BBV: Recounts will be a thing of the past.

[Pale_Rider]

Electronic voting raises recount angst

CRITICS SAY ERRORS COULD GO UNDETECTED

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/8655721.htm
The federal government is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to modernize the nation's voting booths in the hope of avoiding a repeat of the divisive Florida recount of 2000. But critics warn it could produce something worse in November: no meaningful recount at all.

The reason is that many states, including a dozen where the presidential race is expected to be closest, will be using new electronic voting machines that record votes digitally. There will be no physical ballots to recount.

``As bad as Florida was, ultimately they could have kept recounting. They had the votes there,'' said Ed Davis, vice president of Common Cause, an advocacy group. ``With electronic voting machines, there is nothing to recount. Over and over, you are going to get the same answer you got the first time.''

But local election officials contend that electronic machines are highly accurate and reliable. They argue that voting systems always have been susceptible to error and tampering.

[liarliartieonfire]

1. So when Bush Loses in November..

this means he can't take it to the Supreme Court for "selection" this time around????

OR: Will the neocon party again fix the election the way they are fixing Bush's current popularity polls?
From all I hear ouside the media polling clusterf*ck...Bush is in NO WAY neck & neck with Sen John Kerry. THE PEOPLE haven't spoken...yet.

I believe Bush is currently running much farther behind President John Kerry than the fixed polls suggest.

Bush's 'all-war-all-the-time' media circus is wearing on the public, and patience is waning for an administration who will offer a more solid and uplifting daily brief.

[Raster]

2. the ONLY way I would ever support BBV...

...is that if an INDEPENDENT body consisting of the best and brightest of the digital community, perhaps even the international digital community, was brought in to verify the results thereof. Meaning, among other things, that the software be placed in the public domain, that no person is able to access software--upgrades, patches, etc.--without a complex, detailed, and verifiable access record. And that no person, company, corporation, entity is allowed to make a profit or introduce a monetary aspect to the process or the hardware and software dedicated to the electronic voting process.

Further, laws should be enacted to provide the SEVEREST penalty for tampering with the electronic voting process, the equipment, the software and the results.

I refuse to have BBV shoved down my throat simply because "we've already spent millions." Tough Shit! A very simple solution is to devise a double-entry, easily verifiable paper trail for the upcoming election. Congress should pass emergency legislation that allows voting over three days, entailing at least one weekend. We should invite neutral, independent verification teams from around the world to monitor and report EVERYTHING!!!

I believe that in addition to the coup d'etat in 2000, several races in 2002 were illegaly tampered with. Think Georgia and Nebraska. And further, I don't know why every thinking person hasn't raised their voice LOUD--if one side can do it so can another. In other words, just because you liked the results of an illegal election this time, it doesn't mean you'll like the results the next time. What you do to another can also be done to you. Get it?

[Andy_Stephenson]

3. I like your attitued when you say...

"I refuse to have BBV shoved down my throat simply because "we've already spent millions." Tough Shit!"

[ParanoidPat]

5. If someone brings up the cost and how much we've already spent....

.....Look them square in the eye and say "V-22 Osprey!" Then explain the following fact. :evilgrin:

Q: Is the V-22 Osprey aircraft a must-buy for the United States?
No: This weapons technology is flawed and too costly and should be terminated.

By Christopher Hellman

The Marine Corps considers it the centerpiece of its modernization program. The Pentagon's 1997 "Bottom-Up Review" calls it critical to improving the mobility of U.S. forces. Yet after more than a decade of delays, cost overruns and two fatal crashes in the last nine months, the V-22 Osprey faces an uncertain future.

Known as a tilt-rotor, the V-22 is a hybrid that takes off like a helicopter but flies like a traditional fixed-wing aircraft. It is designed to combine the maneuverability and lift capability of a helicopter with the increased speed of a conventional transport aircraft. The Marine Corps plans to use the V-22 to replace its aging fleet of medium-lift helicopters. In addition, the Air Force and the Navy each plan to purchase a small number of Ospreys to perform special-operations and search-and-rescue missions. In all, the Pentagon plans to buy 458 Ospreys at a total cost of more than $38 billion, or $83 million per aircraft.

Full-scale development of the V-22 began in 1986 under President Reagan, and the first prototype flew in 1989. However, during the Bush administration the V-22 was a source of continual friction between then-defense secretary Richard Cheney and Congress. Cheney felt that the program's cost was unjustifiable, given its incremental improvements in capabilities and survivability. In fact, the Army, which originally had planned to purchase 231 V-22s, opted out of the program in 1987. In 1989 the Bush administration canceled the project.

<More>

Then simply point out that the amount dedicated to HAVA (The Help Another Vendor Act!) is but a drop in the bucket compared to the money wasted by the very people that the voting systems will be used to choose! We wasted more than 10 times as much money on this one failed system alone! We will use these systems to choose the people who will be in charge of the most devastating arsenal ever assembled. We CAN'T afford to make any mistakes! :)

[Raster]

6. let's go over this ONE MORE TIME...

...there's a small (relatively speaking) but INFLUENTIAL group of companies (carlyle, halliburton), businessmen (cheney, bush1), that don't want peace on earth. Why? BECAUSE THEY AND THEIR FRIENDS DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF PEACE! And what a coinkydink, most of the same people and companies also have direct ties to the petroleum industry. They're the same ones that don't make any money off of energy efficiency, alternate energy and reducing or eliminating America's dependence on foreign oil. Hmmm, politics, warfare and petroleum. Go figure...

And no one, NO ONE, plays war and petro-politics better than the BFEE. The entire bush "dynasty" is based on war profiterring and petro-politics. Oh yeah, and don't forget the spook factor.

[Buns_of_Fire]

4. When I worked with election processing,

I believe it was a state law that any candidate could demand a recount (if the percentages separating the two candidates was under a certain percentage, there would be an "automatic recount"). Obviously, the winning candidate never did -- but I always knew that, the day after the election, I should be prepared to run certain precincts through all over again. And many times, there were small differences here and there (never enough to effect the final outcome, thankfully).

But if you have no "source document" (as we used to say in the DP biz), why even pretend to do a recount?

[liarliartieonfire]

8. So this whole bbv and no-papertrail is illegal in the first place..

(....state law that any candidate could demand a recount... )

Why are we wasting time and money then? It is illegal NOT to have the ability to recount.

Being quite aware by now that the Neocons consider themselves above any law, we still must demand a challenge in Court considering its very legality.

Seems the precedent has been set and there should be no question.

This must be DEMANDED of.....NOT politeley questioned.

This should be the FIRST step in notifying the neocons that we are of a democracy and they WILL follow our laws.
They have run roughshod over so much of our Constitution already. About time it stops.

[Andy_Stephenson]

9. Washington State law states...

RCW 29.64.030
Recounting the votes -- Observers -- Request to stop. (Effective until July 1, 2004.)(1) At the time and place established for a recount, the canvassing board or its duly authorized representatives, in the presence of all witnesses who may be in attendance, shall open the sealed containers containing the ballots to be recounted, and shall recount the votes for the offices or issues for which the recount has been ordered. Ballots shall be handled only by the members of the canvassing board or their duly authorized representatives.

[loudsue]

7. I think it's time for another mass letter/fax writing campaign to our

congresscritters.

If we don't keep this issue in front of them on a daily basis, they move on to something else. Yet this is -- far and away -- the MOST important aspect of a Democracy....that our votes are COUNTED and not even slightly compromised.

The excuse that "elections have always been tampered with" is not a "reason". If it's true, then it's time RIGHT THIS MINUTE for that to change. Not one more election in this country should ever again be tampered with for any reason, in any way.

The penalties should be extremely severe, because we are witnessing what the lack of <any enforced> penalties has done to our country.

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Andy_Stephenson]

10. After Talking with John Ensign"s, R-Nev.

Aide...who has worked on his pending legislation...I cannot support it based on what he told me. It calls for a reciept or record and not a Ballot. If is does not say ballot...it does not mean ballot. Additionally there is no auditing provisions. SO it prints a piece of paper...but it that paper is not the ballot then why even print the damned thing. The paper must be the ballot and final judge.

Andy

[loudsue]

11. Right you are, Andy....

"Ballots" are the things that are protected by the constitutions ... both on the federal and state levels. It's time we had some "ballots" to count instead of these friggin' riggin' elections!

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

[ParanoidPat]

12. Andy! Be careful what you wish for!

A voter verified paper record of each vote cast may in some ways be preferable to a "ballot" in that it would contain only the names of the candidates chosen by the voter to indicate their intent instead of the names of all of the candidates and a mark to indicate their selection.

As long as the law calls for the voter verified paper records be created for each vote cast, and that those records be the official document to be used for audit and recount purposes, it is actually preferable as it eliminates the possibility of over votes, IE; a mark next to more than one candidate's name or registration problems where the mark falls between two candidates names.

If in a 'theoretical' race between Bush* and Kerry the record only says Bush*, anyone counting the records can see that the voters intent was clearly for Bush*. (And that the voter is clearly ignorant or insane! :) ) If you allow all of the candidates names and a mark to indicate the voters selection, it allows for the possibility that an extra mark may be applied after the fact and thusly,'spoil the ballot'! The printer, or software drivers for it, can also be rigged or corrupted to in effect, offset the mark just enough to call the voters intent into question.

If you look at the wording of H.R. 2239 and S.1980 they both contain the terms 'record'

(2) VOTER-VERIFICATION AND AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(A) VOTER-VERIFICATION IN GENERAL- The voting system shall produce a voter-verified paper record suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot box system, as further specified in subparagraph (B).

`(B) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(i) The voting system shall produce a permanent paper record, each individual paper record of which shall be made available for inspection and verification by the voter at the time the vote is cast, and preserved within the polling place in the manner in which all other paper ballots are preserved within the polling place on Election Day for later use in any manual audit.

`(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter with an opportunity to correct any error made by the system before the permanent record is preserved for use in any manual audit.

`(iii) The voter verified paper record produced under subparagraph (A) and this subparagraph shall be available as an official record and shall be the official record used for any recount conducted with respect to any election in which the system is used.


SEC. 7. REQUIREMENT FOR MANDATORY RECOUNTS.

The Election Assistance Commission shall conduct manual mandatory surprise recounts of the voter-verified records of each election for Federal office (and, at the option of the State or jurisdiction involved, of elections for State and local office) in .5 percent of the jurisdictions in each State and .5 percent of the overseas jurisdictions in which voter-verified records are preserved in accordance with this section immediately following each general election for Federal office, and shall promptly publish the results of those recounts. The treatment of the results of the recount shall be governed by applicable Federal, State, or local law, except that any individual who is a citizen of the jurisdiction involved may file an appeal with the Commission if the individual believes that such law does not provide a fair remedy.

To me this seems preferable to a 'ballot' per se or am I missing something? :shrug:

[Eric J in MN]

13. I agree with Pat. As long as the paper is the official record,

I agree with Pat. As long as the law says the paper is the official record, it doesn't matter if the law uses the word "ballot."

[Eric J in MN]

14. How to Contact Congress about this even if you don't know your Congressman

How to Contact Congress about this even if you don't know your Congressperson's name:

http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_voter_conf_act_cosponsor_house_of_rep.html

[bobbieinok]

15. didn't FL pass/try to pass law making paper ballots illegal? recount illeg

al too?