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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:16 PM
Original message
What do the names Forrestal, Olsen, Kokal and Weiss have in common?
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 03:20 PM by Minstrel Boy
Need a hint? Here's a clue from the CIA's declassified assassination manual:

2. Accidents
For secret assassination, either simple or chase, the contrived accident is the most effective technique. When successfully executed, it causes little excitement and is only casually investigated.

The most efficient accident, in simple assassination, is a fall of 75 feet or more onto a hard surface. Elevator shafts, stair wells, unscreened windows and bridges will serve. Bridge falls into water are not reliable. In simple cases a private meeting with the subject may be arranged at a properly-cased location. The act may be executed by sudden, vigorous >excised< of the ankles, tipping the subject over the edge. If the assassin immediately sets up an outcry, playing the "horrified witness", no alibi or surreptitious withdrawal is necessary. In chase cases it will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject before dropping him. Care is required to insure that no wound or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death.

1. James Forrestal, 1949: "jumped from window"

At around 2 a.m. on the morning of May 22, 1949, Americas first Secretary of Defense, James Vincent Forrestal, fell to his death from a small window of the 16th floor of the Bethesda Naval Hospital.


Throughout Forrestals hospitalization, access to him was severely restricted. One-time visitors were his wife, his two sons, Sidney Souers (a former DCI, NSC executive secretary, and alleged MJ-12 member), Louis Johnson, Truman, and Congressman Lyndon Johnson. Menninger visited twice. Although Forrestal was presumably glad to see his sons, he was not close to any of these visitors, and had a political antipathy to his government colleagues who came by. However, Forrestal was not permitted to see the several people he continually asked to see: his brother, a friend, and two priests.


Father Sheehy had reason to suspect murder. When he arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital after learning of Forrestals death, an experienced-looking hospital corpsman approached him through the crowd. In a low, tense voice he said: "Father, you know Mr. Forrestal didnt kill himself, dont you?" Before Sheehy could respond or ask his name, others in the crowd pressed close, and the man quickly departed.


Later inspection found heavy scuff marks outside the window sill and cement work. Proponents of the suicide theory claim these were made by Forrestals feet while he was hanging by the neck from the radiator, and perhaps that he belatedly changed his mind and tried to climb back in. But the scuff marks confirm no such thing. They could just as easily have been made by his struggle with someone pushing him out the window.

2. Frank Olson, 1953: "jumped from window"

Frank Olson and Kurt Blome (who had become a proteg of the Americans) later met at Camp King in Germany in the early 1950s when Olson made several visits there to participate in "Operation Artichoke", in which the U.S. Army and the CIA experimented with the use of drugs (including LSD) in interrogation. Olson was present during brutal interrogations by the Americans of Soviet prisoners and suspected double agents, some of whom died under torture. Olson was deeply disturbed by what he had seen.


In November 1953 Olson attended a meeting of a group of CIA agents at a country retreat where they discussed their work. Olson was suspected by the CIA of being a security risk. He was given a drink laced with LSD and when well under the influence of the drug he was subjected to interrogation using Artichoke techniques, probably a very unpleasant experience.

A week later Olson was staying in Room 1018A at the Hotel Statler in New York City under the supervision of a CIA doctor, Richard Lashbrook. The manager of the hotel, Armond Pastore, heard a thump outside and went out to find Olson dying on the pavement, having fallen from the 13th floor. The manager later found that a phone call had been made from Room 1018A to a number in Long Island and the caller had said only, "Olson's gone."

The CIA maintained that Olson had leapt through the closed window to his death. However, an autopsy conducted forty years later on the exhumed corpse revealed an injury to the skull most likely caused by a blow to the head and no evidence of any cuts to the body from broken glass. It seems that Olson, exactly as recommended in a CIA assassination manual, was struck on the head (possibly while drugged) and thrown from the window to his death thirteen floors below.

Statement from the Olson family, 2002:

1. The death of Frank Olson on November 28, 1953 was a murder, not a suicide.

2. This is not an LSD drug-experiment story, as it was represented in 1975. This is a biological warfare story. Frank Olson did not die because he was an experimental guinea pig who experienced a "bad trip." He died because of concern that he would divulge information concerning a highly classified CIA interrogation program called "ARTICHOKE" in the early 1950's, and concerning the use of biological weapons by the United States in the Korean War.

3. The truth concerning the death of Frank Olson was concealed from the Olson family as well as from the public in 1953. In 1975 a cover story regarding Frank Olson's death was disseminated. At the same time a renewed coverup of the truth concerning this story was being carried out at the highest levels of government, including the White House. The new coverup involved the participation of persons serving in the current Administration.

3. John Kokal, 2003: "jumped from roof"

WASHINGTON A State Department (search) employee was found dead outside the agency headquarters in Washington, D.C., Friday around 5 p.m., Fox News has confirmed.

State Department sources told The Washington Post that John Kokal (search) worked in a unit that dealt with intelligence and research. Sources said he handled classified documents regularly....


the man, a white male, was wearing a dress shirt, tie and slacks, but was not wearing shoes....,2933,102563,00.html

Mystery Surrounds Death of State Dept. Official, by Wayne Madsen

In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media.


Kokal's INR bureau was at the forefront of confronting claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Washington police have not ruled out homicide as the cause of his death. Kokal was not wearing either a jacket or shoes when his body was found. He lived in Arlington, Virginia.


It would have been impossible for Kokal to have gained entry to the roof on his own. INR occupies both a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF) on the sixth floor that has no windows and a windowless structure on the roof that has neither windows nor access to the roof, according to the former official. The other windows at the State Department have been engineered to be shatter proof from terrorist bomb attacks and cannot be opened.

INR and other State Department officials report that a "chill" has set in at the State Department following Kokal's defenestration. A number of employees are afraid to talk about the suspicious death. It also unusual that The Northern Virginia Journal, a local Arlington newspaper, has not published an obituary notice on Kokal.

4. Gus Weiss, 2003: "jumped from window"

Nashville native Gus Weiss, adviser to 4 presidents, dies

Gus Weiss, a Nashville native who advised four presidents, served on the National Security Council for 16 years and won numerous awards for his foreign policy and intelligence-gathering skills, has died. He was 72.

Mr. Weiss died Tuesday in Washington, D.C. The circumstances surrounding his death could not be confirmed last night.

Friends of Mr. Weiss expressed shock at his death.


"He was wired into the intelligence community, and there were a lot of mystical secrets we weren't privy to," said Harris Gilbert, a Nashville attorney who had been friends with Mr. Weiss since childhood. "He was very interested in diplomatic strategy and was very, very opposed to the Iraq war. It was the first military action he ever opposed, but he believed we shouldn't go to war in the Middle East without knowing what we were getting into."

Gus W. Weiss, 72; White House Adviser

Gus W. Weiss, 72, a former White House policy adviser on technology, intelligence and economic affairs, died Nov. 25 of a fall from the Watergate East residential building in the District. The DC medical examiner ruled his death a suicide.

A spokesman for the D.C. police said that officers found his body at a service entrance to the apartment cooperative. Dr. Weiss lived in the building.


Much of his government work centered on national security, intelligence organizations and concerns over technology transfers to communist countries. As an adviser to the Central Intelligence Agency, he served on the Pentagon's Defense Science Board and the Signals Intelligence Committee of the U.S. Intelligence Board.

During the Carter administration, Dr. Weiss was assistant for space policy to the secretary of defense.

Suicide? Don't fall for it. And don't try this at home, kids! Here's a disclaimer, again from the good folks at the CIA:

Assassination is an extreme measure not normally used in clandestine operations. It should be assumed that it will never be ordered or authorized by any US Headquarters, though the latter may in rare instances agree to its execution by members of an associated foreign service. This reticence is partly due to the necessity of committing communications to paper. No assassination instructions should ever be written or recorded. Consequently, the decision to employ this technique must nearly always be reached in the field, at the area where the act will take place. Decision and instructions should be confined to an absolute minimum of persons. Ideally, only one person will be involved. No report may be made, but usually the act will be properly covered by normal news services, whose output is available to all concerned.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. The CIA, the Bush Gang and the Killing of Frank Olson
The Secret Sharers: The CIA, the Bush Gang and the Killing of Frank Olson

by Chris Floyd

There is a thread running through modern American history, a thin red cord that weaves in and out of the shifting facades of reason and respectability that mask the brutal machinery of power. At certain rare moments the thread flashes into sight, emerging from the chaotic jumble of unbearable truth and life-giving illusion that makes up human reality. It appears, bears witness, then vanishes again, forgotten behind the next facade.

It's a thread that runs from horrified young intelligence operatives stumbling into the death camps of Nazi Germany to hardened agents running assassination programs in the jungles of Vietnam to august men of state building a shadow government with secret decrees authorizing tyranny, murder, torture and deceit. It's a thread of moral corruption, corruption by an idea, a temptation, a perversion of reason, the whisper of evil that says: "The end justifies the means."

... July 1975, Ford had still more worries. A top White House aide, Dick Cheney, sent a memo to Rumsfeld, warning him about an upcoming lawsuit. The family of Frank Olson had found out--through the Congressional investigations--that he had been secretly drugged by the CIA not long before he took that fall from the hotel window. Now they were suing the government for damages.

The lawsuit could be bad business, Cheney told Rumsfeld. "It might be necessary to disclose highly classified national security information" during the trial. That would include the truth about Olson: the CIA connection, biochemical weapons, the mind-control and torture experiments based on Nazi death-camp "research," and the Agency fingerprints all over Olson's last days in New York City.

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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. This isn't news to me ............
so I didn't reply upon first reading (nothing useful to add really) but this would shock a lot of people who are not yet aware of it. So I'm kicking it.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. That's the spirit.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Can I throw in Martha Mitchell?

After five men were arrested and four escaped, police said that "Other persons staying at the Watergate Hotel could use hotel rooms for listening posts to monitor conversations beamed by transmitters." John Mitchell lived at the Watergate Hotel. Could Martha have found men listening through the walls?

Ken Clawson, Deputy Director of Communications in the White House, was giving out interviews about Charles Colsen and Howard Hunt. Did he work with these men?

Robert Odle, the man who hired McCord for Security, was staff assistant with Communications in the White House.

Howard Hunt, CIA 21 years, worked with developing and guiding media operations.

James McCord did radio operation work for the FBI 3 years.

The importance of radio and communication control at the time of martial law and the cancellation of elections is described in Stephen Rousseau's Death of a Democracy, Greece and the American Conscience.

A coup d'etat was possible in Greece because all communication was limited to a few people. The regular sources were cut off, and taken by surprise.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. American Assassins Are Mutations
Mae Brussell sure knew the score, and could recognize the enemy:

The American assassin is a different variety than history ever produced before. This mongrel is not a pure breed nazi but the deformed and hideous baby produced from the marriage of Nazi General Reinhard Gehlen and his mistress, Allen Dulles' CIA. It has taken a long time to recognize just what is different about this creation whose birth followed a quickie ceremony immediately after World War II.

The parents, who had helped finance Adolph Hitler's ascendancy, and the agencies still longing for revenge and war against most of mankind, changed their domicile but not their habits. The nursery moved from Germany into the United States and Jamaica. When the TV cameras turn their lens away from the crowd or the hired man who is photographed holding a weapon, the wide view screen will show the chambers of Washington, New York and Montreal where the real American assassins shall be properly identified.

Europeans and some Americans who find the explanation of our assassinations hard to grasp have not yet recognized the species. Every time we are ready to change domestic and foreign policies through the electoral process, the candidate who would effect some better changes gets smashed. Once again that "withdrawn and unemployed failure" with "no ideological basis" manages to keep us back in the 19th century. Senator George McGovern called the alleged assassins "lone sociopaths." (2) Any person who wishes to become President should be more familiar with the conspiratorial process.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. We have another jumper (with one shoe this time)
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 05:05 PM by seemslikeadream
Laurence Duggan's

New evidence emerging from the five-year grand jury investigation into the 1953 death of CIA biochemist Frank Olson reveals concerns about several additional puzzling deaths. At least one of those deaths is noted in the CIA's record of its own internal investigation into Olson's fatal plunge from a Manhattan hotel window. That death, detailed in a top-secret CIA report dated December 3, 1953, was Laurence Duggan's.

A former high-ranking State Department employee, Duggan fell screaming from a 16th-floor window of his Manhattan office on Dec. 20, 1948. Duggan's lifeless body was found moments later on a Fifth Avenue parapet. He was dressed in a business suit, overcoat, scarf and only one overshoe. Police found the missing overshoe on the floor of his office.
As with the Olson case, New York City police deemed Duggan's death an "accident or suicide," and the Manhattan Medical Examiner's Office ruled that he had "jumped or fallen." Friends and family of Duggan disputed these findings and claimed that he had been a victim of "foul play."

Ten days before his death, the FBI questioned Duggan about communist espionage in the State Department. From 1935 to 1944, Duggan served as U.S. State Department chief of the Division of American Republics where he oversaw diplomatic relations with Central and South America.

According to FBI documents, Duggan admitted during questioning that he had had contacts with Soviet intelligence agents but denied being a spy and failed to explain why he didn't report the contacts. When pressed for further details Duggan walked out of the interview.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. fell screaming from his 16th floor office
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 06:24 PM by Minstrel Boy
Bloody hell.

Ever feel like you're the only one who can hear the bodies hit?

Duggan's case reminds me of another jumper: Canadian ambassador to Egypt Herbert Norman, who "jumped" from a Cairo roof after being hounded for years by American allegations that he was a Soviet spy.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Here, I think I know the problem
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Are we just doing jumpers?

Assassination of Reuters Cameraman, who had uncovered evidence...

Centre for Research on Globalisation

Assassination of Reuters Cameraman, who had uncovered evidence of Mass US Casualties in Iraq

Recipe for Terror
by Felicity Arbuthnot

Common Dreams, 20 November 2003 27 November 2003

The URL of this article is:

"...With the death toll of US soldiers having exceeded, in just seven months, that of the first three years of Vietnam it is worth asking if even these figures are the full truth. Many of those who have joined the military in Iraq, do not hold American passports, but were, broadly, promised that they would be given them on return, for their efforts against the 'war on terrorism'. According to Dr Rokke, should they die, their deaths are not factored in to 'U.S.' casualties. Further, Mazen Dana, the Award winning Reuters camera man, shot dead by US troops whilst filming outside Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison in August - with full permission and press accreditation from the US Authorities in Baghdad - told his brother Nazmi, a chilling tale days before he died.

"Mazen told me by phone few days before his death that he discovered a mass grave dug by U.S. troops to conceal the bodies of their fellow comrades killed in Iraqi resistance attacks," Nazmi said. "He also told me that he found U.S. troops covered in plastic bags in remote desert areas and he filmed them for a TV program. We are pretty sure that the American forces had killed Mazen knowingly to prevent him from airing his finding."

"All international and local news agencies sent cables of condolences to his family, lauding his ...... determination to uncover the truth wherever it was", recorded veteran Middle East correspondent Awed Al Ragoub. Truth is becoming increasingly difficult for journalists to record in Iraq. Last week, reported the Boston Globe, thirty major news gathering outlets wrote to the Pentagon complaining of intimidation, arrest, destruction of note books, video tape, recorders and film. The circumstances of the death of ITN's Terry Lloyd and disappearance of his colleagues is still obscured by the US Administration as has been the US tank attack on the Palestine Hotel with deaths of three journalists. Journalists' protection, under the Geneva Convention is absolute.

Iraq is now a vast Guantanamo Bay, with the disappeared unaccounted for, which was why Mazen Dana was filming outside Abu Ghraib. Even prisoners under Saddam, were more accounted for. The full number of both prison camps and prisoners are simply unknown. With the bombing of the Red Cross building in Baghdad and resultant pull out of staff, the last shred of accountability for the detained has been removed. The Red Cross is enshrined in the Geneva Convention as the neutral body who can interview and account for prisoners in war, held as hostage or in conflict zones. The tragedy of the Red Cross attack had a coincidental convenience for a U.S. human rights time bomb. The Geneva Convention also has emotive words regarding environmental destruction. Viet Nam with Agent Orange, torching of villages, rapes and even the decapitation of a baby by a US soldier to steal her necklace, has been recently chillingly revisited by a stunning, painstaking two year investigation by journalists at the extraordinarily committed but relatively small town Toledo Blade newspaper..."

According to the narrator, it is possible Dana was killed because he had found out that a recent 'mortar' attack on the prison did not happen. He believed that something had happened inside the prison and then the occupation forces targeted the prisoners while they were in their tents. If this is true, not only did US troops murder Dana, they also murdered in cold blood, Iraqi prisoners.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Tuesdays are jumps. Wednesdays, cold-blooded executions.
Ah, might as well jump. Jump!
Go ahead and jump
Might as well jump. Jump!
Go ahead and jump

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. It's wednesday, cold-blooded executions day?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Here's one that's haunted me for a long time:
Dorothy Kilgallen. Dead, November 8, 1965, shortly after returning from Dallas from an interview with Jack Ruby.

"...when Dorothy returned to New York, she told friends that she had discovered that Ruby and the slain Officer J.D. Tippit had been friends. They had been seen together in Ruby's Carousel Club at a meeting 2 weeks before the assassination in the company of Bernard Weissman, who had placed the "JFK-Wanted for Treason" newspaper ad in Dallas newspapers on November 22nd, 1963. Studying the Warren Commission Report, Killgallen deduced that the meeting had also been reported to Chief Justice Warren AND that the identity of 'the fourth man', which she had been unable to ascertain, had been reported to Warren as 'a rich Texas oil man', as Earl Warren described him in the official transcript.

"She told author Lee Israel that she had discovered something that was going to break the whole JFK assassination mystery wide open. She told the same story to her next door neighbor, her hairdresser, her agent, her publisher, and the producer and host of 'Nightlife'.

"Kilgallen had told Israel about a very mysterious and sinister player in the JFK assassination to whom she gave the code name 'ferret man'. From the description of the individual, it is clear that 'ferret man' was none other than David Ferrie, another known associate of Jack Ruby involved in gun running, the Marcello mob and other anti-Castro operations from Florida to Texas. At one time, Ruby and Ferrie were co-owners of an airplane.


"On Sunday November 8, Dorothy Kilgallen was found dead, sitting fully dressed, upright in bed, early in the morning. The New York City Police investigated and the coroner found that Dorothy Kilgallen had died from ingestion of a lethal combination of alchohol and barbituates. All her notes and the article on which she had been working to 'blow the JFK assassination wide open' also disappeared.

Another leaf from the CIA's "A Study of Assassination":

3. Drugs.

In all types of assassination except terroristic, drugs can be very effective. If the assassin is trained as a doctor or nurse and the subject is under medical care, this is an easy and rare method. An overdose of morphine administered as a sedat ive will cause death without disturbance and is difficult to detect. The size of the dose will depend upon whether the subject has been using narcotics regularly. If not, two grains will suffice.

If the subject drinks heavily, morphine or a similar narcotic can be injected at the passing out stage, and the cause of death will often be held to be acute alcoholism.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. But did she have her shoes on?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 01:54 PM by seemslikeadream
She's one of my favorites Minstrel-san

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
The death of Secretary of Defense Forrestal has bothered me from the first time I heard it. Perhaps many of those who knew the same secrets Forrestal kept have also suffered the same fate. Or worse.

In our time, Oliver North availed himself of all the thugs he could get his paws on. Mafia. FBI. WACL. KKK. CIA. And a whole slew more around the world. For whom did Ollie the Traitor work? For George Herbert Walker Bush. Of course.

From March 1981, a question that might be of interest:

What happens if a coup fails?

The problem was that Reagan didn't get back to G.W.U. until after Brady was there, like a good 15-to-20 minutes later before Reagan finally shows up and does walk in. They finally start dealing with him because he does have a collapsed lung but he isn't shot to the extent that he can't move. . . . But it is very significant, I think, that Reagan was taken somewhere else and then turned around. I think the timing of the turn around relates to a huge fight that they later admitted broke out in the situation room at the White House in the emergency between the Reagan loyalists and the Bush loyalists in the administration. . . . There are different loyalties. That was clear in a number of instances.

One was when Bush helped to get Haig appointed as Secretary of State. The entire Cabinet staff underneath him was already pre-appointed and he wasn't allowed to pick or choose any of them, or fire any of them. So it was like he was a figure head put up at the head of this agency that he wasn't really allowed to run. Then just a few days before the shooting of Reagan, there was a switch where Bush replaced Haig as the head of an emergency preparedness committee or unit that they had at the White House. The press was asking Bush right after he was appointed in place of Haig -- this was just three days before the shooting -- `What constitutes an emergency for the purpose of this special office?' And Bush said, "The president will know it when he sees it." I think he meant that he -- Reagan -- would know it when he saw it lying on the ground dying.

This I believe was a coup. The black box disappeared for several hours. . . There was that kind of transition-of-power going on -- who was actually going to control things and there were switch-overs about the Strategic Air Command bomber pilots, again, not having code books aboard on March 31, 81 like they didn't on November 22, 63. This was a classic transition-of-power situation.


The articles at the site also include information, OK -- speculation, about a small, thin plastic "frisbee" that almost ruptured Pruneface's aorta. The thing supposedly bounced off a rib and continued through a lung.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Say, Oliver North reminds me...
Olof Palme should be added to the roster of the Bush family's greatest hits.

Oliver North met with Palme to discuss the possibility of obtaining false end-user certificates for Iran/Contra's weapons cache. Palme refused to participate. Guess what happened a few weeks later?

Poppy's old fascist pal Licio Gelli and his P2 lodge were, of course, happily in the thick of Iran/Contra. From Barbara Honegger's book, October Surprise:

"According to Informant 'Y,' who claims his source to be Licio Gelli's top associate Francesco Pazienza, George Bush himself was made an 'honorary' member of P2 in 1976, the year that he became director of the Central Intelligence Agency.... According to 'Y,' shortly before the assassination of Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme, Licio Gelli sent a message to former Republican National Committee advisor and alleged 'honorary' P2 member Philip Guarino assuring him that 'the Swedish tree will be felled' and to 'tell our good friend Bush.'"
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. D'ya ever hear about "Project X," Minstrel-san?
ConsortiumNews ties it all together...

Lost History: Project X, Drugs & Death Squads

By Robert Parry

WASHINGTON -- "The C.I.A. Cleanses Itself," declared a mostly upbeat lead editorial in The New York Times on March 4. The U.S. spy agency had severed its ties to about 100 foreign agents who were "killers, torturers, terrorists and other assorted miscreants," the editorial observed with satisfaction:

"The Central Intelligence Agency's purge of foreign agents with criminal histories is an important milestone in the organization's effort to discard the bad habits of the Cold War."

Two days later, a front-page story in The Washington Post described the Pentagon's release of long-withheld documents that described how, for decades, the U.S. Army had been training soldiers around the world in techniques of blackmail, kidnapping, murder and spying on non-violent political opponents. That mysterious training program went by the spooky code name "Project X."

A day after that, a federal grand jury in Miami returned a narcotics indictment against Joseph Michel Francois, the military police chief who had led the coup in Haiti which ousted elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991. Francois and his military allies held power for the next three years, while Francois ran a U.S.-trained counter-narcotics unit that managed to arrest fewer and fewer drug traffickers.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. That's my new favorite nickname! Minstrel-san

:hi: Mr. Fish
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Does anyone really believe William Casey had a brain tumor?
they don't just "fall" out of windows...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. When Sid Gottlieb was around he chaired the Health Alteration Committee
The CIA has the world's largest collection of toxins and poisons, it is also the world's largest drug dealer.

The CIA was listed as the end user for the US Army weaponized Ames strain anthrax spores used to attack the 107th Congress that killed innocent US Postal Service employees and others.

Despite inadequate claims that the Abu Ghraib "abuse" scandal was the result of the actions of "a few bad apples.." and disregard for any reports of "systemic" problems how can the CIA explain it's own secret torture manuals?

Under threat of a FOIA lawsuit by The Baltimore Sun in 1997 the CIA released what is known as the KUBARK Interrogation Manual. This is historic evidence of the systemic promotion of US torture, and there is a transcript available in this archived 1997 Parascope article.

There are many highly disturbing stories about the CIA and children.
Cheryl Hersha and her sister are surviving CIA assets with an interesting childhood story, shared by a surprising number of other US citizens, their social networks, various professions, law enforcement, etc...

Mind control was acknowledged to be a matter of national security as late as 1997 (well after allegedly "closed") in this NSA response to a FOIA request by human rights activist Cheryl Welsh

A lot of horrific crime is concealed behind the abuse of the national security shield. Btw, this last link names Cheney and Rumsfeld as cover-ups in the Frank Olson case.

Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and the Manchurian Candidate by Maureen Farrell
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Cornelius P. Rhoads, MD, BFEE Turd
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 06:02 PM by Octafish
Puerto Ricans outraged over secret medical experiments

By Carmelo Ruiz-Marrero


The prize in question, the Cornelius P. Rhoads Scientific Achievement Award, is given yearly to outstanding young cancer researchers. In the 1930s, Rhoads worked in the Puerto Rico Presbyterian Hospital under the auspices of the Rockefeller Foundation for Medical Research.

In 1931 (Rhoads) used the Puerto Rican population as guinea pigs, injecting patients with cancer cells without their knowledge, said San Juan doctor Hector Pesquera.
At least 13 people died as a result of these experiments.

In a letter that was prominently displayed by the local media last week, Rhoads openly bragged about killing Puerto Ricans. What the island needs is not public health work, but a tidal wave or something to totally exterminate the population, said the letter.

The letter also contained this opinion of Puerto Ricans: They are beyond doubt the dirtiest, laziest, most degenerate and thievish race of men ever inhabiting this sphere.

According to the Internet newsletter CounterPunch, Rhoads went on to head the US Army Biological Weapons division and to serve on the Atomic Energy Commission, where he oversaw radiation experiments on thousands of US citizens.


The bedwetting BFEE NAZI turd Herr Doktor Rhoads seems to have had it in for just about anybody who wasn't a bedwetting BFEE NAZI. Other links o' interest (most probably known or authored by you, Bob):

EDIT: More-a-comin'. Hold the fort, sortospeak.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Resources on Human Experimentation by Nazi Doctors link

Human Experimentation by Nazi Scientists in US (Operation PAPERCLIP)

Rhoads was a racist criminal Doctor, he would have fit in nicely in the Nazi T-4 program and then made his career in the Holocaust.

I think the Nazi influence is in US mind control "research" too, Octafish. I know that the USSR also heavily "investigated" mind control. A lot of this has been privatized, Octafish. This was once a tinfoil subject, but it's critical to understanding events today imo and life experience.

MONARCH child programming by Ron Patton

Cheryl Hersha's childhood story
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. The Imperial Family are some murderous fucks, aren't they?
You think they'd have ANY compunctions about having their Saudi Bushfirends executed another 3,000 of us?

You think Bunnypants* would lose a MOMENT of sleep (if Poppy, Unka Dick and Unka Karl even told him) over it?

Brace yourselves. These monsters aren't finished with us yet!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Evil is one way of looking at it.
Perhaps they're being smart, in a lifeboat kind of way.
There's only so much water and food.
But the lifeboat's filled with riff-raff from steerage.
"Now, now Gilligan. Don't throw EVERYBODY overboard.
We want to keep some to do the work, as well as to eat."

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. Every single day I am reminded of the slumber I was in for
over 35 years. If American only had time to read.....
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. More bodies
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:21 PM by seemslikeadream

In France, Georges Paques, who flew out a window, an apparent self-defenestration. Paques had been an aide to nine French ministers while spying for the Soviet union for some 20 years. His trial would have been potentially embarrassing.

In the US, Jack E. Dunlap, an employee of the NSA 1958, was found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning - an apparent suicide (See Photo) . He also was a Soviet penetration agent, who had concealed in the attic his house a treasure trove of sealed packets of classified NSA documents bearing on its most secret deciphering and interception operation. There were many reasons why it would have been inconvenient to arrest and Jack Dunlap. For one thing, he was a liaison with "Staff D" in the CIA, and could expose areas of CIA-NSA cooperation in domestic interceptions that might be deemed illegal. For another, he had been the personal drive, and aide, to Major General Garrison Coverdale the chief of staff of the NSA. General Coverdale, and after Coverdale left in August 1959, Dunlap to the new NSA. chief of staff, General Watlington. As such, he had top-secret clearance and a "no inspection" status, which meant he could drive off the base with documents hidden in the car and then return without anyone knowing that the material had been removed from the base. Moreover, Dunlap had other high-level connections in the NSA. According to the Carroll Report, which investigated the Dunlap breach, he had helped a ring of officers at NSA pilfer some government property. Dunlap was under interrogation just before he died. His apparent suicide ended the investigation.

John Paisley, an ex-CIA officer, and liaison was the "B" team (which reassessed US intelligence) had been suspected of being a Soviet mole. He was found in the Chesapeake Bay, shot to death and weighed down with weights an apparent suicide.

Waldo Dubberstein, a CIA and DOD intelligence analyst, who admitted espionage activities, died of gunshot wounds, an apparent suicide.

Waldo Dubberstein
AKA: Doobie
CIA Advisor and Spy for Libya
(1908 - 1983)
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Don't forget all the dead scientists.
Wasn't Forrestal involved in Roswell?????
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yes here's what I found
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 09:37 PM by seemslikeadream
Near the end of the movie there is an enacted dramatic incident of the speculative kind involving the Secretary of Defense, who back in 1947 was James Vincent Forrestal, and a live "captured" extraterrestrial. Apparently, there have been a number of controversial rumors suggesting that Forrestal had been deeply involved in the extraterrestrial equation. Prosaically speaking, it certainly would have made logical sense to assume that our nation's Secretary of Defense would have been personally involved with discussions and/or interactions concerning ultra-secret extraterrestrial meetings - had contact actually been established. Tragically, Forrestal allegedly committed suicide on May 22, 1949 by jumping out of a window at Bethesda Naval Hospital where he had been held for treatment of emotional exhaustion which included paranoia and suicidal tendencies.

Why Forrestal needed treatment to the point that he was essentially isolated from most of his family and friends, as well as why he had become emotionally unstable, paranoid, and suicidal in the first place, has been debated for decades by a number of prominent UFO investigators. Forrestal was (and still is, I believe) the highest ranking U.S. government official to have allegedly committed suicide, an incident that did not escape the attention of communist block countries who attempted to milk the embarrassing situation for all it was worth. Apparently, there are some who knew him closely and who remain convinced that his death was not accidental or suicidal, or at least that his death had been desired by some who, in 1949, possessed a considerable amount of power in the United States.

As had been suggested by the SHOWTIME movie there has been a lot of speculation concerning an alleged Forrestal "diary." For those who would like to do a little scholarly research of their own, there exists an excellent biographical book on Forrestal titled "James Forrestal, A study of Personality, Politics and Policy" by Arnold A. Rogow. (I believe it was published back in the 1960s and, thus, may be somewhat hard to find. Ask your local librarian or professional book locator for help!) The author, Rogow, writes in the biography the following series of puzzling events as well as recovered official documents on page 47:

... on White House orders a number of papers and documents
were removed from Forrestal's files, either for "security"
reasons or other reasons. Although evidence is not
conclusive, it is probable that certain individuals, for a
variety of reasons, were reluctant to make Forrestal's
private papers available until they had been properly
"screened." Two such individuals, apparently, were
President Truman and Secretary of Defense
Johnson. In a memorandum to the President of August 27,
1949, Johnson wrote:
Dr. Bush???????
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Does that say "Dr. BUSH"????????
no. no. tell me no.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Dr Vannevar Bush
When asked if they were related, George H.W. Bush said obliquely, "we don't claim each other as family." (Thanks, seemslikeadream for the link: )

The most prominent name in the controversial MJ-12 documents.

OPERATION MAJESTIC-12 is a TOP SECRET Research and Development/Intelligence operation responsible directly and only to the President of the United States. Operations of the project are
carried out under control of the Majestic-12 (Majic-12) Group which was established by special classified executive order of President Truman on 24 September, 1947, upon recommendation by Dr. Vannevar Bush and Secretary James Forrestal. (See Attachment "A".) Members of the majestic-12 Group were designated as follows:

Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter
Dr. Vannevar Bush
Secy. James V. Forrestal
Gen. Nathan F. Twining
Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg
Dr. Detlev Bronk
Dr. Jerome Hunsaker
Mr. Sidney W. Souers
Mr. Gordon Gray
Dr. Donald Menzel
Gen. Robert M. Montague
Dr. Lloyd V. Berkner

The death of Secretary Forrestal on 22 May, 1949, created a vacancy which remained unfilled until 01 August, 1950, upon which date Gen. Walter B. Smith was designated as permanent replacement.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. Foorestal was bipolar
and all indications were that he was suffering from what's known as a "mixed state" at the time (a mixed state is being manic with all the dark thoughts of depression). Think Poe.

Sorry to blow your theory, but suicides like his are actually fairly common, even with modern treatment, which was unavailable then. Nearly 1 in 5 bipolar patients will commit suicide during their lifetimes.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. If Forrestal was bi-polar, it would've shown up earlier in his career.
The guy rose through the ranks to become the first Secretary of Defense.

If James Forrestal was sick, or if he had a problem, like manic-depression it would've showed up faster than a drunken cheerleader can thrice say "Lost Lenore."

The Death of James Forrestal

By Richard M. Dolan
copyright 2001 all rights reserved


UFOs constitute the great hole of contemporary history. We know, at the very least, that this was a topic of great concern to those at the top of American national security policy, despite the near-complete absence of public references to it. It is the proverbial elephant in the dining room that no one wishes to discuss. There are several reasons to consider a UFO connection to Forrestals death.

In the first place, Forrestals position within the defense community made him de facto a key player in the formulation of UFO policy. Because of the key importance, even urgency, associated with this topic in policy formulation during the late 1940s, we must assume that Forrestal was involved. The sensitivity of the UFO problem meant that Forrestals mental deterioration was a real security risk. One might even wonder whether Forrestal learned a truth about UFOs that contributed to his breakdown.

After all, consider the recent developments of the UFO problem for American national security policymakers. By 1948 (if not earlier, e.g. Roswell), it was becoming clear that the Soviets were not responsible for UFOs, and neither were the Americans. It was equally clear that well qualified military observers and equipment had tracked these objects at speeds and maneuvering capabilities that were impossible with contemporary technology. In the spring of 1948, White Sands Proving Ground in New Mexico had been the scene of an extraordinary UFO sighting that was analyzed in secret by the Air Force Scientific Advisory Panel and security personnel at Los Alamos. The investigating team decided that UFOs were "of extreme importance." That summer, another incredible case occurred, which resulted in the famed "Estimate of the Situation" stating the extraterrestrial thesis as an answer to UFOs. This was shot down by Air Force Commander Hoyt Vandenberg. Even so, President Truman began receiving regular briefings that summer on UFOs from his Air Force liaison, Colonel Robert Landry (coordinated with the CIA). Such briefings lasted through the remainder of his presidency. By the end of 1948, the curious and unexplained "green fireball" phenomenon began appearing in very localized fashion over Los Alamos. This, too, received extreme levels of attention from Americas military and scientific elite, and did not (and do not) appear to be natural phenomena. In short, UFOs mattered a great deal within defense circles, and Forrestal was at the hub.

Secondly, Forrestals concern about being followed by "foreign-looking men" is a common description of the legendary-to-the-point-of-clich Men in Black. He never stated clearly just who he believed to be following him, at least not consistently. Others assumed that he was talking about Communists, Jews, and Washington insiders, but they could only assume.

Then there is the disconcerting relationship with Air Force Secretary Symington. True, Symington considered Forrestal to be an enemy. But why, in the moment of Forrestals departure from politics, amid a spectacular psychological collapse, did Symington take it upon himself to have a secret conversation with Forrestal that left him utterly incoherent? This goes beyond mere conventional political maneuvering: what did Symington say or do to Forrestal? At least one senior military person linked Symington to a type of UFO "control group," and that was General Arthur Exon, former base commander of Wright-Patterson AFB, in an interview he gave in 1990. According to Exon, Symington was one of the "unholy thirteen," one of those who knew the most about Roswell. Forrestal, said Exon, was another.


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doodleysquat Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I'll bet Symington
was the cigarette-smoking man.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. It did- It's just that people have a lot of misconceptions
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 04:57 AM by depakote_kid
about the nature of bipolar disorder.

Forrestal was brilliant. He saw things that his contemporaries didn't. Many people with bipolar disorder do- and they have to hide it. Otherwise it would be like the crucible.
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