A problem I had with Fahrenheit.

[ThePandaBear]

In Fahrenheit 9/11, right before Michael Moore starts talking about the Iraq war, he shows videos of Iraqi kids playing games, Iraqi adults having weddings, etc, Then after the War started he showed videos of dead and wounded Iraqis from the Iraq war. Even though I disagree with the Iraq war, I felt like he was manipulating the audience there. Iraq under Saddam was not all fun and games. Saddam Hussein was a horrible mass murderer, and Michael Moore should have addressed that fact. He completely side stepped the issue, and made Iraq look like a righteous country. I know you are all going to attack me call me "Freeper" or whatever but I don't care. I thought this needed to be brought to everyone's attention. That scene should have been edited out.

[Forkboy]

1. ha ha

[anarchy1999]

55. For everyone here! This Flash was made in early 2003!

It never ceases to make me cry and it was and still is an incredibly moving document. Please view. It is from DU's symbolman.

http://www.tbtmradio.com/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/index.php?page=20040606202455535

Right before the bombs started to drop, I confronted my right wing boss who was all for the war, right after I had viewed this. For the things I said to him that day by all rights he could have fired me. Because of my passion (along with his younger brother's activism), it actually turned him around.

[lefty_mcduff]

2. Just the opposite.

The scene served to humanize the Iraqis as people - just like you and I.
Nothing to do with Saddam.

[Bluebear]

3. Fair enough but did that scene exist in Iraq?

Were the restaurant scenes real? Did Bush not say that the whole country was miserable and had no utilities? It's not Moore's job to be balanced. He is the first one to say that the film is made with a point of view. We have heard 'one side' in the USA for a long time.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. They had utilities before we arrived there

Baghdad was a big, multicultural multi-ethnic city with well-off parts and poor parts like any big city. I think the point of the flash is to show how their life had a semblance of normality like you'd find here-despite being ruled by a dictator.

[doni_georgia]

81. Duh, Bush lied just like he always does

Iraq had utilities until WE knocked them out. Yes, people were suffering in Iraq before the war, but more as a result of sanctions imposed on Iraq. Still, no one can say their living conditions have improved since the war started. No way. Saddam was a horrible leader, who did persecute many of his citizens, but not all. He focused his hatred on individual groups who would oppose him, not on the Iraqi people in general. Contrary to the picture that has been painted here, there weren't death squads in the street rounding up people for living their lives. Saddam dealt very harshly and unhumanely with his enemies, he built his and his cronies personal wealth while many in the country lived in extreme poverty. Still the people there had normal lives just like you and I before the war. The kids went to school, played at playgrounds, people ate at restaurants (those that could afford to do so), shopped, went to weddings and other social occasions. It wasn't a perfect life by any stretch of the imagination, but it was life as usual for them.

[Eloriel]

86. Yeah, Bush may have said that, and he was lying then too

There's nothing he's ever said that is true -- about anything. Everything he is and does and says is a lie. I'm surprised you don't know that. That's been true probably all his life, but certainly from the time he announced his candidacy (and probably all his gubernatorial years and candidacy as well).

[noahmijo]

4. Ehh gotta say you got a bit of a point there....

However Mike has said in interviews before I believe that Saddam was no good guy, and I;massuming he assumes that we all know better that Saddam wasn't some nice monarch like the king of the Trojans.

He could've also sort of showed that not every second were there people getting killed or executed for no reason as the freepers would have us believe. (as if they give a damn about innocents anyway) that normal people existed that were just trying to make the best of a bad situation (Hussien's rule)

[AP]

7. So they should have dropped a bomb on Hussein and not on people who

were suffering.

Notice Hussein still alive, but the US keeps heaping misery upon misery for everyone else.

If the footage of Iraq pre-war was of people suffering, would that make it OK to drop bombs on them?

Do you think we should be putting them out of their misery by killing them?

[w13rd0]

5. What should have been editted out?

Normal life before invasion? Or the consequences of Bush's War based on lies? Both were necessary to achieve the effect. It's called compare and contrast. It's a standard literary technique too.

[Corgigal]

6. Damn those Iraqi people

trying to live like "normal" people while Saddam was in power. How dare they.

[Kimber Scott]

13. Yeah, when Saddam was there they all lived under rocks and ate

worms for dinner. Never married. Never went to school. Never played. Oh, and they never got medicine, either, because we sanctioned them against it. Well, thank God we've saved them. Too bad, back in pre-1776 somebody didn't come bomb the shit out of us, We could have been democratized so much faster.

F--- Saddam Hussein AND George Bush.

[lanparty]

22. The Freeps confuse the Taliban with Saddam Hussein ..

Hussein's big beef was staying in power. Beyond that, Iraq went on humming.

He wasn't like the Taliban that tried to change EVERY aspect of the society. He wasn't like all those Taliban leaders that Bush PERSONALLY escorted around Texas and cut oil pipeline deals with when he KNEW they were harboring Osama Bin Laden.

That was one of the few things I didn't know before the film. I'm sure SOMEONE knew about Bush's dealing regarding the pipeline and the Taliban. It's AMAZING that the media didn't manage to at least fart this off in small page on the last page.

Bush = Taliban = Bin Ladin

Non of the shit that they FALSELY accused Clinton off was THIS bad. If there is ONE conclusion that a moderate Republican should get fromt he film, it's that the Bush's are so INCREDIBLY linked to all the scoundrels they are now demonizing.

Oh yeah, and they kiss Rev Moon's ass too!!!!!!

[TryingToWarnYou]

85. One quick correction....

Bush wasnt buddy-buddy with the Taliban recently.. Those images you are referring to were from the 80's and 90's...long before we had ever heard of Osama.

[VolcanoJen]

26. "We'll free 'em, even if we have to kill every last one of 'em!!"

Exactly right, Corgigal.

[progressivebydesign]

32. Bush is personally responsible for the death of thousands of Iraqis..

.. And we all seem to be having weddings, playing games, and having a nice life.

[Delano]

8. That "seen"?

Iraq was all the things depicted in those scenes. Things were also very bad for Daddam's enemies, and the Kurds. Do you want him to show Iraq as a 24/7 nightmare of agony for all it's citizens? It was not, according to all reports, so that would be a lie more deceptive than the admittedly overly idyllic scenes he presents (even though they WERE authentic).

Falun Gong practitioners and other dissidents in China get horrible treatment, but there are a billion people in China and most of them are NOT suffering all that much. Same goes for most dictatorships.


Showing that Iraq was a country at peace where normal people were living happy and productive lies does NOT negate the fact that there were horrible human rights abuses going on. It just illuminates the often ignored fact that they were not the ONLY THING going on.


Welcome to DU. I hope you will have more constructive things to say in the future.

[chrisesq]

49. He has a right to his point of view. I believe he has a valid argument

Your ending statement of:

"Welcome to DU. I hope you will have more constructive things to say in the future."

was completely unecessary. Just because you don't agree with it does not make it non-constructive.

He or she has a right to his opinion, and by the way, I saw the film and was thinking the exact same thing.

Though I do disagree that it should have been edited out.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Their ruler was a tyrant, so they deserved to die?

How would that statement relate to us?

We found out on 9/11....

[ThePandaBear]

19. What are you talking about?

Of course I don't think the Iraqis deserved to die. Like I said, I disagree with the Iraq war, I just felt that scene was manipulative. Yes kids did fly kites, yes people did get married. But people also got slaughtered and women got raped.

[Kimber Scott]

40. People get slaughtered and raped here everyday.

Does that mean the rest of us don't have normal lives? And, no, I'm not saying the government is slaughtering and raping anybody. I'm just trying to show how normal and slaughtering and raping can go on at the same time. Just like the news isn't ALL bad in Iraq right now. Something may blow up on one end of the street while on the other end somebody is eating their dinner. Well, maybe a couple streets over they're eating dinner. If something blew up on the end of my street, more than once, I'd be moving, not eating.

[chrisesq]

52. delete, wrong response

[chrisesq]

53. Damn, did it again--delete

[chrisesq]

54. No where in that post did the person allude to that;

The argument you are making is dishonest and logically speaking is a strawman.

That is an unfair tactic and we should be above such actions.

[U4ikLefty]

10. Ahem..."scene"...not "seen"

[NWHarkness]

11. Was it a film about Hussein?

Or was it a film about Bush?

[riverwalker]

12. but the fact is

before the war, they DID have weddings, and fly kites, and ate in cafes. Why "edit out" the truth? They were living lives just like anyone else, and the media ignored that aspect and only told of how horrible Saddam was. Why not ask the IRAQIS? Why rely on any media to tell you anything?

[lanparty]

14. People were living their lives ...

Despite how horrible Saddam was, it was better than having bombs dropped on neighborhoods.

This is life from THEIR perspective.

The media has done it's best to show us pictures of starving children and gulags. Moore was just showing that life DID go on under Saddam Hussein. People worked (unlike in Saudi Arabia).

[unteagles]

15. interesting post...

I caught that, too. Iraq wasn't idyllistic, but it wasn't war-torn under Saddam. People lived their lives, went shopping, fell in love, burned their dinners, overslept for work - as in China today.

He was going for a juxtaposition of a peaceful - albeit heavily controlled - society vs. a war-torn society. Totalitarianism creates a type of peace through fear. War creates chaos and pure, unadulterated fear.

The question is...are Iraqis better off in a destabilized country now filled with terrorist factions now that the U.S. has "liberated" them?

It's a question with which I struggle.

[Delano]

30. The thousands who are dead, and their grieving families...

Are surely not better off. That's what makes this a crime.

At least if Saddam had attacked us, we could at least feel SOME justification, but there is none. Just Bush's moronic parroting of the Rove lines "Saddam had the CAPABILITY to restart his WMD-related program activies" and "The world is different after 9-11" (READ: "We no longer have to adhere to any kind of international law or standards of human decency")

[unteagles]

46. good point...

on a global scale the repurcussions are chilling. we are essentially an agressor country and have established precedent for us and other governments to become more aggressive. i never advocated invading iraq for those very reasons (the reasons you pointed out), but i have always wondered why we hear that the iraqis are better off and the grounds on which that argument is made?

could it be someone is trying to soften cold, hard facts with speculative truths?

[WildClarySage]

16. We needed to see that because

of the mistaken impressions a lot of Americans have about Iraq- that it was a third world theocracy for starters. I saw a freeper piece of crap e-mail where someone claiming to be a soldier in Iraq was complaining about the media not showing all the good being done in Iraq, such as how 500,000 children were immunized in 2003. What it didn't mention was that before the war, 2,000,000 children were immunized annually (ok, making up the figures there cuz too lazy to look for it, but you get the idea.) Moore knows that Saddam was a bad man, but that wasn't the point. The average citizen wasn't an enemy of the state and people's standard of living was pretty much on par with much of the civilized world prior to the war.

[Kimber Scott]

33. Actually, from what I understand, before the war the children weren't

being immunized because they didn't have the medicine to immunize them with due to UN sanctions. I could be wrong, but that's the way I understand it.

[fearnobush]

45. Saddam actually won a acolate from the UN for that in 1988.

[elvisbear]

57. Soldier's email refuted at orweliantimes.com

http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html

[Columbia]

59. Total BS

"people's standard of living was pretty much on par with much of the civilized world prior to the war."

Not even close buddy.

[Cocoa]

66. before the Gulf War, maybe

I think Iraq did have a high standard of living before the Persian Gulf War, and especially before sanctions.

The war and the sanctions definitely had a bigger impact on Iraq's economy than Saddam's rule per se.

[NightOwwl]

17. Yes but...

We hear every freaking day that Saddam was a "horrible mass murderer." We know he "mass graves" and he was "a torturer." Why should MM have to address those facts? We have the media forcing that message down our throats every day. We get the point.

[lanparty]

34. Bush Sr was COMPLICIT in Saddam's murders

THEY were the ones who armed Saddam. THEY were the one's who sicked him on Iran. THEY were the ones who gave Saddam the chemical weapons. THEY were the ones who turned a blind eye when the Kurds were gassed.

THEY were the ones who baited Saddam into invading Kuwait. THEY were the ones who fabricated satellite photos allegedly showing Iraq troops massing on the Kuwait border.

THEY were the ones who incited the Shiites to rebel against Saddam, and then allowed them to me mowed down by Saddam's helicopter gunships. THEY were the ones who abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviets left.

Hey freepers, isn't it a little too late to be outraged about Saddam!?!?!?!??!?!

[thebigidea]

18. isn't that cute... apparently showing what happens with precision strikes

... is manipulation.

But not the lies that manipulated this country.

Ha!

[ibegurpard]

20. The alternate view has been blared at us by the Bush administration

and the news media for the past 4 years. There's no need to attempt to be balanced.

[fearnobush]

47. More like the Past 13 years.

I am old enough to remember the Rummy Saddam hand shake when it aired on the nightly news during the Iran/Iraq war. Back then, Saddam was indeed the good guy, our buddy.

[Zorra]

21. Life under Bu$h is not all fun and games, either.

That doesn't mean another country should invade us, kill and injure tens of thousands of innocent Americans, and blow our country to bits.

Perhaps MM was pointing this out.

[merh]

23. In an interview I saw, Moore said he included the images of the

Iraqi people before the war to show that they were humans beings, families, children enjoying their lives like you or me.

Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator and killer and a torturer, but he did not have his security forces out every day picking off civilians for fun. They had lives, they did live as normal as can be expected for people living under a dictator. Iraq even had elections. We know that the people all voted for SH because they were afraid of what would happen to him if they did not (jailed, tortured, striped of whatever "riches" or things of value that they may have owned). But they had elections, they held jobs, they practiced their religion. Yes, the Iraqi people had a better way of life before WE INVADED THEM. They were not being killed by bombs falling from the sky or car bombs or in street battles. They did not live freely and that had to be careful should they piss off SH and his sons, but in comparison, they were safer then than they are now. You have to wonder how alike * and SH really are. He wants to control the elections (he actually has his job because he stole the election), he uses fear to control, he controls the press, he authorizes torture, if you piss him off you better be careful, and he is responsible for mass murders in Iraq.

Shocking similarities don't you think?

[fearnobush]

50. Absolutely: Bush is a fucking Terrorist too.

He may not be killing thousands of Americans just yet... But image what an other 4 years will do. Bush is getting started folks. His defeat is a matter of utmost national security.

[VolcanoJen]

24. How did you feel when they showed that little Iraqi boy...

... crying while his face was being stitched up?

Just wondering... because it upset the crap out of me.

[maveric]

25. Are you positive tht Saddam was a horrible murderer?

Or do you just take what the bu$hies tell you straight up?

[TheWizardOfMudd]

35. I'm positive he was

Along with the help of Reagan, Bush The First, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

They provided him with the chemical weapons ingredients and patted him on the back after he used them.

[Delano]

36. He probably was...

Even the most liberal of our politicians acknowledge that.

To what degree is another story. Who knows. But I'm damn sure the repukes exaggerate it (and mischaracterize the killing of the people in the Bush1-inspired uprising as some sort of genocide - Bush or any other president would kill Americans if they started a violent uprising too, IMO.)

Whenever I hear the story about Saddam putting people in a plastic shredder, I always wonder if it's really true, or just made up like Chalabi's WMD claims.

[progdonkey]

27. real people

Before I write anything else, I should say I haven't had a chance to see the movie yet (hopefully tomorrow if it doesn't get sold out again). It sounds, though, like Moore is trying to just show a different image of Iraq from what the Administration has tried to push. With the Bushies, it was nothing but torture and rape rooms with Saddam, and now nothing but free schools and hospitals; I think Moore just wants to turn that on its head and say, "Look, there was some happiness among the people of Iraq before the war, and there's a lot of unhappiness among the same now."

It's not about saying, "It wasn't so bad;" it's about saying, "These people are just like you." There were many Iraqis who managed to eke out a meager living in Saddam's Iraq who may have gone on to be killed or severely hurt by the invasion and occupation.

Remember, Moore is out to argue a case. It's really just like in a courtroom: one side presents the facts in a light best suiting its case, and the other does the same. Moore isn't a journalist. His job isn't to discuss or analyze an issue: it's to argue one side of an issue.

But, I'm probably full of shit, since I still haven't seen the movie.... :spank:

[salvorhardin]

28. It also counters the

angry Islamic male image that has been planted in the public's mind by constantly trotting out the fake Saddam-9/11 connection and the constant barrage of video clips of, well, angry Islamic males.

[progressivebydesign]

29. Iraq WAS a moderate, middle class country.

They had symphony orchestras, libraries, zoos, universities, tea shops, carnivals. It was a nice county.. in spite of Saddam. You're buying into the freeper mentality justifying the death of thousands of innocents because "saddam was a murderer". I guess he was a great enough guy for Rumsfeld and Bush to befriend him.. I guess he was okay enough to supply WMD to so he could KILL his own people.. we supplied those weapons.

The scene SHOULD NOT be edited OUT! IT'S THE TRUTH! If the people are having weddings, and playing games before we bombed the life out of them, then how could that be a lie? Sheesh.

[Gman]

31. Fucking spare me...

there's not a damn thing manipulative about that scene. What Saddam did or didn't do before the invasion.

[Merlin]

37. Actually Saddam was enlightened in many respects.

Of course the brainwashed American people aren't permitted to say anything like this. But I will.

Saddam ran his country with an iron fist. Welcome to the world. Gee, I can't think of anybody else who's done that. :eyes:

But he also presided over a country in which women had equal rights, an equal education and equal opportunities for professional accomplishment. All that is gone now.

He kept Islamic fundamentalism at bay. He ran a secular state.

He ran a prosperous nation--until the sanctions took hold. Even so, there was a strong middle class in Iraq. People had cars, jobs, and their own homes.

Of course, Saddam had the PR skills of a pissant. Yes he was ruthless. But he was our man for many decades. Where do people think he got most of his weapons?

[Cat Atomic]

38. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Yeah, sure.

If you want to hear about how evil Hussein is, and how we should all just be happy that Reagan's favorite dictator is now in prison, go watch some more Fox News.

[Zomby Woof]

39. ah yes

An elaborate but no less idiotic variation of "But! But! They are better off without Saddam!" Which as always, is BESIDE THE POINT.

So when is your thread telling us we hate America?

You picked a helluva time to drag this shit onto DU. We're energized, and aren't going to take shit, no matter how dressed up it is.

As we used to say in my day, "You can't make chicken shit into chicken salad".

[VolcanoJen]

42. But I do suppose one could take Shit and turn it into "Shit-Ade."

Wouldn't be very tasty, though. }(

Bad timing, pickin' on DUers, really. :D

[Zomby Woof]

44. They're-a-pickin'

And we're-a-grinnin'! :D

[ThePandaBear]

43. I am not saying they are better off now.

Sinse we invaded Iraq, Iraq has turned into a shitcan, innocent people are dying everyday, and it may even be worse than when Saddam controlled it.

"So when is your thread telling us we hate America?"


What are you talking about. I never said anybody hated America.

[Robbien]

56. All films are a manipulation of the senses

Moore's film manipulates the senses. But you believe it is evil?

Why?

[ThePandaBear]

62. Did I say it was evil?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

71. It may even be worse than when Saddam controlled it?

He may have been an SOB, but he was their SOB.

tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, been injured, and lost their homes and livelihoods. Not to mention no utilities and clean water.

I would wager it's MUCH worse for them now than before.

[fearnobush]

41. I'm not gonna attack you, Just educate you a bit.

Saddam was no more evil than that of the Saudi Royals who too have their fair share of deadly round ups and human atrocities. 52 beheadings alone last year. Saddam is no more evil then the people who gave him the WMD to kill his own population (Those people were your own government). Saddam in no more evil than the people who gave him the green light to invade Kuwait (Again, your government) If Saddam was such a murderous dictator, why leave him in power after Gulf 1. And it was not the UN mandate that stopped us from taking him out in 1991 either, it was the dark side's need to contain the Saudi's from controlling the region by leaving a continued fantom Iraqi threat that never existed. With him still in power, we control the Saudi's defense, while the Saudi's control are oil based economy.

[parasim]

48. To balance out that scene

perhaps he should have shown some footage of how weddings go now in Iraq.

Like this recent wedding:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221658,00.html

[NecessaryOnslaught]

51. CIA asset since 1959

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim

....Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

more..
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r

[tooncesj0nes]

58. Pandabear..consider Saddam in this context..

..he killed those who were a threat to his power base...today, the Coalition continues to kill those they consider a threat to their power base...Reagan killed many in Central America in the 80s because they were a "threat" to "us"....we do it (marginalize those who are a threat to the leaderships power base) a bit differently in America (ie Dixie Chicks..etc)

[Columbia]

60. Who here has been to Iraq?

Read 1984 and you will get a good sense of what Iraq was like before the war.

[Speed8098]

63. "Who here has been to Iraq?"

Nope, can't say I have, HOWEVER, my best friend just had a baby with a woman who IS Iraqi. I spoke at length with her parents one night and we discussed their lives under Saddam.

Guess what Columbia. It wasn't nearly as bad as the neocons are making it out to be.

Yes, it was a major mistake to speak out against Saddam's' regime.

Beyond that, life for them was as normal as it is for us. Until the sanctions.

Public education was available, aide for poor families was available, arts and entertainment, were available. If you got hurt, you went to a hospital. If you were sick, you went to your family doctor.

There were no republican guards walking the streets listening to your pillow talk. They didn't break down your doors and whisk you away for no reason.
They had a good infrastructure. They had water, electricity, and hell, they had cable TV.

Free speech was somewhat oppressed, but so is yours.

If you opposed Saddam you died. If not, you lived a normal life.

Eventually, he would've been replaced. He was contained. Inspections were working. WMD's were non existent.

Tell me again, we launched a pre-emptive strike because????????????

[Cheswick2.0]

72. 2nd right wing crap post I have read of yours in the last few days

How did you manage to last here to get 1000 posts? Is it your use of cryptic one liners?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

82. Oh, Ches.....

many have noticed it's been many more and for much longer. ;)

[Swamp Rat]

61. Good, I'm GLAD you had a problem with Fahrenheit 9/11

That means it's working. It elicited a response in you - one of revulsion. I hope Moore puts even more horrific scenes in the DVD version.

This is THE purpose of this film. It's so simple.

ThePandaBear, please go see it again and take a few fragile minds with you.

This is very good indeed...

[0007]

64. Who supplied Saddam Hussein with weapons of WMD?

If you feel Michael Moore manipulated the facts, then you have trouble with the whole documentary.

I'm sorry you can't figure this out for yourself.

[PretzelWarrior]

65. I've thought about that concept....what was the average Iraqis life like..

before Saddam was overthrown? Well, first of all....lots of people were killed by Saddam during his regime. I don't pretend he was a benevolent ruler. But were they being killed daily in run up to war? No...A lot of people were killed right after the uprisings promoted by Bush 1 in the first gulf war. Many Shia and Kurds killed by Saddam back then. Also, what about all the Iraqis killed on the road form Kuwait? That was horrible death and destruction.

The point is...a VAST majority of Iraqis were living their lives to themselves as workers, merchants, teachers, etc. They weren't living in an open society like US or Europe but they weren't living daily misery. Then...along comes the invasion. Wanton death and destruction. I'm sure later we'll find there were people killed for no reason except they were in an area where some soldiers felt they needed to let off steam. And for a fact we know of countless women and children killed in errant bombings, shooting galleries at checkpoints, etc.

So, for the average Iraqi I bet that was a fair assessment of their regular life beforehand vs. all hell breaking loose after bombing and invasion started.

Still, I'm sure the contrast was a bit over the top. But I also think it is not technically inaccurate so if he wanted it in there he should put it in there.

There was crime, adultery, poverty, etc. in New York prior to 9/11 but you don't see people quibbling about that. In fact, most New Yorkers weren't even directly affected by 9/11...so by same logic...

[Vickers]

67. Hey, our country is pretty fucked up, and I had a cookout yesterday

Is that misleading?

:eyes:

[Skittles]

68. republicans don't give a shit about opression in America

but they care oh so much about the Iraqi people? Give me a break.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. it needed to be brought to our attention?

Yes of course because we are all so fucking gullible that we think Saddam was/is Santa Clause with a Arabic accent.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. PS.... they even had freedom of religion

something they will not have in a year or so when the Islamic fundamentalists have killed off all the Christians, Atheists and Jews who live there.

[LTR]

73. ThePandaBear has left the building

[NJmaverick]

75. Panda Bear

You need to expand your reading material. This was life prior to the bush invasion. What do you think? All Iraqis were living in death camps waiting for bush the great liberator? Why do you think the people threw RPGs at our troops rather then flowers?

[wurzel]

76. Moore said he wasn't trying to show conditions under Saddam.

He said he was just showing trying to humanize the people whose deaths he believes we are primarily responsible for. But even so I'm sure there must have been weddings when Saddam was around. (I have not sen the film).

[Eric J in MN]

77. It was needed to balance Republican spin (nt)

nt

[Q]

78. Hell...

...I actually started to write out a thoughtful response to this thread. But then I realized the author is so uninformed as to be laughable. Suffice it to say that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 or the 'war on terror'.

[theHandpuppet]

79. You have a point...

Perhaps Moore should have woven one of Bush's speeches about Saddam's "rape and torture rooms" with pics of Iraqis being brutalized and let the audience guess which pics were of Saddam's victims and which were our own at Abu Ghraib.

And to be fair, in addition to the voiceover death count of American GIs from this war, the number of Iraqi civilian dead and wounded should also have been given.

Further, as well as providing a count of innocent Iraqis incarcerated by Saddam prior to the war, comparative figures could have been given for the number of innocent Iraqis imprisoned by Americans AFTER the invasion.

Yes, PandaBear, there are many facts and images that could have been presented in F911 that weren't. Yet that wasn't the point. It was/is vitally important for all of us to see Iraqis as human beings first, not the faceless, shadowy "terrorists" so many imagined as painted by our own media and by the relentless propagandizing of the Bush regime. That's the effectiveness of propaganda -- it plays upon our xenophobia and objectifies your enemies so that when we "shock and awe" them it seems for all the world that those we are killing en masse aren't really human at all - not children flying kites, or brides happily preparing for their weddings. The face of Iraq, contrary to that presented by our own media year after year, was not that of Saddam but that of the bride, the child, the merchant, the farmer, the mother, the father, all those who have endured much both at the brutal hand of Saddam and by our own hands. It is upon them that we imposed sanctions that killed their children by the tens of thousands long before the bombs started to fall upon their houses.

It matters not that these faces of Iraq were NOT those of terrorists and were NOT responsible in any way for 911. Year by year, we so managed to objectify them that their mere existence became symbolic of our own deep-rooted fear and racism, so carefully cultivated and exploited by this vicious regime we've come to know as the Bushreich. Never mind that Osama is a Saudi and fifteen of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were Saudis -- to many American minds one Arab or Muslim is like the next , aren't they, so channeling the full measure of our vengeance upon the Iraqis would do.

By turning a blind eye to the humanity of the Iraqi people, we sacrifice our own humanity. That's why it was so very important for Moore to have shown us those very human faces of Iraq, the child and the bride, and why in good conscience we must not turn away when the self-recognition becomes painful. War and killing should ALWAYS be painful. It's full measure of real suffering should forever be horrific to us, bloody and agonizing in its brutality, so that the very notion of war itself is repellent. We can no more turn away from the terrible grief of Mrs Lipscomb than that of the Iraqi mother who weeps for the loss of her own child.

Let us be, in the words of Gandhi, the change that we wish to see in the world. That change begins when we have the courage to recognize the humanity within us all.

[Blecht]

80. Nobody likes the feeling of being manipulated

I think that's what ThePandaBear is experiencing here. At points during the movie I felt myself cringing, too, when I felt my emotions being manipulated.

But all I had to do was to remind myself what is at stake here -- we need to get rid of the neocons and their pathetic front man, and anything that helps that happen is fine by me.

[Stephanie]

83. I'm amazed by people who want to tell you what you SHOULD NOT SEE

MM could have ADDED info about SH without "editing out" anything. How can LESS information be better than more? Censorship is alive and well in this country and it's truly frightening. Had you ever SEEN footage of a normal day in Baghdad? I hadn't. I had seen plenty of footage of the evil SH, though. Lots.

[RetroLounge]

84. ThePandaBear - He disrupted Poorly

Dumbshit...

RL

[Skinner]

87. This person was banned earlier today

I'm locking this thread.