Us and Them

[indigobusiness]

Pink Floyd said it far better than I can, but this 'Us-and-Themism' has got to stop. It is one thing to debate ideas, and do battle intellectually, but we are all in this together and villifying the "other" hurts us all.

It alarms me how life is so often reduced to sports metaphors, and rah-rah rhetoric. Reminds me of being a young child when first I heard "...my dad can beat-up your dad", and how absurd that seemed, even then.

The tribalism at the heart of 'Us-and-Themism' is so Lord of the Flies...it could be the monster that consumes us all.


edited for sp

[indigobusiness]

1. Oh...I forgot one thing...

Go Bears!

[indigobusiness]

13. and

Padres!

[indigobusiness]

34. Drudge radio should be a hoot tonight

http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[kentuck]

2. Or is it that they have made it impossible for it be "us" anymore...

I agree that wea re all in this boat together. However, our political opponents, in my opinion, decided years ago that we must be defeated. We were not just a political enemy - we were an enemy to their way of life. They meant to destroy "us". Although your idea is very idealistic and good, i do not know that it is possible...

[indigobusiness]

3. There is a line that is crossed where you become your adversary.

Look at the American battle against fascism, and how fascistic we became in the process.

[kentuck]

4. But if you back away from that line...

you will be trampled , when fighting the fascists.

[indigobusiness]

8. I wouldn' suggest you back away from the fight...

only that there are lines you don't cross without becoming your enemy.

[kentuck]

14. But , what if....?

they have pushed that line way back into our territory? They have crossed the line many times and we have retreated. What do we do to regain the territory that we have lost?

[indigobusiness]

15. The line doesn't move...

a principled stance will win in the long run.

That is an example of losing the battle but winning the war.



----
typo

[indigobusiness]

16. notice the sports metaphors???

it has saturated our thinking.

[Just Me]

20. Even the Dalai Lhama deceived his "enemy",...

,...in order to survive. Ghandi took a stand. King took a stand.

One can be principled and still draw the line against those who obey no rules of decency or principles of integrity.

[indigobusiness]

28. But he didn't get in the gutter and play their game...

...Character and principle are compromised when they become ones of convenience.

Even the Buddha killed a man, because it was the lesser evil.

[indigobusiness]

5. Plus, when one side takes the high road, it will snowball in strength & #,

when both sides are in the gutter, it is just a cat-fight.

Regarding Idealism...when Idealism is lost, you might as well drink the Kool-Aid.

[Walt Starr]

7. BULLSHIT!!

The High Road put Bush in office and lost us the Senate. If we take the high road now, they'll start lining us up to put in the camps.

Fuck that, I'll fight dirty. The High Road is really the low road because all the high road gets us is DEAD!

[indigobusiness]

10. You are the problem...

personified.

[Walt Starr]

6. Playing nice with bullies

put Bush into the White House and lost the Senate in 2002.

Fuck 'em. Fight dirty. Spit in their eyes then kick them in the balls. If you don't, you may as well roll over now and let them run roughshod over you because that's what they will do.

Playing nice to bullies is a sign of weakness to them.

[zanana]

9. I agree, Walt Starr

We played the "high road" too long. Playing the high road got Bush into office. We were even NICE about the stolen election!

[indigobusiness]

12. The "high-road" is merely a principled stance.

Walking the talk.

[indigobusiness]

11. I never suggested not being strong and fighting well.

You appear entirely unacquainted with "the high-road".

[Vickers]

17. Yes, it's VERY "Lord of the Flies" and they see us as Piggy

Better sharpen your spears, amigo. I have.

[indigobusiness]

18. The point of that was everyone eventually winds up as Piggy.

You make my point for me.

[Vickers]

19. Yes, but it had a happy ending...remember?

You make my point for me, too!!!!!

:grouphug:

[indigobusiness]

21. I wasn't talking about the novel, but its message.

I stand by what I said, and I would suggest always keeping all knives sharp.

Perhaps I haven't made my point well enough.

[Vickers]

22. No, you did fine. I simply think we look at the "challenges" differently

You have more of a Ghandi/MLK approach, and I don't.

Our side needs both viewpoints, but I feel my arms are big enough to embrace both.

Sincerely,

Vickers

[BeFree]

23. I got your point

You think you are better than us. Loud and clear.

We are just down in the trenches while you ride the high horse extolling us that it doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how ya play the game.
Bullshit.

This ain't no game. It's a matter of life or death. Have I made my point clear enough?

[indigobusiness]

24. Not at all...

I have fought in the trenches all my life.

I just try to stay out of the gutter.


on edit--And it is NOT "...about the future" (your profile quote), it is about the eternal now.

[BeFree]

27. Excuse me?

I'm not clear on the difference between trenches and gutters.

And, what's this: "eternal now"

[indigobusiness]

29. If you don't know the difference between fighting in the trenches...

and crawling into the gutter, I can't help you.

The eternal now is being.

The future, an abstraction.

on edit---you can fight the good fight from the trenches, but not in the gutter...hope this helps.

[BeFree]

30. So, everyone scratching for existence

against our enemy is now crawling in the gutter.

We are being honest with our eternal frustrations and you offer us nothing but an abstract theory of fighting the good fight.

Gotcha.

[indigobusiness]

31. Not at all...you should think things through...

The manner of conduct is the representation of character. It is one thing to talk about being an honorable society...it is altogether different BEING one.

Fighting the good fight is not an abstraction..it is a reference to the manner of conduct.

That should be obvious.

on edit- 'code' of conduct might be better.

[BeFree]

32. Gotcha

We now need 'Conduct Police' and you are only too happy to volunteer to police us.

Just what we friggin need.

Thanks, but NO thanks. We do just fine without 'Conduct Police'.

[indigobusiness]

33. I don't play gotcha games.

I never suggested policing anything. But a a healthy society is honestly and dispassionately self-critical. That's what dissent is all about. I was talking about standards.

You perplex me with your reactionary responses. And illustrate why I fear we are become as manipulative and Machiavellian as the "other".

You be a moral relativist if you want. No thanks, I'm having none.

[Speck Tater]

25. United we Stand

so why do we all focus on dividing ourselves from each other?

More evidence that the human species is doomed to extinction.

[indigobusiness]

26. Precisely...

...thanks you.



The Antipope, December 1941–March 1942. Oil on canvas, 160.8 x 127.1 cm. Peggy Guggenheim Collection. 76.2553 PG 80. Max Ernst © 2003 Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York/ADAGP, Paris.