Why do Americans always dress like they're headed to the ballpark?

[qanda]

I was looking at C-SPAN and the people who were paying their respect to Reagan. It looked like a tourist's event with people wearing shorts and jeans. I have never seen such disrespect in my life. When I go to a Funeral, I always make sure that I am dressed appropriately. Did these people think they were coming to help dig the grave? They look terrible! Maybe this says a lot about where our culture is headed because I remember seeing the people in line to pay their respect to Kennedy as being put together and classy. My how America has changed.

[Az]

1. The ballparks tend to not let naked people in

I know... I've tried.

PS if the title changed on the original subject this joke won't make any sense. Now as my sense of humor may be construed as odd to begin with I feel it is necissary for me to document the original post here.

"What is it with Americans and always dressing for the ballpark?"

:evilgrin:

[qanda]

2. Cute...

I think I'll change the title.

[stavka]

197. American's have always dressed like that.....

They just aren't going to the ball park anymore. Have you seen major league baseball's figures lately - just horrible. Everybody must be at funerals.

[LTR]

3. It's California

Seems a little more relaxed there.

Hell, his daughter showed up in a miniskirt!

[Athletic Grrl]

8. If I have legs like Patti

when I'm her age, I'll show up in whatever I damn well please. She looked just fine for the occasion.

[LTR]

10. The years have been kind to her

It was only last decade that she posed for Playboy.

[lancdem]

17. LOL

[readmylips]

19. I noticed how much Patti looks like her Mom....

If and when she cuts her longhair, as she ages she looks a lot more like Nancy, except taller.

I also noticed no Black Americans going through the line. But there are no Black people in wealthy Simi Valley. There is a large Korean community of wealthy Korean/Asians.

I like President Clinton's Library better. It's in the center of commerce, Little Rock, with the intent of bringing jobs to the community. It's not just a show piece. President Clinton, always thinking of the people.

[justjones]

120. Actually there are black folks not too far from Simi Valley....

At least in driving distance. In fact, my home town of Pacoima used to be predominantly black, of course, after being white, but now it's predominantly latino, but still enough in my opinion to be considered a minority community.

In fact, I was completely amazed they named the freeway which I used to drive on frequently, the 118, the Ronald Reagan freeway. I wasn't aware of any strong support for Reagan around where I lived, at least in my estimation.

So I suspect the lack of color you see at the Ronald Reagan memorial in Simi Valley has nothing to do with Simi Valley being a wealthy community, because there are plenty of others who drove from outside of the community, even as far as Northern California, to attend. I suspect it has more to do with the support Reagan received from the black community, which was, like, zero.

Unless you count the countless number of crack-heads I knew growing up or small time drug dealers I knew growing up. I'm sure they would like to pay their respects, that is, if most of them weren't dead or in jail. I'm sure that line would stretch outside of the Reagan library and go on for miles.....

[lanparty]

141. Blacks did come ...

But they were pulled out of line before they could pay their respects. This was an unfortunate misunderstanding. The cops were supposed to give them all speeding tickets before they reached the library ;-)

</impuning Reagan for closet racism>

[justjones]

153. LOL! (n/t)

[shanti]

65. definitely more relaxed here

and we LOVE it this way!;-)

[DeepModem Mom]

4. I totally agree, but I think it's a small minority...

who still thinks appropriate dress is important. To be fair, I've wondered if people dress the way they do because most people can only afford clothes from their local WalMart, where most racks are full of shorts, jeans, Tshirts, etc.

[MsUnderstood]

5. maybe cause it is hot

If you had to go stand in line for hours to look at a dead guy, wouldn't you want to be comfy doing it?

[playahata1]

6. Not everyone dressed up for Wellstone's memorial service,

if I recall correctly.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

9. I would have worn mourning for Paul;

I'd wear a red dress for Raygun's interrement.

[VolcanoJen]

7. I imagine we'll see more appropriate attire in Washington.

I think it might be a Cali thing, too... but the same thought crossed my mind, as I watched this woman standing behind Herr Gropenfuhrer, wearing a ball cap, t-shirt and fanny-pack.

[jdsmith]

14. There will be a lot more tourists coming through DC

It's relatively hard to get to the Reagan Library. But all those school groups in Washington will think of this as yet another gotta-do.

[Cocoa]

11. it's Clinton's fault

his slovenly ways degraded American culture. God willing, with another term with Bush we can recover.

[Vickers]

76. lol

*pssssst* I got it!

:thumbsup:

[ArkDem]

175. Actually, Jimmy Carter was the first casual dressing president.

Remember the sweaters? I'll be thanking him for it until the day I die!

[I Lean Left]

223. Ah, cmon

What could be more casual than Nixon wearing wing tips while walking on the beach?!?!?

[Goldmund]

12. Who defines what's "appropriate"?

Is it written in stone somewhere?

Consitution?

The Bible?

And who are you to enforce these invisible laws?

What if someone wants to show respect by means other than wearing clothes to your specifications?

[AngryAmish]

18. I define what is appropriate

Ok, buddy?

[qanda]

24. I'm not saying to my specifications

But, there are unwritten dress codes for court, church, job interviews and most workplaces. I was just making an observation that it seems times have changed for paying respect to the dead.

[Goldmund]

28. I'm aware there are unwritten dress codes.

But for godsakes, I never signed that I was going to obey them, and I reject this notion that those who refuse to obey them deserve contempt. "Free society" doesn't simply mean that you don't go to a gulag if you speak against the government. It's a much more encompassing concept, and includes freedom of expression -- including the freedom to express respect by means other than what the "unwritten codes" demand, and the freedom to adopt a different expressive language from the one of "unwritten codes".

[qanda]

33. Fine, dress how you wish to express what you want

I just would never think to dress in jeans or shorts to show my respect to any dead person, let alone a president.

[Goldmund]

85. Well, as for me...

...I don't know what it means to show respect to an inanimate object. And even if I did, I would wonder what exactly that "respect" means. And once I decided that, I would think about why what exactly kind of fabric covers my skin has anything at all to do with that.

[catzies]

101. I've been to the Reagan Library. It's not a formal, imposing building

So the dress code just screams casual. And yes, all you'll see are old white people I'll bet.

[Selwynn]

167. I don't think jeans have anything to do with "respect" or lack thereof

If you do.. then act accordingly.

[Speck Tater]

58. Back in the 1970's I interviewed an applicant

for a professional engineering position in my company. We flew him to San Diego for the interview from his home in Chicago. He arrived for the interview wearing worn levis with holes in the knees and a stained T-shirt. I escorted him into the wood-panelled conference room and introduced him to our vice president.

We interviewed him for about an hour and at the conclusion of the interview made him a very good offer, which he accepted.

After he came to work for us his dress continued to be sloppy and informal, but the quality of his work was excellent and highly professional. That's why we hired him. What possible reason could we have given for depriving ourselves of his talent because of some imaginary dress code? Our company was better off with him than without him. Isn't that what matters?

[ikojo]

74. Um.... I attend services at several different synagogues

and each has their own customs regarding dress and it primarily depends on the service. For Havdalah service at either of the two conservative synagogues I attend, it is OK to wear shorts (to the knee) and a polo. Heck I have worn a tie dye to services before.

At the reform synagoguge I attend on occasion, people will wear jogging suits. The rabbi said that she would rather people come in what they are comfortable wearing than not be there at all.

If it's a bar/bat mitzvah of a friend then I'll dress up more but for regular services I am going for comfort.

[Bandit]

41. Believe it or not there are common rules of etiquette

I realize most Americans, uneducated as they are, don't even know the meaning of the word let alone what the rules are.

[Goldmund]

86. Oooh

I must be a serf then. A plebe even. What can I say. I give zero shit what the rules are, and the word "etiquette" itself rhymes with "conformism" and "herd mentality" and has bad conotations in my vocabulary.

[cestmoi]

145. Seems to me that going casual is the new herd mentality.

And your vulgarity. Hardly original.

[Goldmund]

147. That's ridiculous,

because 1) I never suggested that people SHOULD go casual, only that they should be able to wear whatever they want without being looked at with contempt; and 2) "Casual" is not a uniform, formal is; and 3) Shit, shit, shit.

[RememberTheCoup]

152. Half right

You feel people should be able to wear what they want to wear. I agree. You also feel people should not be judged on what they wear. I disagree. You have the right to do what you want, within the bounds of the law; you don't have any right to not be judged by your actions. It's like saying people should be able to support whichever candidate they want without being judged for it. Anyone who wants to support Bush has a right to do so, but the rest of us also have a right to view that person with contempt.

[Goldmund]

154. You have the right, of course

This isn't a legal argument, but one of aesthetics, spirit and temperament. You have a _right_ to be racist too. You have a _right_ to be classist. You have a _right_ to be close-minded and ignorant. And if you're going to judge someone based on what clothes they choose to wear, then, to paraphrase you, the rest of us have a right to view you with contempt.

[RememberTheCoup]

159. Someone I worked with died recently.

The funeral was well-attended, but I noticed that a high-level executive who attended wore casual attire while most of us were dressed appropriately. I was insulted by this. I know this person owns some very expensive suits, so it was like saying this person's death was not worthy of the effort to wear something formal. He placed his own comfort ahead of the feelings of the family. I've also seen people wear very casual clothes at formal church weddings - clothes more appropriate to a bbq -- as if they could not be bothered to wear something formal. It's a sign of disrespect, whether or not you want to pretend it isn't. It shows that you don't take the occasion seriously.

[Goldmund]

161. What about the concept...

...that I may choose to express my respect differently from you do you not understand?

I don't _like_ formal clothes. I feel like a chicken with tits when I'm wearing a suit. I can't stand it. I feel uncomfortable and I feel fake. And I think suits are ugly.

And I have nothing but contempt for the human tendency to blend in, wear uniforms, and the petty small-hearted reward of earning the right to snicker with contempt at those who refuse to follow the rules.

I never signed up to be a part of some army that mandates a uniform.

In addition, it's not like the only option other than a monkey suit is shorts and a baseball cap. Sometimes I like to dress up, too -- but not in a uniform, but purely into my idea of what I think looks good.

[cestmoi]

156. Fornal is not a uniform, it simply means that some effort

and thought was expended in deciding how to dress, that confort was not the sole deciding factor.

[Goldmund]

162. Oh really?

Then you would say that people in a night-club in NYC are all formally dressed?

Or are you saying that effort intrinsically yields wearing a tie if you're a man, for example?

[Zookeeper]

158. "Casual" has become a uniform. n/t

[Rowdyboy]

94. Etiquette is the glue that keeps a civil society "civil"

That's one of the main reasons American society today is so hate-filled and no one respects anything but force and loud voices. Its our loss as a society. I'm so ancient, I can remember when government worked. Democrats didn't hate Republicans and vise versa. But we've moved "beyond" that in our societal evolution. The crassness and hate you see on-line is just one more example of the phenomenon that has turned America into a mockery of itself.


I pity the young, because they'll never know the country I grew up in. It truly is their loss.

[psychopomp]

102. That's right

After spending some time abroad and returning home, I was pretty surprised that shorts, jeans and t-shirts are de rigueur public dress in all circumstances in the US.

And it isn't about non-conformism when everybody dresses in baseball caps and sneakers.

[TahitiNut]

124. "Etiquette" is the way we hide our ignorance ...

... of why people are worthy of love and respect - including ourselves. It's camouflage. It's a "How-To" manual for passive-aggressives. It's a socially acceptable form of lying.
;-)

[Rowdyboy]

125. We just called it good manners and respect but

whatever...

[RememberTheCoup]

136. And what does etiquette say...

...about insulting the entire population of another nation?

[Selwynn]

168. I know them, but I reserve the right to follow my own rules of conduct...

..if they run paralell to rules of "etiquette" which are totally aribtrary anyway, then great. If they don't, then I'll continue to do whatever I feel is right, whether it follows the rules or not.

[Lin]

13. Interesting, -I think it's that most ppl

aren't just going ONE place when they leave the house, some of them probably ARE going to be at ball practice and other such informal places after this ...I almost never run _just one_ errand when out, do you?

I agree in part though-I DO think shorts/halters/visers/baseball hats etc are ridicuously out-of-place.

[indigobusiness]

15. RESPECT? How do you dress to show disrespect? Shorts and jeans...

I wish the men had shown up in beaded gowns, if it would've made him spin.

[Speck Tater]

16. Why is it that some people get all uptight...

... when someone else is out of uniform?

I didn't know we had a National Uniform Dress Code, but apparently we do.

Well put me down for a regular violator of the NUDC, and a resistor against everything it stands for.

[KittyWampus]

42. Why Is It Some People Get All Uptight

when someone just even MENTIONS the notion of decorum?

Dressing in semi-formal attire is a sign of respect for the person being honored, the other people present and ONES SELF.

It helps in setting the TONE of a Ritualistic Event and joining together into a Common Mindset with ones fellows for at least a short moment in time.

Ritual is an important component to Life. It's a damn shame so many on both the Left and Right have no clue how much power there is in attending Rituals and preparing for them.

[TahitiNut]

51. Why Is It Some People Get All Uptight

... when others disagree with their notions of "decorum"?

[immoderate]

52. Semi-formal means tuxedo, morning coat and striped pants during the day

Formal means tail coat and white tie.

I am also against dress codes. All for civility and politeness towards others. But not a requirement to dress for others.

Can you say boo-jwah?

On edit: Look at some pictures from the thirties and forties of visitors to the ball park. They were dressed in coats and ties. And all the men wore hats. Just what you'd want them to wear to a funeral. </irony>

--IMM

[Speck Tater]

55. A sign of respect in whose eyes?

Just because some people see it as a sign of respect doesn't mean that others must see it as a sign of respect. It's a purely cultural thing.

To some people it is disrepectful to wear a hat in church. To others is is disrepectful to NOT wear a hat in church. Which is respectful and which is disrespectful? It's all cultural.

I grew up with the empty rituals of the Catholic church and it has left me with a distaste for ritual. It's meaningless to me, and I don't care to have anything to do with any kind of ritualistic foolishness. One might as well pay one's respects by walking backwards into the gathering while simultaneously rubbing one's stomach and patting the top of one's head. What does it mean? Nothing!

To me dressing in semi-formal attire is not a sign of respect for some dead person, it is a sign of fear that another living person will pass judgement on me and consider me to be inferior, or uncivilized. It's only about keeping up appearances and putting on airs. It's nothing more than conformist role-playing.

If a self-actualized person walks into a room wearing jeans and a T-shirt, while everyone else in the room is wearing a tux, you can bet that all the tux-clad people will notice and pass judgement while the self-actualized person will not notice, and will not pass judgement on others for wearing their tux. In the entire room, only the jeans-wearing self-actualized person will be completely and entirely happy and at ease. Everyone else will be uncomfortable. And that's their choice. Why choose to be uncomfortable over another person's preferences? They choose this only because the person in jeans is "spoiling the game" for them. Too bad. Maybe if they weren't so preoccupied with playing games...

[qanda]

57. You have a point

I am black and perhaps my culture dictates a certain dress code that others don't espouse. I apologize if I have offended any one on this thread.

[KittyWampus]

70. Hogwash, Every Culture That's Ever Been Has A Dress Code

For ceremonial occassions you DRESS THE PART.

[gardenista]

116. You certainly didn't offend me. Let's hope we never meet at a funeral,

but if we do, I'm sure we'll both be dressed to show our respect.

And I'll be proud to know you.

[KittyWampus]

69. You Have A Distaste For Ritual? Too Bad, It's Your Loss.

You disempower yourself because of some childhood trauma.

And a part of Ritual is dressing the part- just as one dresses for a part in a play.

AND CREATING AN ILLUSION IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT. That is what Ritual is all about.

It's a HEALTHY part of social interaction. Part of every culture that's ever existed.

Rites of Passage and Ceremonies to mark them.

But most people are too immersed in their Materialistic mindset to understand how the Subconscious mind and the Imagination works.

And we can also throw in the anti-social aspect. God forbid we come together for some occassion, take off our street clothes, put on a mask and pretend for just a moment that we are greater than the sum of our parts.

[Rowdyboy]

95. Great post!

:thumbsup: Wish I could have said it as well as you did.

Well said.

[KoKo]

103. Nicely said....thanks..n/t

[Pithlet]

203. Yes.

I agree. Getting dressed up, particularly if you're a woman, is uncomfortable. But, sometimes it is a slap in the face to show up to someone's wedding or funeral in casual attire. Knowing when and when it is not appropriate to wear casual clothing shows that you can look outside of your own self needs for one day, for others. Now, if the slap in the face is the intention... :evilgrin:

[kiahzero]

98. I've said it before, and I'll say it again

Responding to a normative argument with "I have a right to do it" is just dumb. I have a right to speak to everyone I meet in complete gibberish; that does not mean that I SHOULD do so.

It isn't limited to things as banal as this; any time someone suggests that one shouldn't say something, the immediate response is "You pro-censorship fascist" or something along those lines. Arguments that one shouldn't vote for a certain candidate are met with the charge that one is against democracy.

[GoneOffShore]

150. You got it right

I've always noticed that when people dress 'up', be it for a funeral, a marriage, a theatre performance, a meal out, that they tend (though not always - witness the contretemps with Princess Michael and the 'well dressed professionals' recently in a Manhattan restaurant) to behave a bit better. Not so loud (which is another issue of Amercians that I could address but won't), not so willing to be as rude as normal. Just my observation.
Besides, it actually feels good to put on a suit and tie occasionally (not too often). Wouldn't wear one to a bike race, but definitely to the Belmont Stakes.

[onecitizen]

20. Hmmm, I was always taught that........

was a liberal trait. You mean CONSERVATIVES do it too?

[hlthe2b]

21. I don't know either..... not the way I was raised...

but an increasing trend in the US... While I'm guilty of sloppy dress to shopping malls, grocery stores, gym, etc., there are places where I would NEVER dress this way, including the workplace, a funeral or church (the rare occasions I've gone lately), and when invited to a social event where dress is not clearly defined...

While many choose to argue the point, dress can and does convey respect (or lack thereof). Sadly Americans go overseas and ignore local dress norms as well, only adding to our rep as "ugly Americans."
I remember well American women wearing halter tops and shorts in Iran shortly before the Shah's ouster during my parents working stint there. It was truly unbelievable in its lack of sensitivity.

But, then again, I've met few Europeans (or people from most other nations/regions) who would have gone to a funeral and flipped a finger for the grieving family members to see. We are increasingly a rude people. Flame away...

[Rowdyboy]

22. Because most people today weren't brought up the way the way you

and I were. It was ingrained to me at an early age to say "sir" and "ma'am", to be polite to adults, to open doors for ladies and dress appropriately for church and formal occasions.

When we went shopping with my mom, we weren't allowed to run through the aisles and yell while mom talked to neighbors. We were quiet in libraries, and if we interrupted an adult conversation, we were promptly told to shut up. Children did NOT come first then; adults did. Causal dress had a time and place and most people knew what was appropriate.

People actually cared what other people thought of them and their reputations. Hell, girls left high school when they became pregnant. When kids got in trouble in class, parents sided with the teacher. Imagine that today?

We, as a country, haven't just lowered our standards of behavior, we've pretty much abolished them. Many people celebrate that freedom. Obviously, I'm not one of them.

[Speck Tater]

64. Disclaimer (or excuse as the case may be)

I went to a Catholic school in the early 1950's. The nuns hated me because I was genuinely curious and asked questions, and wasn't afraid to point out their errors. (I had a nun tell me the sun revolved around the earth. I brought in a library book showing her to be wrong. I spent the rest of the day in to coat closet after having my knuckles smacked with a ruler and having my mouth washed out with green soap.)

I can't remember a single day that ever went by in that school without me suffering some form of punishment or ridicule at the hands of the nuns.

The three things I learned from Catholic school were

1. To hate uniforms and dress codes of all kinds.
2. To despise meaningless rituals.
3. To resist all attempt by anyone to tell me how to be.

So maybe I'm over-reacting, but I wear what makes me comfortable. And if anyone has a problem with that, it's their damn problem, not mine. I won't play that game anymore.

(ed. sp)

[Rowdyboy]

68. I've had lots of friends tell me how horrible Catholic schools were

I was lucky enough to get a good public school education. The only punishment I took were from bullies and one asshole PE teacher/coach. Certainly never went thru anything like a a mouth washing.

Only had to wear a uniform for ROTC and that was voluntary (though we did have basic dress codes-they never really bothered me).

Good teachers encouraged me to think for myself and gave me quality role-models. No one ever tried to tell me "how" to be.

Guess its just the difference in religious education and good public education. Thats one reason I object so strenuously to any attempts to put religion in the classrooms, including headscarves and crosses.
Religion belongs in the church, not the classroom.

[JNelson6563]

132. A study in contrasts

I went to Catholic school for a few years and my experience was quite the opposite of yours. There was no corpreal punishment in my school and the nuns were quite nice though they had rigorous academic standards. My home was a chaotic and abusive place and I found the repetition and predictability of Catholicism to be soothing.

It was a haven for me.

I can honestly say that now, with years of religious study behind me that resulted in atheism.

Sorry to hear your years in Catholic school were so crappy.

Julie

[KoKo]

83. Yes....I understand what you say...grew up the same way...still behave

that way. I'm not a "dinosaur" or misguided in my views because I'm tethered to some "code." I liked much of my "code." I'm sorry to see some of the best of it thrown out with the worst.

Thanks for saying that...although it's a minority view here. Just wanted you to know that there are a "few of us" left here. :-)'s

[Rowdyboy]

93. Thanks, It gets pretty cold out here on the fringes....

I remind myself more of a stereotypical old man every day, and I'm only 50! Give me a couple of years, and I'll give Dennis the Menace's "Mr Wilson" a run for his money as an ornery crank!

I am simply unwilling to let go of the behavioral standards I learned as a child. American society has changed, but right and wrong hasn't, at least not in my Paleolithic mind.

Whatever. I still vote reliably Democratic.

[Zookeeper]

149. I understand...

and say: Embrace your ornery crankiness! You have knowledge and experience. As long as you stay aware of current events and mores, you certainly have the right to state that "A" is a better choice than "B."

I hope that made sense....I haven't had my MDR of coffee yet.

[qanda]

23. From the responses so far

I guess I'm alone in how I was taught to dress when going to a Funeral. I thought people were supposed to look presentable and not like it was laundry day. I even saw men walk by and not remove their hats. I guess it's just me.

I'm not trying to tell people how to dress, but I thought it used to be a given that you dressed a certain way when paying your respect for the dead.

On Edit: Notwithstanding the last two that seemed to be posting the same time I was.

[DeepModem Mom]

25. Hey, pbl! I totally agreed with you upthread...

as did others, and I really appreciated your post. Lazy, inappropriate dress is a pet peeve of mine, too.

[qanda]

30. Thanks

I guess it's a part of my upbringing that won't leave me and people can say what they want, but they wouldn't go to court wearing jeans and a baseball cap. I'm not trying to change how anyone on here dresses, but I will continue to teach my children that there is a code of dress that they should follow for a variety of occasions.

[Athletic Grrl]

40. The early crowd had been there all night.

I'd cut them some slack. Most of the people I just saw on the CNN feed are dressing better than the people who camped out all night.

[qanda]

44. I hope you're right

I haven't watched in the last half hour. However, that still doesn't explain why men would not remove their hats.

[immoderate]

56. Maybe they're Jewish.

--IMM

[qanda]

59. Baseball caps?

[immoderate]

67. They could play for the house of David

Seriously though. Observant Jews must cover their heads at all times, and baseball caps are as acceptable as traditional yarmulkes. I don't mean for going to synagogue. There you encounter the same fashion police as are posting here.

--IMM

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

198. Re: Maybe they're Jewish? Nothing to do with it.

It's not like they were wearing yarmulkes (skull caps).

[KoKo]

84. Yes...I agree, also. Replied to "Rowdyboy's" post above about it...but

wanted to be counted here in approving of your post.

[progressivebydesign]

34. You're not alone..

Of course, I'm someone who longs for the day when people actually dressed up to go out for dinner. We can be a rather slovenly bunch.. even for church and funerals. America is a much harsher place.. much more me, me, me now. If you watch any television here, you'll see that manners have all but vanished, as though they're unhip. I'd rather be a class act, like Jimmy Carter or Hillary Clinton, then something that looks like they just came in from washing their car.

[Rowdyboy]

96. And you, too, are not alone....

There are a few of us on this side of the aisle that realize what has been loss and regret it.

[Tomee450]

37. You are not alone.

I agree with you.

[Zookeeper]

78. Perhaps some people were treating....

the Reagan funeral as more of an event or entertainment than an offical ceremonial occasion.

BTW, you are not alone in being taught to dress appropriately for funerals (and weddings). Even in the 60's, 70's and 80's, it was a given. The message appropriate dress conveys to the grieving family or the happy couple is that you are thinking of them instead of just yourself. A friend sent New Year's Eve party invitations a few years ago that said, "Dress: Like you care." I thought that was gutsy. If someone was offended, they certainly had the option to find something else to do.

I must confess, though, in my everyday life I lean heavily toward frayed jeans, button-down collar shirts and bowling shoes.

[leftofthedial]

26. because we all are

headed to the ballpark.

Besides, the reagan blow-job-a-thon is less important than a ballgame.

Methinks you should stop juding books by their covers.

[baldguy]

27. They ARE going to the ballpark.

Some may not get there for a while, but rest assured - they're thinking about baseball & hot dogs.

[OneBlueSky]

29. it's a sign of the times . . .

if you look at photos of the crowds at any baseball game 50 or 60 years ago, virtually every man was wearing a suit and tie and some king of hat, and every woman was wearing a dress . . . things have generally gotten a lot more casual since then, and I don't think that's a bad thing . . . I find it more objectionable that some men went through the viewing line without removing their hats . . .

[kskiska]

49. Back in those days there was no such thing as "leisure" clothes

Leisure is a relatively recent innovation. People back in the 20s and 30s worked 6 days a week, and household chores took up the rest of their time. Also, there's a generational element. Up until the 50s, teenagers went directly from childhood into adulthood, even being expected to dress in adult clothes as they reached their late teens. With the advent of leisure clothing, a lot has changed in the past 50 years.

At any rate, I'm of the generation that is accustomed to dressing appropriately for occasions such as funerals.

[immoderate]

61. With all due respect

This is just as good a reason for not dressing up. Modern people wear modern clothes.

Should we wear our "party" clothes to a funeral?

Again, this is emotional and irrational. Sure I know what the customary "rules" are. But there is no reason for them. In some places respect is bowing down. I don't expect that here.

--IMM

[gpandas]

31. i'm dressed for comfort always n/t

[yankeedem]

32. Who said they were "paying respect"

Maybe they were just making sure he was dead- in which case they are dressed perfectly.

[loudsue]

129. LOL!!! ROFL!! Best post on the whole thread!

You've seen the light! Ronnie prolly won't see it, not where he's going!

:kick:

[PartyPooper]

35. The question is: what will Pickles be wearing on Friday?

Does she even own any black upholstery material?

:evilgrin:

[Ilsa]

36. I don't think there are any black drapes in the WH

for her to tear down and have her ladies in waiting sew into a frumpy mourning dress for her.

[PfcHammer]

38. I don't think they have a choice. 2/3 sheeple are obese. They simply

don't make attractive, appropriately fitting clothes for the lard assed masses. Hence, the elastic coaches shorts, t-shirts, tank tops, and jogging suits.

[Missy Vixen]

39. Generalize much?

>I don't think they have a choice. 2/3 sheeple are obese. They simply
don't make attractive, appropriately fitting clothes for the lard assed masses. Hence, the elastic coaches shorts, t-shirts, tank tops, and jogging suits.<

I'm beyond knowing how to respond to the above.

Julie

[qanda]

43. That's just not fair or accurate

I have obese people in my family and they dress better than me. I hope you were just kidding.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wellstone_democrat]

66. absolutely hilarious

best line I have read all week---in a week of beauties I might add

Hey, I lost 60 pounds over the last year but still not much more than into "normal" sized clothes---guess I'm a "lard ass" too.

But, back to the point---you dress at something like this I believe out of respect (demonstrated) to the family. If I was inclined to go and pay respects---I'm absolutely not, not even at gun point---I *would* bother to do more than look like a dropped in on my way to the convenience store or the car wash. But, hey, that's me: lard ass.

[gpandas]

53. do they make hats for lard brains?

[doni_georgia]

72. As someone who has way too much lard in her ass, I disagree

I am overweight, but I always dress nice. People who think that
overweight = sloppy are wrong. There are many of clothing stores and brands that cater to those who are overweight. I do not own a pair of stretchy pants (they make anyone but anorexics look fat), I never leave the house in sloppy t-shirts unless I'm going to yoga class. Just because I'm not model skinny doesn't mean I'm unattractive and unable to look nice.

[shimmergal]

121. Maybe so, maybe not; but

T-shirts. especially, look awful on _anybody_, male or female, who's even a few pounds overweight.

And I don't think it's just about comfort. T-shirts are so omnipresent because they're cheaper and simpler to make than almost any fitted clothing, and when cleverly decorated or promoted, bring in about the same price.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. It's really obvious in Japan

where so many of the American tourists go around in shorts, T-shirts, athletic shoes, and baseball caps, while the Japanese always dress up a bit when going out in public. They don't wear suits everywhere or anything like that, but the "utter slob" look is almost unknown.

I don't know if it's the intention, but when someone deliberately dresses down, it comes across as in-your-face brattiness, and it's often accompanied by other types of rude behavior.

There's a way to be unpretentious without being a slob.

[Westegg]

46. Look at 1920s ballpark photos and what do you see?...

...a lot of men in ties and jackets, straw-boaters, etc. Classy, casual elegance. I long for those days. On the other hand, what DON'T you see in those photos? Minorities, women, etc. I DON'T long for those days. Gotta take the good with the bad, yeah?

[mike1963]

47. Woah...does it matter? I threw away all my suits and ties 40 years ago

and don't own anything more 'formal' than jeans which I haven't worn in years. Shorts in summer, sweats in winter is where I'm at. And I don't "do" funerals any more either, I find them to be idiotic and marginally barbaric. If I ever wear another necktie, it'll have to be put on me by some asshole after I'm very dead. And if someone does it, I'll find a way to come back and pee in his coffee. :grr:

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. I think this is pretty much the norm for this country, these days.

I remember the last time my husband and I went to the theater in Chicago. We dressed up and "most" people there were in jeans and a t-shirt. Go to any restaurant. You will always see MORE jeans and t-shirts than nice, dressier clothes....at least in our area it's that way. I would ALWAYS prefer to be overdressed as opposed to underdressed for ANY occassion.....especially a funeral. I would never wear jeans or shorts to a funeral. It's just a tacky thing to do. However, we have "wakes" here. That's 1 or 2 days where people go for visitation and almost everyone wears jeans or very casual clothes to those. But, a president's funeral? Not appropriate. IMCPO

[chelsea0011]

54. This is a very good question

Dressing down is very American. Go to France and you don't have to have a guide in your hands or speak. You still look like you ain't from there. Sneakers, white sox, tee-shirt, and shorts, and a ball cap....the all-american wardrobe.

[gristy]

60. When I go out to dinner, my minimum dress is

nice shoes, dockers, and a button-down cotton shirt. I never wear a hat, though if I did wear one to the restaurant, it would be off as soon as I stepped in the door. To a funeral I wear a coat and tie. Recently to a viewing of a relative I'm pretty sure I wore the docker/cotton shirt outfit (no tie). If I have an opportunity to go to Clinton's viewing (not for a long time in the future, hopefully), you can be damn sure I'll wear a coat and tie or a suit.

People just don't care. Air travel is the absolute worst.

[chelsea0011]

62. Air Travel. It looks like seniors in Florida.

Sweat pants and shirts. Coming back from vacation is even worse. Tacky tees and hats with a crisp red glowing skin and carrying a stuffed animal. Hey, that's me!

[KoKo]

105. Air Travel is the way people used to travel on buses and still do, I guess

Car broke down and I was forced to take a Greyhound somewhere in Virginia about 10 years ago. I can't describe that experience. Soda cans rolling from side to side whenever the bus took a turn, and folks that made me wish I had some "protection" in my pockets. (I don't mean condoms, although that might have been a worry, too). Last time I took an Amtrack about 12 years ago it was pretty much the same...now the airline crowd look like folks just rolled out of bed or were on an all night drunk and the kids seem so stressed out they
scream the whole flight. Who knows...to travel today you probably do need to be dead tired so you don't notice anything or drunk to deal with the stress...(Or, maybe it's just the routes I've traveled)

It would be nice if folks would make an effort..

[immoderate]

63. You put on a suit to sit in a plane?

What's the required dress for a bus?

--IMM

[shanti]

71. sorry

but when you travel, you should be comfortable. i did see one woman on my last flight to oakland to orange county carrying a mink coat over her arm. that's a little over the top, imo.

[gristy]

80. How comfortable?

Sweats? T-shirt? Pajamas? Whose comfort are you referring to? A traveler need only be concerned with their own comfort? And screw decorum and everyone else? Surely that's not what you are saying.

Is it?

[shanti]

117. sweats are ok

shorts, etc. pajamas? don't patronize me. who gives a fuck what someone else is wearing? i have better things to do than worry about clothing.

don't you?

[yankeedem]

193. Reminds me of an old Sopranos episode

Tony and a friend were in a fine Italian restaurant when they spotted a young guy in jeans and a baseball hat. Tony went over and "lurked" over the table, when the guy asked what was what, Tony said "Take your hat off, they don't serve hot dogs here". ROFLMAO.

[dsc]

73. I lived next to two funeral homes for a couple of years

and was utterly disgusted by the dress of many mourners. I just don't get this.

[Piperay]

75. It's a general decline in

all aspects of our society including the lack of civility in the way people treat each other. :-( If you can't dress up a bit for a funeral, I wonder if you ever feel anything is worth dressing up better for. Ironically I think of much of the lack of respect for others either began or increased while Raygun was prez. :-(

[Speck Tater]

174. Since the dawn of history "Change" has always been called "Decline"

by the older generation and "Progress" by the younger generation.

I think that says more about the attitudes of the people observing the changes than about the changes themselves.

I, for one, see this "decline" in the dress code as progress. I'm old enough to remember the dress code of the 40's and 50's and the social repression that it was symptomatic of.

Those same guys who dressed up in suits and ties and tipped their hats politely to the ladies forced the "colored folk" to sit at the back of the bus. Tell me again why they were more "civil" than we are?

Something as shallow superficial as showing "respect" by manner of dress is far less important that something deep and fundamental like showing REAL respect for our fellow human beings.

[RememberTheCoup]

181. Completely unrelated.

Of course civil rights are more important than dress codes. But to say "I'm old enough to remember the dress code of the 40's and 50's and the social repression that it was symptomatic of" is not something I agree with.

***In the 40s and 50s, civil rights were not respected. In the 40s and 50s, people dressed up more for funerals and other formal occasions. Therefore, dressing up for funerals has something to do with discriminating against minorities.***

Ridiculous logic.

[Speck Tater]

182. You missed the point

What I was implying was that people dressed up to "show respect" as a substitute for actually having repsect. When respect is something you can take out of the closet and put on for a special occasion, how real is it?

I'm not saying good dressing caused lack of respect, I'm saying that good dressing was seen as an acceptable substitue for true respect.

[Lars39]

77. It could be that people are dressing in what they can afford.

If you're poor, you tend to buy only work and/or casual clothes. Dress clothes and shoes cost money that is usually needed for other things, like food and housing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. I never heard of poverty-stricken people

taking fully escorted tours of Japan. :shrug:

[Lars39]

99. Oh, you mean the tourist look, the trademarked Ugly American look.

No, I was talking about my own closet there for a few years.
When you're broke you don't go buying clothes you only get to wear once or twice a year. :)

[dsc]

104. that is nonsense

Go to any black church and see how those people, often very poor, are dressed. It would put may of these people to shame.

[Lars39]

106. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt on such things.

It's not always possible to look into people's finances and priorities. :shrug:

[KoKo]

107. I don't know. In the South in the Depression my Grandma said folks could

only afford one good suit or one good dress. The shoes might have had cardboard in the soles, but they were polished. She called it "Sunday Go to Meeting Clothes." It was all they could afford.

Last time I was in my local mall they were practically giving good looking clothes away. An extra 20% off markdowns with coupons in your Weekend paper. Clothes today are so much less expensive than when we "Looked for the Union Label." It's surprising with clothes so cheap, why so few people find occasions to wear something nicer than t-shirt and jeans or t-shirt and shorts. And, our thrift stores are overwhelmed with mens suits and nice dresses from all those folks who are spending, spending, spending supporting the Bush Consumer Economy. There's lots of places to find nice clothes today for very cheap. Money isn't an excuse from what I've seen. It's the excuse that's the excuse...

[Lars39]

110. Society mores.

Not everyone lives near a mall. Our town just got a GoodWill Store a few yrs ago. I've just gone through a 3 yr period where I didn't buy any new clothes because of finances, and it looks like I'm going to go thru another spell, too, because of medical bills. If the money's not there, it's just not there. You do the best you can with what you've got. It's embarassing to know how you should dress and not have the means to do so.

[BeFree]

79. Hilarious thread

Reminded me of Dear Abby, or something.

In this world of trials and tribulations, folks are still worried about the clothes they wear. Not concerned in the least about peak oil, children dying from lack of medicines, or any other of a vast array of real problems. Nope, ya gotta be dressed to be somebody.

No wonder I like the freedom of nudity. We should all quit hiding behind fabrics, and dress with no more than a loin cloth. Put your real face on and go with it!

As for the RR procession: They probably don't respect him, they just wanted to make sure he was really dead.

[KoKo]

108. Who here on this thread do you think doesn't spend 24/7 worried about all

the problems you mention in your post. We wouldn't be here, if we weren't desperately trying to stop the BFEE.

Some of us just think if you are going to a special occasion, it would be nice if you looked like you thought it was special.

And...it's a break from the stuff going on around us to talk about something besides REAGAN.. ;-}

[BeFree]

118. Like i said, KoKo

I prefer nudity. Ya want special? Being nude is special. No two bodies are quite alike. Anyone can change clothes in seconds, but it takes time and effort to change a body.

Anyway, sorry to have butted in on this womanly conversation, ya'll have fun.

[RememberTheCoup]

137. "womanly"?

Oh right, only women care about how people dress. How very progressive of you to say so.

It's funny how the most innocuous posts can bring out the most hateful attitudes. Everyone is a target - fat people, Americans, women...

And I happen to agree with the original poster. When you go to a funeral or calling hours, you show your respect in your dress as best you can. You don't have to dress expensively, just formally and somberly. For the same reason, people speak in lowered voices. Yes, formal clothes can be slightly less comfortable than athletic clothes. I think that's a very small sacrifice to make. And while I feel sorry for people who can't afford one formal outfit, I think that problem is somewhat exaggerated; you have to be pretty badly off to not be able to afford one decent set of clothes. A suit from goodwill is just as appropriate as the most expensive designer suit, for instance. And for men even trousers and a tie, with no jacket, is better than a tee-shirt.

[BeFree]

144. Like I said, Nudity is the best policy

And no, men, for the most part don't judge each other by the clothes they wear. Do you see many fashion shows with male models? Magazines? In fact, most men are more comfortable in Uniform, no?

Thoreau said something like.."Isn't my presence enough? Why Is it that I am also expected to bring presents?"

The mere fact that someone shows up to pay respect should be enough. One should not be judged or looked down on because of their 'cover'.

Ya know, I'm getting a little tired of folks being accused of Hate, when all they are doing is pointing out the obvious. What ever happened to tolerance and respect of personal opinion?

There being a difference between how women think and how men think, viva la difference!, it is not a crime to say so, at least it didn't used to be. The way things are going, it won't be long before any descriptive analysis will be outlawed!

[RememberTheCoup]

146. "men, for the most part don't judge each other by the clothes they wear"

I find that a sexist comment, and I'll bet a lot of others would as well.

Besides, this isn't about whether the people who viewed the body were dressed fashionably, it's about whether they were dressed appropriately. There is a difference. Manners and etiquette are concerned with the latter. It doesn't matter if the clothes you wear are off-the-rack, second-hand, or designer-label. What matters is that you made an effort. And, as another poster pointed out, you can get away with wearing a lot less formal clothes than in the past and still be considered "dressed up". The last funeral I went to I wore a dark sweater set, black pants, and low pumps. I didn't wear a dress with a little hat and gloves. I was very comfortable, and the whole outfit came from Sears and was not at all expensive.

[BeFree]

148. Nudity is even cheaper!

It also uses less natural resources to go nude!

When you go nude, the sexism is more than evident. It can't be hidden or concealed.

Viva la difference!

[Pithlet]

210. "womanly" conversation?

Sexist, much?

[TankLV]

81. Maybe a lot of those that were visiting were just making sure the

son-of-a-bitch was really dead, and no intention of showing any "respect" at all.

Just a thought based in reality.

[cestmoi]

82. Shouldn't question be: Why do Repugs dress like they're headed

for a ballpark?

[Logansquare]

87. Hah, my husband always said that white people dress like hell

for all occasions. We were surprised at our nephew's christening, in a somewhat upscale neighborhood in Chicago--several Dads there in jeans, running shoes and sweatshirts. Like they were just stopping off before hitting the sports bar. You'd never see that in an African-American church on any day, especially christening.

[KoKo]

109. True! African Americans are the best dressed among us...Go by any

church on Sunday with an African-American Congregation. Puts us to shame! It's the only place anymore one can find people who enjoy looking good. Thanks for posting that. And, the kids look great, too!

[misanthrope]

139. So I guess...

...all those black kids I see with their underwear billowing over their pants that are about to fall off, with a jersey or tank-top undershirt on, and not only baseball caps atop their heads, but caps that are cocked and skewed at all kinds of Gomer Pyle angles, that counts as being more sharply dressed?

I don't think you're talking about percentages as much as "style." On the whole, some people, even when dressed-up, are just boring dressers. End of story.

It's not the melanin in your skin, but the individuality within.

[TexasMexican]

88. There isnt anything wrong with Tshirt and Jeans.

[alcuno]

91. Not to pay your respect. It's tacky.

This is why the Europeans can always spot the Americans. We dress like a nation of frumps.

[jus_the_facts]

222. It's even MORE tacky to be disrespectful towards others for their attire..

......but since it's *VOGUE* to be overly judgemental and condesending over *status* and *appearance*...is it any wonder why things are so fucked up...and always will be APPARENTLY?! :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

224. Sigh...

No one on this thread has said anything about status. In fact, many of us have stated that clothing for weddings or funerals doesn't have to be expensive or the latest fashion. It can come from a thrift store for less than $10. Or it can be borrowed.

The point is to acknowledge to the grieving family (or bride and groom, or host/ess who has spent the day making you a lovely meal) that this event is momentous and significant. (Or that you appreciate the hosts efforts enough to say "thank you" by making an effort of your own.) A family that has lost a loved one shouldn't have to even wonder why a friend or co-worker showed up wearing sweats.

I'm not talking about renting a tux or ballgown. By today's standards, just wearing something other than jeans, sweats, shorts or a baseball cap qualifies as appropriate for most situations.

I read your post saying you are having a difficult evening and I'm not trying to aggravate you, but most of the posters on this thread have been thoughtful and aren't making "judgmental and condescending" comments. It is a debate and people have the right to their own opinions.

[jus_the_facts]

226. NO SHIT...so suddenly I DO NOT have the right to voice MY opinion?

....My disagreement with that particular post in this *DEBATE* wasn't an invitation for you to continue to harrass with your *FACTS* again...especially...when I wasn't even responding to you in the first place?? Besides you took what I said and ran with your own perspective of my intent...so give it a rest will ya?! :crazy:

on edit...for the RECORD...I meant that IN GENERAL it's commom practice to condesend and judge people for what they choose to clothe themselves in....it's the STATUS QUO...FUCK bein' a LOGICAL person and be just be happy that someone decided to even GO to their ridiculously overpriced event in the first place...now THAT is what I call TACKY! :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

227. I'm sorry...

My intention was to let you know what had been posted so far since you stated that it wasn't worth reading, but yet you keep insulting people and expressing very strong judgments on what you haven't even read.

F**k me.

[jus_the_facts]

228. LMAO.....

....did it EVER occur for one second that I decided to READ the whole thread...since the ORIGINAL poster and I made amends earlier.....just tried makin' a statement in this DEBATE that went AGAINST what YOU personally wanna believe doesn't consitute any malice on my part either! I clarified MY *intent* in that post above btw! Heh! :D

[hippywife]

89. Historically

dress as a whole has changed. The people you saw filing past JFK wore what they wore on a daily basis. The people you saw today did the same. Dress was much less casual than it is now, as a rule.

[Cleita]

92. In So. CA at this time of year, it probably was a tourist event.

Everyone else is at work, so only the vacationers were probably free to go to the museum. We also have been experiencing a hotter and sunnier spring than normal and the valleys in CA get really hot. You just can't dress up that much even if you want to.

[greatauntoftriplets]

97. Women at my office (not me) routinely wear clothing 2 sizes too small.

And show off their chubby midriffs. We're supposed to be "business casual", but no one sets standards.

[TahitiNut]

126. Lots of folks do. It's not just how it looks, though.

It's unhealthy. Our bodies should be able to move and flex freely. When I see young women wearing tight hip-huggers, high heels, and other forms of bondage, I have to pity their future physical health. It's like binding the feet of Chinese girls. Fashion? Bah! I'll take clean, loose-fitting, natural fabric clothing every day of the week -- especially on Sunday.

[greatauntoftriplets]

140. Bondage, I like that analogy....

Now I will get the giggles every time I see these women.

Because I am 5' 10" and have a penchant for spraining my ankles, I never wore high heels -- maybe 1 1/2 inch at most. Yet my feet are still screwed up. About 10 years ago I switched to wearing flats all the time and have never regretted that decision.

[TahitiNut]

143. There's nothing more attractive than healthy behavior, imho.

Emotionally, intellectually, and physically healthy behavior (imho) includes hygiene (no dirt or grease called "make up"), clothing that fits without bondage, social behavior that conveys maturity and empathy, and personal behavior the reflects healthy self-esteem ... making any thought of bodily decoration and false fashion facades incongruent.

I've met two people (both women) in my life that personified the word "grace" and they both met all of the above standards. Further, people were free to feel good about themselves in their company. They both conducted themselves in a manner that would make Miss Manners seem gross, clumsy, and fumbling in comparison. One, of my mother's generation, I'd aspire to be related to. The other I still love -- at least the memory of meeting her and being in her company.

[Zookeeper]

164. But,but, but....

some people ENJOY adorning themselves, it's aesthetic...a creative expression. I'm not particularly flamboyant myself, but I can recognize that "bodily decoration and false fashion facades" can be as much an art as creating an attractive home or a beautiful garden. There is something to be said for a little playfulness and frivolity.

[TahitiNut]

165. Yes, and some people enjoy sado-masochism, too.

Not me. :shrug:

[Zookeeper]

170. I'm not sure how that equals s/m...

but "healthy" doesn't have to be the same thing as dull, drab and boring. Your view of what is attractive would feel like bondage to some.

[TahitiNut]

171. So, without cosmetics women are "dull, drab, and boring"??

What a shame. (I haven't noticed this, myself, strongly preferring the "fresh out of the shower" condition.)

I personally find artificial scents, tattoos, piercings, dirt and grease (make-up), and baubles and beads rather primitive, ignorant, and unhealthy. I use absolutely none of these myself and regard "less is better" a reliable guide.

Lipstick, for example, was originally "invented" by French courtesans (prostitutes) who'd use the red grease to mark a "depth gauge" on a man's penis. It was a form of "advertising." In the salons of the time, other women adopted this affectation as a "risque" and "avant garde" fashion. That, of course, was when women were widely viewed as chattel.

[Zookeeper]

173. You didn't appear to be referring only to cosmetics...

and personally, I'm not into make-up myself, but I would hardly go so far as to make black and white judgements about other women who do enjoy adorning themselves. I didn't say, "without cosmetics, women are dull, drab and boring." What I was saying is that your rigid view of beauty comes across as puritanical and just as oppressive as the view that women "should" wear the latest fashion and tons of make-up. You are equating decorative self-expression with, "dirt, grease, primitive, ignorant, unhealthy and prostitutes."

I think women and men should be able to creatively adorn themselves, if that is an artistic self-expression they enjoy.

[TahitiNut]

190. "rigid"? "puritanical"? "oppressive"?

When did anyone appoint me King of the World? I'm unaware of any law-making that would subordinate itself to my personal views. Nowhere did I either argue or infer that I'd prohibit such behavior, no matter how unattractive, unhealthy, and unintelligent I view it.

However, lest any female assume that "guys" like such adornmnet, I'll put myself on record as a "guy" who does not. But I'm not much of a fan of Dolly-Parton-esque mammaries, either. She's a handy example. While I find her public personality engaging and likable, I find her habits of adornment (clothes, hair, makeup) repellant -- and culturally brainwashed.

[Zookeeper]

200. Wow! Does this qualify as a flame war?

If so, it's my first. Now I feel like a real DUer! }(

TahitiNut, I am aware that you are expressing your opinion and not trying to make law. But, go back to your posts and look at the highly charged words you used when you refer to women who wear make-up and dress fashionably. Make-up is not inherently any "dirtier" than hand lotion or Chapstick. Wearing cosmetics and the latest fashion is not a reliable indicator of health or self-esteem. I've met plenty of women who dress plainly and don't wear make-up that have lousy self-esteem. You have a preference for "natural" looking women. Fine. But, unless you are TRYING to insult "non-natural" looking women, you may want to express your preference in a less harshly judgemental way.

BTW, you would probably approve of MY dress and hygiene, so this isn't personal. However, I can't resist playing Devil's Advocate for people who gain pleasure from expressing themselves creatively and colorfully through dress. I'm tired of terminal tastefulness. The world would be a drabber, greyer place without some Dolly Partons.

"The chief enemy of creativity is good taste." - Pablo Picasso

"It is good taste and good taste alone, that possesses the power to sterilize and is always the first handicap to creative functioning." - Salvadore Dali

[TahitiNut]

216. Nawww... I don't "do" flame wars.

While I detected a bit of hyperbole, I'm not offended nor taking anyting personally. Nor, should I note, do I run amok with HandiWipes cleaning women's faces or throwing paint on their "fashions."

However, if one of my female neighbors, friends, relatives asked my "does this make my butt look fat?" I'd suggest going for walks 4-5 times a week wearing cotton sweats and tennies. (I could use the company get myself off my fat ass.)

It's a pet peeve of mine ... one I developed as a young adult in 1963-4 Mobile (AL) where the "fashions" made me think of circuses and year-long Halloween.

"Big hair" :puke:
Tammy Faye eye shadow :puke:
High heels :puke:
More bracelets than a Watusi chief's wife :puke:
Pancake make-up (pore cloggers) :puke:
Girdles :puke:
Polyester :puke:


Clowns.

Show me a region where Revlon and Maybelline sales are low, you never see a pink cadillac, there are walking trails, and places to swim ... I'll probably love it.

[Zookeeper]

219. I was a little kid in 1963...

So, the things you listed sound delightfully campy to me. (Don't ask me about the 70's though...)

I lived in S.F. for ten years and I think seeing drag queens parody that "look" also made me appreciate the humor in it.

As I said earlier, I'm pretty tired of suburban beige tastefulness. The alternative doesn't have to be everyone wearing what you've described, but it would be nice if people felt freer to be creative and colorful and not so safe.

I think you'd love Minnesota. Lots of places to swim, lots of walking trails. 'Can't recall ever seeing a pink caddie around here (damn!).

[1gobluedem]

160. You have a point

I work in a very casual work environment too but I set some standards for the staff. Why? Because my former assistant would wear a Hawaiian shirt with topless women on it. As a woman, I find that offensive. And people always take the casual thing too far -- shorts turn into cutoffs. Sandals turn into filthy flip flops. Baseball caps provide a great excuse for the student help (I work on a campus) to slide in without taking a shower. Saying t-shirts are okay leads to t-shirts with obscene messages on them.

I'm all for casual and comfortable but not dirty and sloppy. And there is quite a difference -- both in how one looks and how one works. I've found the sloppier people dress, the sloppier their work gets.

[sadiesworld]

100. How true...

The rethugs spent years denigrating Clinton's WH staff for working nights and weekends in jeans (and drinking coffee out of Styrofoam cups!), thank heavens we got the do-nothing-while-nicely-dressed-*-staff!

I, for one, am happy we have our priorities straight.

[immoderate]

111. Apparently there's always time for provincialism.

People should have the respect to not be dirty and not smell bad.

Otherwise, I think this should be a free country. Oh, sorry, is that out of line?

--IMM

[Zookeeper]

112. Perhaps I'll kill this thread by noting...

that "dressing up" by today's standards can be as simple as just wearing something OTHER than jeans, shorts, tees or sweatpants. Thrift and consignment stores sell pants and dress shirts for three to five (or so) dollars. Or borrow something! It's more about looking like you've made an effort and are acknowledging that the occasion is special or significant. It doesn't have to be expensive or the latest fashion. A wedding or a funeral is not about YOU! (Unless it's yours...)

[LWolf]

113. shorts and jeans aren't disrespectful

and fashion is a matter of perspective.

What I think is "put together" or "classy" or appropriate may be totally different than another's taste. Your cultural norm may be different than mine; in spite of mass media, we don't all share the same cultural values. Does "classy" infer some sort of measurement of social/economic class?

I think being clean, wearing neat, clean clothes that fit, are in good repair, and appropriate to the physical activity is all that is necessary.

The rest of it is irrelevant. I wish I lived on a planet that valued actions and intent rather than looks when deciding on the quality of a human mind, heart, or spirit. The way the inside of the person is put together is a better indicator of elegance than what they cover their skin with, imo.

[Zookeeper]

119. I hear you, LWolf...

and I agree with most of your comment. However, jeans, sweats and tees have just as much of a message attached to them as any other piece of clothing. The message usually is, "I want to be comfortable, casual and not put too much effort into my appearance."
For many activities that's fine. But, if a host or hostess puts a great deal of effort into entertaining a guest and making things special, it's nice for a guest to acknowledge the special occasion by wearing something other than everyday clothes. It can be an opportunity to be flamboyant, creative and fun and wear something that would look really weird at the grocery store. It strikes me as a way of saying "Thank you for your effort. I'm making an effort too."

For a funeral, wearing something more formal than everyday clothes sends a message to the grieving family that the death of their loved one is not a casual, everyday occurrence; that it is significant.

I'm not so fussy about clothing worn to restaurants. If I'm at a "nice" restaurant for a very special occasion, it brings me down a bit sometimes to see people dressed like they are just taking a break from their jog. But, I figure if I'm in a public place, that goes with the territory.

[shimmergal]

122. Casual and "not too much effort" I can agree with.

But am I the only person here who simply doesn't find blue jeans comfortable?

T-shirts (or any knit tops) aren't really comfortable here for five months of the year either, what with our 114-degree temps.

Shorts, yes. But more comfortable than any of these is a soft dress --the kind that it's hard to find anymore. Sorry--I know even this is only an option for the female side of the population, unless the men want to experience more negativity than the guy who suggested wearing NO clothes.

But I'm a bit dubious about assertions that comfort is the reason that people wear t-shirts & jeans everywhere. I think they're brainwashed, that these clothes express an image they want to convey.

[Zookeeper]

123. Well, shimmergal...

if I lived in a place where the temperature reached 114, I wouldn't find jeans comfortable either!

When the weather is hot and muggy here, I usually wear capris and short sleeved shirts. Otherwise, for everyday living, I do find jeans comfortable (I've never felt all that comfortable in a dress). I have three kids, garden, do woodworking, draw and paint, have lots of pets and I'm the family handyperson, so I like wearing something sturdy and washable. And if I wipe my dirt or paint-covered hands on my jeans, it's no big deal. Most importantly......I don't have to iron them!!!!

That said, I wouldn't wear my jeans to a wedding, funeral or special-occasion restaurant.

[LWolf]

135. That makes sense.

And I think the message is accurate; checking with myself, I find that "I want to be comfortable, casual and not put too much effort into my appearance," fits me to a T. The comfortable is a given. If more "formal" clothing could be more comfortable, allow for freedom of movement, etc., I'd wear it more often. The effort on appearance is a personal issue. In my younger years, I spent effort on appearance. And found that people valued me for my appearance, not for myself. And when age and life took it's toll, my "value" went down. I like to be clean and neat; but I don't put any effort into being stylish or drawing the eye. I'd rather pass unnoticed, except for those who value what is underneath.

If I am attending a funeral or wedding, I will probably wear whatever fits the norm for the people involved. In the case of a funeral, the dead don't mind what I wear; those left behind need to know that I'm honoring their loved one and comforting them in their grief. So I will wear what I believe passes muster with them. Except in the case of my first ex-husband. When he died, we hiked to the top of a craggy cliff for a memorial service and to release his ashes. We all wore jeans, tshirts, comfortable hiking boots, etc.

In the case of a U.S. president, it is a formal occasion and should probably be more formal; except that the number of people who want to attend a "viewing" might be large enough to mean hours in line. At that point, your formal wear had better be suited to standing for a long time (shoes) in whatever the weather is. Still, the nation doesn't have one set of norms, we have many. Often defined by social class, and the president is the president of all those groups.

[Zookeeper]

155. As far as the Reagan viewing...

I don't have strong feelings about the way people were dressed. Like I said earlier, I suspect that for some folks it was more of an event or entertainment. And someone else made the point that there may have been a lot of tourists in the crowd as well. If Reagan's family members were there greeting people, that would be different.

I completely understand the middle age thing. I have mixed feelings. I remember sitting in a mall people-watching when I was in my very early twenties, and suddenly recognizing that the middle-aged women were "invisible." Their value as sex objects had dropped, so they were no longer interesting enough to be noticed. They certainly looked more comfortable than the girls who were constantly primping and checking out their reflection in the store windows. Now, I'm becoming one of "them," and I like being more comfortable....but, even being a bit of an introvert, I'm not sure I want to go quietly into invisibility. Despite my "traditional" views on how to dress for a wedding or funeral, I'm pretty damned contrary and assertive. Sometimes I want to be noticed because I'm alive, intelligent, spirited and I have a lot to say. It's not about being sexy as much as saying, "We're HERE, we have power, experience, opinions and don't think you can just sweep us under the rug because we've passed prime breeding age!"

[LWolf]

221. I'm really enjoying this conversation.

I agree about the "event" value of the Reagan viewing.

I'm more intrigued with your perspective about using dress to assert your presence. My mom, in her late 60s, has always done this. I want to ponder this idea awhile.

Thanks!

:hi:

[Zookeeper]

225. Thank YOU, LWolf!

I think this is the second time we've shared thoughts on a thread. We seem to be in a similar place.:)

[gardenista]

114. How would Reagan have dressed to go to their funerals?

You go to a funeral to "pay your respect". I am with you, pbl, in thinking that it's not appropriate to wear shorts or jeans in that situation. Unless the funeral is on the beach.

Wow, I remember when Bobbie Kennedy was killed, and our whole family was devastated. His body was brought by train through our town, and the entire town turned out to put flowers on the track. Everyone was dressed in the best clothes they could muster up. And that was to stand by a train track. Silently.

As a child, one of the reasons I knew that it was an important, historic day was because my mom spent an hour getting us dressed and ready. It was a reverent, respectful thing to do, and I will continue to dress that way for funerals. I can't imagine anything else.

[theboss]

115. Men used to wear ties to ballparks

Society as a whole is getting more crass. I'm ready to lose my mind over the way people in my office dress.

There are two main reasons for codes of conduct/dress/civility. First, traditions are how we maintain civil society. They are a connection to our shared past. They are means to civil interaction among people.

Think of the handshake. Why do we do it? Basically, because someone somewhere told us to do it. But it is part of our shared protocol and is the way people begin interactions with one another. It's a key.

Same with dress codes at funerals. Dressing respectfully is a key into the mindset of mourning and a manner of paying respect.

The second reason is that dress dictates behavior. My father has been an elementary principal for 30 years. He always says that the easiest day of the year is picture day. When kids dress up, they behave. Same with adults.

[Speck Tater]

176. The men who used to wear ties to the ballpark

would refuse to sit next to a black man, and were scnadalized by the idea of letting "colored people" play baseball.

So how was their superficial "respect" superior to real respect of a person who wears a T-shirt and respects his fellow humans regardless of skin color?

Dressing up in some particular costume or another does not make you a better person. In fact, in many cases it seems to give people license to behave in a most disrepectful manner.

The German SS had the sharpest looking dress uniforms in the history of the planet. Did being snappy dressers make them more respectful?

[theboss]

178. I don't see your point

First of all, you don't know if the men would not sit next to a black man but feel free to paint with a large brush.

But the point is, the way one dresses often does impact the way one behaves. Are you trying to say that there is no difference in the way you carry yourself from when you are wearing a suit to when you are wearing shorts?

I don't believe that. And if that were the case, people should just wear pajamas everywhere.

[Zookeeper]

180. Hmmm....

I'll bet there are still lots of racists at the ballpark, wearing t-shirts and shorts.

And I seem to remember that MLK, JFK and plenty of minority men wore suits and ties also.

This issue is simple courtesy to a grieving family. Insisting on wearing shorts, jeans or sweats to funeral because you have the "right" to wear them, or because you are more comfortable and that way and everyone else should take the time to discover your inner beauty is making the occasion about YOU instead of being about easing a family's grief.

[Art_from_Ark]

127. I attended the Hiroshima memorial service in August 1989

Wearing shorts and a shirt, I took an all-day train to the city, which I reached after dark. All the hotels were full, but the stationmaster said that I could camp out at the Peace Park. In the station, I met up with two other guys, one from Norway and the other from Japan, who were dressed more or less like I was. We went to the park together, where we met others from the US, Japan, Canada and Europe, who had also come to show their respects for the victims of the bombing. It was summer, and hot, and they were dressed like it was summer and hot.

The next morning was the service. Of course, the dignitaries were dressed in their suits and ties, but the vast majority of attendees there weren't. This ceremony was about as solemn as one could imagine, and many people were deeply moved by it.

After that, kids from the local high schools came up to us and asked us for our opinions of the bombimg and nuclear weapons in general. "Kakuheiki wo nidoto tsukawanai you ni" I replied with resolution. "May nuclear weapons never be used again". When the kids heard that, their faces lit up and they clapped, they were so happy.

It didn't matter to them what I was wearing on the outside, what mattered was what was inside.

[TahitiNut]

128. Yeah... things were so much better in "Pleasantville"

Now, those Stepford Wives sure do have the right idea! :eyes:

[loudsue]

130. A stranger thread I've never read

Not on DU, anyway.

I've avoided this thread all day because I thought it was prolly one of those "we should be better than that" threads.:shrug:

:argh: I HATE THOSE!!! :nuke:

However, I have to admit, there have been some good points made -- on both sides of this issue on this thread.

I think the revolution of the 60's changed a lot of the dress and etiquette "codes" that had been in place for generations. They were part of the "establishment", and were part of the "conformity" that was rebelled against. It stuck, for many of us, and thereby found its acceptance throughout the general culture, and for subsequent generations....the underclassmen who looked up to us in school, and their -- and our -- younger siblings, our kids....and so it went.

The later (disco) 70's and early 80's changed SOME of that for special occasions, but somehow the idea of "style" in clothing took a dive.

I think the clothes at the stores for the past 15 years or so have been really UGLY :puke:!! What you see on the racks in the department stores these days look like yard sale rejects, for the most part. (At least, the women's clothes do, to me.) The fabric is not high quality, and the styles are TOTALLY boring...especially for "knocking around" clothes.

I think we need another revolution -- and some new kewl clothes, while we're at it! You know...clothes that are fun to wear almost anywhere, that are also comfortable!

:kick:

[paulie5]

131. Dressing for a funeral

If you look closely you'll notice that everyone is wearing their underpants on the outside so it can be checked twice daily.

[stavka]

133. More Americans can't afford a suit than ever before.

Specific guy in a box thoughts aside - if it were me, I'd just be happy to have people who liked me to show up.

I liken it to people thinking there is an inappropraite way to dress for church.

Not in my way of thinking about the message of Christ.

[sendero]

134. I agree...

... I'm no Dapper Dan by any means, but wearing shorts and a ballcap to such an event is simply tacky. And maybe I'm old-fashioned but dressing appropriate to the occassion just seems like basic consideration for others to me.

[FlaGranny]

138. Back in the

1940's and 1950's people went to the ballpark dressed like they were going to a funeral!!!! Men wore suits, ties, and hats, and women wore dresses or suits and hats.

Back then, men didn't go more than two weeks without a hair cut, either.

Times change - but I still wouldn't go to a funeral dressed in shorts and a tank top.

[lanparty]

142. Did Ted Nugent show up ...

...smeared from head to tow in his own feces.

Common folks, it could ALWAYS be worse. Behavior is a little more important than dress.

If someone walked up to the casket and starting laughing his ass off, THAT would be really inappropriate.

[IrateCitizen]

151. Contrast it with visiting either the Vatican or St. Mark's in Venice...

My wife and I visited both while touring Europe for our honeymoon. We had to wait for both in 90-degree heat under a blazing sun. In order to get in, you could not wear shorts or a skirt above the knee, and you had to have your shoulders covered -- NO EXCEPTIONS.

I actually saw the security turning people away who had waited in line for these reasons. It's not so hard to enforce a certain level of decorum -- you just have to stick to it.

[jokerman93]

157. On Saturday I saw

On Saturday I was waiting for my BART train home from the anti-war march in San Francisco. The matinee show of Lion King had just let out. I noticed a middle-class looking family on the platform. They were dressed nicely. The man had on a sport jacket, tie and a pair of pressed slacks. The boy, who was about six years old, was dressed in a jacket and tie as well. The mother was dressed in a nice print skirt and a shawl. I thought it was refreshing that they celebrated a special afternoon at the theater by dressing nicely for the day.

Some people forget that the way some of us choose to dress nicely on special occasions isn't a reaction to other's expectations. It feels good to dress nicely and show respect to others by taking the time and care to do it.

Baseball caps and shorts are fine, but Americans are terribly self-absorbed if they think dress is all about their own convenience and
self-expression. It's about allot of things. Maybe Americans are all spectators now, that's why the uniform is ballpark casual 24/7. Dress communicates who we think we are.

[Bunny]

163. My dad died last year. In February. In Western PA.

During a brutal cold snap. There were quite a few folks who showed up at the viewing wearing jeans, flannel shirts, etc. You know what I remember most? That they showed up. Not what they were wearing.

They stopped in to pay their respects, many on their way to or from work. It mattered to me that these folks came - I did not care what they were wearing. If he had died in July, they probably would not have worn shorts and tank tops, most likely just jeans and sport shirts. And that would have been okay with me.

Having said that, I would not go to a funeral home in jeans, or God forbid, shorts. I simply wouldn't go unless I was dressed in a way that I felt was appropriate.

Now, if I were going to a ball game, the last thing I'd want to wear is some starched June Cleaver dress. That is simply ludicrous.

If I were travelling, especially on a plane, I would wear comfortable stretchy slacks with a loose blouse. Travel is stressful enough without tugging at your clothes, panty hose, heels, etc. To suggest that there is something inappropriate about dressing for comfort is, again, ludicrous. I can assure you that I will not be looking at your attire, so please ignore mine. Thanks.

[RememberTheCoup]

177. and what if they HAD worn shorts and tank tops?

I'm not saying this as a challenge to you since you've stated that you attempt to dress appropriately to such occasions. But I'm trying to point out to others that clothing can indicate a level of respect. If the funeral were in July, you say you wouldn't mind if people wore jeans and sport shirts, but you seem to also be saying you wouldn't expect people to wear shorts and tank tops. I can imagine that if someone did show up wearing such an outfit, you might be at least somewhat offended. I know that I would be if people wore such a thing to my father's funeral.

Of course, what is considered making an appropriate effort to dress well can vary depending on the circumstances, just as standards change over time and from region to region. Clothing that would have been far too casual a few decades ago is now passable. Attire considered casual in one part of the country might be considered semi-dressy by others. I was offended when a high-level executive wore very casual attire to a co-worker's funeral because I knew that such a person had plenty of nice suits and also because the person being in such a high position made the insult more stinging - as if this person wasn't high enough on the ladder to bother dressing up for.

[Bunny]

191. Yeah, shorts and tank tops at dad's viewing would have

probably pissed me off somewhat!

As far as the hi-level exec, I can see how you could be offended, especially if it came across as your deceased co-worker wasn't "worthy" of dressing up for. That was a crappy thing to do, for an executive to show up at an employee's funeral in less than somber attire sends a bad message to all the other employees.

[Selwynn]

166. Fuck that.

If you want to dress differently do so. I'll dress in whatever way feels best to me.

Who decided what was "appropriate" anyway? I'll make my own decisions about how I dress.

[theboss]

169. I once didn't hire someone for wearing the wrong shoes to the interview.

So, in a way, I decided what was appropriate.

[DrWeird]

179. That's pretty sad.

Were they at least the right faith, gender, orientation and skin color?

[Zookeeper]

184. Gender, orientation and skin color...

aren't choices. Most people have control over how they dress for a job interview.

So, let's say you had to have surgery and you "interviewed" a couple of surgeons. They both seemed to have the same qualifications and similar personalities, but one of them has on a dirty coat and worn out shoes. Would it influence your decision?

Or you own a business and are hiring someone to sell your product. One of your applicants is wearing business clothes and a pair of dirty Converse sneakers. Maybe you don't mind the outfit, but it would be foolish to assume that your prospective customers wouldn't.

It is very naive to think this doesn't matter in a business setting. (I'm Ms. Anti-Business Herself, but even I can see that.)

[theboss]

186. He was an attorney

And he showed up (on a dry day, I might add) wearing muddy, brown penny loafers with a black suit. I'm sorry, but I had ten equally qualified applicants. I decided that he wasn't terribly interested since he clearly didn't plan for this interview in advance.

And don't give me the "Maybe he was too poor to afford decent shoes" argument. A 30-year-old can go to Payless and get a cheap pair of black dress shoes to go to a job interview.

[Zookeeper]

202. And it doesn't cost anything to brush the mud off. n/t

[Speck Tater]

183. That was one very lucky person.

If my boss ever gave me grief about my shoes I'd walk out the door. There's no way I would work for someone who places more importance on foot gear than on competence. That's just wacko.

Unless, of course, you're on the east coast. I've heard that kind of wackiness is prevalent back there.

[theboss]

187. It was an interview.

He apparently didn't want to impress me very much. He succeeded in his goal.

[Speck Tater]

189. Just to set the record straight

Am I correct in assuming this happened either east of the Mississippi or in downtown San Fransisco or downtown Denver?

I think geography might have more to do with it than has been acknowledged here. Things that seem perfectly reasonable in Manhattan or Denver seem downright silly in Tucson or Seattle, while things that look normal and conventional in Burbank or Sante Fe would look pretty tacky or even threatening in Chicago or San Fransisco.

[theboss]

192. Outside Washington, DC

You also have to keep in mind that I view "The Way You Wear Your Hat" about Frank Sinatra's sense of style as a holy book.

[GoneOffShore]

188. The whole package

is considered whenever I hire someone. Their resume, their behavior, their demeanour, the way they present themselves. The clothes are part of the package, in the same way ones business card is when one makes a sales call.
My financial guy always shows up in a jacket and tie, and I've said to him that he doesn't have to. His reply is always that he has clients that would be shocked if he didn't wear a tie and he would lose business.
When I send a bill to someone I send a printed invoice, not something scribbled on a dirty sheet of legal pad or the back of a paper bag.
If one wants to appear professional, one dresses and acts professionally. I really don't care if people show up for an interview in jeans and torn sneakers, but they should realize that I'm not going to hire them if they do. After they are hired the standards are bit more relaxed, but not as relaxed as some people here would like to see.

[stavka]

196. I did that too...

Now understand they were wearing scuba diving flippers for a school bus driving position, but I am still uncomfortable with my choice

[Selwynn]

229. I wouldn't want to work for you in the first place...

..so I kind of decided that a place that wouldn't hire me becuase I wore the wrong kind of shoes is a place I wouldn't want to work anyway.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

172. because we're smart and if you were gonna spend 3 & up hours driving......

to get there and then spend an additional 5 to 7 more hours waiting to board buses from the parking lot 12 miles away from Reagan's Library, to pay your respects you sure as hell better have on comfortable clothes and NOT them ...ties, pantyhose and 20 mintue type shoes...

just my $0.02

[West Coast Democrat]

185. So many people dress like that all the time....so trashy

My husband and I hate it when we go out to a nicer restaurant, for example, and there are people there wearing crappy flip flops and baseball caps, etc. It also bothers me when people go to classical concerts or the like, wearing jeans and t-shirts.

[TahitiNut]

194. I guess for many, every day is Halloween!

Costumes, costumes, costumes. :eyes:

We're often so completely brainwashed by pop culture and consumerism "fashion" that we're not even aware of it. Our tastes are far more affected by what we're told than we even realize. Who says 24x7 propaganda doesn't work? Gotta have those logos. Gotta drop 3 months earnings on that engagement ring. Keep up with the Joneses. (Sheesh!) :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

201. Ya know...

the fashion world and fashion "rules" are not what they used to be. Back in the old days, every season had a new style that "everyone" was supposed to be wearing. The next year it was out. Women are not willing to be manipulated that way anymore. Teenage girls and young women are more vulnerable to corporate brainwashing, but most women don't have the time, even if they have the money, to fool around with clothes that come with an expiration date. The women I know dress appropriately for their jobs, dress up for a special occasion, and otherwise are too busy to care much about the latest fashion.

[jus_the_facts]

195. WTF?? I guess bein' SHALLOW isn't just a puke trait these days....

....who gives a FLYIN' FUCK THRU A FLAMIN' HOOLA HOOP what people WEAR or don't wear?? :puke: *PROJECTILE* :puke: AWARD...all over this shallowest of threads EVER on DU!! :eyes:

[qanda]

199. Wow! I won an award

I'm so proud.

I guess you didn't bother to read the thread-- it was actually a pretty interesting discussion. It seems that my idea about proper attire for funerals is borne out of my culture and upbringing. What's your excuse for being so rude?

[jus_the_facts]

204. I didn't BOTHER because it's IRRELEVANT and not worth my TIME!

....so don't flatter yourself by thinkin' for a second that this *discussion* is interesting...we've got much more pressing things to discuss than peoples f'n wardrobes! :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

206. Wow!

Tell me what is more important than caring about the feelings of a friend who is grieving for a lost loved one? I'm as wildly political as anyone here, but the reason I'm a liberal is because I think people deserve to be treated with compassion and respect. The "personal" IS political. "Peoples f'n wardrobes" have more meaning than you think.

[jus_the_facts]

208. Alrighty then....

....if that *friend* cared more about what clothes I was wearin' instead of WHY I was there then ...Uuuugh...this is yet another FINE example of why we're sooooooo screwed! :eyes:

[Zookeeper]

209. Your point has been explored in this thread....

which you haven't read.

[jus_the_facts]

212. Woooopiddy DOOOOOO!

.....I gave MY OPINION...so EXCUUUUSE ME! :eyes:

[qanda]

207. I think there are variety of things that we can discuss without

Being deemed irrevelant. There are some things that are discussed on this forum that I feel aren't worth my time and so I don't bother hijacking the thread with mean, rude comments. You came out of your way to call this thread the most shallow ever and then you admit that you didn't even bother to read it. :shrug: Some people never cease to amaze me.

[jus_the_facts]

211. HA....yeah I agree....AMAZING is the KEY word here....

...I hijacked NOTHING only stated MY OPINION...all you really are sayin' is....how DARE some people not DRESS like I think they should....MANY people aren't ABLE to afford nice new clothes to SUIT YOUR standard of what's deemed *correct*....I don't CARE what else was stated in this thread...your post alone was all I needed to read to state what I did...I'm not interested in the LEAST in asinine banter about goddamn CLOTHES! eyes:

[qanda]

214. You're sounding a bit angry

I truly hope I haven't offended you. As I stated earlier in the thread, it was definitely not my intention to offend.

I think my point had more to do with showing respect than trying to tell people how to dress. I realize that some people wear what they can afford and others just want to be comfortable in any situation, but I was commenting more on the decline in the way people choose to dress for special events than anything else.

Again, I apologize for any offense taken. Peace

[jus_the_facts]

215. Apology accepted....and please accept one from me as well.....

...I AM ANGRY...I'm completely disgusted and emotional about much more serious issues right now than peoples attire and I'm defensive as hell...sorry to have clicked on this thread in the frame o'mind I'm in at the moment...so please excuse my blatant anger...it's been a personal peeve o'mine about clothes and peoples perceptions of what constitutes *proper* or *acceptable* as well...just gets on my very last nerve.

....I swear a horse tranquilizer wouldn't calm me down right now...the real :freak: doesn't really get cranked up untill tomorrow and I'm at my wits end already! :grr:

[qanda]

220. Apology accepted

And I do understand what you're saying. Hope we'll meet on a different thread someday.

[LibDemAlways]

205. I live 15 minutes from the Ray-gun

library, and can tell you that people around here wear shorts and t-shirts just about everywhere - including church. To them it's not being disrespectful, it's what they own and wear everyday. I don't believe most would think of attending the funeral of a friend or family member dressed so casually, but filing by Ronnie's remains at the library isn't the same as sitting in the service at the cathedral.

[JanMichael]

213. Shit, after Reagan, that's probably all that they could afford

Cut them a break

[TahitiNut]

217. (Hmmm... ) My "Hawaiian" shirt cost me $85 ...

... a pair of Birkenstocks about $100, a pair of cargo shorts about $60 ... casual clothes that fit and are comfortable aren't cheap. I could go to Penny's and buy a cheap crappy suit ... for what? $75?

When my neoconservative ex-classmates insisted on a dress code for my 35th high school reuinion and specifically proscribed Hawaiian print shirts (and the equivalent), I took umbrage and told 'em to go pound sand. As far as I'm concerned, when I want to see old friends and classmates to revisit good times I don't give 'em shit about meeting my "fashion test". And I don't take it, either.

I wore suits, ties, and wingtips every weekday (and many weekends) for nearly 20 years in corporate insane asylums ... and I don't intend to do it ever again.

[Misinformed01]

218. Magnum, is that you???

Seriously, dude, where are you buying your birks?

Later, I will make sure to send you to the birk outlet website; besides they last forever--got mine in 1997, wore them today-

Stephanie

[Lindsey]

230. I would say definitely a California thing

and yes, we do love it like that - one of the reasons I moved out here - perfect weather most of the time! :-)