Good ol' girl who enjoyed cruelty

[saigon68]

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907

Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker's daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call "a backwoods world". She faces a court martial, but at home she is toasted as a hero.At the dingy Corner Club Saloon they think she has done nothing wrong."A lot of people here think they ought to just blow up the whole of Iraq," Colleen Kesner said.

A colleague of Lynndie's father said people in Fort Ashby were sick of the whingeing. "We just had an 18-year-old from round here killed by the Iraqis," he said. "We went there to help the jackasses and they started blowing us up. Lynndie didn't kill 'em, she didn't cut 'em up. She should have shot some of the suckers.


Down a dirt track at the edge of town, in the trailer where England grew up, her mother Terrie dismissed the allegations against her daughter as unfair.


"They were just doing stupid kid things, pranks. And what the Iraqis do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, do they apply to everybody or just us?" she asked. She said she didn't know where her daughter was being held, but had spoken to her on the phone. "She told me nothing happened which wasn't ordered by higher up," she said. "They are trying to pin all of this on the lower ranks. My daughter was just following orders. I think there's a conspiracy. "

[maddezmom]

1. "Now, she ll be forced to quit."

Lynndie has larger problems than looking for a new career, she may be spending her days confined to a jail cell.

[JoFerret]

38. Possibly

...but will Bush and his cronies pay a price for this in terms of being held responsible?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sazdem]

3. Nice comment

"White trash cracker"? She will pay for her stupidity.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. It is not a phrase...

That I would personally like to use. Having said that, there are some descriptive phrases that are so accurate, so crystaline in their clarity, that distill someone down to their molecular essence that you just cannot ignore them.

Like this one, in reference to Pfc. England. You just have to give a nod to the accuracy, as much as you might not want to do so.

I live in the country. Except for a few short periods of residency in major cities around the world, I have lived in the country all my life. It is no secret to anyone around here that there is a representative number of people that should never, never, never be allowed to venture too far from their caves, and certainly not be allowed near guns and people of different racial, ethnic and religious traditions. Civil society would be worse for the interaction.

Like Pfc. England.

[seemslikeadream]

4. Just say no

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Or:

[seemslikeadream]

68. I have to carry this with me at all times now

Thanks RUMMYisFROSTED

[NNN0LHI]

5. Wonder why the military won't let her speak for her self?

Do we live in a dictatorship or something? Let her speak to the press. Free country and all.

Don

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. Because if she does so...

It is a real possibility that no good, for the country or the army, would come of it. For them.

Look at the pictures. Do you think it is possible that she might have impulse control issues?

[NNN0LHI]

8. So, are they going to keep her shut up forever? No book? No movie?

Can they do that? I don't really know.

Don

[colorado_ufo]

16. Spot on!

While in no way excusing her from her deplorable actions, the more I read about Ms. England, the more it seems that she was a perfect patsy to be used by those around her. Some of the tidbits from her family and friends -

in her teens, walked out in the path of an oncoming tornado to take pictures

a tomboy always out to prove something

joined the reserves at 17 against parents' wishes

married on the spur of the moment, without any preparation or notifying friends and family

divorced in less than two years

hooked up with a divorced spouse abuser while in active fighting in a war overseas

now four months pregnant with the above imbecile's child, without marriage

Impulse control issues? Ya think? I'd bet a dollar to a Krispy Kreme that the jerks she was associating with took full advantage of this, and her attractiveness, and played her like a violin, suckering her into posing in picture after picture, just like some stupid young women get suckered into garden-variety pornography. Notice that THEIR faces aren't splattered across the globe in infamy!

And we can't let the administration sucker US into fixating on this one young woman, letting the breadth and depth of this problem go undiscovered!

[Tellurian]

No, I think she actually enjoyed herself.

Different strokes for different folks.

Any in your tribe faithful viewers of WWF Wrestling?

[colorado_ufo]

23. WWF????

Sorry - no.

Actually, I never said that she didn't enjoy herself. What I was noting is that the same people who study and apply such "methods of interrogation" are very savvy manipulators and have no conscience. They would not hesitate to use anyone to their advantage. And we should not let this one woman's actions become a distraction (another manipulative technique).

[saigon68]

30. WELL NOW THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE

To show the King has no clothes, and to spead the good news as fast and as far as possible.

[Tellurian]

35. And the reason...the people come first, cause they can do it. nt

That was Kennedy's strategy and it worked!

[Tellurian]

34. By any chance does your definition apply

To politicians?


hahahaha?

[loyalsister]

33. Eve was framed

I agree. There is little doubt in my mind that there was some level of vulnerability with this woman that made her the patsy here.
I've always thought that the producers and cameramen in the porn industry are a little creepier and smarmier than the people being filmed.
Who was getting their kicks taking these pictures and why doesn't anyone care?
The larger issue here is that the prison itself and the top down influences are most to blame for what has happened. Focusing on individual soldiers will cloud that and they hope it happens.

[loathesomeshrub]

62. WTF??? That is one of the least attractive individuals I have ever seen

[Bandit]

13. She is not in a Democracy ~ She is in the military

Yes they do dictate what one can do and say.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. Guess what? The rest of us aren't in a Democracy, either.

[Kukesa]

9. You're killin' me here, Saigon.

It keeps getting worse and worse.

Do you, personally, believe this torture could have occurred if we didn't have an all-volunteer Army?

[saigon68]

11. It's hard to say

A draft would provide "The unwilling" to do the mission

"The incompetent"--(the lifers) would give the orders.

"The impossible" would be the order to abuse the prisoners, at this point a 24 year old draftee would tell the old sarge to fuck off.

But these Defendants were reservists--- another species all together.

The MP's operate differently than other units, and the guy who was a prison guard, in civilian life undoubtedly was used to kicking the SHIT out of Blacks and other Minorities. And it wasn't a long stretch for him to commit a War Crime.


Yes and NO there's no clean way to answer your question :-)

[TahitiNut]

54. We had four times the number of troops in Viet Nam ...

... for a lot longer with far more open hostilities and a lot more dying and didn't have anything near the number of abuses (imho) as we're beginning to understand are occurring under the Busholini Republican Guard.

It's obvious to me that Universal National Service would create two culture shifts:
(1) far more people willing to blow the whistle on such atrocities because at least one of the fears of retaliation (career-limiting) would be nullified, and
(2) a far greater sense of personal impact of such wars among the people of the nation.

We had a major POW compound inside Long Binh (adjacent to LBJ) and I never heard any scuttlebutt about human rights abuses. I was even present for part of the interrogation of a couple of NVA 'soldiers' (about 15 years old) the next day after the Tet attack in Feruary 69. Clearly, it would have been very easy to just turn over the NVA or VC to the ARVN ... who sure didn't hold back. I'm positive we did so.

Nonetheless, the only atrocities I'm aware of Americans being involved in were under open battlefield conditions and not victimizing shackled and hooded prisoners with little or no ability to defend themselves. All of us were appalled by the famous photo of the Chief of Police shooting the VC in the head ... but also knew the VC had killed his family.

I don't think anyone can ever really fight a "clean" or "humane" war -- it's insane and brutal and "civil" rules just don't match the surreal conditions. But a "professional" military is not something a democratic nation should tolerate, imo.

[seemslikeadream]

78. and we're not finished with Vietnam yet !

Laos, Hmong Bill Passes U.S. Congress: Urges Stalinist Regime to Address C

Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:23 PM by seemslikeadream


Laos, Hmong Bill Passes U.S. Congress: Urges Stalinist Regime to Address Crisis and Reform

5/6/2004 4:10:00 PM


To: National and International Desks

Contact: Ms. Xoua Kue or Paul Christopher, 202-543-1444, 559-252-3921 or 202-318-0266 (fax)

WASHINGTON, May 6 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In an historic vote today, the U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed strongly worded legislation (H.Res. 402) introduced by Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) and a bipartisan coalition in the U.S. House of Representatives regarding the emergency crisis facing the Hmong people in Laos and the urgent need for freedom, democratic reform, and the international monitoring of elections, human rights and religious liberty in Laos.

"Today's historic vote in the U.S. Congress for the passage of H. Res. 402 is something that we at the Lao Veterans of America have worked very hard at for nearly two years in Washington, D.C.," stated Colonel Wangyee Vang, national director and founder of the Lao Veterans of America, Inc., the nation's largest Lao and Hmong veterans organization. "Today's vote in Congress for Congressman Burton's Laos bill marks an important victory for the freedom-loving Lao and Hmong people now suffering under the Communist regime in Laos as well as all of the veterans and the Laotian and Hmong-American organizations and individuals who joined together as a team to help us fight for the passage of this important legislation, to help bring freedom and democracy to Laos," Colonel Wangyee concluded.

Rep. Dan Burton was joined by Reps. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), Mark Green (D-Wisc.), Patrick Kennedy (D-R.I.), Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.), Ron Kind (D-Wis.), Steve Chabot (R-Ohio), Adam Smith (D-Wash.), Thomas Petri (R-Wis.) and others in introducing the Laos legislation on October 16, 2004. H.Res. 402 was introduced following a special session of the U.S. Congressional Forum on Laos, held in the Longworth House Office Building, where a number of prominent Members of Congress, Laotian and Hmong organizations, dissidents, victims and human rights organizations testified about the current crisis in Laos and the plight of the Hmong people, including the Lao Veterans of America, the Lao Students Movement for Democracy, Amnesty International and others. Hundreds of Lao and Hmong veterans, and their families, are slated to convene in the U.S. Congress early next week for a special U.S. Congressional reception and events to honor Rep. Burton's legislation and Members of Congress who have taken a leadership role in its passage. The Congressional events are cosponsored by the Lao Veterans of America, Inc., and the Center for Public Policy Analysis.

"Congressman Burton's bold new legislation addressing the current situation in Laos is a first step toward engaging the Pathet Lao regime, United Nations and the State Department more seriously, honestly and effectively regarding the horrific plight of the jailed Laotian students, political and religious dissidents and Hmong civilians and rebels now under brutal siege in closed military zones," stated Philip Smith, executive director for the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Public Policy Analysis. Smith also serves as the Washington director for the Lao Veterans of America, Inc., the Lao Students Movement for Democracy and a coalition of Lao and Hmong organizations seeking political and human rights reforms in Laos.

more
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=155-05062004



And we still have promises to keep for that war


Laos - 2004 Anuual Report


The arrest of two European journalists for investigating the situation of the Hmong ethnic minority drew international attention to the lack of freedom in Laos, where the news media take their orders from the authorities. A press law announced in 2001 has still not been adopted.

The 15-year prison sentences received by reporters Thierry Falise and Vincent Reynaud drew the world's attention to the obstacles to foreign press coverage of the plight of Laos' Hmong ethnic minority. An international outcry forced the authorities in Vientiane to release the two journalists but their Laotian guides remained in prison and were allegedly mistreated.
Directly controlled by the information and culture ministry, the Laotian press gave a very one-sided account of the case of the two European journalists. The French-language weekly Le Rénovateur was the only publication to give both sides of the story, and it was immediately censored. The government news agency Khaosan Pathet Lao (KPL) is the only news organisation that is allowed to express a view on sensitive issues.
The party newspaper Paxaxon (People) bills itself as a "revolutionary publication written by the people and for the people which serves the revolution's political action." Journalists are civil servants in the employ of the information and culture ministry. The foreign ministry also has a say in media content. Criticism of the "friendly countries," especially the Vietnamese big brother and Burma, is banned.
To escape the propaganda, many Laotians are in the habit of watching Thai TV stations that can be received in border areas, including the capital. The authorities have never tried to put a stop to this. Similarly, the international radio services that broadcast in Lao, especially Radio Free Asia and Radio France Internationale, have never been jammed. On the other hand, foreign journalists who enter on a press visa are watched closely and are banned from visiting some parts of the country. The authorities control the only Internet operator and block some news websites and sites operated by dissidents based abroad.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10197


Hmong leader in Calif. may be target of violence in Minnesota

Associated Press

ST. PAUL - Authorities are looking for connections among a spate of violent incidents directed against local Hmong leaders affiliated with Gen. Vang Pao, a California resident regarded as the most influential Hmong leader in the United States.

The incidents include a firebombing at the suburban St. Paul home of the general's son, a drive-by shooting at the home of his translator, a suspicious fire at a St. Paul social service agency the general founded, and a reported hit list that includes a veteran St. Paul police officer.

Star Tribune of Minneapolis in its Sunday editions. Rumors are swirling about what's behind the violence, which the Star Tribune of Minneapolis reported in its Sunday editions. Popular theories include communist agents, political divisions or the opening shots in a war of succession in the Hmong community.

"I believe there is something going on in a more general way," said Steve Young, former dean of the Hamline University law school and a close adviser to Vang, who lives outside Los Angeles. "These are not isolated incidents. Somebody is doing something."

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/politics/8574361 ...


gen. vang pao is a liar
Base: military
Re: My war too (Rose)
Re: WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW (your own people)
Re: i think... (kasey)
Re: General VANG PAO>>>??? (Alexis)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:01:18 GMT
From: [email protected] (unknown yang)

vang pao is a liar who don't care about no one but himself. lets just face it, he is hmong and hmong men are are full of it. it was because of him lying to our parents in Laos that led to the death of over 108,000 hmong peoples. Two of thos people were my brothers. My dad lost his whole family and everyone else he cares for. General "coward" is not helping the hmongs in the usa neither the ones back home. he uses all the money he gets on gambling and the us lets him have 8 wives just because he was a dog to the americans who brainwashed the HMONGS to actually take part in th war just to die for the americans. A "TRUE LEADER" survives with all his people or die trying.

http://knossos.shu.edu/HyperNewsV/get/vp/military/66/4/16/1/2.html


US WI: Sen. George Asks UW For Probe On Vang Pao

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html
Newshawk: Drug Policy Forum of Wisconsin www.drugsense.org/dpfwi/
Votes: 0
Pubdate: Sat, 27 Apr 2002
Source: Capital Times, The (WI)
Copyright: 2002 The Capital Times
Contact: [email protected]
Website: http://www.captimes.com /
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/73
Author: Pat Schneider


SEN. GEORGE ASKS UW FOR PROBE ON VANG PAO

State Sen. Gary George is calling on UW-Madison Chancellor John Wiley to order an investigation into allegations by a UW-Madison professor that the commander of the CIA's secret army in the Vietnam War - now a leader of refugee Hmong in the United States - engaged in drug trafficking in Laos.

The allegations, 30 years old, resurfaced this month, enraging the refugee community.

"We will seek the truth and follow that path wherever it leads," George said Friday at a news conference at the State Capitol packed with Hmong veterans and supporters of Gen. Vang Pao.

Professor Alfred McCoy wrote about his findings on the role of Vang Pao and the CIA in drug trafficking in southeast Asia in a 1972 book, "The Politics of Heroin."

McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium, an important cash crop for the Hmong, to heroin factories to help Vang Pao seal his leadership role and ensure a supply of fighters who waged a secret war against the North Vietnamese in Laos.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html


McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium


Posted on Wed, Apr. 28, 2004


ST. PAUL: Crime spree on Hmong investigated

BY LENORA CHU and TODD NELSON

Pioneer Press


Authorities are trying to determine whether a connection exists between anonymous death threats leveled Monday against seven Hmong community leaders and recent crimes committed against prominent Hmong.

St. Paul Police spokesman Paul Schnell revealed Wednesday that the death threats came in an anonymous call received by a St. Paul Hmong veterans group. Local and federal law enforcement agencies are investigating the alleged hit list.

Authorities also confirmed Wednesday that an object hurled through a window sparked the arson fire that destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of influential leader Gen. Vang Pao. Cha Vang narrowly escaped the early Sunday fire with his wife and three daughters.

A flammable substance was also found in the home, according to Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla, who declined to identify the object and substance.

Two other crimes are being investigated for possible connections. On April 20, someone fired five shots into the Maplewood home of Xang Vang, Gen. Vang Pao's translator. The following day, officials discovered someone had thrown a brick into a window and started a fire at the St. Paul offices of the Lao Family Community of Minnesota.

more
http://www.realcities.com/mld/twincities/8543732.htm



Muaj ib nqe ntawm Sen. Norm Coleman cov lus hais tias "nws yog ib qho tseem ceeb heev uas U.S. State Department yuav tsum ua txhua yam coj kom tau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb mus rau tebchaws Lostsuas thiab pab kom tau txoj kev muaj vaj huam sib luag (humanitarian) rau haiv neeg Hmoob nrog rau daws kom tau teeb meem tsoom Hmoob tawg rog nyob rau SE Asia".

http://www.hmonglaoradio.org/default.asp?active_page_id=32

From The Wire

Rapid Fire At Home Investigated
Saint Paul Pioneer Press (April 27, 2004)

Maplewood investigators suspect an arsonist set a weekend fire at the home of a prominent Hmong community leader, who is calling the blaze a politically motivated attempt to kill him and his family.

The fire destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of Gen. Vang Pao, one of the most widely known and influential Hmong leaders in the United States.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Section=WireNews&Sub ...

Cha Vang, his wife and their three daughters were asleep when the fire broke out after 1 a.m. Sunday. A noise, possibly the sound of breaking glass, prompted him to investigate and he discovered the flames toward the back of the home. He and his family escaped unharmed, but the fire left little more than the garage standing.

"If you want to terrorize a person or send a message, you slash a tire," Cha Vang said Monday. "To burn down a house with people sleeping in it is attempted murder."

Investigators said they suspect arson because the house burned so thoroughly within minutes, said Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla. Investigators searched the soot and debris for evidence for a second day on Monday.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Section=WireNews&Sub ...

1961
Eisenhower warns the young president-elect that Laos is a major crisis, the first "domino" in Southest Asia. The CIA begins the covert build up of Hmong forces under General Vang Pao at the beginning of the year. At the same time the U.S. sends the rightist forces to Laos six AT-6 Harvard trainer aircraft armed with machine guns and equipped to fire rockets and drop bombs. The covert PEO infantrymen are replaced by 400 clandestine U.S special forces personnel known as White Star Movile Training Teams. Kennedy announces U.S support for the sovereignty of Laos in March, directly confronting the Soviet Union. Geneva conference on Laos opens in May.

http://www.seacrc.org/pages/ravenschrono.html

http://www.ohiopowmia.com/news/2190302.html


37. COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER


COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER GENERAL VANG PAO AND SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL
Coleman working to alleviate humanitarian crises in Laos and streamline Hmong refugee resettlement process

January 21st, 2004 - Washington, DC - Senator Norm Coleman today hosted a meeting in his Senate office between Hmong leader General Vang Pao and Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs Matt Daley. The group, which also included Chao Ophat Nachmpassak, a member of the Lao royal family, discussed General Vang Pao's efforts to bring peace to Laos, the refugee resettlement program for Hmong in Thailand, and the humanitarian crisis facing many Hmong living in Laos.

"I have some serious concerns about the way the Hmong people are being treated today in Southeast Asia," Coleman said. "It's critical that the U.S. State Department does all it can to bring peace to Laos and an end to the humanitarian and refugee crises facing many Hmong in Southeast Asia. This meeting is a solid first step in opening up a real, meaningful diplomatic dialogue between Hmong leaders in Southeast Asia and the U.S. State Department."

General Vang Pao presented to State Department officials his vision for a lasting peace in Laos, as he publicly articulated on November 26. State Department officials listened to Vang Pao's presentation, and discussed the changing opportunities for peaceful reconciliation in Southeast Asia.

Daley, who had just returned from an official visit to the region, described the U.S. initiative to resettle in the U.S. as many as 14,000 Hmong refugees currently living in Wat Tham Krabok, Thailand

http://coleman.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&Pr ...

Hmong Proving Potent Political Organizers in U.S.
SuabHmongRadio, News Report,
Compiled and Translated by Pha Lo, Apr 30, 2004

MILWAUKEE, Wisc. -- Milwuakee is home to approximately 20,000 Hmong, a nomadic tribe that emigrated from Laos in the Vietnam War's aftermath. Here in the United States, Hmong are discovering that their traditional, clan-based system of leadership can benefit U.S.-style grassroots politicking.

Tens of thousands of Hmong left Laos in the 1970s and 1980s after losing a war in which they were covertly recruited to serve alongside the U.S. military. Here in the United States, many were naturalized as U.S. citizens after the Lao-Veterans bill, introduced in 1996, expedited the process for those who had served or been disabled in that war.

Since gaining citizenship, Hmong have begun to exercise their voting rights. This year marked a political rite of passage for Milwaukee-are Hmong who worked on Republican State Sen. Bob Welch’s campaign for the U.S. Senate. He won the Republican primary and will compete in general elections.

Wisconsin is home to approximately 40,000 Hmong.

Victor Vaj is a Hmong radio personality in Milwaukee who spent a year working on the State Senator’s campaign. For Vaj, seeing an older generation of naturalized citizen exercise voting rights fulfills a second purpose. It encourages the U.S.-born generation to use their birthright along with their traditional Hmong upbringing to pursue politics in this country.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=9d4de22d1f ...

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive
Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive


By Elizabeth Putnam
Wausau Daily Herald
[email protected]

The clan system remains an integral part of Hmong culture, but the assimilation of the Hmong into American culture is threatening the system's survival.

The Hmong clans
Original 12 Hmong clans
Cha, Hang, Her, Kue, Khang, Lee, Moua, Song, Thao, Vang, Xiong, Yang
The 18 clans of today
Cha, Cheng, Chue, Fang, Hang, Her, Khang, Kong, Kue, Lee, Lor, Moua, Pha, Thao, Vang, Vue, Xiong, Yang
Sources: "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao and the Hmong Cultural and Resource Center of Minnesota at hmongcenter.org



Within Hmong culture, there are 18 clans, and members of each share the same last name. The clan leaders and members provide each other with social, economic and legal assistance. They help organize social events such as weddings and offer support during difficult times, as when a family member is ill.

"I think that in the future, most of the younger children now might lose that knowledge of the clan, but that's why we need to teach or educate the kids," said Chang Yang, 36, president of the board of the Wausau Area Hmong Mutual Association.

The origin of the clan system is a mystery, according to local Hmong residents and the book "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao, a professor at California State University in Monterey Bay. Thao uses an alternate spelling of Hmong in his work.

Hmong folklore tells the story of a brother and sister who married and had a child who resembled a seed. They cut it up into 12 pieces and scattered them. The pieces made people, each representing a clan. The 12 clans eventually branched out into 18 clans.

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/291782635188000.shtml

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive in California
Tamara Keith
Fresno, California
08 Apr 2004, 19:28 UTC

Listen to Tamara Keith's report (RealAudio)
Keith report - Download 676k (RealAudio)

In just a few months as many as 3000 new Hmong refugees could arrive in California's Central Valley. For years they've been living in a makeshift camp at a broken-down Buddhist temple in Thailand. The Hmong people aided the United States during the Vietnam War and were forced to flee their home country of Laos as the war ended. Thousands have come to the U.S since the early 1980s, but nearly 15,000 remain on the temple grounds in Thailand. In December the State Department bowed to pressure from Hmong Americans and the Thai government and agreed to let this group of refugees immigrate. Tamara Keith reports on what Fresno community leaders are doing to prepare for the arrival.
Hmong refugee Pai Yang came to this country when she was 10 years old. Now she's the Refugee Resettlement Director for Catholic Charities in Fresno, helping families fill out the forms needed to bring their relatives over from Thailand. For Ms. Yang and others, the upcoming influx of new refugees came as a surprise. She said, "For our community this is like a very great time, a joyful time. To be able to have this opportunity to resettle in this country, to have the opportunity for education, health, etc."

On this morning, Ms. Yang is meeting with Pai-Yang Thao and her husband, who are hoping to sponsor 22 family members now living on the temple grounds in Thailand. The young couple visited the camp in December. They found it surrounded by armed guards, and the people there living with no electricity or running water.

"When we got there we felt very sad that they were living in a bad place and being caged up like animals," she said. "They can't go outside to find food and they're always waiting for us over here to send them money."

Ms. Thao can't wait for her parents, siblings, nieces and nephews to arrive in Fresno. She said that for her the reunion is like a dream come true. But, if past experience is any indication, her family will likely have a hard time adjusting to life here in the valley. Pai Yang says that when she arrived with her mother and sister in the 1980s, they struggled with the language and the culture. In Laos, her mother was a successful businesswoman, but here in California she had to pick tomatoes to make a living. Ms. Yang believes that many Hmong refugees had similar difficulties.

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=0D604918-8C63-43F1-A1BBC15 ...

400 protest opening trade with Laos
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription), MN - Apr 14, 2004
... older Hmong military veterans in camouflage fatigues and younger Hmong college students ... for the US government to pressure the communist leaders to address human ...

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199810/15_radila_reform /

Duluth's Hmong Families Find Reform Pressure
By Amy Radil
October 15, 1998 RealAudio 2.0 14.4
Part of the MPR Welfare to Work Series

DULUTH'S SMALL HMONG COMMUNITY has been steadily growing over the past ten years. Late last year there were about 175 Hmong households in Duluth on the welfare rolls. But then Minnesota moved in to welfare reform and as they themselves admit, St. Louis County and the City of Duluth Job Training forgot the city's immigrants.

Bea Larson: There was a lot of initial panic and fear and initial orientation sessions had to be redone.
Bea Larson, is an instructor at the Adult Learning Center who teaches English as a second language classes. She soon learned the county had not only sent out letters informing Hmong recipents of the changes in English alone... it was also conducting required orientation sessions exclusively in English.

Larson: Initially people were asked to sign jobs plans that they didn't understand. A number of different folks with limited English had to be re-oriented in ways that they'd understand what they were agreeing to do.
Larson contacted Gwen Updegraaf, a legal aid attorney, who met with a group of Hmong welfare recipients who told her of further problems. The Minnesota Family Investment Program, or MFIP, legislation calls for participants to receive an individualized assessment with a job counselor, who helps them formulate a plan consisting of education, training or active job seeking. Updegraaf says instead, these people had pre-printed job forms instructing them to perform 30 hours of job search each week.

Updegraaf: There was no individualized assessment done with these people, no one sat down with them and determined how much English they spoke. Several people who had problems with their plans complained of disabilities.
Amidst the confusion, Hmong families began leaving Duluth for the Twin Cities. Reasons varied. Some wanted to join relatives, some wanted access to support services in their own language, and many found ready employment and higher wages. When Updegraaf contacted St. Louis County officials with her concerns, they agreed to allow Hmong immigrants to start over in the orientation process, this time with an interpreter, Bobbee Vang. Vang was hired with a grant from the McKnight Foundation to provide special support for Southeast Asians seeking jobs in Duluth.


My interest in Hmong started here in GD

lojasmo (219 posts) Sun May-02-04 01:24 AM
Original message
Police everywhere in duluth WTF


There was a police officer in the lobby of my hotel on canal point, and an oficer in the lobby of Grandma's restaraunt/bar.

In the cold war, reportedly, duluth was number seven on the list of probable nuclear targets.

Any ideas?

Jackpine Radical (1000+ posts) Sun May-02-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #25

27. OK--but why Duluth?


It's 150 miles north of the Twin Cities.

social workers and educators say it's been a struggle


FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The twin cities are home to the largest Hmong population in North America, about 60,000 people. They began arriving from Laos and Thai refugee camps in the late '70s, initially placed here by local church-based refugee relief groups. And while this community has plenty to celebrate, social workers and educators say it's been a struggle. Of all the Southeast Asian refugees who fled for the U.S., none was more reluctant or less prepared than the Hmong. Hmong music, artwork, and ceremonies depict an agrarian people who fled once, a century before, from China to almost total isolation in the hills of Laos. Until the mid-20th century, the Hmong did not have a written language or a currency.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/hmong_5-4.html


2001 Hmong Population and Education in
the United States and the World
August 24, 2001
Researched and Collected by Dr. Vang Pobzeb

From 1975 to 1991, more than 500,000 people in Laos fled and became international political refugees in the world because of the legacy of the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.


The Communist Lao and Vietnamese governments have been exterminating Hmong people in Laos since the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 and are still doing so today, because of Hmong people cooperated with the U.S. government during the Vietnam War. In 2001, witnesses in Laos have reported that many thousands of Communist Vietnamese soldiers are cooperating with the Communist Lao government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (LPDR) to conduct an ethnic cleansing war, genocide and human rights violations against Hmong people in Laos. Therefore, we appeal to and call upon Hmong American intellectuals, educators and the general public to unify our leadership strategies and efforts in order to save the lives of Hmong people in Laos. We call upon all Hmong people to unify and work together to save the lives of Hmong people. Power politics in the world and global actors are remaining silent on the genocide against Hmong people in Laos because they are concerned with economics and commercial goods for themselves. They do not really care about human rights violations and genocide in Laos and in other parts of the world.

There are about 300,000 Hmong American people in the United States in 2001.


In 2001, there are approximately 80,000 Hmong American people in Minnesota; and 80,000 Hmong Americans in Wisconsin.


About 40,000 Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states between 1996 and 2001.


About 70,000 Hmong Americans still live in California in 2001.


Many Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota and Wisconsin and other states because of the problems of welfare reforms and unemployment problems

http://www.laohumrights.org/2001data.html

Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier


Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml





Attacks on Hmong leaders a puzzle
Herón Márquez Estrada And Chao Xiong, Star Tribune
May 2, 2004HMONG

The theories for the attacks range from payback for the assassination in Thailand in October 2002 of Pa Kao Her, a Hmong resistance leader, to clan rivalries and an internal squabble in Vang's organization, according to community leaders.

Community leaders say Her, decades ago, aligned himself with other clans to form political opposition to the general. Her's killer has never been discovered. But in some circles and on the Internet, people speculate about whether the general or his supporters might have been involved.

As a result, Young does not discount the assassination payback theory, even though he says the general was not involved. "In my mind that is a possibility," Young said.

He added that the violence, particularly the arson attack on the general's son and the drive-by shooting, also could be part of a clan feud aimed at the Vangs and not at the general in particular.

"We are hearing the same things you are," Thomalla said. "There is so much chatter going on. We are looking at a lot of different things."

Critical speech

Some community leaders believe the trigger of the current unrest might have been a speech the general gave on Nov. 26 at the Prom Center in Oakdale.

more
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/4753340.html

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Since this was an illegal invasion, nothing about this "war"

is logical. There are no pros or cons, every aspect is illegal. so, a discussion of the merits of volunteers, conscripts, enlistments or whatever simply obscures the fact that nothing that happens in Iraq makes any sense. It is all immoral, unethical, and illegal.

[Khephra]

10. Aren't these people even listening to Bush's so-called rhetoric?

We're there to bring democracy. You can't bring democracy if you fucking kill them all.

We lost. It's time to cut and run. Our own soldiers and people don't know why we are supposed to be there anymore.

[DaveSZ]

12. A Murdoch owned paper

Murdoch has the blood of thousands on his hands for helping to deceive the public about Iraq.

[jdj]

36. Yes. The pukes would love to hang this on a woman,

it is a tried and true M.O. for them. England is a white-trash Hillary, and Jessica Lynch almost was; were it not for Larry Flynt refusing to publish the pics they would have ruined her, too. In "Blinded by the Right" by Brock, one of the scandal mongers specifically asked Brock to find another woman to excorciate during a republican crises, because they use that thread of misogyny that runs in this culture to their advantage every time they can; they even used it in 2000 by letting Katherine Harris take the fall for the election fraud, even liberals jumped on the bandwagon with not subtle misogyny instead of focusing on the fact that Harris had been involved in suspicious elections procedures for years;it is probably her calling in life.

I am truly awed at the sinister brilliance of Limbaugh for trying his level best to move this debate from moral into the philosophical by trying to focus people on the motivations of those shown in the pics as opposed to the whole chain of command and the systemic problems with having contractors and the military sharing command over these enlisted people. He is totally willing to fall on his sword and sound like an immoral person in order to move the focus away from where it needs to be. His dedication to the republican party is psychotic.

I'm not excusing England, by culpability started alot higher up in this one, and she's at the bottom of the pyramid

[leftchick]

32. Some of the soldiers and half of AmeriKa know why we are there....

We are paying Iraqis back for 9/11. Rush and faux told them so.

[Tellurian]

15. Real Racist Crowd, It seems.

BUSHWASHING:


"A lot of people here think they ought to just blow up the whole of Iraq," Colleen Kesner said.

Because Bush said 'Thugs Rule the World'.

"We went there to help the jackasses and they started blowing us up. Lynndie didn't kill 'em, she didn't cut 'em up. She should have shot some of the suckers."

The only jackasses are you! We went there to $teal their OIL, even if you and Lynndie are the last two dipsh*ts to figure it out!

[LiberalFighter]

20. All the more reason to avoid places in America like that.

Or in their words... we should blow up their neck of the woods.

[Judi Lynn]

26. Smoke'em out, get'em on the run. n/t

[maddezmom]

21. these folks are helping her cause..........

"To the country boys here, if you're a different nationality, a different race, you're sub-human. That's the way girls like Lynndie are raised.


"Tormenting Iraqis, in her mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey. Every season here you're hunting something. Over there, they're hunting Iraqis."

[seemslikeadream]

18. Poor little Lynndie

All that torture and degradation. And those horrid khaki clothes.
Lynndie just needs the chance to be a little girl again.

Would you like to help her...?

[LiberalFighter]

19. Was there anything about Brigadier General Janice Karpinski's...

statement regarding photos showing more than 6 pairs of boots?

If so, who were those other people present during those atrocities?

[saigon68]

29. WE HAD POSTED THE PHOTO FROM WASH POST

IT CLEARLY SHOWED 9 PEOPLE PARTICIPATING/WATCHING.

IT HAS BEEN MOVED FROM THEIR SERVER. WE ARE LOOKING TO FIND IT

[saigon68]

74. THE PHOTO IS DELETED PER CORRUPT GENERAL MYERS

Meyers is working overtime to keep the lid on this. According to MSNBC the "PICTURES
AREN'T EVEN IN DC YET"

What a Freaking LIE. They could send a Giga bite of data in 2 seconds for heaven sakes ---do
they believe we are that STOOPID ??

NeoCon Fucking liars posing as Generals



Next week or the week after next the NEOCON Generals plan to let a few select congressMEN
see them..

Then after the congressMEN go on TV with their usual outrage statements THE PENTAGON
will decide what to do next.

I hope the DINOS and others keep the heat on these CRIMINALS IN UNIFORM

[bluedog]

22. she looks and acts

like someone(back in my school days) that I would smack the shit grin off her face....shes got that attitude.as so has her family.they to me have a huge attitude problem.she doesn't look like any down home girl to me.....shes a first rate punk!!!

[saigon68]

25. OUR PERKY PRINCESSS OF ABU GHRAIB

Lynndie England is pictured in her 2001 senior portrait from Frankfort High School in Short Gap, West Virginia. England, who was photographed holding a naked prisoner on a leash at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (news - web sites), was charged on May 7, 2004 with abusing prisoners, military officials at the North Carolina base where she is stationed said. Photo by Reuters (Handout)

[crossroads]

50. I gotta agree!

[happynewyear]

24. Blow up Iraq

Gee with these types of statements coming from her good ol' hometown, I am not surprised she was involved in committing these acts. I'd still like to know who gave her the orders to do these horrendous things to the Iraqi prisoners. Why were the Iraqis in prison? No one has answered this question still.

A prom queen she wasn't ... :puke:

[AlienGirl]

73. Why focus on her looks at all?

Attractive people can be evil and ugly people can be good. If this were a man nobody would be concerned he wasn't a "prom king."

Focus on the actions, and on what corruption it is that turns a normal and, yes, attractive high-school student into a torturer. And then let's fix it.

Tucker

[lebkuchen]

27. These people talk just like Lieberman

Relatives?

[saigon68]

76. kick

[Gemini Cat]

28. This is the face of America, the world will remember

Makes it rather hard to travel to other places and try to convince the people we're really not like this. At least most of us aren't.

The only weapons of mass destruction in Iraq are us.
I am ashamed.

[bluedog]

31. wanted the money for school huh?

wonder what she was going to study? I certainly hope it had nothing to do with humans or animals....

[susu369]

37. Does the fact that Lynndie is pregnant

with Graner's baby freak anyone else out? This is the stuff of horror movies.

:scared:

[crossroads]

51. Was it S&M?

Maybe she and the retard got off on the torture. Could the cigarette in her mouth give a clue?
:shrug:

[happynewyear]

57. possibly so or ...

at least a strong inclination towards it. Don't some people consider it awfully amusing that the boyfriend is a former prison guard that was dismissed for his brutality?

So, he hooks up with the princess here. I personally don't care where she lives or lived - it all fits a profile. A convenient pair was selected, that is what I think. Nice piece of CIA bait for terra training. Take these photos and videos of these two performing these acts that they perhaps enjoy themselves and show these pictures to the prisoners they are bringing in.

If not that has anyone considered the idea of BRAINWASHED? I have.

Torture, torture, torture until you go crazy and die.

My oh my what a plan.

Thank the military intelligence for being so thoughtful as to master such a refined one.

Oh yes, yes indeed.

[loathesomeshrub]

63. I counted back 5 months. They probably did it right after the torture,

timing is right

[lapfog_1]

60. I would be insisting on a DNA test when that baby is born...

likely as not, half Iraqi... rape is not a male on female only
crime.

[monobrau]

39. Question

"And what the Iraqis do to our men and women are just?"

And what American POW was abused? The war mongers were screaming bloody murder when our POWs were shown on TV, but by their accounts they were treated well.

The behavior of a mob in Fallujah or a roaming band of rioting football fans is not the standard we use to judge the conduct of a military unit or a police force, and it's not what a civilised society bases policy on. This is the fundamental flaw in the typical freeper mind; they can't grasp the principle that our institutions are supposed to represent our constitution and our ideals, not whatever bloodlust the population has worked up this week.
The Freeper view of foreign policy is essentially a bar fight.

[lapfog_1]

61. Msotly true

except for that Italian guy they executed after capture.

But this shouldn't be a comparative study. If they tortured raped
and killed every soldier captured, it still shouldn't matter. We
are not suppossed to be that way. One immorality doesn't justify
another in return.

[Wapsie B]

40. I just cannot believe

that everyone there is behind Lynndie's actions. If it's anything like most small towns, there's a division, a portion of the town that doesn't agree with this at all, but totally ignored by the press.

[seemslikeadream]

41. Saigon Bride

Saigon Bride lyrics

(Music by Joan Baez, Lyrics by Nina Duscheck)

Farewell my wistful Saigon bride
I'm going out to stem the tide
A tide that never saw the seas
It flows through jungles, round the trees
Some say it's yellow, some say red
It will not matter when we're dead

How many dead men will it take
To build a dike that will not break?
How many children must we kill
Before we make the waves stand still?

Though miracles come high today
We have the wherewithal to pay
It takes them off the streets you know
To places they would never go alone
It gives them useful trades
The lucky boys are even paid

Men die to build their Pharoah's tombs
And still and still the teeming wombs
How many men to conquer Mars
How many dead to reach the stars?

Farewell my wistful Saigon bride
I'm going out to stem the tide
A tide that never saw the seas
It flows through jungles, round the trees
Some say it's yellow, some say red
It will not matter when we're dead

[MallRat]

43. Wow. I don't know where to begin.

I'm... I...

Honest to god, I am so furious reading these quotes, I can't even begin to rebut them.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

I think EVERY AMERICAN should read this. Two-thirds of this country should find these comments repellent enough to repudiate the war and the President who got us into it.

-MR

P.S. This is from a Murdoch publication??? What do you make of that?

[Domitan]

44. This is why you Americans need to take back your country

Seriously! Be no longer a member of the silent majority. Show the world another face of America!

[RebelOne]

45. Here we go again. The press stressing "trailer park."

I am becoming totally pissed off about this. I live in a trailer park (correctly called a mobile home park) and there are no low-lifes like her in my neighborhood.

[Rhiannon12866]

46. Yes, I caught this, as well. Like Tanya Harding

This is irrelevant. The important issue is that these people lacked the proper training or supervision for this type of job and responsibility. Bush* is short on troops and will never reinstate the draft in an election year. So they brought in inexperienced reservists who weren't up to the task. Whether she lived in a mobile home or Buckingham Palace, she shouldn't have been placed in this job, as is true of the rest of those who are guilty of these atrocities. They are many more. And who knows where they grew up? They are just singling her out because everyone has seen her photo and it just puts a human face on this. I can't stand to even look at the photos. And this woman was there.
:puke:

[saigon68]

47. They are going to lock her up

It could be for quite a while.

The NEOCON WAR CRIMINAL Jeffrey Miller is there at the PRISON to deflect our efforts to pin this on the higher ups.

He says the interrogators (SAT MAY 8, 2004) ARE NOW OBEYING THE GENEVA CONVENTION

[leftchick]

49. really?

Another lie for the sheeple...

[Rhiannon12866]

53. They are going to lock all these people up for quite awhile

I was discussing this with a friend while watching the hearings last night. They are definitely going to pin this completely on those who took part and make an example of them to take the heat off those with higher rank and the administration. They are all culpable. Thanks for the info.

Oh, NOW, they're obeying the Geneva Convention? I remember when Al-Jazeera interviewed Shoshanna Johnson and her fellow American POWs. Bush* was all upset that this was humiliation and not in accord with the Geneva Convention. What would he call these atrocities?! And all he can manage is a lukewarm apology to the King of Jordan? They should all go down for this.:grr:

[saigon68]

55. The low ranking troops are toast

Jeffrey Miller who suggested they "loosen up" the prisoners is going on a a very lucrative career as a lobbyist for 'CONTRACT COMPANIES"

[crossroads]

52. Only the elite can afford homes

without two incomes today. It is a necessity for many people to live in Mobile home parks. Society is to blame. The media will focus on this tho because it further diminishes the girl! :grr:

[happynewyear]

58. yes it keeps her "in her place"

poor and living in a trailer.

Not a freakin millionaire/billionaire like the rest of this pack of rats! Agree indeed!

[QC]

64. Good point.

It lets the reader point at the people at the bottom (who are, of course, guilty) and think, "well, we know how those people are," rather than thinking too much about how the people ultimately responsible for this whole mess have lots of money, went to the best schools, wear hand-tailored suits, and have never set foot in a trailer.

[shanti]

80. hmmmm

i own my own home, but would never refer to myself as "elite" for doing so...why would you say this?

[louis-t]

56. Give them a break, they did say

'trailer home'. Smirk.

[pfitz59]

48. Mars Attacks

Jack Black as Lynndie England

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

59. A few points on this

First of all, I'd like to see a bit more attention paid to the men who were involved in it, too. Is it just that she is female that makes her story so novel?

Secondly, any trained servicemember knows that you are under no obligation to FOLLOW ANY ORDER WHICH IS UNLAWFUL AND/OR IMMORAL, period. My husband was active duty Army for 15 years, he was in Desert Storm, etc. He knew the whole time he was in that were he to be given an order which he KNEW to be unlawful and/or immoral, he would NOT have to follow it, nor would he. That is the ONE exception to the rule of following orders.

Thirdly, I have a theory that if that prison had been run by active duty, full-time professional servicemembers instead of Reservists under the direction of privately contracted civilians, the chances of this happening would have been FAR less. Don't get me wrong--it still could have happened--but I think the chances would have been slim. Active duty men and women get it pounded in their head how they are to treat detainees--the Five S's, etc., and they also get pounded into their heads the Uniform Code of Military Justice and all the punishments described therein for servicemembers who violate Geneva Convention, etc.

[loathesomeshrub]

65. Are they even supposed to be taking orders from non military?

I don't even think that worrying about lawful or unlawful even applies.
Here's how it probably went:
Mercenaries: Why don't you guys just soften them up a little for us before we bring em in to talk. You know, keep 'em from sleeping, and stuff. Then you could really show em who's boss, take their clothes away, let em be naked for a few days, that'll show 'em who's the boss. And hey, here's a thought, why don't you make them play with themselves, maybe with each other and why don't you get some pictures, and we could show them to them while we interrogate them, that'd make them talk. Maybe make them get into this naked pile of Iraqi trash - well I'm sure you can come up with stuff

And Lynndie and Co.'s eyes got really big and they're like "wow, that really sounds like fun, ok!"

Then, she and Graner went and made a baby!

[ikojo]

67. I think people are fixated on Ms England because

she is a woman. Why obsess on a woman and not the male participants? I can only tell you my hypothesis: As an activist I have heard female lefty types say that the reason the world sucks like it does is because men are in charge. What they believe is that if only women were in charge the world would be a kinder and more compassionate place.

Yeah, right. The whole SYSTEM and CULTURE need to be changed not just the gender OR race of those at the top. We need to change how we relate and value one another. IMHO, our culture teaches us to view one another in an I-It relationship (or what can YOU do for ME?) instead of what I understand an I-THOU relationship to be, how do YOU compliment and how do I compliment your place in the world?

Seeing the pics of Ms England, clearly enjoying herself, taking part in the torture of fellow human beings shocks people that a member of the "gentler" gender could do such a thing. Women simply are not "supposed" to behave this way. Now when men do such thing it is chalked up to testosterone and aggressiveness. It is kind of expected of men, or so we are told.

[sadiesworld]

66. Is there ever a point when we wonder why the poster child

for corporate corruption is MS Martha Stewart and the posture child for military malfeasance is MS Lynndie England? I, in no way, mean to excuse their behavior, but it seems odd that the minority always seems to provide the example.

[shamanstar]

69. ive been wondering the same thing

pin it on the woman who happens to be playing in a mans game and we wont make the connection that the men are doing things much much worse.
marth stewart was found guilty but what about kenneth lay or dick cheney? did they ever even go to court, much less see the inside of a jail cell?
will the male soldiers who raped iraqi women ever get charged with a crime?

[QC]

71. That's an excellent point.

And it's not only that they are women, but also that they are outsiders, people not of the establishment, which is always and everywhere blameless.

That's the Bush strategy for dealing with this scandal--that it's the fault of, in the words of one unnamed Pentagon spokesman, "seven morons who lost the war." So if they can pass it off as the work of a castrating woman and some hayseeds, there's no need to confront the issue of who bears ultimate responsibility.

[IndianaGreen]

70. "If you're a different nationality, a different race, you're sub-human"

"A lot of people here think they ought to just blow up the whole of Iraq," Colleen Kesner said.

"To the country boys here, if you're a different nationality, a different race, you're sub-human. That's the way girls like Lynndie are raised.

"Tormenting Iraqis, in her mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey. Every season here you're hunting something. Over there, they're hunting Iraqis."

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907

[MessiahRp]

84. The link doesn't work

And if that is a quote I most definitely want to archive an article with that in it.

That's exactly the mentality that makes me believe that there should be an IQ test related to voting rights in this country.

Rp

[QC]

85. It's a Murdoch paper, so no great loss.

I think we can all appreciate why Murdoch would want to portray the torture scandal as the work of a few renegade hayseeds, rather than a policy approved by the White House.

[Solly Mack]

72. Ignorance is the root of so much evil

but willful ignorance needs to be punished severely

terminal stupidity isn't terminal enough...

[saigon68]

75. Looks like Myers is going to make Lynndie the sacrificial Lamb

Too bad.

well he has a nice $$ Million + job at Northrup lined up.

[alarimer]

77. Stupid kid things???

She is not a kid- that is no excuse. But I do think they are making her the scapegoat here. I wonder also how much of this scandal is attributable to the dehumanization of Iraqis and Arabs in general we have seen since 9/11. It is probably easier to treat prisoners this way if you think of them as subhuman. Many people in this country are appallingly ignorant of the rest of the world and its various cultures.

[Guaranteed]

79. If they won't let us liberate 'em, we're just

going to have to kill 'em.

These people are the worst kind of people on the planet.

[Zerex71]

81. More white trash mentality at work.

[QC]

82. Speaking of bigots....

[noonwitch]

83. If they were following orders,

Then I would say whoever the highest ranking person who issued the orders to abuse and torture prisoners is the one responsible. No matter what, Bush shares responsibility because it is his war.