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jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:50 PM
Original message
American War Crimes -- International Justice?
I've been physically nauseous and had difficulty sleeping since the torture pictures were released. The past several weeks, like me, so many people here at DU have rightfully expressed their outrage.

I wanted to address one issue about this that has disturbed me since before the war began. I served in the U.S. military for six years, and have been proud of my service. Among other things I was the special security officer (MI) assigned to the Army Special Forces Bn forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. I know that all American soldiers are schooled in the Geneva Conventions and rules of warfare during basic training.

Long before the war began, I distinctly remember hearing several times that the US administration had withdrawn from accountability to international law and the court at the Hague. The excuse was that Americans would be at risk in some way if the US continued to be held to the International laws.

I remember being disturbed by this news. The post 9/11 frenzy for revenge was fresh in many uninformed people's minds at the time. The Patriot Act had been pushed through congress without public debate. Prisoners were being held at Gitmo without legal recourse. I remember thinking that in such a climate, the release of all legal constraints against torture and abuse of prisoners of war would lead to inevitable horrors. But I can be an emotional guy...

At any rate, lots of people here at DU are now expressing their outrage by wishing to see the perpetrators tried for war crimes in the international court -- even the highest ranking members of the current administration. I agree. My feeling is Bush et al are criminals and are guilty of crimes against the people of the United States, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, and guilty of God knows how many other covert machinations we will never know about.

My question is. Does anyone know about this exception for American troops that was made to international law prior to Bush's invasions? Is it a fact? Has America withdrawn in some way from accountability beyond public relations spin? Are our troops and our citizens now immune from prosecution in the international court?

I'm certain I'm not the only one here on DU who would like a definitive answer to this question. Because if it is a fact, then this torture debacle is the result of an institutionalized policy, and Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney Wolfowitz and the whole pack of parasitic scum need to be brought to justice for poisoning our nation's heritage.

I am angry and I am sick. Sick to death.

Was I imagining what I heard? Does anyone have a definitive answer to this?

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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yup, check this out:

(It will probably ask you to print, just say no, it will display the page anyway)

Yes, basically, we're opting out of the thing that says we'll abide by international treaties, and then un-signing the treaty. So, we no longer have to play by the rules....

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jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. In that case..
In that case does anyone know if rules of warfare and Geneva Conventions training are any longer a component of basic military training?

Any current military DU members???
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seattlesteph Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. NATO and Kosovo
Because we prosecuted Milosevic as a war criminal, he is being tried at the Hague. Because he is a defendant, we too - Maddy Albright, President Clinton and Wes Clark, among others - testified at the tribunal.

We were tentatively moving towards a compromise on the International Criminal Court. And then Bush came along and removed us completely.

No matter what, no trial is now necessary. The photos and pictures were enough evidence. The administration's lack of apologies, lack of contrition is enough of a self-conviction for all of us to suffer for their arrogance for years.

I'm sure there are legal experts with greater knowledge. But that's the best I can do.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Treaties, agreements, etc., are now null and void.
Only losers(of wars) go before the Hague. Right now, we have the biggest gun on the block, so don't look for any international remedies. The only thing that will stop this run-away train is an international boycott of American goods, but it has to come from a grass-roots movement in Europe and Asia, not their leaders.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. We're not exporting that much. They might boycott the dollar.
Then we're in really big trouble.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You're forgetting two of our biggest exports.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:23 PM by KAZ
Debt and balance of trade. Free money baby.
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Oddman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Rummy claims it wasn't torture
He says it was abuse. "I will not respond to the word torture"

Torture Accomplished
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