So Military DUers

[HEyHEY]

In a situation like the recent prisoner beatings, where the soldiers said they were order to do what they did.

If your CO demands you do something that you know damn well is wrong and against the Geneva convention, and you refuse. What kind of penalty can you face?

[tabasco]

1. That's what you're supposed to do.

So no penalty. The CO would get burned. Soldiers always have the next commander, JAG, chaplains, and the IG to report incidents to if his unit commander is corrupt.

[Curious Dave]

5. All true

Except that part about the JAG. Never forget the JAG is your commander's lawyer! A good JAG would turn away a person bringing them a question about the legality of a specific order given by a specific commander. A not so good JAG would probably pump the troop for information to try to help the commander's case if it came to that. IG's or ADC's (Area Defense Council) are the best way to go in these situations.

On the other hand, the JAG's Office is great for that general information kind of stuff that your would expect to hear in a LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict) briefing.

As an aside, I really wonder if Grainor, England and their friends from the West Virgina Guard even received a LOAC briefing. LOAC briefings I attended were always very specific about the rights of prisoners. My experience is that sometimes Guard units are not always on top of it when it comes to getting this kind of training done. No offense intended to the Guard, I know of some Guard units that were very professional :)

[tabasco]

8. JAG is not just the commander's lawyer.

JAG provides lawyers for all soldiers with potential legal problems. If a troop was being charged with disobeying a lawful order, JAG would provide a lawyer to defend him. If presented with a potential war crime witness, a JAG lawyer would probably get CID on the case and assign a defender for the soldier. JAG provides the prosecutor too.

[Curious Dave]

29. Good Point

For example if you want to have a will or a power of attorney done the JAG will do that for you. Also, if you need legal advice concerning matters off-base the JAG will advise you, but will not represent you in a civilian court. Say you thought a car dealer had ripped you off and you thought you might have legal recourse... But seeking the JAG's assistance for off-base matters can also be a little tricky; if a civilian court was looking to prosecute you for something that the military could also exercise jurisdiction over, you would not want to go to the JAG! If a troop is being charged by the military with having committed a crime the JAG will not provide his lawyer! The troop may either be represented by civilian counsel (retained at his own expense), or by a representative of the Area Defense Council's Office.

The reason the JAG does not provide lawyers to accused service members is because their role is prosecutorial. Imaging the potential for conflicts of interest if prosecuting attorneys and defense attorneys worked for the same boss! The Area Defense Council has its own chain of command outside that of the base/post/organizational commander. The JAG on the other hand reports to the base/post/organizational commander.

I'm really not trying to be anal about this, its just that over the years I dealt with these very issues more times than I can honestly remember, in matters concerning both my subordinates and myself.

[prodigal_green]

30. I thought one of the problems

at "Abu Garum" (sic-Chimp) was that there we no JAG anywhere to be found. Am I mistaken?

[Sir Craig]

2. None, as long as your ass is covered

If my commander were to tell me to go beat a prisoner, or subject them to humiliating conditions/situations, etc., I could safely tell him to go stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Respectfully, of course.

Then I would go and make a Memorandum for Record (MFR) reporting the incident, complete with names, dates, times, and what the orders were, keep a copy for myself and give a copy to the commander's commander, a copy to my first sergeant, and a copy to the Inspector General.

I've had to do it before, and believe me, if you cover your ass like that you will not have any problems. Of course, my situation was nothing like Abu Ghraib...

[Vickers]

3. I was given an unlawful order once, told the guy it was against the UCMJ

He bitched me out, so I advised him that I was going over his head to report it (more bitching etc.)

I went to the squadron section commander and told him about the incident, and the guy got in trouble.

But guess what? I was passed over for promotion that cycle.

:shrug:

Co-inky-dink?

:P

[Curious Dave]

4. In Fact

A service member is under legal obligation to not obey unlawful orders under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). However, their is a bit of a Catch-22. Legally the service member disobeys the unlawful order "at his own peril" (to quote the UCMJ). The Manual for Courts Martial (the MCM basically details how the UCMJ will be implemented and addresses legal precedents) goes on to say that "at his own peril" means the service member will be prosecuted if the Courts Martial does not agree with his contention that the order was unlawful.

Bottom line: Don't challenge the legality of an order unless you are damned sure it is truly unlawful. The good news is the Area Defense Council's Office (sort of the military equivalent of a public defender)is available to assist in helping to determine the legal of orders before it comes down to a confrontation.

On the hand other, there are those "the time is now" moments were a person just has to use their best judgment and act accordingly.

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about the military legal system. :)

[TahitiNut]

6. "know damn well is wrong"?????

Sheesh, people that say stuff like this within a mile of the nearest McDonald's, Pizza Hut, gas station, polling place, and fire station just slay me. I sometimes don't think it's possible to convey to anyone what it's like to be in the military and in a combat zone.

Clue #1: If the people in your chain-of-command tell you it's OK, then it's OK.

Just WHO the fuck does anyone think an E-4 with a high school diploma is going to ask? How many of them have even read the Geneva Conventions, let alone the plethora of opinions and judgments regarding them? Hell, if more than 4 or 5 DUers have, I'll eat them.

Clue #2: Killing is wrong.

After overcoming that one, just how much is left? "Honor thy mother"? When the word "motherfucker" is used more often than "excuse me"??? The very word "wrong" takes on a whole new meaning.

Clue #3: Serpico

You either get with the program or you die. Consider the fact that a huge part of the NYPD was involved in taking graft, protecting organized crime, and doing a little "wet work" -- in a civilian setting -- just how the fuck does anyone expect lowly grunts in a combat zone to know they're gonna take a fall for the corruption of the command structure??


I don't know. Nobody is more appalled by war crimes than I. My Lai was detestable. But it was common!! This stuff just doesn't fucking happen without the connivance of the command staff. There ain't no way.

Does that mean these E4's and junior officers should be let off? Hell no. But the penalties they get should only be half that of a couple of dozen general officers and Pentagon senior leadership who put dainty gloves on their lily whites and pushed these behaviors.

[Curious Dave]

7. No Arguement Here

I didn't write the UCMJ or the MCM and don't agree with everything that is in them. I was only trying to explain how they address this issue.

And you're right, there is a frightenling lack of information both outside and inside of the military regarding the military's legal system. I always tried to do my part to change that, but I was just one guy.

[HEyHEY]

10. I think the situation I asked about was clear

You're in a prison and your CO orders you to beat and torture people. I don't think you need to be a scholar of the geneva convention to know that's wrong.

[TahitiNut]

18. Nothing is ever so cartoonish.

Over the many months people are in the military and over the months they're living together, working together, getting drunk together, and whatever together, virtually all of one's entire life becomes dependent upon discipline, 'teamwork,' getting along, taking orders, and dealing with outright insanity. The command is "get results!" The comment is "I don't care how you do it!" There are absolutely no reminders about "being nice" or "being humane." None. Ask for something in writing? In your dreams. Go ask JAG? Nonsense. Ask the chaplain? Unlikely. And there just ain't that much free time and access, particularly in a combat zone and particularly if you're getting some tougher assignments.

The "pecking order" is all about pleasing superiors and getting 'em off your ass. The very last thing anyone wants to do is rock the boat or snitch -- that's the kind of stuff that gets you killed. Grenades tossed into a latrine, something blocking a door at the wrong time, risky assignments (like "forward observer") ... there are more ways to kill/maim a "troublemaker" than you can begin to imagine.

Those are the downsides.
What're the upsides of being a whistle-blower?
None. Nice words for a short time then no job. No promotion. Nothing "official," mind you, but the "old boys" network is extensive and effective. Nobody likes a snitch (whistle-blower).

Now, figure out how to fix that in corporations, government, and the military and you've got something. How do you compensate a person for the prospect of a lifetime of unemployment or equivalent?

It's really easy to go along with the program. Our powers of rationalization and adaptation are far, far greater than the vast majority even imagine. Those who don't think so are usually among the first to adapt ... or get killed.

[HEyHEY]

20. Really?

And is there no action to be taken further? Is there any kind of supreme board you can appeal to?

[TahitiNut]

23. The LAST thing anyone in the military wants ...

... is to have "barracks lawyers." They will claim that's the job of the chain-of-command and proper military discipline and leadership. After all, try proving it's needed! Catch-22.

[Curious Dave]

28. It gets pretty involved

Like the civilian system, some appeals (depending on the offense and/or sentence) are automatic. Generally appeals start with the convening authority for the Courts Martial, usually the first General officer in the accused's chain of command. From there the military's appeals process runs all the way to a body known as the US Court for Military Appeals. From there service members do have the option to petition the US Supreme Court for a hearing, but lets face it, no one, military or civilian has got real high odds of getting their case to the US Supreme Court.

[Nlighten1]

14. Exactly.

It would be the rare Spec4 who would stand up to his CO. Because the reprecussions would be terrible. Add to that the fact that the military culture is barbaric to begin with and you can get a feel how it would be difficult for them to make that moral judgement.

It only takes a few who go along with it to get the rest to join in.

[TahitiNut]

19. Yup. Just start small and keep pushing.

After a few months entire units will be happily abusing prisoners. No need to even give an order so palin ... just keep pushing for "results" and use euphemisms.

Hey, if it's OK at Gitmo then it must be OK everywhere, right? After all didn't our Commander-in-Chief call them all "evil-doers"? Aren't they all "terrorists"? Remember the WTC! After all, that stuff that requires "permission" must be OK 'cause if it were against the Geneva Conventions then they couldn't even give permission, right? How could they ever give permission if it were against the Geneva Conventions?

Full steam ahead.

[Nlighten1]

21. See these pictures?

Harrasment or abuse?

Letting off steam or torture?

These sort of beatings were not un-common in my old unit. They called them "The Newbie Rodeo" because of the way they tied them up.

[TahitiNut]

24. Don't I know it.

I spent two years at the US Coast Guard Academy. The first year was hell. "Hazing" like the photos show was common - and lots far worse. I left primarily because I just couldn't learn to dish it out very well the second year. A few years later I was drafted. Basic was almost nothing compared to the first year at the USCGA ... except that the mob mentality was about half the IQ, and more brutish.

[Nlighten1]

26. These are Infantry soldiers.

And I took great care not to show the more brutal pictures. Most of these guys are clueless noobs fresh from high school. The brutal attacks they did on some of the guys there really scared me. They taped one guy to a door and was throwing knives at him.

[DEMVET-USMC]

9. Theoretically you should`nt face any penalty,but These guys have all

kinds of ways of getting even with you if you disobey thier orders. I could tell you few good stories but frankly I have learned the hard way these guys know how to make you suffer. I was made permanent point for a long time for not following orders I knew were stupid and I`ll leave it at that. Oscar

[sampsonblk]

11. I strongly disagree

The rules are as you say, but if you refuse an order, chances are you will be bullied into silence before you get a chance to go up the chain of command. Blowing the whistle in the military is just as risky as it is in the real world. Most of the time, it just doesn't pay.

[DEMVET-USMC]

15. You Sound Like Some Who Has Been There in some way or another

These bastards in positions of authority no how to make you pay if you cross them. It doesn`t get much worse than when you are in the military. You have very few rights in reality if any. ...Oscar

[sampsonblk]

31. I haven't really been there myself

But I have seen and heard this scenario many times. It doesn't often work out in the whistleblower's favor - at least that's my experience.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. The posters who have indicated you must not follow unlawful orders are

correct, but unfortunately Bushco is f*cking around with the military so much and basically casting aside the rule of law entirely, both with respect to treatment of prisoners (starting with Afghanistan/GTMO), and with all the rest of their conduct (energy policy, etc.).

The danger is that much of the military, particularly with respect to those holding prisoners, have essentially received an official message from people like Rummy and Major General Miller that because we say so, the Geneva conventions don't apply. All the sophistry about they apply in Iraq but not in GTMO is BULLSHIT. Once you start on this slippery slope of torture is OK in some instances, you have already jumped off the cliff. These messages essentially greenlighted the torture and abuse of Iraqis, and I have little doubt that MG Miller will be shown to have specifically instructed that these type of acts be done.

It is beyond unbelievable that instead of sticking MG Miller in a corner somewhere they have actually put him in command of Abu Ghraib. It shows that until their ship goes completely down, their only play is arrogant defiance.

But what I was getting at is that in a military stripped of any legal and moral foundation, it is very possible that these soldiers could have been subject to reprisals and punishment for what might have been interpreted by the Bush administration and their generals as "lawful" orders.

Their MORAL duty still would have been to disobey. It still doesn't justify any of the conduct.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

13. What do you do without a legit COMMANDER IN CHIEF?

Since Bush* is not the legitimate president due to massive vote fraud and disenfrachisement of thousands of African Americans in Florida, how do you function with no legitimate chain of command from the White House?

Doesn't that make every order an illegal order?

[vetwife]

16. My Namvet said

You did what you were told or could end up fragged or mysteriously
shot. He said in combat, not only did you have to watch out for the enemy but for the ones contolling the commands. After he got to Germany he said that he had so many article 15's..He just didn't care anymore. He still got out honorably but he don't take orders from nobody anymore.

As far as I see it on Commanderin Thief...Hey when those votes were tallied in Congress..the electoral votes Gore asking of folks had a senator's signature...and the chicken senators didn't sign that made him legit in the world's eyes but certainly not in ours. My husband and I both loathe the clown. He will never be our president but that day, they day, the day I refer to as the coup de etat, he was put in power. Soldiers do not really have a choice...They keep their mouthes shut and follow orders. the intimidation from what Iunderstand and I talk to a lot of vets, having a vet organization, is unbelievable. But all the vets here have already confirmed this.
By the way.

I get mad when people say Happy Memorial Day. It is inappropriate ...So I will say to the vets. Welcome Home and Remembering you on this Memorial Day. to me, its like saying Happy Smypathy. It is to honor those that have fallen and did not come home. Veterans Day is honoring those veterans who we are fortunate to still have with us. I know this day is dificult for you all.
God Bless....

[TahitiNut]

22. Namvet is absolutely right.

An Article 15 also prevents the award of a Good Conduct Medal. Notice ... I didn't get a Good Conduct Medal. :shrug:

[DEMVET-USMC]

33. I didn`t get one either and it`s absence was a badge of honor

to me. It meant I was not afraid of giving my superiors crap when I felt they deserved it. One of my proudest moments is when I reported in to the 1st Sgt. of the company I had been asssigned to in Viet Nam . This was the start of my second tour and I was way past giving a shit. He said to me: Do you know what you are ? , a FUNUG. Do you know what that is. I knew but said no. With a big grin on his face he said: you are a fucking new guy. I did not flinch and told him : do you know what you are ? A fucking asshole ! He leaped out of his chair like he was going to do something but thought better of it and started screaming for some sargent to assign me to shitter detail when ever possible. I did shitter detail that day one time only. We were never back at base more than a day or two at a time. He made sure I never got promoted or any medal I was put in for but it was worth it to see him go ballistic. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

32. Thank You For Your Kind Words

What a happy day it was for me when I got my discharge. Me and and a pal roped our duffle bags to the back of his car and laid a patch once we were out the gate. I loved it ! ...Oscar

[Toots]

17. Usually it is a form of peer pressure only much more heavy duty

It has been my experience most GIs are gung ho for any of that type of stuff. When you buck the system you make them all look bad so they get back at you in many ways.

[TahitiNut]

25. "Pecking order" is the most apt term.

Read up on the behvavior of chickens in a barnyard ... particularly when one chicken (the "marked" one) gets a spot of blood on its head. It's the kind of behavior the "leadership" creates in virtually any platoon.

[nomatrix]

27. For all those who served in the military

"Thank you for your service"

[No Passaran]

34. I just hope...

..your thank-yous were heartfelt. Use of quotation marks probably says they were not.