed to carry weapons everywhere. We consider it a freedom we have not to be surounded by guns. Where you look at it as ou have a freedom to carry a gun.

[Columbia]

75. I do get it

Freedom is slavery.

[HEyHEY]

70. See, you just totally exemplified what I said

[Columbia]

72. Apparently you do not understand

What you said is *not* a good thing. Not at all progressive either.

How would you like it if a freeper said "I have the right not to be surrounded by gays"?

[HEyHEY]

74. Bullshit

You don't understand that we're talking about a different country with different values than the US. ....WE DON'T VALUE a "right" to bear arms. We value the right not to be surrounded by guns...and there are MANY countries around the world that would LOVE to exercise THAT right.

WE have a right to not feel threatened by firearms here - that's how we see it

[Columbia]

77. Different values

Yes, I can see that.

I'm just glad that I live in a country where we value a person's rights even if they are perceived to be unsavory by others.

[HEyHEY]

78. yeah but unsavory can't be applied to weapons - that's a safety issue

Real danger. Up here we can't carry a gun, but we can show boobs during primetime. There's morality and then there's safety

[Columbia]

79. It sure is a safety issue

And one you dictate to others without regards to their rights or their safety.

[HEyHEY]

80. Again, we're on the opposite side

We feel by not giving everyone guns, we're protecting their safety. And if you look at per-capita murder rates....we'd be right

I should ad, I'm refering to Handguns and assualt rifles. Any other guns are easy to come by here

[Columbia]

81. Correlation is not causation

Canada has always had a lower homicide rate, with or without gun control.

"We feel by restricting X, we are protecting them" can be said about any of the freedoms we hold dear. As liberals, we are supposed to protect rights and freedoms. We can't just pick and choose which ones we like or don't like. The minute we start doing that, we'd let the freepers choose to restrict which ones they don't like either.

edit to add: I'm talking about the US here, not Canada.

[HEyHEY]

82. Okay, so do you think drunk driving is a right?

[Columbia]

83. It can be proved that drunk driving is dangerous to others

Gun ownership, however, has not been proven so.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

[HEyHEY]

85. I'm sure at least half of the 10,000 gun-murdered americans would disagree

with that statement

[Columbia]

86. If they do, it would not be backed up by the facts

[HEyHEY]

88. Murdered by a bullet in the head - that's a fact

The point is the two countires versions of what is their right regarding guns is different. You consider it unsavory to disallow weapons, our country collectively feels it is unsavory to allow them.
We're a different people.

I should also add this dispute is a perfect example of why a Canada Us merger would never work ;-)

[Columbia]

91. Well, look at the underlying cause

Isn't that what liberals do?

Instead of knee-jerk responses like bombing some random 3rd world country for revenge, we figure out what is wrong and what is needed to prevent it from happening again?

In the US, the vast majority of gun murders are linked to the war on drugs. Now this is where Canada values the rights of their citizens more than the US. Your emphasis on rehabilitation rather than incarceration is a leading factor of why you do not have the drug-realted turf battles we do here. By spending the billions of dollars we do here to fight the war on drugs, the unintended consequence becomes a thriving and extremely violent black-market and a loss of rights for many.

Edit: Also, protecting the rights of the poor (ie. welfare/healthcare) are also factors in reducing the incentive for people to resort to drugs and crime for subsistence.

[HEyHEY]

92. Your stanima is amazing

So, I'll make this my last post on the subject and we'll agree to disagree. Just letting you know why I won't respond to another post, it's not cause I'm bitter.

Vancouver's downtown eastside is a good example of drugs in Canada, the largest open drug market in North AMerica, and the poorest postal code between Canada and the USA. A real terrible place.
But, they haven't got near the homocide rate the US ghettos have. Much of that is because it is easier to shoot someone in the head, than it is to stab them today. By eliminating a quick , easy solution, you eliminate gun violence.

[Columbia]

95. Yes, open drugs combined with poor

The difference, however, is that it is open and your emphasis on treatment rather than punishment.

Again, as I noted in a link earlier, gun control has not been proven to reduce violent crime. Drug rehab rather than incarceration has.

[canuckforpeace]

71. Actually, Canadians have a pretty high % gun ownership

(we like to hunt) but lower stats on gun crime. Sorry I don't have a link to back this up with. I'm on excrutiatingly slow dial-up. It takes forever to look anything up.

Michael Moore addressed this in "Bowling for Columbine" although he would have you believe we have NO gun crime. Not true.

[HEyHEY]

84. But we don't allow for Handguns as easily

Which makes a big difference

[Kanary]

15. Similar to the European nations.

They're beginning to catch the "me" flu from us, but so far, to a lesser degree.

I hope they're well innoculated.

Kanary

[Swede]

17. Well Kanary let's hope you guys put Kerry in the Whitehouse.

Time to get some sanity back in.

[Kanary]

18. Can I be honest?

Without getting trashed for it?

~~whispering~~ I don't look for Kerry to make that much difference. It'll be a holding action, nothing more.

As for the "me" flu...... that doesn't have to do with who is president..... it's now part of the US landscape. It started during Raygun's mess, and was alive and well all through Clinton's 8 years, and shows no sign of letting up. No, it's now part of our culture. Such as it is.

We could sure learn some valuable lessons from Europeans!

:hi:

:toast:

Kanary

[Vladimir]

31. When you're right, you're right n/t

[Thor_MN]

53. Yes, but..

If you are right, then it's still all good. In a sense, it's like the GOP saying that not voting for a tax decrease is voting for raising taxes. Electing a president who did nothing more than hold everything where it is, would be voting against the destruction of our country.

[Kanary]

68. My priorities are a bit different

My first priority is poverty issues. Since Kerry voted *FOR* Clinton's Welfare Deform, I expect him to continue voting for cuts to the safety net. That means more deaths of poor folk, likely including me, so, while *YOU* may feel better, it doesn't do me or other poor folk any good.

I realize that matters not to most Dems, including those here on DU. We simply don't register on your scale at all. Nevertheless, while our deaths will be silent, and you won't even notice, there WILL be deaths. So, party on.

Kanary

[Lindacooks]

96. A holding action??

I don't think so. For one thing, Senator Kerry will stop the assault against the environment that Bush* has wrought. President Kerry will repeal the tax cuts for the richest Americans and use that money to help people afford health insurance. He will make sure that women's rights are protected and will roll back the restrictions the Repukes forced down our throats. That is NOT a holding pattern.

[kodi]

35. so right. its that "rugged individualism" propaganda poisoning

i often post on political boards the following:

rights are <, = to, or > than responsibilites?

[SoCalDem]

16. Parliament vs phony democracy

:(

[K-W]

20. Parliment > single member districts.

I think that is probably the main reason.

Also, Canada never did what the US did and regularly purge all liberals from positions of power and destroy all progressive movements.

[yvr girl]

21. Canadians are more pragmatic

It comes from our history. Our history is one of negotiation and compromise. How can we get a deal done, how can we make this work. It goes back to protecting the rights of the conquored French. We didn't rub their noses in it. If we had treated ther Germans better after WWI, would there have been a WWII?

Canada is also this vast country with very few people. I think we needed to work together more to build a viable nation. Our Federal government is also more of a unifying force. We built a railroad. We have the RCMP.

I also think that our history as a business venture has something to do with it. We didn't have Pilgrims coming to our shores to find freedom. Our initial settlers were here to work for 'the Bay.' There was money to be made in the fur trade. Business people tend to be pragmatic. My two cents.

[Zero Division]

22. Did Canada go through anti-Communist hysteria like the US?

Even to this day rabid RWers rant and rave about "socialist" Dems or "Commie" Libs, even though Marxist Socialism and Communism are utterly marginalized on the American Left.

How many nations that have been industrialized for a relatively long period of time went through anti-Communist hysteria to the extent that the United States did?

[HEyHEY]

54. No....I actually worked in a town that was once "communist"

The town of Blairmore ALberta in the 30s declared itself a communist town

[Zero Division]

98. Thanks for responding....I think that definitely explains it

Although bitterness left over from the civil rights struggle in the United States is probably the other important factor behind the US's uniquely powerful rightward swing among the West European-based industrial democracies.

[0rganism]

26. It's Lincoln's fault

Because he insisted on keeping the Union together, we got stuck with a whole bunch of resentful racists and religious nutcases skewing the voting demographics. Of course, the Civil War also ended American slavery decades earlier than it would have otherwise. A mixed bag.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened had the Confederacy successfully separated from the United States. Slavery would have persisted for a time, but it was already becoming economically difficult. Perhaps the disastrous era of Jim Crow laws would have been avoided altogether, had an independent Confederacy gradually freed slaves of its own accord from economic advantage.

Also, the Confederacy would have been in competition with the Union for western territories. It's possible that the Native American nations would have fared better politically having the ability to play two powers off against each other.

Parallel universe stuff, tho. We are what we is, and yer stuck with us.

[DebJ]

28. Our military strenth and (former) world leadership has

allowed them that freedom of choice.

[Spazito]

36. I would disagree there...

there is no "allowed" imo. We do not have enemies that wish to harm us so have not needed your military strength. The only country that has ever tried to invade Canada was the US, the invasions failed.

Canada is different because, as another poster stated, our country was born from negotiations not war. Our influences came from Europe not the United States. We believe in shared responsibility over individual rights.

There are those that believe that Canada could not stand alone, without the protections of the United States, they are wrong. We have had a long-standing relationship in trade, we are each others biggest trading partners.

We are two different countries and that is a good thing, imo. We need not be mirror images of each other but rather take what is good in each and try to emulate those while retaining that which makes each of us unique.

[Swede]

39. Canada fought the coldwar with the USA.

In world war two it had the fourth largest military. It is a member of NATO and NORAD. It has thousands of troops stationed in Europe for 60 years now. Yet it's citizens chose differently. So I disagree with your answer.

[HEyHEY]

56. Not to mention we jumped in the important war first

The "Almighty peace saving USA" waited a couple years

[HEyHEY]

55. No buddy, it was Britian's Military strength

[The Flaming Red Head]

29. Canada is not all that left

what about all the neo nazis and kkk in Canada?

[HEyHEY]

57. Not really a noticable group of people

[HamdenRice]

32. Two word answer: ...... THE ....... SOUTH .....

Canada does not have to deal with Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina and so forth. Sorry to our southern DUers, but the South really is a different country mentally, and it skews American politics and policy far to the right -- on militarism, racism, sexism, anti-science-ism, religion, abortion, and fear of "godless socialism" (like universal health care and adequate schools). It will be interesting to read this much hyped new book about Metro vs Retro regions of the country.

I grew up in NYC, but went south every summer to the grandparents farm. What a culture shock. Most southerners, for example, don't believe in evolution, etc. It is always a pleasant shock when the country southerners I meet grudgingly admit that the world is round and not flat.

If the US didn't have a south, we would be more like western Europe or Canada.

I've been doing a lot of research about the history of Virginia and come to the conclusion that it goes back to slavery and the civil war. After the war, the south decided to starve schools of educational funding in order to keep freed slaves exploitable, and in the process dumbed down their own poor white population. I hate to put it bluntly, but in general, the south is a "dumb" region -- although of course not every southerner is stupid.

Also because the south lost the civil war and still hates Yankees, we have this ludicrous political system in which every president, Democrat or Republican has to be a southerner, or the southerners won't support him -- think of the last 40 years Johnson, Carter, Bush I (phoney southerner), Clinton, Bush II (phoney southern 2), as well as contenders, like Gore. On occasion, they will support a westerner like Reagan or Nixon.

I will be sooooo glad if we can elect a northern -- read intelligent and fluent in normal English -- president.

But I think the reason Kerry is not way ahead in the polls against the moron in chief is simply that he is from the north.

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. it's cold up there

who commits crimes when its cold out?

;)

[Octafish]

34. November 22, 1963

These FBI memos demonstrate George Herbert Walker Bush had something to do with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Bush has been involved with everything ever since -- from the Bay of Pigs/Operation 40 to promoting Vietnam War to Watergate to October Surprise to Reagan Assassination attempt to Borrow and Spend penuring of the middle class to the S&L looting to BCCI to arming Iraq and Gulf War 1. His son continues the family tradition with Selection 2000, transfering the middle class wealth to the richest 1-percent, 9-11 terror and the illegal Iraq Invasion.

What made it all possible? There was a coup by the "War Party" on November 22, 1963.

This memo demonstrates that withing minutes of JFK's murder, Bush phoned the FBI to rat out one "JAMES PARROTT."



This FBI memo from J Edgar Hoover mentions "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" pretty much cleared the anti-Castro Cuban community in Miami of involvment in the JFK assassination. Sure.




SOURCE:

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

[tabasco]

37. I don't know but we will need our Canadian friends' help ...

with cleaning up the latest disaster created by the neocons.

I suspect Canada's ties with Europe allowed them to develop by incorporating the lessons learned from European history.

Somewhere along the line, Americans decided they were vastly different from Europeans. As a result, we might have to repeat the terrible mistakes of European history before we realize we're not different at all.

[theophilus]

38. Slavery.......and it's aftermath.

Slavery, the Civil War, white phobias manifested by various acts of
racism. These things have resulted from the social cancer of slavery that we have never really cured as a country. Now our educational system is in serious decline and our future is not bright. Very, very sad. What might have been........?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. And Canada, as a British colony, abolished slavery when Britain did

i.e. much earlier than the U.S.

To me, the difference between the U.S. and Canada was epitomized in a single sentence on a Canadian TV program from the 1970s called *Seeing Things,* which was about a psychic detective. In one episode, he catches some people spying for the Soviet Union, and he says to them, "How could you do this? This is one of the greatest countries in the world."

You know what the sentence would have been on an American TV show, don't you? It would have been "this is the greatest country in the world."

[The Flaming Red Head]

41. Fascism alive and well in Canada

Here's a link if you don't believe me.

http://bethuneinstitute.org/documents/newface.html

[Spazito]

42. These are groups are so small they don't even qualify as fringe...

and, as is very obvious, have NO effect on policy decisions that are made.

If one were to search they would find these minute groups everywhere and they mean squat.

[The Flaming Red Head]

44. Pretending like its not there won't make it go away n/t

[Swede]

43. These fringe groups have no influence on policy.

There are nuts everywhere, even in this thread.

[The Flaming Red Head]

46. I'm not bashing all of Canada just some of it

remember that when you talk about US southerners.

[Swede]

49. Canada went left,America went right.

That was my original post,I never said anything else.

[HEyHEY]

89. by your logic

We could say the US went left because a couple of Communists live in San Fransico

[The Flaming Red Head]

47. read the link

there's more, too if you care to look it up.



http://bethuneinstitute.org/documents/newface.html

[Spazito]

50. I read the link....

and, as I said, it is a minute grouping of nuts that can be found anywhere and everywhere that have NO effect on anything. I am not sure what your point is regarding these obscure groups or even how your post relates to Swede's opening post on what made Canada go left and the US right.

[HEyHEY]

90. Hey, when did Heddy Fry start posting here?

[Spazito]

93. ROFL!

Good one!

[HEyHEY]

94. I thought someone might clue in

;-)

[seabeyond]

45. canada went left cause they watched in horror u.s.'s right

wink

[canuckforpeace]

51. links...

to a couple of book reviews on a good book I read on the topic a while back

http://www.the-cma.org/council/fire.cfm
http://www.temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/17102003/connections/c3.html

[HEyHEY]

58. Welcoem to DU

A fellow canuck! Where are ya from?

[canuckforpeace]

62. Thanks...

Northern B.C.. Originally Vancouver

[HEyHEY]

69. Cool I'm from Vancouver too!

Living in the interior now!

I grew up in Port Moody!

[LiberalCat]

59. The U.S. is a dumb jock country.

Canada is an intelligent country.

Different basic values.

[barb162]

63. demographs aren't the same at all

I think they're overwhelmingly white and middle class there. Not much problem with illegal immigration, etc., like the US has. I think back to the race riots of the 60s in the US. Does Canada even have black people? I don't believe I ever saw a black person when I was in Canada. They do have a large Asian population on the Wets Coast.

I think their murder and other crime rates are very low too, compared to the US.

[canuckforpeace]

64. Many blacks in Toronto

and we have plenty of immimgration problems. You are right that demographics aren't the the same though. See my earlier link.

[barb162]

67. I couldn't get the second link

but checked the first. There is a thing I always observe when I am in Canada and that is somehow or other I feel safer there. It is CIVILIZED, the people are just more civilized than here. And I see it in many ways. I don't notice a lot of jerks in Canada who will run you off the road to make a green light, I don't notice the reckless drivers like we have here, I notice more gardens, more flowers in the stores, etc. It is a whole host of things and it all adds up to a quieter more civilized society and atmosphere. I love Canada.

[Swede]

66. These stats sound about the same to me.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html


Canada:
British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%

USA:
white 77.1%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1.5%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.3%, other 4% (2000)

[barb162]

76. We have triple Asian and Black as Canada

And I suspect we have a LOT more Hispanics, which I guess would be put in under European under the CIA link. I think the US is more ethnically and racially diverse than Canada and I can be all wet too.

[HEyHEY]

97. OUr major centres are VERY diverse

Even more so than most US cities.
BUt only the Urban areas seem to be so.

[leesa]

65. I think the poison of the Southern Baptists had a lot to do with it

They are simply bigots in Sunday clothes. Same folks that used to have lynching parties Saturday night and then piously sit in church Sunday morning.

[DemBones DemBones]

99. You're painting all Southern Baptists with a broad brush, forgetting

that Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Jimmy Carter, along with numerous other good people, are Southern Baptists.

Kind of like the "only good nigra is a dead nigra" thinking that was behind those lynch parties you mention.

[proud patriot]

87. oops wrong thread

:crazy:

[The Flaming Red Head]

101. So who are you guys in Canada voting for Kerry or Bush?

Oh that's right you can't vote in the US.

You have no freedom speech in your own country so all you can do is run your mouths on our side of the border.

[Swede]

103. Your the only one running their mouth off.

Perhaps you should go back to freeperland. The only posters that ever tried to wedge US and Canadian DUers were jerks like you and your ilk on the right. You know nothing but hatred and attack.

[The Flaming Red Head]

105. I'm Lifelong voting southern democrat and I'm not a freeper

I just think you're being a little self righteous about how perfect and wonderful everything and everyone is in Canada. Your shit stinks in Canada, too.

[agincourt]

102. Mainly the Canadians,

didn't have a big slave trader political faction in the south. If the US never had slave-owner political machine, we would be more liberal.

[Junkdrawer]

104. Mostly, it's the Military....

If Canada had the world's mightiest military, all the forces of world wealth would have made a play at taking over Canada's government.