A question for Vietnam era DU members

[burythehatchet]

How is this similar or dissimilar to the public sentiment during Vietnam?

My guess is that everything is compressed on the time scale. But other than that can you share some insight regarding the public discourse then and how it compares to now?

Finally, how does the presense of the internet change the dynamic?

Thanks.

[kentuck]

1. Good questions...

I would guess, just from my experience, that sentiment against the Vietnam War was isolated amongst a few young lefties mostly, and that it took several years for the majority of the people to turn against Nixon and the war. I would say that Nixon would not have won in 1972 if the majority of people had been against the war. McGovern led a minority that was ahead of its time, in my opinion.

I think the Internet does change the entire equation. For example, look how fast these torture photos went around the world? I'm certain it would not have taken a year to break the My Lai story if the Internet had been around in 1969....

[burythehatchet]

3. If you dont mind my asking

how old were you during that time? Just to help me gain some perspective. :)

[kentuck]

8. Three times seven.....

:)

[burythehatchet]

11. If you're 21, you have a keen sense of history

I think some of the other comments would support your analysis

[kentuck]

16. I was 21 in '69....

I had just returned from Nam....I became very politically aware. I donated to McGovern campaigns at rock concerts, etc. I knew I was on the right side of history - no matter if 75% thought otherwise....:)

[burythehatchet]

17. AAAHHHHH I see

First of all - Thank you for your service

Second of all - Congratulations for 30 years of Democratic activism.


:thumbsup:


:dem:

[kentuck]

19. You're welcome....

Vietnam misses me... :)

[dbt]

55. Thank Goddess it missed you the first time(s), kentuck!

:toast:
dbt

[kentuck]

61. I was a lucky, naive poor son of Appalachia......

Just doing what my country asked... However, I refuse to be called a part of the country that is now in Iraq. That is not my country.

[whistle]

2. This is far worse...

...but remember Nixon committed crimes to get re-elected then covered it up, but the white house tapes exposed the entire corrupt mess. Here the actions are out in the open, but the whole country has been afraid to come forward and expose it, like what happened in Nazi Germany. The corruption is systemic and deep.

[IndianaGreen]

36. When we "lost" Vietnam, we lost only Vietnam

In Iraq we are losing an entire region of the world that stretches from Morocco to Indonesia.

[diamond14]

4. Iraq is Vietnam in a microwave....it has everything that Vietnam had

and with yesterdays troop escalation and the new BIG MONEY requests to continue bush*'s killing, the whole iraqmire will certainly come to a similar ending....

the impact of the internet....

the internet could be a beautiful tool for organizing and discussion, just like during Vietnam, when I thought the TV would evolve into a beautiful tool for education and knowledge....

instead, the internet has evolved into daily fistfights between different factions and even paid reTHUGlicans brownshirts here on DU, few young people use the internet to attend rallies or get together to elect Kerry....the TV evolved into hitting, screaming and bloody slasher movies, divorce court and other totally innane crap....

for Vietnam, we got together without any TV announcements, simple roto-dial phones, no internet, no faxes...we KNEW that something had to be done, we KNEW in our hearts and minds that we could not allow OUR Government to continue killing....we KNEW that we were the ones that could change it...so we went out and did what had to be done...
all together, with unity of spirit and Patriotism for our country...we STOOD UP and went out in the streets in front of tanks, and guns and soldiers....and put flowers in their barrels even as they shot and killed our compatriots....

and when the war was stopped...we STOOD UP again, and created the Environmental Protection Agency to work toward clean water, clean air, safe pesticides, clean up WWII military wastes, and all good ideas...we pushed for aquiring MORE public lands and changing farming techniques, and planning cities for people, and creating bicycle trails and paths and parks, and 'no cost' but very effective community efforts like 'adopt a highway' and 'river clean-up days'

it was all good, but now we are tired and it is time for us to stop and let the YOUNG people pick up their own ideas and programs....in just the last 10 years, young people have just stood by like slugs while the environmental gains of the past 30 years have been overturned and turned backwards...more cancers are here now, more suffering, more asthma, more ADD...yet young people are real slugs about that...nobody cares...it was young people that cheerful allowed bush* to seize power by cheering on nadar....it wasn't idealism as in my younger days...it was real simple brainwashing and failure to engage brain and STAND UP and work for Gore...

today's young are not STANDING UP...they think wrongly that their solution is just NOT to vote.....I continue to be miffed by the thought behind it, as the draft will soon kick in...more recently, I have become a supporter of the draft, because I feel that it will force our young to participate in government and vote and volunteer in their communities and THINK about America and what needs to be done...and that could easily stop bush*s perpetual war machine.... a draft military would also be a regulating balance to the "VOLUNTEER to KILL and maim" clockwork-orange soldiers currently torturing POWs in Iraq....after protesting the war in DC (6 times), NY (twice) and Chicago....I recently decided to end my street efforts, since the YOUNG people don't care, and my efforts primarily benefit them, and returning to DU, there is always a BIG group of young brownshirts who attack me for STANDING UP....I'm changing to a less stringent effort...my leg still bothers me from being broken when a National Park Police officer hit me with his car on March 23, 2003 right outside the WH....and I am too old now, and tired of fighting for YOUNG potential draftees, who could care less...


'those who refuses to participate in the polical process, will forwever remain governed by their inferiors" (plato)

[burythehatchet]

6. That's a lot to chew on

First thing I take away from your comments is something along the lines "if you don't have to struggle it doesn't seem to worth it", with reference to the youth and their apparent apathy.

Interesting comments regarding the effects of the draft.

[burythehatchet]

13. I believe everything comes and goes in cycles.

I have a 16 y.o. son who is very tuned in. He can't wait to vote and in a school full of fundie teens he does not hesitate to take in a good debate. He's even stood up to teachers who try to intimidate him.

When we need them they will be there. What other choice is there?

[redwitch]

20. the March for Women's Lives inspired me

Lots of young women there- who absolutely understood why they were there. And I know lots of young folk, male and female who opposed this war- I'm talking 15, 16, 17. I am against the draft. As long as idiots are in charge and premptive perpetual war is the order of the day, they will NOT take my sons.

[burythehatchet]

23. I can relate about your sons.

However, it seems that the draft was actually (one of) the catalysts fro changing public opionion.

[diamond14]

27. why didn't those women come to any PRO-Peace marches?

seems that they are very very self-centered for their 'little' personal issues...while the GREATER issues of WAR AND PEACE are totally ignored...BTW, it seems to be totally missed that rape is a most important aspect of war....and if those young women had broader concerns for social issues, they could have easily voiced their morning-after pills and rape victims rights and abortion rights into the bigger anti-war movement...clearly these women chose NOT to address the WAR and PEACE issues...wars fuel the most animosity toward women and raping women is a common war tactic, and abortion and morning after pills were openly dispense in the refugee camps in the recent yugoslavian wars, and the current raping by American soldiers at the Iraq prisons are WAR CRIMES...what a great reason for women to oppose WAR on the bigger stage of WAR AND PEACE public demonstrations...and all those issues were totally ignored...

although I do support any movement to protest bush* policies...it seems that all the 'little' spatting between competing protesting groups have certainly diminished the impact of the message to stop the war and bring PEACE back to our earth...

imagine if that 1,200,000 women march had been more in the context of a WAR protest to protect women reproductive rights, especially the rights of war victims....and it would have come just days before bush*'s HUGE POW sex-torture snuff scandal...really would have made an impact....as it stands now, it is overshadowed totally by the bush* sex-torture scandals...and portrayed as women being very very nacissistic with no concerns about BIGGER issues, just their very own personal stuff....

[redwitch]

28. i think quite a few of them protested the war

and were therefore pro peace. Lots of women all across the country protested along with their brothers and sisters across the world. It didn't stop the war, but they still believe their voices should be raised in protest. Good for them, I say! I don't think women's reproductive rights are a little issue ( personal maybe, but certainly not small).

[diamond14]

34. but it becomes small in the context of WAR and PEACE.....it appears

very selfish.....

and of course, every issue is a big issue if it affects YOU...the bigger society changes happen because everyone makes them happen not for personal gain, but for the gain of the whole community....

for example, the major changes to women's reproductive rights were made during the Vietnam War protests, but were deliberately undertaken using a different tact to avoid overshadowing the major WAR and PEACE effort....that's what made it work....abortion became legal in 1972 and I helped force that change...YOUNG people refuse to read the history or learn from the past, so although they make some effort, it is actually very damaging to all while they argue their righteousness (sort of like nadar supporters who gave us bush*)


Roe happened in the courts, not the streets....during the Vietnam War...today, the 'women' street protests are diminishing the real issue of WAR and PEACE, while ignoring that women's rights are being totally removed by the courts....why not learn from successful activism from the past, reverse the effort...fight in the courts, not in the streets...help the WAR and PEACE protests in the streets by adding the women's issues there (WAR is what degrades women and rape is a war tactic mostly, so is war-brides and child-prostitution)...unity of smaller issues into bigger more societal issues is a winner....fractionating protests into 'little' separate, competing groups just diminishes it all and nobody wins...we all loose...

[HFishbine]

54. One of the problems with the anti-war marches

I attended, was that they were not strictly anti-war or pro-peace. Everybody from anti-WTO, to socialists, to pro-Palestinian groups tried to coopt the message. Maybe that selfishness turned some people off.

[diamond14]

69. 'problems with anti-war marches'???? no problems here PRO-Peace

works for me....from anybody, anytime...PEACE on Earth is always a good idea....


the only people bashing the PRO-PEACE movement are pro-WAR people...those who benefit in some way from being pro-WAR...some try to justify their own service in great STUPID wars...some are potential saps, like Pat Tillman...some want their lazy kids out of their house...some dream that you get a great job and a career out of military service....some are making a living inflaming internet chat boards with the "little" bush* spin...some love war-profiteers....most have never even walked in a March or stood up in any way or walked into a John Kerry office to volunteer...


I am proud to be Pro-Peace....and I don't care who walks with me, be they Palistinians, Middle-Easterners, Catholic nuns, black people, white people, ...everybody.... they are all Americans and PATRIOTS and brave to STAND UP...that they walk WITH me is enough...


come join us...we're Pro-Peace...but if you don't want to join us, please don't spread lies about us....

NYC, March 20, 2004....

[Beam Me Up]

42. I know a lot of really great young people.

I just have to say that. I hear your frustration and share it to some extent but I won't paint with nearly so broad a brush.

Yes, during the Vietnam war and afterward there were many people of the '60s generation' who actively opposed the war and went on to try and live their ideals. However, I was around and I can tell you we always were a minority. For a period of time there was a genuine 'youth' movement in this country but with the ending of the war and the end of the draft its numbers and focus dwindled. Obviously not for everyone, but for many if not most.

I don't know where you are but when I go to protests in San Francisco, I see lots of young people in their 20s--and younger. I know some wonderful young people. One of the things I enjoy about them is that they don't share the prejudices for people my age that I had when I was their age. I honestly didn't trust anyone over 30. But in many instances I am older than these young folks' parents and yet they'll come and sit and talk with me and listen to me rant and rave about what is going down in this country--and become really quite interested. We go to the demonstrations together. We talk about news and economics. I've given them a history lesson about the sixties through movies like "Berkeley in the Sixties, "Weather Underground", and "Guerrilla." They appreciate the fact that I'm interested in hearing what they have to say. At times I can not hide my SHOCK at how little they know about what, to me, are very important moments in our cultural history. But then I have to remind myself that the kind of social intensity that radicalized me in the 60s has yet to develop in this time. It will, of that I'm certain.

In any case, not all young people are as apathetic as you paint them.

[Christ was Socialist]

46. What kind of inane comment is that?

more suffering, more asthma, more ADD...yet young people are real slugs about that...nobody cares...it was young people that cheerful allowed bush* to seize power by cheering on nadar

Heaven forbid they become individuals and vote for whom they see fit, thats actually, kind of democratic. I would expect more of you after the whole McGovern Histrionics. Let the young be. 60% of college voters identify themselves as independants. Finally the two party thrust has a chance to be broken. The dems abandoned them and they acted like adults and took there votes elsewhere. We should be proud.

[JPJones]

47. They can enjoy their freedom to vote for Nader

in Iraq, after the draft is reinstated after Bush's narrow victory in November.

[Christ was Socialist]

49. I suppose Kerry would never bring it back

Let's see he is agaisnt cutting and running, hmm, witht ensions rising we can't reduce size. I believe he wanted to add 40,000 troops. Yes somehow he will magically avoid the draft. If kerry is elected the people of the world will fall over to help us. Let's come back to reality.

[JPJones]

50. This is Democratic Underground, not Bush Enabler Underground

Kerry will be able to turn over the country to Iraqis more easily than Bush. The only reason we are still there is because the neocons want permanent military bases and cheap oil.

[Ugnmoose]

5. One major difference - the draft

I believe there are alot of similarities between Viet Nam and Iraq. The difference in public sentiment is that college aged kids were being drafted left and right in Viet Nam. As a result you have massive civil disobedience demonstrations on many of the major college campuses. I know I participated in one. And the parents of these draft aged young men were also reviled by the thought of sending their sons to die in some god forsaken rice paddy.

Bring back the draft and you will see how fast people's opinions change about this war.

[MarianJack]

10. YES!

My parents had 2 different views of the war at the beginning. (FYI, they divorced in 1962 shortly before my 7th birthday). My mother was ALL for the war when I was 11, 12, 13, 14. When I was 15 & 16 she was starting to have some serious doubts. When I was 17, she said that it was damned well time to get the hell out!

My father was a decorated veteran of both WWII and Korea. He was PASSIONATELY opposed to Vietnam from the word go. His attitude was that he got shot at enough for the whole family. He once told me that he might not even allow me to register for the draft and was putting aside money for my defense, because i was NOT going to go to Canada!

Lucky for me, we stopped sending men to Vietnam around the time I was 17 and my draft lottery # was something like 262, so I'd most likely have never been drafted, especilly as I was in college.

One difference however, was that the news media wasn't so blatently flag waving. There was NOOO way that Johnson or Nixon would EVER have gotten such a big pass as moron did with his little sailor suit stunt on the Lincoln!

[pfitz59]

51. Things really flared in 1968.

RFK. MLK. Tet. Chicago. Things torched in 1970 after Cambodia and Kent State! Vietnam protests took several years to build up. Today with the internet and satellite comms time is being compressed. My guess we're in for some surprises this summer! (Gas at $3.00 a gallon will be a bummer!)

[Christ was Socialist]

52. i hope gas prices skyrocket

Have you seen what the rest of the world pays?

[bobbieinok]

7. there were growing protests on college campuses, 'teach-ins'

1965 was Vietnam summer

1968 things got really intense

there were demonstrations where 'hard hats' beat up protestors

on DU Tues there were discussions about big protests after Kent State

there was always someone on TV saying 'there is light at the end of the tunnel'

some buildings on campuses were blown up - on some campuses students occupied buildings, the college president's office

there were gigantic protests in DC

it all felt like it was going to go on forever

much of anti-war protest was from young people - so it was ridiculed and protestors were called cowards who were afraid to fight

I believed then and believe now that we only got out of Vietnam when the corporations decided it was no longer 'profitable'

(I was in grad school from 61-68)

[burythehatchet]

9. Thank you so much for sharing that

1965 was Vietnam summer

1968 things got really intense


That says a whole lot. Can you imagine what this debate will be like in 2007. I shudder to think about it.

[bobbieinok]

12. and the last soldiers and civilian supporters 'escaped' when???????

flown off the tops of buildings when?????

[Leilani]

15. It was during Ford s Presidency

I forget the year.

[bobbieinok]

21. March 1975

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/saigon/

click on the slide show of the fall of Saigon - the people trying to get to the roof of the US embassy and being flown away

those were haunting pictures of the end

check them out

[burythehatchet]

25. OMG what a powerful sequence.

I was a 10 y.o. immigrant in 1970. So the events of '75 don't even ring a bell. Seeing those photos now is really bringing Iraq home to me. This is going to get really bad, isn't it?

[diamond14]

38. yes, Iraq will be similar at the end...OUR soldiers will flee (PHOTOS)

good morning Vietnam !!! we were saving the Vietnamese and building democracy...we were helping them to live free...we were saving them from communism (saddam)...we would stay until the job was done...we could not leave without honor and dignity....any retreat would affect the whole wide world and communism would take over....the commies would win if we left, so we could not leave...the mighty USA military was defeated by a third world country without a navy or an air force...after 14 years of bringing democracy to Vietnam, we left in the most ignoble manner imaginable...another great STUPID war, just like the current Iraq great STUPID war....killing millions for to enrich war-profiteers and support puppet faux-goverments...



Xuan Loc, South Vietnam. On April 14, 1975, refugees hang on for dear life as they attempt to board a giant Chinook helicopter taking off some 38 miles northeast of Saigon.




Mobs of Vietnamese scale the 14-foot wall of the U.S. Embassy in Saigon trying to get to the helicopter pickup zone.


Evacuees are helped aboard an Air America helicopter perched atop a Saigon building on April 29, 1975. The evacuation site was one of many from which Americans and foreign nationals were evacuated to waiting Navy ships.


U.S. Marines debarked as evacuees loaded into the "Jolly Green Giant" at the U.S. Embassy on April 29, 1975, initiating the final stage of evacuation from Saigon, Vietnam.


An American punches a man in the face as he tries to close the doorway of an airplane overloaded with refugees seeking to flee Nha Trang, which was being taken over by Communist troops in April 1975.



North Vietnamese troops run across the tarmac of Tan Son Nhat air base in Saigon as smoke billows behind abandoned U.S. Air Force transport planes on April 30, 1975.

[burythehatchet]

70. OK, so the question is when.

We all seem to agree on one element and that is the compression of the time line during Vietnam compared with Iraq.

We know the whole thing is unraveling now. (I'll say again that the nexus of all the crap is the energy task force and cheney). So will it take a year, two years, 6 months?

[Leilani]

14. Lyndon Johnson was so unpopular

that he decided not to run in 1968.

My biggest memory is Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?

Nixon was elected in 1968 in a very close election, but was reelected in a landslide in 1972. He had started bringing the troops home, & he got the POWs released.

But it was the draft that made all the difference. But baby boomers were always activists about everything, & todays young people are not like that.

[bobbieinok]

22. and 'Hell no, we won't go'

[Beam Me Up]

45. 2007 is going to be a very different 'debate'

First, you might want to look at a recently published book entitled "1968." I'm reading it (its up on my night stand) but don't have the book in front of me to give you the authors name. Something happened around the world that year that was quite astonishing. Around the world unarmed young people rose up in direct confrontational opposition with the police forces of their societies.

It is something very difficult to imagine happening today. However, I believe that if it does happen (and I believe it may come to that), it won't be only "young" people. As young people in the sixties we felt a very strong "generation gap" between our 'global village' way of thinking about things and the status quo (establishment) way of thinking of our parents' and grand parents' generations.

I keep telling everyone that the situation we're in now is much worse than Vietnam. Much worse, even, than before the second world war. What we are witnessing, I believe, is the beginning of the collapse of United States hegemony in international affairs.

I think it is going to get rough, very rough. We're used to thinking of wars as something that happen somewhere else, somewhere across an ocean. Even after 9/11 for us that still seems mostly true. But that could change.

[burythehatchet]

71. This is where I believe the internet will be the critical tool

over the past couple of years I've seen footage of protests from around the world, I've seen people like Vandana Shive and Arundhati Roy speak to larger audiences, and I believe that the internet has enabled "our" message to be communicated faster and better around the world.

I do feel that when the revolution starts, it will be worldwide.

[diamond14]

18. I attended the U of Michigan when the ROTC building was burned to

the ground....Kent State also burned their ROTC building as did many other campuses...

compare that to the atmosphere on today's campus....where military recruiters are encouraged and get free offices on every college campus in our nation...military recruiting stations are now even in airports at public expense...people love their blood messages....'kick ass...take no names' 'give your blood for freedom'

military exhibits and overflights fill every American parade today, much like nazi Germany and communist Soviet Union parades...

this crap would NEVER have been allowed when I was young...it took many many many years after the ROTC building was torched before the military slowly snuck back into the U of Michigan....sad, real sad...BTW, me and all my college compatriots are currently refusing to give any donations until the campus boots out these military recruiters....sad...the students could certainly get these dangerous people off the campuses overnight if they wanted to STAND UP and stop acting like slugs...

young people even fret themselves over obtain police 'permission' and permits to protest...when the best protest is to take them by surprise rather than pre-announcing EVERY aspect, so the police can be well prepared and injure and beat them...the 'Boston Tea-Party' has no permits...

[yelladawg]

24. It ended

It ended in 1975. I was at the Chicago protests in 68 and in Maimi in 72. Was in Nam 70-71-72. Still have nightmares.

[burythehatchet]

26. I'm sorry.

and thank you.

[diamond14]

29. my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam....he refuse to kill any humans, so they

made him a medic...HM3 Navy Medic...he was KILLED after saving one guy's life, and going back to help another guy...silver star, purple heart, 19 years old DEAD....wasn't even allowed to vote at that time, but old enough to DIE under orders from the Commander-in-chief, POTUS....

He as also an only son, and his father died of grief shortly after....


it still pains me enormously...I grew up with my cousin Charlie, he was a great friendly guy, we played together through childhood, laughed and sang together, he was my friend...he came back as big- bloody-bloated-rotten-pieces of what once a great young man....the wrapped the box in an American flag...he's on Vietnam Wall panel 7E...

Charlie...HM3 Navy medic...sucked into the intake and died for a lie...a real waste...just like Iraq...bush*'s "great STUPID war"


will the YOUNG people STAND UP to stop the killing??

[KoKo]

30. There was much hope that young people could change the world.

That it could be made a better place to end war and beginnings of environmental movement.

Now, there isn't hope. That's the difference I see. And every time hope springs up, it's dashed down. It's very different because the folks who are the age of those who were "active" in the 60's are very cynical today. The 60's folks were overly idealistic. I don't see "idealism" around much today. Except in some here, who still have it from those early days.

JMO...as a short view. A quick observation. Many of us have hashed his over here on DU before, so it gets stale, but I did want to answer you.

[diamond14]

31. just spoke at 5 college campuses in Michigan....although my speeches

were given to the Chemistry and Environmental Science majors, sponsored by the American Chemical Society and the American Water Works Association....I am one of those old idealists...and I ended every speech on a note of hope and idealism, and sprinkled my presentations with ideas and suggestions for changing and improving environmental approaches throughout many ongoing projects today....

So, I remain hopeful that young people will STAND UP....but the longer they wait, the harder it will become to move forward quickly....maybe the draft will have to start to fire these people up...so many my age lived really hard and poverty riddled lives full of suffering, but we climbed out and fought back...there's just little fight in this richest-and-most-spoiled-children-every-born-in-the-world...perhaps they'll need to suffer lots more to get angry enough to STAND UP...afterall, the only good blues songs arises out of suffering....wish it didn't have to be so...but the suffering is coming soon and it's be real rough and real KILLING....


'Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken-winged bird, that cannot fly -----

[Cleita]

32. Vietnam was sneaked upon us.

At first it was military advisers going, like where? Then troops were going there. Finally, they admitted there was a war going on. But what really told us that we were in deep doo doo, was that the young men, our neighbors, our classmates, our boyfriends, our husbands, our sons were going to war. Many died. It was the ones that came back that told us what was really going on.

:wow:

[starroute]

33. We never invaded Vietnam

In Vietnam, we were at least nominally the good guys, trying to keep South Vietnam from being conquered by the oppressive Communist regime to the north. There were flaws in that picture even then, but it never seemed fundamentally false.

As a result, opposition to the Vietnamese War had to turn on other things -- the number of dead Americans, the corruption of the South Vietnamese government, the sense that the Vietnamese didn't really want us there, the perception that America was acting primarily out of imperialist motivations.

In Iraq, there is no possible way to paint us as the good guys. We invaded them on the basis of a set of crude lies. We bombed their cities and shot down their civilians. We rounded up thousands of their young men and tortured and abused them.

Hold Iraq up to the mirror of any of our favorite fictional epics -- Star Wars, or Dune, or The Lord of the Rings -- and it becomes clear that we are the Evil Empire and the Iraqis are the ragtag bunch of freedom fighters who we would normally be cheering.

That is the biggest difference between then and now -- and it is a whopper.

[diamond14]

35. and young people still won't stand up, when it is so obviously wrong

and they could do so much to stop it...the world now belongs to those who are young...and they just sit there and whine...


the biggest difference is that with clear knowledge that America is WRONG...the young people cheer on the war....some idiots become Pat Tillman's...others refuse to even read the news and more refuse to vote....and will NOT march in the streets....

the result is that 'wars will continue until the young stand up to stop it'


us old people are tired out now....especially since there have been virtually zero protests on college campuses, open acceptance of military recruiters on all campuses, acceptance of major military weapon displays and fly-overs in college parades...acceptance of recruiting ads in all colleges newspapers...and few young people in Pro-Peace rallies or even helping in John Kerry's election campaign...and too many people chuckling here on DU everyday, priding themselves in flinging garbage at returning Patriots from street marches, and Kerry campaign workers...not even doing nothing, but actually doing a LOT of negative attacks everyday....

[liarliartieonfire]

37. 40,000 wounded, Medivac out of IRAQ....(Aaron Brown)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1537279
--------------------------------

from my post;
---------------

My Lord!!
Unbelievable!
Oh my, how they cried foul when bush's war in Iraq was first compared to Vietnam..
I recall how many thousands of young soldiers, mostly draftees, were lost and injured too.
The gov't., at that time, ALSO didn't want to reveal the "numbers."

thousands and thousands.
The totals were never made completely known until we, at home, could not protest loud enough to get the attention we deserved, in protest of that war. We did create our own revolution, best we could, peaceful, violent, Kent State;
We marched and shouted and screamed until the thousands and thousands were brought home. Some in coffins, body-parts, wheel chairs, stretchers.

This is too similar for me to barely comprehend. That 30 years later, the lessons have been forgotten by those who HID from that war. GEORGE W BUSH & DICK CHENEY WANTED THIS INVASION.

We had a proud, functioning Nation before Bush & Cheney. We had a military capable of guarding our own borders. We had a balanced budget, and a sound social security system. We had the World's respect.
The party of Bush/Cheney ENRON economics set out to steal from our people and then steal our sons and daughters to shield their way to a foothold into Middle East Oil.

Greed has taken these 40,000 Americans, 800 dead, and thousands of Iraqi innocents. Greed for power stole our United States Government, and George Bush, & Dick Cheney and pals have committed nothing short of TREASON on the United States of America.

There are differences, all well stated in these fine posts. But I have to say, after hearing the numbers of wounded on Aaron Brown..I just did an absolute flashback to the lies told by the American gov't in the days of Vietnam.

Take heed to what we, who lived as young people then, tell you now. You must know that it is as much your American right and duty to speak out about the lies of the invasion of Iraq, by George Bush and Dick Cheney and those who have cheered them on in the bogus name of patriotism. Theirs is certainly NOT patriotism. It is greed for world power paid in blood by innocents.

Thousands and thousands of lives were destroyed in Vietnam before the truth was told.
THIS CANNOT GO ON ANY LONGER.
We need to do our part once again and give a LOUD VOICE to these "numbers." We need to do it now, and continue with the mantra until everyone in this Country can say that "they heard it too". NO More Censorship from the Bush Regime. Its up to us to give voice to this atrocity.

[diamond14]

39. May 5th, rumsfeld announced a gigantic escalation of the Iraq war

with little protest, rumsfeld announce that he would immediately call up another 47,000 troops for Iraq....barely a peep...it was hardly noticed by the upcoming draftees, there is no outrage...

shortly after the troop call-up announcement..bush* announced an call for another $ 25 Billion dollars just to support the additional 47,000 troops...and mentions in the small print that there is no way to even estimate the upcoming costs of the war, that those items were kept separate from the rapidly escalating and out of control pentagoon budgets....that the total war costs for FY 05 would remain secret until after his own re-selection...there was little protest from anyone...not a peep of objection....


the war continues to majorly escalate and no young people are lifting a finger to stop it...rah rah...boom bah...there'll be lots of military weapons displays and flyovers at upcoming graduation ceremonies and the young people will fully embrace it and cheer....


BE THE FIRST ON ONE YOUR BLOCK TO HAVE YOUR BOY COME HOME IN A BOX !

[liarliartieonfire]

40. Exactly! Well said AMEN1234

The daunting task of raising our voices to those too self-involved to hear what we are saying.

Under the threats of Ashcroft and the silence of our Press, the secret warring government carries out its self proclaimed destiny.

I'll be happy to stand up for my freedom, your freedom and that of my elders and children. But will they see someday, as the years go by, that we fought so diligently for the freedom of those that also opposed us and those who gave us no more than a deafened ear.

When we fought for freedom in the years of Vietman, so no more Americans would die in that war, we also included the likes of AWOL George and Dick Cheney. All Americans.

George Bush has made a mockery of all those who fought hard, and some at great cost, to end the Vietnam War.

Bush has never known Patriotism. And I fear there are many Americans today, who do not know it any more than he does.

[ConsAreLiars]

41. Same series of self-contradictory lies "justifying" an invasion and

setting up a puppet regime with the same goal of extending the power of capitalism into an area where corporate domination of the economy was being resisted.

treaty obligations
defending freedom
extending democracy
human rights (they're evil)
stop "them" there or else fight here
"we" are now in the war and have to win
etc., ad nauseum

All bogus - lie after lie after lie, beginning in that case with the Big Lie that "south" Vietnam was a separate country from the north.

We had nothing in the beginning - no media, no progressive organizations, no national politicians (one vote against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution compared to a majority of Dems against Iraq war res)

We had to create these things starting using mimeograph machines, working cooperatively, and eventually getting a vibrant underground press and many working collectives and grassroots orgs and building a movement.

The internet makes communication faster, and we now confront this this stage of imperialist war as a national/international opposition with a LOT of progressive orgs already in place. "They," unfortunately, are also stronger and more tightly organized, and this is becoming a battle to the death, rather than one of many struggles for peace and justice.

(edit: repair work)

[JPJones]

43. The internet has made it much easier for activists

to get porn, as compared with the Vietnam era.

[bobbieinok]

44. ??????? what are you talking about ??????????

[liarliartieonfire]

48. Your post belongs in the Lounge

JPJones:
Sorry

[diamond14]

68. about 90% of the internet is the pornographic industry....it's really

deteriorated quickly in the past five years....just like TV....

for Vietnam, there was just an occasional Playboy magazine, which wasn't even allowed to be displayed publically...had to be kept in brown wrap behind the counter....

just recently, while driving through Michigan on the freeway, coming into Flint from the west....there was a GREAT BIG BILLBOARD with the words:

ADULT SUPERSTORE

and directions to exit and drive there...



we are sin-city here in DC, but at least they keep the GREAT BIG BILLBOARD stuff toned down to give the appearance of civility....

[burythehatchet]

53. I'd like to kick this up for the morning shift

The experiences that many posters have shared are quite informative.

[HFishbine]

56. One difference

Although not directly related to your question about public sentiment and certainly not to contradict any of the thoughtful posts already made, but there remains a big difference between Vietnam and Iraq, one I'm thankful for. The North Vietnamese were being supported with arms by other communist nations. While the NV utilized ambushes and guerilla tactics, there were also better able to take on US forces head on. All that the Iraqi resistance has is guerilla tactics at its disposal. Can you imagine how much worse things would be if Iraq was being supplied by China?

[burythehatchet]

58. You raise an excellent point

Since I can't draw on personal experience during Vietnam I would ask the question what did the world say and do about our actions in SE Asia? My point is that since there is no (apparent) supplier or backer in Iraq, this creates more of a sense of outrage in world opinion. i.e., big bully beating up on the little guy. So while many may have realized that Vietnam was a proxy war, they may see Iraq as a war of choice and a war to control resources. In my mind this creates a far more dangerous set of circumstances.

[HFishbine]

59. You may well be correct

In the Vietnam war, there was indeed the widely held belief that there were philisophical/political differences worth fighting for. Much of the Western world and some of Asia bought that for a long time. In Iraq however, very few are buying in Bush's shame that this is a war on terror.

[Hubert Flottz]

57. You tell me!

Eve Of Destruction

Barry McGuire




The eastern world, it is explodin'.
Violence flarin, bullets loadin'
Youre old enough to kill, but not for votin'
You dont believe in war, but what's that gun youre totin'
And even the Jordan River has bodies floatin

But you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you dont believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

Don't you understand what Im tryin' to say
Cant you feel the fears Im feelin' today?
If the button is pushed, theres no runnin' away
There'll be no one to save, with the world in a grave
Take a look around you boy
It's bound to scare you boy

And you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

Yeah, my bloods so mad feels like coagulatin'
Im sitting here just contemplatin'
You can't twist the truth, it knows no regulation.
Handful of senators don't pass legislation
And marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin'
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'

And you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction.

Think of all the hate there is in Red China
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama
You may leave here for 4 days in space
But when you return, it's the same old place
The poundin' of the drum, the pride and disgrace
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace
Hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace

And tell me over and over and over and over again, my friend
You don't believe
We're on the eve
Of destruction
Mm, no no, you don't believe
We're on the eve
of destruction

[drfemoe]

60. The folks who protested that war are 30 years older now ...at least

In 1974 when Nixon resigned, we watched with my parents.
As his speech was coming on, they expressed their *fear* that he would REFUSE to resign.
They were afraid of the same thing then, that we are now . . .
They were republicans . . .

Watergate followed on the heels of VN. Scandalous war, scandalous whouse. I dunno. See any comparisons?

Oh yeah .. and the vets had PTSD .. only it wasn't called PTSD. It was called, sleeping with one eye open.

[Merlin]

62. Right now -- TODAY -- we've hit The Tipping Point, ala the Tet Offensive

I may be wrong but everything about the news today suggests that the gathering storm has finally burst open in a big way, culminating in todays WaPo editorial and Friedman column and the release of more photos and the polls showing the public has turned decisively against Iraq and perhaps Bush too.

Not only that, but it comes at a time when the Bush campaign is running tired, old, sarcastic, divisive attack ads on Kerry; ads which are consistent with the bullying image of this entire administration.

Meanwhile, as Bush is in the process of defeating himself, and countless thousands of average Americans are beginning to think about an alternative, Kerry is running introductory ads portraying himself as a fresh face, a war hero, a family man, and a dedicated public servant.

For the first time in 3-1/2 long years, I'm starting to feel good again!

[burythehatchet]

66. Thanks Merlin

I share your sentiments. Kerry is not who I wanted in the primary but that is so irrelevent to me now.

I feel we're at a tipping point as well. Joe Wilson intimated that something big was going to come out very soon. I think its a video of a young boy being raped. According to Hersh this video exists.

I'm having trouble getting my arms around the fact that it took years in the 60's and 70's for opinions and actions to coalesce around a few common objectives. I can't even imagine it.

[mopaul]

63. DREAD hangs in the air like a Doors song

fear and uncertainty are thick and the anger and polarization is EXTREMELY similar to the crazy 60's. it feels like deja vu.

[Beam Me Up]

65. I agree it is like the Sixties in certain respects---

---the 'intensity' of the situation. But there are also a lot of big differences. The Sixties had an overall sense of optimism about them--we felt we COULD change the world. Few believe that these days (while far from Mr. Pollyanna, I remain an optimist despite the evidence). 1968 gave us a false sense that we were living in a revolutionary situation. Well, it was 'revolutionary' in a social sense, but not in the sense of changing the underlying systems of capitalist and socialist society. I think we may be HEADED for conditions that could spark a genuine revolution. Unfortunately (and that is a way-understatement) those conditions may not fully arise until the fascist neo-cons have dissolved all pretenses of democracy.

The bottom line is the 'powers that be' only have the powers that we acquiesce. Problem is, most people don't 'get' that. I feel we are headed for major social upheaval -- all the signs I see are pointing to it. In fact, I sometimes think that is what the 'PTB' want--an excuse to legitimize overt oppression right here at home. The ifrastructures are already in place.

[diamond14]

67. some say the YOUNG will not stand up until the entire middle

class is destroyed by bush*....

yes, and the structures and system for the draft is already in place, as you note....

here in DC, I'm listening to radio-interview of a George Washington University Law professor, who is opining the incarcerations NOW of over 5000 people by asscroft...with no lawyers, no charges, no phone calls, no court appearances....

worse, of the 5000 PUT IN UNKNOWN PRISONS since 9/11, only ONE has been convicted of a crime (and the professor said it was a very very 'cloudy conviction' because asscroft had withheld documents showing that the main witness had previous convictions for LYING in courts)....the others haven't even been charged, nobody knows where they are being held, two that were charged were totally innocent and released...

today's young people will be enjoying themselves in the next few weeks, with graduation ceremonies exhibiting war weapons in parades and war jet overflies...and not even raise a peep....bush* and his minions are already pumping out their war rhetoric at graduation ceremonies....

they will go like sheep to the slaughter in Iraq...not a peep...

In 1971, the graduation ceremonies at U of Michigan were disrupted by smoke bombs in the aisles (which evacuated the auditorium)...and protestors outside....I didn't even go to my own graduation (guess what YOUNG people, you can protest by just not going, and still get your diploma and transcript in the mail)....brave American Patriots walked out of the ceremonies, or just didn't partipate....NO POLITICIAN was allowed to speak to spew their war rhetoric....it would surprise me if nixon spoke at any University (except maybe bob jones racist U)...because nixon wasn't welcome...yet bush* shows up on college campuses and the young smile and cheer....

[keithyboy]

64. The real shame of Viet Nam is that we are now allies.

Getting all those Americans and Vietnamese killed in the name of stopping Communism was the tragedy. Communism was never a 'threat' but a competitor...something the greedy capitalists can't stand. But in the aftermath, what danger does the Communist unified Viet Nam pose to us? None! It just wasn't worth it and neither is this war in Iraq.