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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:10 PM
Original message
Tom Clancy remark about secret off-budget black-ops
Tom Clancy was on Charlie Rose last night (I saw the rerun today), and he mentioned that the only way to keep black-ops really secret was to fund them outside the regular budget, which is subject to audits and Congressional oversight (or is supposed to be).

Clancy is just a novelist (and I haven't read his books), but he seems to know something about the murky underworld. He's gung-ho Bush* and gung-ho black-ops. He says he knows lots of good CIA people, but that the CIA is too restricted in what it can do, and too bureaucratic. He thinks there need to be unaccountable groups that can work under the radar, and without the rules--he sounds like a charter-member of PNAC, a pure Straussian. So my point is, if Clancy thinks this, can Wolfowitz et al. be far behind? This is a rhetorical question--these are the Iran-Contra people, after all.

The reference to "off-budget" also made me wonder--I've always thought the DoD was rather complacent, taking criticism about the missing $trillion or so without defending its "sloppiness," except to say it was a big organization, etc. Clancy also bragged about guessing right about one secret project, which was "something that flies fast"--so not a small budget item. And with SO much money to play around with, imagine what trouble these guys could be getting into. Imagine that they are NOT stupid about accounting and bookkeeping. Imagine what we might find out if the military had to come clean about how that money was spent and is being spent....

I may be wrong. But if "follow the money" is how to catch "terrorists," it is probably also the way to get our country back, so that unimaginable things are not being done in our name.

I started this thread because I can't help wondering about these bombings in Iraq. I'm trying to stay open-minded, but I really am afraid that control over what we do as a nation may have slipped even farther from us than we ever thought. A $trillion slush fund can do a LOT of damage. It could even fund a wholly private army (I think).

Just wondering. Is it already impossible to follow that money?
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mjb4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. heard him local
he sounded rude to me....
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Clancy doesn't know as much as Clancy wants people to believe.
And his books suck.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You hit the nail on the head..
..he is, like most right-wing fantasists, full of the brown and smelly...

Anyone that dedicates a book to Raygun as the person that ended the cold war needs their fucking head examined...

TB
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DeathvadeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. ditto that..... n/t
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Clancy is a wannabee
Saw a biography thing on Clancy, he tried to be a soldier and wasn't very good at it.

As the old saying goes they that can't do write about it.

By the way not all his books are bad, I like his earlier ones. Before
he became a Bush a** kisser.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. I got hooked on "Red Storm Rising"
A very believable tale about how a war could have started in Europe prior to the break-up of the Soviet Union...a very good writer, IMHO.

But his politics suck.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I read "Red Storm Rising." It sucked.
Not realistic at all. Full of flaws.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. So if you don't rate, just overcompensate
At least you'll know you can always go on Ricki Lake
The world needs wannabe's
So do that brand new thing
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Stevendsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Tom Clancy is a Nutjob
This guy has a hard-on for high-tech subversions of the democratic process through "off-the-books," illegal, covert operations. This fucking wingnut needs to learn something about democracy and the concept of transparency in government. He does real damage by promoting his perverted, elitist vision for millions of white Republican assholes that devour his military-fetish garbage "novels."
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree--he's a creep, but I really wanted people to discuss the
question of that missing $trillion in the Pentagon, and what it might be being used for. That's WAY too much unaccountable money in the hands of BFEE and PNAC.

Guess I shouldn't have led with the name "Tom Clancy"--not having read him, I didn't know more than what I heard today, which was enough for me to be disgusted.

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TheBigGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. The missing $trillion ....black ops or black world.
Two different things.

Black world are supersecret weapons programs.

Black ops are sort of like what you saw in the first Tom Cruise Mission Impossible movie.

Black world stuff is in the budget as, I think, a lump sum line item. I think only folks with real high clearances know the details of this funding. Maybe some key Congressional staffers. Maybe not.

Black ops could be funded via some convoluted funds transfers and laundering.

The missing $trillion is more and likely sloppy bookingkeeping.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Of course none of the hits on Clancy made in this thread have
anything to do with the truth that there is obviously a secret funded black-ops division that operates without congressional oversight because its not funded by the government.

This is nothing new and Clancy is not the first to talk about it. What do you think Iran-Contra was all about, to just name one of many. Black-ops here was funded with drug sales, not government funding.

If I had time I would get the sites but one thing a lot of people aren't aware of is that when the CIA was cut down a little after the Church report, a logt of riffed agents continued to work on Bush, Sr's private payroll.

And I still find it hard to take that no one is pitching a fit over the fact that when the terror alerts first went up, a secret government was revealed that most of our senators didn't know a damned thing about.

We've already seen how these secret black-ops have fucked things up through Cheney when they "sexed" up the case for war against Iraq.

Sure, I don't give a shit about Clancy either. Can't read his books and often wonder, who does. But that doesn't mean there are no secret black-ops.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Clancy ain't nothin' but a "Paperback Fighter". . .
Edited on Tue Aug-19-03 03:32 PM by frankzappa
That expression was made by the late Scott Shuger, who wrote a piece in the Washington Monthly in 1990 skewering the phony baloney.

His books are crap, and mostly follow the same shtick: Fancy gizmos, every instrument of battle works to perfection, agents and soldiers just below James Bond in invincibility, all the casualties on the other side, and a happy ending.

Here's the link, if you're interested:
http://www.joe.to/tom_clancy/


:evilfrown:

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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thanks, I'll read the article. But what I really want to know
is how much Rummy and Wolfowitz, Perle, et al. buy into the Clancy kind of crap. And if the huge amount of missing money in the Pentagon might be used for just such criminally-stupid black-ops "games."

Did anyone read my whole post? Or just responded to the name of Clancy?
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Pillowbiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I think it is the other way around
Clancy is buying into the PNAC groups crap. Clancy is an outsider.

I kind of view it this way, in the Goth subculture there are types that claim they are vampires to get prestige, but if they were *really* vampires, would they ever let anyone know about it, or even know for certain that vampires as a whole really exist?

In the Totalitarian subculture that Clancy is in, he is just a wannabe. Whereas PNAC are more likely the real dictators.

PB
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Yeah, that's a good point. I had no intention of giving Clancy credit
for being in the know, really. Although, it's interesting to note that Perle wrote a novel (with himself as the main character) in a plot that might be a Clancy-wannabe. These PNAC guys, for all their power, may draw their fantasies from the same dark pool Clancy does. (Mind you, I've read neither Clancy's nor Perle's novels.)

PNAC is real--but I think these guys live in a parallel unreal universe, and they may well be vampires.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Clancy is just saying the truth - about a practice that goes back to 40's
In the 50's the movement of monies that financed Pakistan's Atomic Bomb was done through the Atom's for Peace Program - and in that budget item were funds for the CIA

How do I know - well the guy who ran it - Under Sec of Comerce Olmstead was my boss in the late 70's to early 80's - and good buddy of the Reagan crowd - and he said this was true.

So "off budget" refers to the practice of skiming money from budget lines that the committees were told not to audit - the amount authorized was spent - move on.

These monies went into CIA controlled accounts and controlled companies. I do not believe their is any gov agency that can tell you how much off-shore monies the CIA has put away, or which companies are CIA fronts. The Congress's intel committee folks are told a number and the names of said companies - and they are told to believe it - but there is no checking.

So off the books really means off the books. Do you trust your CIA?
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Nope, I never trusted the CIA--though I couldn't have offered
documentation as you have (at least not without some research). I even find it sort of interesting that we've been hoping that the CIA would rescue us from Bush* (because of the infighting over the SOTU). And I do suppose that there are circles within circles in the CIA, the worst work being funded clandestinely and probably with drug money and off-shore fiddles.

I've never trusted the Pentagon either. But now the worst of BushCo*'s gang is holed up over there, planning major overhauls and reorganization, and there is a shitload of unaccounted-for money to do who-knows-what damage.

OK, I guess this isn't anything new. I was just re-awakened to the enormity of it by listening to Clancy. And I DO wish there was something that could be done about it. Without fixing this, getting rid of Bush*, while a step in the right direction, might not be enough to turn this country around....
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. The documentation is fact - and why fear the CIA?
I know many in the CIA - and all good folks - and they free lance for "patriotic" reasons - not to stop the spread of a fact that is well known.

Although Olmstead was in fear of them in his later years - thinking they would punish him for his loud mouth by revealing the dirty deals with Liberia he was doing with Doe and later Taylor for Reagan/Bush - and thereby costing him his fortune that was tied up in "International Bank" - which had the Liberian contract.

It is funny to think that when Olmstead/Internation Banks secret was revealed it was as a maritime law article by an Australian fellow - which never got picked up in the US!

Not that I am saying that the US Media is guided by folks with their hearts close to the CIA - it just seems that way!

:-)

Besides is it realy "American" to live in fear of your government?

:-)

:toast:
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terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. His ideas of spec. ops and the Bush admins might be different
The majority of Clancy's books are about small, elite and efficient fighters or operations. That doesn't jive with Bush and company's bigger is better theory (shock and awe). Sure they use the special forces but maybe not as effectively as they could which is something Clancy keeps a blind eye toward. Didn't Clinton favor the use of small operations to get certain jobs done like when they suppsedly could have taken bin laden in the late nineties?

Anyway, he may not be too far off the mark with his comments about "off budget" projects but he still wastes too much faith in the republicans.

I read his books and also think most of his early stuff is quite good but lately his right wing fetish hs been too obvious and preachy
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I agree - it is good that he is shown the "secrets" but RW theme is
tiring in a "spy" novel.

May as well read Atlas Shrugged by Ann Ryand and pretend it is really a philosophy.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
22. Soldiers of good fortune (on the corporatization of the U.S. military)
Edited on Tue Aug-19-03 04:45 PM by w4rma
They fly helicopters, guard military bases and provide reconnaissance. They're private military companies--and they're replacing U.S. soldiers in the war on terrorism

At a remote tactical training camp in a North Carolina swamp, six U.S. sailors are gearing up for their part in President Bush's war on terrorism. Dressed in camouflage on a January afternoon, they wear protective masks and carry nine-millimeter Berettas that fire nonlethal bullets filled with colored soap. Their mission: recapture a ship--actually a three-story-high model constructed of gray steel cargo containers--from armed hijackers.

Because they operate with little oversight, using contractors also enables the military to skirt troop limits imposed by Congress and to carry out clandestine operations without committing U.S. troops or attracting public attention. "Private military corporations become a way to distance themselves and create what we used to call 'plausible deniability,'" says Daniel Nelson, a former professor of civil-military relations at the Defense Department's Marshall European Center for Security Studies. "It's disastrous for democracy."

When the companies do screw up, however, their status as private entities often shields them--and the government--from public scrutiny. In 2001, an Alabama-based firm called Aviation Development Corp. that provided reconnaissance for the CIA in South America misidentified an errant plane as possibly belonging to cocaine traffickers. Based on the company's information, the Peruvian air force shot down the aircraft, killing a U.S. missionary and her seven-month-old daughter. Afterward, when members of Congress tried to investigate, the State Department and the CIA refused to provide any information, citing privacy concerns. "We can't talk about it," administration officials told Congress, according to a source familiar with the incident. "It's a private entity. Call the company."

The lack of oversight alarms some members of Congress. "Under a shroud of secrecy, the United States is carrying out military missions with people who don't have the same level of accountability," says Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), a leading congressional critic of privatized war. "We have individuals who are not obligated to follow orders or follow the Military Code of Conduct. Their main obligation is to their employer, not to their country."

The companies don't rely on informal networking alone, though. They also pour plenty of money into the political system--especially into the re-election war chests of lawmakers who oversee their business. An analysis shows that 17 of the nation's leading private military firms have invested more than $12.4 million in congressional and presidential campaigns since 1999.

The United States has a history of dispatching private military companies to handle the dirtiest foreign assignments. The Pentagon quietly hired for-profit firms to train Vietnamese troops before America officially entered the war, and the CIA secretly used private companies to transport weapons to the Nicaraguan contras during the 1980s after Congress had cut off aid. But as the Bush administration replaces record numbers of soldiers with contractors, it creates more opportunities for private firms to carry out clandestine operations banned by Congress or unpopular with the public. "We can see some merit in using an outside contractor," Charles Snyder, deputy assistant secretary of state for African affairs, recently told reporters, "because then we're not using U.S. uniforms and bodies."

Despite such experiences in the field, the Bush administration is rapidly deploying private military companies in the Persian Gulf and other conflict zones. By March, DynCorp alone had 1,000 employees in the Middle East to assist in the invasion of Iraq. "The trend is growth," says Daniel Nelson, the former professor at the Pentagon's Marshall Center. "This current president and administration have--in part because of September 11, but also because of their fundamental ideology--taken off constraints that somewhat limited the prior administration." According to some estimates, private military companies will double their business by the end of the decade, to $200 billion a year.

President Bush only has to look to his father's war to see what the consequences of this trend could be. In the Gulf War's single deadliest incident, an Iraqi missile hit a barracks far from the front, killing 28 Army reservists who were responsible for purifying drinking water. Other troops quickly jumped in to take their place. "Today, the military relies heavily on contractors for this support," Colonel Steven Zamparelli, a career contracting officer, notes in the Air Force Journal of Logistics. "If death becomes a real threat, there is no doubt that some contractors will exercise their legal rights to get out of the theater. Not so many years ago, that may have simply meant no hot food or reduced morale and welfare activity. Today, it could mean the only people a field commander has to accomplish a critical 'core competency' task such as weapons-system maintenance...have left and gone home."
http://indyweek.com/durham/2003-07-23/cover.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=174742
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35837
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks for these links--I have been sort of aware of the push to
privatize a lot of military functions, especially the support functions. But this puts it all together. I know Rummy is all for privatizing--but I'm not clear on how this saves the US money. And presumably all of the support stuff, like Bechtel building all those bases and then running them, is work that the contractors think will bring them a profit. But it's not as if they're generating the profit--it comes out of the military budget, right? One way or other, it has to be paid for.

But I was looking for murkier things. For example, in Afganistan it was widely reported that the war was practically being run by the CIA or at least intelligence units. In Iraq, there was little mentioned of that. I wondered if the US didn't have a "shadow" army in Iraq, even before the attack. And of course, if it were off-budget, it could do a lot of things without being observed. If it had to be one or the other, I guess I'd rather the $1 trillion had gone into graft and corruption, into people's pockets, than that is may be being used for provocateur-like "terror," assassinations, and other horrible things.... Better, however, if some of the war-gamers were just shut down. We already know that they come up with BAD ideas (eg., DARPA's turkeys that did get exposed). But if there are lots of people like that working in areas and at secrecy levels that we will never know about, how likely is it that they are not similarly crazy? Without oversight or even observation, they are likely to run off the rails, IMO.

On another thread today, there's been discussion of a claim by the brother of the Reuters photographer shot yesterday (Mazan Dana) that he had recently taken pictures of at least one mass grave (I don't know the numbers--and assume this word means many people buried in one grave rather than individually) of US soldiers. Just wondering if a coverup (if that's what this is) wouldn't be easier with mercenaries than with the regulars. But then, from your posting, if the mercenaries were working for a private company that wanted to insure its employees, there would be less chance of a successful coverup. Anyway, this story is far from certain. It would need for the film to come to light, and for other journalists to back up his work.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. I Wonder if He'd Feel the Same Way if HIS Kids Were Hooked on Heroin
Or coke, for that matter.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. What's that line from ID4?
"You didn't think they actually spent ten thousand dollars for a hammer and thirty thousand for a toilet seat, did you?"

Clancy is a twit. Without Congressional oversight of the intelligence services, democracy ceases to exist.
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