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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:52 PM
Original message
CBS eve news showing 100s of cars/people lining up for free food...
the line (reminded me of the gas lines in 73) was chock-full of brand new cars, pickups and SUVs.

Something is wrong with this picture.

I'm not rich, but I could buy a gas guzzler if I wanted one...and I'm happy with my 38 MPG 1982 Honda Civic. The plane I usually fly gets "poor" mileage, true enough (about 8 MPG, but it does carry 8 people and gets them there five times faster than a car) so maybe I'm embracing a modicum of hypocrisy, but it seems that there is a bit of a disconnect regarding priorities with these Ohioans. JMO..
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Leveraged to the hilt
Things go along ok, squeaking by on credit card debt, until BOOM one of the two working yuppies loses a job.

Keeerraaassshhhhh.

Notes are behind on the shiney cars. Bankruptcy looming.....

Happens 1.5 million times per year.
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classics Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yep a high school friend of mine just got a new house.
$400,000 place. He literally brags about how he 'leveraged' himself into it.

It doesnt seem to bother him to be $750,000 in debt with no savings.
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is the beginnings of Bread Lines! Depression!
I don't know about anybody else but I know quite a few who can't find work! Its ugly out there!:bounce:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I wouldn't have thought so...
.... just a few months ago, but at this point I think that the odds of us entering into a deflationary depression are depressingly high.

If the economy does not turn around pretty quick, real estate is going to tumble and RE equity is, I fear, the last resort for a lot of people. When it goes away, look out below.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The economy cannot turn around w/Bush in office.
His "business" administration is crushing commerce and competition, trade, scientific research, any innovation that could bring in a buck to this country.

Investment money has fled our shores. It won't be back till George is long gone.
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. No one can predict the future.
Many of them might not have expected unemployment. They thought they would have plenty of money to feed their gas guzzler.Pity them that they were not also thinking of "community" when they bought their cars.
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LosinIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. You can't dump a car when you lose your job if .......
you owe more on it than it's worth. Doesn't make sense. So you just keep trying to keep up with the payments. Rob Peter to pay Paul and all sorts of other creative economic maneuvers.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Yes (PLEASE EVERYONE READ THIS MEA CULPA)...I had not thought
about that. I have bought exactly one 'brand new' car* in my 62 years and I neglected to realize how easy it is to get 'upside down' in the financing of one. I tend to go off half-cocked sometimes...and I apologize to those who have found themselves in a crappy situation.

* a 1970 Dodge Challenger
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is this another bash those who were well off before Bush?
I seem to remember a post about some folks asking help to pay their $4,000 house payment and their country club dues. I was amazed at the scorn some DUers have for those who had it good and lost it.

If you didn't have it so good and lost it then you deserve pity. If you had it good and lost it, tough shit.

Hey, pain is pain no matter how far you fall. One thing about the wing nuts. You wonder some times why a working class wing nut doesn't care if the rich get a tax break. It's because they feel that there is a chance they will be rich some day. It maybe a false dream on their part but I have to respect them for their view more than I do for a Dem that despises someone for what they have and they don't. That's the right's definition of a loser.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Clarification
The thread you are referring to involved people who expected unemployment to pay their $4,000 mortgage, SUV payment, etc. They were'nt "asking for help", they were expecting the government to support a lifestyle that they were accustomed to.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. When I was unemployed I was told what amount I would get
My unemployment was based on the amount of money I made during the prior 52 weeks of employment. I think that anyone getting UE knows the amount they are getting and they know that there is a formula and you can't get more than the formula allows. I doubt that anyone thinks UE will pay a $4,000 mortgage payment.

The folks in the post I was talking about went to a private charity for help. I was miffed at the fact that they thought some charity could help them but I didn't despise them.

I just think that is not a good sign for our party if we have our groups who we are prejudiced against. I thing the quality of mercy is not strained.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I remember that item - and recall the thread differently.
A lot of the comments were not about lack of sympathy for those who are suddenly in dire circumstances, but instead about those who were asking charitable and government organizations, that had limited aid dollars for all people, to kick in with huge amounts of dollars for some items that are luxuries rather than necessities (eg., country club fees, or excessive mortgages) when doing so would have completely emptied the cophers of the organizations who also needed to help those who were struggling with basics like food and minimal rent.

There were three different issues at work in that story. The first was the HUGE and drastic impact of loss of income - even at the top end, as many people live close to their means regardless of the level of those means. The second was the unwillingness of some of the reported cases to downsize their costs (eg., let the country club membership expire; do without the second or third car). The third was that in a few extreme cases the requests from one or two individuals would have wiped out the entire budget of aid of the agency for the entire month - leaving everyone else's needs unmet.

If I recall there was sympathy for point one (the situation).

There was some sympathy by some and incredulous by others by the second point (those not willing to "adjust" their lives to the change in circumstances).

And there was no sympathy, and some hostility to the third (those who wanted huge amounts of aid to cover their life styles, at the expense of those in much more dire circumstances).

Just thought it was fair to the DU community to seperate those themes out. You are right at some points there was a real lack of compassion. But, as I read the thread, most were not at point one, but some at point two and a great deal at point three.
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. i remember it that way too,salin
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 07:04 PM by buddhamama
thanks for your thoughtful post.
:hi:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks buddhamama!
:hi:

Love your tagline, by the way :D
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Well I maybe wrong about the content of the thread
I did not follow all of it since it was growing longer and I left DU.

My apologies to anyone offended by my posts. Still I feel bad for anyone hurt by this administration's handling of the economy.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I've tried explaining to right wing pinheads
...who complain that poor people in the US have TV sets and microwaves that those items were usually either purchased before they fell into poverty, given to them by family, or bought from thrift shops for what a carton of cigs cost. Usually, it's the former, as people who are born into poverty and stay there usually don't have such amenities at all.

Consider how many IT people have lost 6-figure salary jobs and been unable to find anything but convenience store work since 2001. Those are the people waiting in line in big, fancy gas guzzlers that are worth less than they still owe on them.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. can't wait for those Bush/God-ordained tax/service cuts to kick in!
:eyes:


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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. The level of debt is exceptionally high - and very worrisome.
Many major banks have great risk exposure on some now understood risky business investments (think Citigroup and JP Morgan Chase, and Enron and WorldCom). If there were to be more major collapses of some of those businesses, the banks which I believe have not fully recovered from the earlier losses, might be in serious trouble.

Many large corporations (re: employers) have massive debt loads due to 12 years of merger mania where pumping stock prices mattered more than actual revenues - and thus leveraged buyouts (and increased debts) were viewed as a positive rather than a risk. In slower economic times, such as these, greater proportion of revenues must be devoted to servicing the debt. Less money towards investment in new equipment, employees etc.

Many individuals/families have taken to the credit lifestyle. The old rule of thumb (do not spend more than 1/3 of monthly income on rent or mortgage) has been thrown out the window - often because it is not feasible, but also because it has become more the norm to spend more and save less. Add car financing on bigger and bigger (re: more expensive) cars - where car prices often are now touted in terms of monthly payment rather than the total cost of the car, and good old fashion credit card debt, and many folks find themselves with less savings, and a much smaller cushion in case of job loss or unforseen circumstances that might drastically curtail the level of monthly income.

As a result we have recently had record breaking levels of bankruptcies, home forclosures (highest since the depression), etc.

In my opinion if the fundamentals in the economy do not seriously improve soon, any one of these areas of debt could serve as a tipping point for serious upheavel in the overall economy. This really worries me.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. From time to time I dust off a little essay I wrote a while back....
Friends, we’re heading for a rough patch in the economy. The good news is that the worst of it won’t start kicking in until five to ten years from now. The bad news is that by rough patch, I mean conditions that could rival or surpass the Great Depression. And here’s the scary part: decision makers have seen this coming for a long, long time.

The Problem:
Baby Boomers (and I’m at the tail end of the boomers) are nearing retirement. Right now, we’re in our peak earning years. This is the reason for:
* the large surpluses in Social Security
* an ability to fund large deficits without inflation
* a stock market that is about 40% above what historical P/E ratios say it should be
* inflated home values.
As we reach retirement, all the above will change. And I say that with the certainty that this apple I’m about to let go of will fall. (Thud: does it every time). Here’s why (in order):
* fewer earners and more retirees
* less saving-for-retirement investment money
* boomers will be selling, not buying, stocks
* we’ll all want to sell our family homes for apts./condos at the same time

Now I’m sure we’ve all heard the reassuring words that study after study shows that Social Security is just fine. Well, that reassurance depends on one thing: that the Federal Government will be able to pay back the euphemistically named Trust Fund. The Trust Fund is really just a bunch of IOUs for money that is spent as soon as the surplus FICA taxes are collected. If we’re running 300+ billion dollar deficits now, imagine what the deficits will be when instead of 200 billion social security surpluses, we’re paying back the Trust Fund to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Well, we don’t have to imagine, someone leaked the study that former Treasury secretary Paul O’Neil just commissioned: $44.2 trillion over the next 50 years. That’s about a trillion dollars a year or about 10% of the GNP. Folks, that’s huge, especially when you consider that there will be considerably less boomer savings dollars to buy treasury bonds to help float those deficits. And the worst part is that the debt is cumulative. Rising interest rates and an enormous national debt may well insure that interest on the debt will become the single largest line item of the federal budget.

The Bigger Problem:
So you say, let’s cut back on Social Security payments. Needs test the benefits and extend the retirement age. Well, that might help a little, but there are two problems:
1.) Boomers, as a group, aren’t savers but rather are debtors. Many boomers are already teetering on financial ruin and are staying afloat by continuously refinancing their homes at lower interest rates. Thus the number of boomers who will be relying on Social Security is growing.
2.) By the time these problems will start to arise, retired persons will represent the majority of the voting public. Any attempt to cut back on retirement benefits should be political suicide.
Notice I said ‘should’ be political suicide. Coincidentally enough, it looks like we may well be heading into what can only be called a pseudo-democracy. A few Republican-owned private companies are taking over vote counting - no audits allowed, thank you very much. And, by yet another coincidence, no one in power, not even the leadership of the opposing party, seems to mind this at all.

Here’s what I think: There have always been two forms of power in this country: political and economic. Now, of the two, economic has always been more powerful with the possible exception of the ability to declare wars. The Square Deal, the New Deal, and the Great Society challenged the power of the economic leaders to the point where a campaign was launched to reverse these “socialist” policies. To date, this campaign has been so wildly successful that even the power to declare war seems to now have moved from the political realm. But this all could change if there is a severe economic crisis.
And so, I believe our shadow leaders have decided to hedge their bets. They have decided to use their current power to move to a pseudo-democracy where the mainstream belief is that we elect leaders but, in fact, they are (and increasingly will be) appointed. And, as the majority of seniors move towards financial ruin with little or no Social Security safety net, they will be told that candidates that enact policies against their interest are wildly popular and undefeatable. How long this polite charade will continue to be believed is unknown. However, as far as I know, once lost, democracy has never been regained peacefully

The Chimp & Co. are accelerating and inducing an early onset of at least four economic crisis:

1.) Collapse of the stock market bubble (Dow about 4,000; NASDAQ ?????)
2.) Collapse of the consumer debt bubble
3.) Collapse of housing valuations
4.) Collapse of the Federal Gov’ts ability to repay the Trust Fund

The only just answer: massive tax increases on the wealthy.
The wealthy’s answer: the end of true democracy.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Exactly...
... the fact is, America's love affair with excessive debt could very well come to a gruesome end soon. It will not be pretty.

But these cycles are created by human nature. People have just gotten too "used" to being in debt up to their eyeballs. So, as a country, it is quite possible that we'll all get to share in the pain of a deflationary "adjustment" that will rival or even exceed the Great Depression in some ways.

It is quite possible that already the only way out of this scenario is for the Fed to print money in a hurry. By lowering interest rates (13? times) that is essentially what they've been doing. But it hasn't worked. Greenspan has even mentioned the the possibility and one would assume that he'd have a plan. But once, and if, it gets rolling it will be hard to stop with any level of money supply "adjustments".

Well, we do live in interesting times.
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