I get it...Misogyny is now "Cool" ... Smirky let the dogs out.

[Ripley]

Martha Stewart - made an "example" for crimes far less than Bush himself did with Harken, and oh, yeah a guy named Kenny Boy.

Mary K. Letourneau - a woman who has done far more time than most male rapists. (Edited original line that was a mistake.)

Lyndie England - She is vilified by the media because she was in the pictures and came from "trailer trash." Yet what about the guy she had sex with? What about the guys who took her picture? What about the MALES in charge of her unit?

Theresa H Kerry - Shove it vs. Go Fuck Yourself. Nuf said.

Whoopie Goldberg - Comedian makes joke at fundraiser, loses huge endorsement campaign and is once again vilified by the media, while Dennis Miller and a hundred other schmuck men make the same types of jokes about Kerry on TV and radio daily and get pay raises.

Linda Rondstadt - Yeah, I heard Don Henley endured some gripes too. But was he thrown out on the street of the place he was playing and vilified in the media?

It seems quite obvious to me that GOP has blast faxed their troops into taking women down. Of course this is in addition to the maggots coming out of the dark corners making outrageous racist, homophobic and anti-non-Christian remarks because they feel emboldened.

But the sheer joy that the media takes in setting aside a special attack machine for women who behave outside the Stepford Wife "norm" (according to their world view) is bothering me. I know most thinking women feel this change. It's like the 3rd major Backlash since the 1970's. We even see it here on DU. x(

[pocket]

1. Mary K. Letourneau

BS. She took advantage of a 13 year old child, one who is still messed up in the head.

As for L. England, she should get life in prison along with her whole chain of command.

[Ripley]

3. The point is about how many men get that kind of coverage?

How often do you see a case like this shown for years on the news, in made for TV movies, etc. when it has involved a man? Name one. Yet, I am positive statistics will bear me out that this has happened far more often with male teachers and female students. Hell, I can name 4 in the last 6 months in my state that I know of....that got a small article in the paper...not national news coverage.

2. Life in prison for Lynndie and her whole chain of command? Yeah. How many men have been convicted for that participation. Know what they look like and where they grew up?

[pocket]

4. one so far

he pled, so it was quick. I forget what he got, but it was something like 10 years.

Women make bigger headlines because male criminals are so commonplace.

[Snoggera]

17. He was sentenced to one year

but can't remember his name right this minute. I'm sure a google will provide it.

As for women, this is part of a psychological campaign to diminish their status and confidence within society in general. Those with low self-esteem tend to vote repuke or not at all.

edited to add:
"The first sentence has come down in the Abu Ghraib abuse story—Jeremy Sivits gets a year in prison and a bad conduct discharge"

[jdj]

Excellent point about the voting behavior.

Thanks, let's let go of the vagina dentata fears and concentrate on the bottom line, how she votes.

Wow, the way you talk, you'd think this was a POLITICAL message board or something.

[One_Life_To_Give]

34. Bit of a Stretch?

As for women, this is part of a psychological campaign to diminish their status and confidence within society in general. Those with low self-esteem tend to vote repuke or not at all.


The results may not always seem just. But I don't beleive in a broad based conspiracy to marginalize women so repukes can win this Nov.

[Snoggera]

37. It's not a conspiracy

it's a plan. Take away the right to choose is only the most overt sign of the thinking behind those that do indeed wish to marginalize women. Women generally vote in greater numbers for a democratic candidate.

[KFC]

18. Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson...

Raping men get probably 100x the coverage as the teacher molester. Your point is painfully stupid.

[Ripley]

21. Gee thanks for calling me stupid!

A fine example of our Liberal Men on DU!

[jdj]

25. What? Where?

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

40. Not you. Your point.

I do/say stupid things all the time.

I just think defending that molester is wrong. She was originally sentenced to 6 months in jail - very light. Then she molests the boy again in her car when she gets out. Those things tend to piss off judges.

[SemperEadem]

120. you weren't called stupid

the point you made was called stupid. There is a difference.

[Ripley]

127. OK...it was only "my point" that was painfully stupid...

Not me. But, some of you who defend your beloved sports figures as Heroes are painfully stupid as well...

I'll never understand why that basketball hero who has a beautiful wife and a baby of what? 6 weeks old? is in a Fancy Hotel and decides to fuck a room cleaner?

But that is not the point of my thread.

[Bonobo]

128. "Room Cleaner"? Well, pardon her for working for a living!

Methinks there is a whiff of elitism in the room.

[Ripley]

130. Oh puhleeze.

Was that not her job or what? Should I call her a hotel engineer?

Your whiff is unsubstantiated.

The elitism might be those who pretend to be lawyers on DU.

[SemperEadem]

129. seeing that I was defending no one in my post

and I certainly did not address anything regarding the defense of beloved sports figures as heroes, as your accusations assert.

[Ripley]

131. To answer you...Yes there is a Difference...

I spoke my mind okay?

Am I supposed to only adress your non-post with more non-posts?

You know what? My pet it sick and I'm gonna take care of him......

[SemperEadem]

138. no, but you should really try to pay attention to who you're

waxing vulgar against and not spray the whole crowd for something someone else said.

[Pithlet]

24. Aside from insulting the OP

Your point is weak. Kobe and Tyson are very rich and public figures, so they would naturally get a lot of coverage. They didn't get the coverage they did merely because of the acts they allegedly committed.

[MISSDem]

60. They get coverage but is either one in prison for their crime. And

they have attacked the female in the Bryant case until she is ready to drop the charges.

[theboss]

104. Tyson went to jail

Kobe is probably going to get off.

And I think people like Scott Peterson and the guy in Utah who thought he was Jesus got a lot of negative coverage for crimes against women.

I think this whole argument is really really stretching things.

[aquart]

6. Miss the point much?

It's rough when we don't all understand when we're being manipulated.

[JVS]

2. Letourneau's crime was not questionable at all

13 olds do not have the legal authority to grant consent.

[Ripley]

5. Okay, I'll grant you that.

So do you think this now adult man should not be able to make decisions about his own children and their mother.

As I said, this is about the coverage and the outrage. Why is it that no one has anything to say except "oh the horrible sex-crazed rapist woman."

Yet, I don't hear any outrage about the demonization of women who statistically are off the bottom of the chart in these incidents when compared to men, yet are Poster Children for these Crimes.

Media Matters folks. And just to say, well it's common for men to do these things, so they don't cover them is BULLSHIT. Anyway how are Linda and Whoopie criminals?

[pocket]

7. "when compared to me"

you must get up very early

:)

[Ripley]

9. I fixed that....What a stupid typo huh?

:dunce:

[Carson]

8. The boy Letourneau molested was

actually 12 years old at the time the "affair" began. She became pregnant with his child, was put into prison, released upon orders to stay away from the boy, was caught having sex with the same boy again, became pregnant and was sentenced to 7 years for not just having sex with a minor but for violating the conditions of her parole.

The woman is a pathetic, sick person. I have zero sympathy for her.

[Ripley]

11. This isn't a thread just about the teacher.

I don't have any sympathy for her either.

But dammit that's not my point! Do you really not know how often girls and women are raped, kidnapped and killed in this country? Yet this story has everyone in a tizzy.

I can give you a recent story from my state about incest between a father and daughter (he's about 50, she's about 30) and he did the same thing...parole violation to impregnate her again.

Seen that on TV?

[Carson]

15. I think

you have answered your own question.

"...know how often girls and women are raped, kidnapped and killed in this country?"

Yes, it happens all too often. The reason the Letourneau case was such big media is because it was "unusual". A woman taking sexual advantage of a boy. It is a rarer occurance, therefore more media coverage.

I personally don't think it is because of misogyny, but rather because the Media knows what sells. And I agree, it sucks but to label it hatred of women is another matter.

(Also, from your original post, how is the "rape" questionable?)

[Ripley]

19. THAT IS BS.

To me if something is epidemic like the number of girls and women raped and sold as sex slaves or child pornographers...it should be covered!

This is exactly what I meant by posting this thread. People say "oh the media knows that sensationlism sells." Really? Like the war going on Iraq? How much of that do you see on CNN?

Funny how they always pick the stories that make the women out to be either abnormal monsters or pure-hearted victims.

But I guess it's just an innocent situation. You're right no misogyny in America, TV told me so. :eyes:

[smirkymonkey]

54. You're right...

Diminishing the status of women is part of their agenda. Most men do not see or feel the effects of what this administration and the media have contributed in this regard. Just like most white people don't notice the daily racism that minorities encounter everywhere.

It is so much a part of the fabric of the political lanscape these days that it seems as though it is simply the way it's always been. It's not. It gets worse and worse every day. I, for one, am sick of seeing it, hearing it and putting up with it.

I think that female rage in this country is reaching a boiling point and if it continues we will see that "hell has no fury..."

[Pithlet]

58. Not only do they not see it

but when confronted with the issue, get defensive. They see discussions like this as an attack against them. Then, discourse shuts down. It's very frustrating. It happens with issues of sexism and racism on this board a lot.

[smirkymonkey]

134. Exactly, You would think that if they

didn't think it applied to them, they wouldn't be so defensive, would they? It's impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who simply won't hear what you have to say.

Kind of like arguing with a freeper. Rarely does it get through.

[Ripley]

61. Madonna or The Whore.

One or the other is the way we are supposed to be.

That is exactly the way the media portrays women. They are not allowed to be business women who made mistakes and will pay the price (Martha)..instead they psychoanalyze that perhaps it was somehow wrong that a woman got so much money and so much success. I could not even believe the stuff they were saying about her (AND I AM NOT DEFENDING HER FOR BREAKING THE LAW ... to those of you dense enough to not get it)...

"Oh look, her $1,000 bag matches her umbrella. Hee hee."

Do we see this coverage of Ken Lay? How much did that suit and watch cost him that he wore in handcuffs? And really now, it is not just Ken Lay. There have been hundreds of crooks in business that were Superstars on the cover of Time and Business Week and spoken of as true Gods in the Business world on CNBC who have been busted. Yet, no one can recall seeing their mugs on TV, or their outrageous spending accounts, except for the guy who threw that most ostentatious party in Greece while looting his company...but then again, his case was thrown out right? He's a free dude. Yeah! He's free, Martha's going to jail...I feel so much better about corporate reform now.

It most definitely is getting worse.

[smirkymonkey]

135. I think it's time for the Female Warrior

Archetype to show her face in the world again!

I'm ready. }(

[0007]

140. You got my vote on your argument Ripley,

go girl go

[jdj]

26. I think it may be that it falls in the "hot for teacher" male fantasy

Male fantasy is the most marketable thing on this planet.

[shadu]

10. At the time, he bragged about it to his friends

And, apparently, they are together again.
How many male rapists go from prison into the arms
of their victim?

Personally, I think both teacher and student
are human trash.

[JVS]

12. To paraphrase Walter Sobchak: 12 year olds, dude

Bragging about it to your friends might cast doubt on the situation when you are of age, but as a kid it doesn't mean squat.

[0007]

141. Most Christians believe all people are redeemable!!

[KFC]

13. Letourneau should still be in jail

She molested a sixth-grader and fucked him up for life. A sixth-grader. I'd give her 20 more years.

[Warpy]

44. I hate to point out the obvious

but apparently the guy in question doesn't feel particularly messed up.

She's done more time than male child rapists generally see. The kid is now a legal adult. It's time to refocus your attention onto the Bush appointistration, the economy, and the war against Iraq.

I know, it's easier to hate women. That's what they want you to do.

[TrustingDog]

14. and Janet Jackson's booby... That non-issue.

[Guaranteed]

53. That act itself was mysoginistic.

Of course, the outrage over it wasn't because of THAT...

[xxqqqzme]

16. give up, no one

seems 2 understand, willfully it seems 2 me, what U R saying. Squatter released the dogs when he re-instated the 'global gag rule' fresh off his oath of office. It took senate action to return coverage 4 birth control pills 4 female fed employees 4 crissake.

We have had 3+ years of assault after assault on women - incentive to marry anyone? I am not at all pleased w/ the lack of enthusiasm the democratic party has shown in responding to these attacks. Emily's List is great and I have no complaint w/ them, but we need more. It is time 4 women 2 have their own political party, damnit. WE R the only ones who will look out 4 women!

[Ripley]

20. Thanks for noticing.

It is blatantly willful. These same folks would probably like to tell black people racism doesn't exist in America either.

Like I said...some DUers show their true colors when this issue is brought up...

[Lerkfish]

133. some of it is willful...some of it is subconscious...

...misogyny, just like racism is not always recognized accurately by the person committing the offense.
Some of the more racist people will claim they are not racist....same thing.

the trap is assuming that therefore all men or all white people are offensive. The other trap is thinking its fixable. The only way that changes is if the offender wises up ON THEIR OWN, unfortunately. Until they realize their attitude is wrong, they see no reason to change it.

[MISSDem]

64. A big AMEN!

A lot of men say that they understand but just like whites cannot understand the racism that blacks undergo all of the time, neither can men understand what women go thru.

[Pithlet]

22. People are missing your point

Although when I saw that you included Letourneau, I knew I would scroll down and see people saying "She deserved it" rather than addressing your point of the post, which was not that any of the women weren't deserving of any punishment they got. And, sure enough...

[JVS]

30. Perhaps the point is better made by not counting those who get...

what they deserve as victims.

[Pithlet]

32. The point is not the guilt

I didn't agree with the assessment of the OP about Letourneau, but since the point was the coverage the case is receiving, and not Letourneau's guilt, it is irrelevant. An argument could be made that the coverage of a case that is several years old, about something that commonly occurs in schools across the country, is getting more coverage because she's a woman. You could agree or disagree with that assessment, but focusing on the subjects guilt doesn't make sense unless the argument IS about her guilt or innocence.

I was making the observation because whenever the issue of coverage of women and minorities in the media gets discussed here at DU, one can always count on people making excuses for the disparity and accusing the OP of reading too much into it, or jumping on the OP, nitpicking about some point that has little or nothing to do with the point the OP is trying to make. It is just an observation of mine, and I was pointing out that it was happening yet again.

[JVS]

35. The point is that the OP chose a terrible way to make a point

Say you want to criticize the death penalty. Then one would be wise to make the point without choosing victims of the death penalty with whom people don't sympathize.

[Pithlet]

36. No, because it is irrelevant

The death penalty is wrong regardless of who it is applied to. Pointing out someone who is actually guilty of the crime does not weaken the argument against the death penalty.

Unequal coverage based on sexism and racism is wrong no matter who it is applied to. Her examples do not weaken the case itself. I may have chosen different examples to make the case, but the case itself does have some merit. If one disagrees, it would be more effective to argue the point, not detract from it by arguing something that is irrelevant. Doing so might even give the impression that the person arguing doesn't have a case.

[JVS]

38. It is poor rhetorical technique

Which is very relevant

[Pithlet]

39. It may be

But it still isn't the point the OP is trying to make.

[JVS]

41. In order to make one's point well, one should use good form

Pissing and moaning because people don't get a point is lame. Make your point in a good manner and then there will be no problem.

[Pithlet]

43. I thought her point was very clear

I think those that didn't get the point failed to do so for reasons other than form.

[JVS]

45. The point was poorly made. She put in Latourneau which was tossing...

a handgrenade into her own statement. One must be careful to make a point without setting up your own undoing.

For instance, pro choice arguments are best focused around terminating unwanted pregnancies because of rape or because the parents' genes would likely result in terminally ill offspring, than talking about people who would abort in order to select gender of their children.

It's about putting the best foot forward.

[Pithlet]

50. And if one wants to argue the actual point

One would best stick from picking apart stuff that is irrelevant. No one said "Letourneau is a bad example" they said "She's innocent!" as if that negates the point. It does not.

I think Letourneau got everything she deserved, and I hope England gets the full maximum penalty. I still think the OP has a point. It seems that no one wants to talk about that however, and instead wants to pick apart the irrelevant crap. I'm calling them on it.

[Ripley]

51. Excuse me...I had to run out and pick up the cat from the vet...

I see I had someone defending my post here, and that was not my intention.

You're right, my statement about teacher was wrong. I corrected it.

But you clearly only want to discuss my "mistake" not the issue at hand.

That is a well-worn out RW MO.

[xxqqqzme]

48. I didn't have

any problem discerning the point Ripley was trying 2 make. I AM having a problem w/ arguing that the argument is flawed instead of paying attention 2 the message.

THERE IS A RENEWED ATTACK ON WOMEN courtesy of squatter pandering 2 his rong wing rabid, religious wacko base.

[lpbk2713]

23. Does this mean Andrew "Dice" Clay is going on a "comeback" tour?

Damn, I hope not.

[jdj]

29. He's been back.

He lost weight, died his hair, and now goes by the name "Eminem".
He realized his mistake before was not being to controversial (i.e. misogynist), instead it was not being controversial enough.

[LittleApple81]

27. NOT ONLY BUSH: every RW Fundie Ignorant organization. I posted

yesterday about eeeewwww Hannity & colmes show.

They were going to discuss a book by "Dr. Laura" where they propound feminism is ruining marriage....

WOMEN: TO ARMS! not guns but we have ways of fighting.

Somebody even suggested we should create a WOMAN'S party... otherwise we will never get any real power.
I am getting to that point too.

The link for my post from yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2154224&mesg_id=2154224

[smirkymonkey]

55. Ever read "Lysistrata"?

Hmmmm........

[jdj]

28. Don't forget there are alot of trolls and disruptors here.

They get tombstoned fast when they make rascist remarks, or are blatanly homophobic. Unfortunately, because this generation of young men seems to feel overly "victimized" by women (when in fact they were victimized by Reaganomics before most of them were even born), misogyny doesn't really count as a prejudice here, so the "libertarians" are allow to piss all over posts like this one with abandon.


But anyone who denies that this is a tactic of the right-wing is a complete freaking idiot. Of course, my personal standard is that anyone who denies this is a tactic of the right-wing IS right-wing.


edit: Wow. I just realized something. The ones who aren't truly trolls have fallen for a right-wing tactic, as well, fuck poor men up the ass and get them to blame women for it. 'Yeah, it's really women that are coming after you boys, just like the immigrants and the gays. Nope, it's not us fat cats up here at the top of the rung, wringing every dime out of you we can get and then hanging you out to dry when we are done. Well, at least you've still got your social security. For now anyway.' (tick, tick, tick...)

[skygazer]

31. You have a point

But I would argue that it's not neccessarily the GOP to blame (God, I can't believe I just said that!). The media know what stirs the public - it's just like the whole Laci Peterson thing. Pretty white pregnant girl gets killed so we have to get updates every frigging day. Lynddie England sells papers, the guys do not - yes, because she's a female. Unfortunately, that plays into the whole sexist stereotypes of society as a whole, not just in the GOP.

Oh, and the Ronstadt thing is totally overblown - she was not escorted off the stage. She was asked after the show not to return.

[Pithlet]

33. I do think the GOP shares in the blame

Particularly since it is so many of their spokespeople whom they endorse that spread the anti-feminist and sometimes downright misogynist viewpoint. The media is now dominated more than ever by corporations who donate heavily to the GOP and count on them for legislation that helps their bottom line.

The OP made a very good point somewhere in this thread that if the media were concerned solely with ratings, and would report on anything sensationalist, then we'd see a lot more headlining coverage about the damage this war is doing, and the cover ups by the administration, and less flag waving and false patriotism and apologizing for the administration.

[Ripley]

52. The OP thanks you for your eloquent postings.

Sorry, I had to run to the vet in horrible traffic to get my cat from the vet. I come back and see I'm accused of defending the teacher and criticized for including her as a "grenade" and ruining my whole message.

I'm just not a very good wordsmith and I corrected what I said about the teacher case. Yet I'm blasted here as tho I've personally attacked every last man on the planet.

Sheesh, I knew this was gonna get some ire up, but I had no idea.

[DrWeird]

42. Oh, give me a break.

The reason Letourneau got so much attention was because it was an "interesting" story. And if anything they gave her positive coverate and made her look like the poor, misunderstood lover instead of the child molestor that she is. If she had been a man and raped a 12-year-old girl and got her pregnant on two different occasions, people would be demanding life, and expressing their hope that he gets repeatedly raped and liberals advocating castration. I've never seen anybody say they hope Letourneau gets raped or sterilized for what she did.

Lyndie England? Deserves everything she gets, and more. Frankly, I'd rather see her up in front of a firing squad. Why is she getting the most coverage, first off she's not getting as much coverage as she should be, but the reason she's getting more coverage is because she's the one in all the torture photos giving that big old grin and thumbs up. As for Graner, he's being prosecuted in Iraq. As for higher up the chain, they probably won't get prosecuted either. Including that general woman who was in charge of the prison and was directly responsible for the whole thing.

[TeacherCreature]

46. We even see it here on DU.

This is just too ironic.

[DrWeird]

47. See what on DU?

Are you calling me a misogynist?

[smirkymonkey]

57. If the shoe fits....

there seems to be a pattern of misogyny through your posts.

[DrWeird]

62. links please.

For example?

[smirkymonkey]

122. I am so sorry....

I had you confused with someone else. I am at work and very flustered today, so please forgive me.

I have looked at a few of your posts and realized my error. Please accept my apology. :dunce:

[DrWeird]

80. Still waiting.

I'd like that accusation backed up, please.

What's the hold up? Searching through archives? It's going to take a long, long time that way.

[theboss]

105. For what it's worth, I agree with you

Even though you are a mysoginist and I am apparently a racist.

[DrWeird]

113. Hey, I never called you a racist for disagreeing with me.

Your statements that you think people who speak ebonics are stupid thugs, and your agreeing with Bill Cosby's thoroughly racist statements have nothing to do with this.

[DrWeird]

106. Alright, how about just an example.

I don't tell need a link.

Just give me an example of what I wrote that was misogynistic.

Either that or apologize, one or the other.

[sendero]

49. I would suggest....

... that the GOP vilify women at their peril. They constitute a really large voting bloc :)

[Cleita]

56. Yes, I'm very bothered by it.

I agree with you a hundred percent. You'd have to be a Moran not to see the unfairness in how those women have been treated regardless of their guilt.

Having lived through the June Cleaver(Leave It To Beaver), Margaret Anderson (Father Knows Best), Harriet Nelson (Ozzie and Harriet)and Donna Stone (The Donna Reed Show), role models of the perfect wife and mother, I think it's time for us women to take action. I don't want to relive the misogynism of my youth and no other woman should have to.

[MISSDem]

59. I agree 100%. See the first reply to your post proves just that.

These WOMEN are beasts and need to rot in prison but men who do this and worse are not punished. How man men are walking the streets who have raped children? I ask you. You know it is true.

[JVS]

63. The original line said that her guilt was questionable.

That is what triggered the rapid responses. Not some kind of belief that she should be punished harder

[Ripley]

65. Oh, so we're back to attacking the OP?

Yes, that would be me. And yes I have already said it was a mistake to call that situation "questionable."

Why do you want to continue to attack me instead of address the ISSUE of my post?

[JVS]

66. Come off it! Merely pointing out why the conversation turned to MKL

Because you practically threadjacked yourself with that comment

[Ripley]

70. Come off of what?

I said I was wrong to have said that. I plead ignorant to how old the boy was...I thought he was a teenager! I didn't know the details and once I was informed he was 12 I changed my position.

That is called being informed and admitting an error. Something you clearly don't understand.

[JVS]

73. I'm not trying to badger you. I just wanted to point out to...

The person who posted #59 which says " I agree 100%. See the first reply to your post proves just that", that there is a reason that the conversation immediately turned to MKL.

We now agree on MKL, but the reason that the first comments were about her was that you asserted a possibility of innocence. A possibility that you now retract.

[Ripley]

75. Do I have to repeat myself?

You seem unwilling to answer the gist of my thread.

But rely heavily on your "better wordsmithing" to attack me for a statement which I retracted when I was informed of the boys age.

[JVS]

83. I never commented on the gist of your thread.

I commented on an incorrect detail. You complained that people were ignoring your point. To make your point you should have your details in order.

You point was understood and I had no comment on it. It sounds reasonable. But no you keep complaining that people took issue with a fact that you had wrong as though a difference of opinion on a fact, which you now admit was incorrect, as them ignoring your point. Your point has not been ignored and neither has you error.

[Ripley]

87. What utter gibberish....

But no you keep complaining that people took issue with a fact that you had wrong as though a difference of opinion on a fact,...

Prior to answering you in the last 10 minutes, I have not complained at all.

[JVS]

88. #65 was a complaint and over 10 minutes ago

[DrWeird]

67. You fucked up and got called on it.

In fact, you and others spent quite a few posts attacking people who called you out on your mistake. Rather viciously too.

[Pithlet]

69. It was irrelevant to the point

that was all that was being pointed out. There was no vicious attacking done.

[JVS]

71. It is very relavant to this point

" I agree 100%. See the first reply to your post proves just that"

The person who said that didn't see what was originally in the initial post and might not understand why people commented on MKL immediately.

[Ripley]

74. Oh yeah, the MKL issue is the HEART AND SOUL OF

this thread. Cause you want it to be that way. To say see...women can rape too!

You can't even comment once, not even fricking once on the subject at hand, you have to ATTACK ME!

[JVS]

76. It's the heart and soul of this thread because you foolishly made...

an incorrect assertion about her which has completely overshadowed what you wanted to say. And the more you keep arguing about it the more MKL becomes the central issue here.

[Ripley]

82. Aw shit, now you are implying I'm foolish, not just stupid.

How many freaking times do I have to say it:

The central issue of my erroneous sentence is only central to you my friend.

[JVS]

85. Saying MKL was innocent is foolish

You are the one making a big deal about your erroneous sentence.

[Ripley]

137. Just to set the record straight...I never EVER said she was

innocent.

So quit planting your bombs where you think they will do something..like garner more support for your hatred of ?

[Pithlet]

84. It overshadowed it because YOU belabored the point.

Instead of discussing what Ripley actually wanted to discuss. You aren't the only one who did this, or ever does stuff like this. No one wants to discuss these issues. They just want to shut their ears to the problem and act defensive, instead.

[JVS]

86. I can discuss what I please. If you or Ripley have problems with that...

then that is your problem

[Ripley]

90. Wow, why are you injecting my name into a response to

Pithlet?

When have we attacked you? Yet you feel no qualms about continuing an attack.

[JVS]

91. Because both of you seem to be contending that MKL has been...

discussed enough in this thread. So I mentioned you as well. Hardly an attack

[Pithlet]

92. I am so done

I have never told you that you can't discuss anything you want, or even hinted that I thought you have no right.

You're running out of arguments, so you're resorting "deal with it" This, from the person who was arguing about making effective arguments. Feh.

[JVS]

93. You somehow feel that I want to refute the initial point

I have no intention to do so. Simply wanted to refute the incorrect detail and later the condemnation of those who would refute the incorrect detail.

[Pithlet]

101. Nope, I've never felt that

You haven't even shown the slightest inclination to discuss the initial point at all, so where would I get that?

But, I do not believe that you "simply" wanted to correct a detail.

[JVS]

102. Well I did just want to correct a detail

until people jumped on me for doing so. Then I was forced to argue with them because they couldn't take correcting a detail for what it is and had to start attributing other motives

[Pithlet]

110. It could be

because you wouldn't concede that it wasn't the point. Therefore, it gave a very strong impression that you thought it did, and negated everything the poster said.

[Ripley]

95. For real.

It's unbelievable how they hijack the thread and continue to do so and plead their concern over the student's victimhood.

Ignorance is rampant!

[JVS]

96. It is unbelievable that you will concede to being incorrect on a point...

and then ascribe people's desire to point out facts as part of some Right-wing scheme

[Ripley]

103. Oh, so admitting mistakes because of lack of info is...

now something we don't honor at DU. What the fuck do you want?

You know, I'm gonna let that stand, but say I apologize for the timid.

Your desire to point out facts seems to only be to point out that my opinion on this case was wrong, because I was ill informed.

What purpose does it provide us to continue this conversation?

[JVS]

109. Admitting mistakes while attiributing nefarious motives to those...

who are correcting the mistakes is extremely rude. I owe you no apology. Why have you been defensive about this?

[Ripley]

118. I see. You agree with my original post?

If that is true, why do you spend so much effort knocking me?

[Pithlet]

79. I was responding to the accusation of vicious attacks.

A common tactic when anyone is trying to discuss things like this. Someone brings up feminist issue. Someone opposes. OP and those that agree argue back. WE'RE the ones vicisouly attacking! Funny how that always works.

I'm just pissed that nothing to do with sexims or feminism can be remotey discussed without these patterns emerging. There's no problem! We're just overreacting, and attacking men or anyone else who doesn't agree with us! Old, tired bullshit.

[DrWeird]

81. Somebody called me a mysogynist because I disagreed with OP.

Two people actually. Others were given the same treatment.

Sounds like an overreaction to me.

[Pithlet]

89. Defensive

You're being defensive instead of actually trying to listen to what anyone has to say. Your very first post was about how the MKL was just because it was an exciting story, and that England deserves all the time she can get. Nothing about how there may actually be a problem with the media and GOP, and the message and portrayal of women may actually be spiraling downward. No, we can't discuss that, because the fact that MKL and England are actually guilty is apparently more important, even if that wasn't the point in the first place.

At least you were arguing what is actually the point on the MKL front. You disagree that the coverage was sexist in motivation. You could be right, although any time anyone brings up an issue of media coverage when it comes to women and minorities, the old "it' only because it's an exciting story" excuse always comes up. Like there aren't a million exciting stories occurring every day. We're supposed to believe that the disproportion accurately reflects society. There really are more black criminals. There really are more pretty white women murdered and abducted.

[DrWeird]

97. Oh, I agree that there's patterns of misogyny in the media.

I felt no reason to repeat the obvious. The best example I've seen in this thread is the Janet Jackson debacle.

Martha Stewart and Linda Ronstadt I'm a bit skeptical on. I've personally known several men guilty of insider trading, and they were run up the creek, and deservedly so. I doubt there's a disproportionate number of women being charged with corporate crime.

The idea of apologizing for Letourneau and England I find quite downright distasteful. That's why I posted what I did.

As for the patterns in these "sexism threads" it seems to be this: Somebody posts a thread with rather spurious claims of sexism, for example: "Mary Kay Latourneau was treated unfairly because she was a woman" or "I can't believe all these people are saying Edwards' daughter is hot, that's so sexist."
Somebody shows up to disagree with those statements. People disagree are labeled sexist, either by the original poster or somebody else. Chaos insues.

[JVS]

99. Agree 100%

[Pithlet]

107. That isn't how it happened.

OP brings up issue of misogyny in the media. Instead of discussing that issue, people jump on the inaccuracy in the post, and claim that negates the OPs point, and also serves to distract the discussion. I and others point this out. We do so because it is par for the course here. You did not do this, you actually addressed the point, although I and others disagree with you. You may agree about misogyny in the media, but you came across as dismissive of the whole issue in your first post in this thread, which is why you may have had the accusation thrown your way. A lot of us are tired of the dismissive here at DU, and may sometimes overreact.

No one was apologizing for England. The OP did sound apologetic about MKL, but retracted that statement. Either way, it had nothing to do with what the OP was talking about. The OP was trying to discuss an important issue. Heaven forbid!

I disagree with you about Martha and Linda, but they are certainly debatable points. Wouldn't it have been nice to discuss them?

[DrWeird]

115. "wouldn't it be nice to discuss them?"

Certainly. But it doesn't make for a civil discussion to call people misogynists for pointing out major flaws in the OPs original thesis.

[Pithlet]

117. Again, that isn't what happened.

Name one time where I, for instance, called anyone a misogynist. I don't think the OP did, either, although I may have forgotten.

Also, can you explain why it's better to point out a flaw that really has nothing to do with the OPs point more conducive to a civil discourse than, say actually addressing the OPs point? I, for one, think it is usually a tactic reserved for those who want to argue the OPs point, but have nothing to back it up. Again, I'm referring more to another poster than to you, because that isn't the tactic you used, really.

There may certainly have been some unfair name calling. But, I'm tired of the typical responses to issues like these, and there are others, too. If some would actually try to look at the issue and understand it, even if they don't agree with it, rather than being dismissive, or arguing points that aren't even relevant, I think that would also go a LONG way towards civil discussion.

[Ripley]

112. WTF are you talking about?

Where in my posts did I apologize for the two women accused of crimes?

I simply said they get way more (can you say 10 fucking years for ML?) attention than any similar male criminal situations? And don't give me that Koby shit...she is not a rich famous sports figure.

Chaos is always insued by you guys.

[DrWeird]

114. She got attention because it was a soap opera.

People like soap operas, that's why Scott Peterson and Lori Hacking are household names. That's the media for you.

Like I said earlier, if anything she got positive press because she was a woman. Had she been a man, people would be demanding that she'd get raped and castrated.

"Chaos is always insued by you guys."

Really? We posted to point out, what you now admit, was a mistake. Because of that, we got labelled as sexist. Seems to me it's "you guys" who are being uncivil and rude.

[Ripley]

119. I see. Soap Operas involve women...not men....

The national freaking News should inform Americans about female criminals, not male criminals (because it is commonplace).

How am I rude when I admitted a mistake?

[Ripley]

72. Bwaahhahahahah!

I vicously attacked who in this thread?

[DrWeird]

77. You insinuated that men who disagreed with you were sexist.

In that whole "lot's of liberal men here in DU" sarcastic line.

Several other people agreed with that sentiment.

Frankly, you apologized for a child molestor because she was a woman. Which quite honestly seems rather sexist to me, and more than a bit hypocritical, i.e. somebody should get off easy because of their gender. Hell, they didn't even commit a crime.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

68. Yep, reminds me of one of the major differences between Pukes and Dems

Pukes think a woman's place is in the house.

Dems think a woman's place is in the House and the Senate...

(note capitalizations)

[the_outsider]

78. Rush Limbaugh has contributed a lot to his "feminazi" cause over the years

I was listening to him today. When he was talking about a group of reporters giving some repug a hard time, he said "they were like a bunch of female mosquitoes - only the female mosquitoes bite.. just a fact, not a sexist remark or anything" and then chuckled. He is so infuriating and does it almost every day. He hates Theresa with a passion because she speaks her mind. Wish something could be done about it. I think he had a big role in making misogyny "cool" and fashionable in the conservative circles over the last 10-15 years. Never understood how some supposedly educated women could join their ranks and their pet causes.

[Pithlet]

94. But Mary Kay was guilty!

Where is your outrage?

[JVS]

98. Now that really has nothing to do with the post you responded to

[Pithlet]

111. I'm not surprised

that you would miss the sarcasm.

[Ripley]

100. Yes it's the female mosquitoes that are killing us!

Welcome to DU the outsider! :toast:

I wonder how many biologists could tell us about the number of male predators who do the killing?

Thanks for chiming in.....yes, Rush is a big part of why so many guys feel threatened and hate strong females.

[Tsiyu]

116. Well, let's try again

but I feel the same way. It's wrong to pick apart an argument, and to continue to deny women the right to express outrage at how we are treated with a double standard. If my fellow party members don't get that, we also are doomed.
Why is this such a hard topic to get play here? Is it too hard to deal with the truth?

[Ripley]

132. Good Golly You are new...

There is something wrong witb the system, but it doesn't get fixed.

And DU has some Systematic problems.

[donkeyotay]

121. wow! I'm amazed at the heat you've taken for this post

I agree with you. I think Pvt. England is being made a scapegoat, and her story is sensational exactly because of the cultural taboos captured in the photos. Nevermind who was holding the camera. Should we see the pictures we are told exist of rape and murder? Anal sex? No, we are not shown those pictures because they would reflect poorly on the Army, whereas this way we can dump all the shame on female trailer thrash. Just like Martha took the blame for Enron and Worldcom and all the white, republican crime still going on. And of course, General Karpinsky - that woman - is also to blame, none of this has anything to do with Feith or Rummy or Miller or Pappas or anyone male.

I apologize in advance for all the mistakes I have made in this post. After all, I am just a dumb, pissed-off woman.

So happy to be in freeperland.

Good luck, Ripley. Sounds like two decades of Limbaugh have really set this country back.

edited for at least some spelling, none of the content or attitude.

[Pithlet]

123. You spelled Army wrong.

You typed Armny. How can you even argue your point if you can't spell the name of one of the biggest armed forces of our country? Forget all that taboo mumbo jumbo. It's just a sensational story, nothing more. And I'm not a misogynist, dammit! Don't call me that :cry:

</sarcasm>

[DrWeird]

124. See, there you go.

Apologizing for the child molestor is a bit bigger of a mistake than a typo.

Here's another post that accuses people disagreeing with the OP as being misogynists (and freepers).

Just a bit ago you were asking how it was we were being misogynists, well there you go.

[Pithlet]

126. Hmmm

For someone who's biting wit and sarcasm is some of the best here on DU, you really can't take it, can you?

[Ripley]

136. Who apologized for her?

No one.

It is your distortion that says that.

Media coverage of women is the issue. Stay on point.

[donkeyotay]

125. weeping and nashing of teeth

Sob! I knew I didn't have anything worthwhile to say! Sorry, I would stick around, but I have to go bake cookies now.

;-)

[Behind the Aegis]

139. As it was, so shall it be!

Misogyny is not "cool" now...it has always been "cool!" Many, men AND women, fear strong and powerful women. It boils down to the concepts of what is 'masculine' and 'feminine.' For a woman to be strong, she is either a "bitch" or a "dyke." When she steps "out of line," then she is chastised for being "unlady-like." A "lady" being a subservient and weak being...as my mom says..."I am no fucking lady! I am a woman!" Women are NOT weak! I am a gay man and I love women (maybe not in the physical way)! Be proud and continue to fight the good, and honest fight!