Fidel Castro on Homosexuality

[Christ was Socialist]

http://www.ratb.org.uk/html/cspeaks/index.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many misunderstandings and lies spread about Cuba on the issue of homosexuality. Therefore it is worth noting what Fidel Castro said in his interview with the Nicaraguan Tomás Borge in 1992.

From Face to face with Fidel Castro

Tomás Borge: Many people think that there is sexual discrimination in Cuba. What are your views on homosexuality?

Fidel Castro: I don't consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration. I've always had a more rational approach, considering it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected. That's how I view it... I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn or discrimination with regard to homosexuals. That's what I think.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty much sums it up. I guess we could learn a thing or two as usual.

[dsc]

1. You are kidding, right?

At the time of that interview and for several years before and after, Castro has been locking up AIDS patients in sanatariums against their will. Yes, they appeared to be well apportioned prisons but prisons nonetheless.

[Christ was Socialist]

3. They are Sanitoriums

we do the same here to the mentally ill.

http://www.dsp.org.au/dsp/Cuba_alt/part1.htm
--------snip

II. Cuban HIV/AIDS care leads the world
By Karen Lee Wald





HAVANA — On August 13, Reynaldo Morales, aged 42, died of AIDS. Reynaldo wasn't the first but his story is worth telling because it is an allegory of the progression of HIV/AIDS care in Cuba.

When Reynaldo Morales returned from military service as an international volunteer in Angola in early 1986, he was part of the first group of 23 patients who opened the new AIDS sanatorium in Santiago de las Vegas.

In 1989 he and his wife, Maria Julia, (who also became infected) were the first patients at the sanatorium to be offered the option of returning to their home and jobs as out-patients. A few months later they were the first of many to turn this option down.

[dsc]

6. No we don't

The vast, overwhelming majority of the mentally ill are not in mental institutions. Maybe before 1981 your claim would have had some merit but probably not. Now, one has to be a proven danger to themselves or others or else they don't go near an institution. It is actually incredibly difficult to get treatment for mentally ill people due to insurance companies and the like.

[Ladyhawk]

45. You are correct.

They 51/50 you then send you out the door in three days, even if you're still mentally fucked.

[Zinfandel]

4. What in the fuck are you talking about? Do you believe only gay people

have AIDS? You should be pointing the finger at the treatment of AIDS victims (if that indeed is what your anger is about)...NOT associating all AIDS victims strictly as homosexuals, as your post implys.

[dsc]

5. They certainly aren't only gays

but in both this country and Cuba AIDS and homosexuality have become very intertwined as issues. It is perfectly legit to judge mistreatement of AIDS patients as mistreatment of homosexuals.

[Zinfandel]

9. And then of course you could be wrong, and they are seen as two

separate issues by any intelligent thinking, caring progressive person, as the statement by Castro appears to be.

And from others less enlightened, that do no research of their own, and lump all AIDS victims together...As the religious right, republicans and the Bush fascist love to do...devide & conquer has always been their strategy and a way to use "morality" and their narrow minded agenda to control people.

[dsc]

11. Given the percentage of gays who got AIDS

it became a gay issue. That happens when you burry your friends and get tests every other month for several years. The fact is when you mistreat AIDS victims you are in fact mistreating a lot of gays.

[Toucano]

13. What percentage of gays got AIDS? n/t

[dsc]

21. Here is one answer

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/YGMtext.html

Unfortunately, yes. Accumulating research shows alarmingly high HIV prevalence rates among young gay men and high rates of sexual risk-taking, suggesting that young gay men in their 20's are forging a "second wave" of the AIDS epidemic. During the 1980s, the median age at HIV infection was older than 30 years. It dropped to 25 years during the period from 1987 to 1991. From 1987 to 1991, one in every four newly infected individuals in the US was age 22 or under.(1)

A recent study of 425 gay men aged 18-29 in San Francisco, CA found that 18% were already infected with HIV, with a seroincidence rate of 2.6% per year: among the 27-29 year olds, 29% were HIV+.(2) Another study which sampled young gay men aged 17-22 from public venues such as bars, street corners, dance clubs and parks found 9% of the men to be HIV positive.(3) Young African-American men were found to have especially high HIV seroprevalence (21%). A study of gay men aged 18-24 in New York City found 9% HIV positive.(4)

end of quote

And another one

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hiv_and_aids/basics/faq/stats4.html

Exposure Category Male Female Total*
Men who have sex with men 361,867 - 361,867
Injecting Drug Use 142,888 54,203 197,091
Men who have sex with men and inject drugs 50,066 - 50,066
Hemophilia/coagulation disorder 4,949 285 5,234
Heterosexual contact 30,956 54,782 85,738
Recipient of blood transfusion, blood components, or tissue 5,031 3,863 8,894
Risk not reported or identified 53,429 21,712 75,142


And remember this is after the first wave has largely died off and with all the education efforts. Even now this represents a reasoably significant total of gay men. Assuming 5% of men are gay, the total number of gay men is 0.05* 125 million. That yields 7.25 million men. Of those over 500,000 have HIV. That is around 7%.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

17. In the early days of the revolution...

....they actually had special detention camps for homosexuals, and used them for forced labor to cut sugarcane.

I guess Castro has moderated his views on the subject since those days.

There is also a good movie on the topic, Before Night Falls, on the experience of a gay Cuban poet...sort of a docudrama.
http://www.finelinefeatures.com/sites/bnfalls/check_flash.html

[Christ was Socialist]

20. Come on now

That was in the late fifties/early sixties. Homosexuality was a crime and a metal illness in the us until 71' i believe. In england homosexuals were subject to mandatory castration, to make them a sexual

[mrfrapp]

52. I've never heard of that

"In england homosexuals were subject to mandatory castration, to make them a sexual"

What period are you talking about? I've never heard of this.

[Political_Junkie]

2. There is much we can learn from his words.

Some of his actions, however, seem quite paranoid. Although, I think I would be a bit paranoid myself after all those years spent with the U.S. Government breathing down my neck.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

7. Did he change then? Because in the eighties, I worked with

some guys who had been sent over on the boatlift and they had been put in prison and persecuted terribly for nothing but being gay. They were super nice guys too.

[dsc]

10. I had actually forgotten about that

While much of the boatlift people were real criminals you also had a fair share of political prisoners and homosexuals who had done nothing wrong.

[Toucano]

15. He hasn't changed.

The difference between what Castro says and what he does is vast.

[dansker]

8. Before Night Falls

Interesting, but I struggle to make sense of this after watching the film 'Before Night Falls.' Did Castro convert into a pro-gay stance?

[dsc]

12. I had meant to see that movie

and again, another example.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

18. I suspect they are moderating their position...

...in this I guess they are following the trend towards tolerance in the rest of the world, or at least in Europe.

[bigbillhaywood]

34. Welcome to DU dansker.

[ShaneGR]

14. Unless you disagree with my political party

Then I put you in prison for decades or a bullet in the back of your head. Gay or straight.

[Christ was Socialist]

16. Homophobia and gay rights in Cuba

here is a report

http://www.dsp.org.au/dsp/Cuba_alt/part1.htm

snippet----------
Since 1986, the Cuban state has consciously tried to counter homophobia. Ian Lumsden, in his book Machos, Maricones and Gays, says there is "little evidence to support the contention that the persecution of homosexuals remains a matter of state policy".

In 1993, a sex education workshop was held in Cuba on homosexuality. Cuban physician Celestino Alvarez explained that all laws regarding homosexuality had been repealed and that homophobia was a question of "prejudice, not persecution".

In 1993, Strawberry and Chocolate, a film criticising Cubans' intolerance of homosexuality, was produced by the government-run Cuban film industry (which can only afford to produce three or four films a year). In 1995, Cuban drag queens led the annual May Day procession, joined by two queer delegations from the US, one from the New York Center for Cuban Studies and the other from Bay Area Queers for Cuba.

The US activists joined with members of Cuba's Action Group for the Liberation of Sexual Choice and Expression to carry a 10-metre piece of the rainbow flag from the June 1994 Stonewall celebration in New York. They were cheered by Cubans who lined the streets.

The improvement in Cubans' attitudes to homosexuality are documented in the 1995 film Gay Cuba, which combines interviews with gay men and lesbians, government officials and average citizens, with musical performances and gay pride parades. The interviews, which form the core of the film, show that the changes in government policy and the opening of channels for the discussion and celebration of different sexualities have allowed gay Cubans today to lead much more open lives.

[noiretextatique]

19. far more enlightened than the current US regime

does anyone disagree with that statement?

[WoodrowFan]

22. yep

bush and Castro are both thugs who have no respect for democracy or human rights, despite the fervent wishes of a few deluded lefties. Only Cuba actually uses force against dissidents to a degree that the freepers still only aspire to match.

Amnesty International on Cuba.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/cuba/document.do?id=1B95A6239421DF2680256D2400379150

[noiretextatique]

23. bush isn't a homophobe?

:shrug: could have fooled me. i must have imagined all the talk about that constitutional amendment to prevent gays from marrying :eyes:

[ButterflyBlood]

28. where did he say * wasn't a homophobe?

he simply said Castro was no better.

and I am generally supportive of Castro. However I strongly dislike strawmen and putting words in one's mouth.

[noiretextatique]

33. well, castro doesn't sound like a homophobe in that interview

so...the notion that bush and castro ARE THE SAME...is bullshit, as i said.

[Judi Lynn]

24. It would be helpful if you would provide a link

to articles on Cuba's using force against political dissidents.

There are a lot of DU'ers who are interested in Cuban matters who would definitely like to know more about this.

A link concerning force against Cuban dissidents would be helpful.

[Christ was Socialist]

27. American Propaganda

of course the poster leaves out the full story

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2003/535/535p21.htm


--------------snip--------------
Perez exhibited vouchers of monies received last year from the US by several illegal organisations in Cuba. The Centre for a Free Cuba received US$2.3 million. The Task Force for the Internal Dissidency received US$250,000. The Program for Transition in Cuba, headed by Frank Calzon, received $325,000. Support Group for the Dissidency received $1.2 million from the International Republican Institute. Cubanet, an internet magazine, received $98,000 and the American Centre for International Labor Solidarity, whose mission is to persuade foreign investors not to invest in Cuba, received $168,575.

On March 18, Cuban police began charging those involved in the US-funded dissident network. They were charged under a number of different articles in the Cuban penal code and subsequently sentenced to between 15 and 27 years imprisonment.

Article 5.1 of the penal code, under which many of those arrested were charged, states that any Cuban citizen “who seeks out information to be used in the application of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the economic war against our people aimed at disrupting internal order, destabilising the country and liquidating the socialist state and the independence of Cuba, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

Article 6.1 states that any Cuban citizen “who gathers, reproduces, disseminates subversive material from the government of the United States of America, its agencies, representative bodies, officials or any foreign entity to support the objectives of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the war, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

[noiretextatique]

25. bullshit...

bush, inc stole an election BY FORCE.

[Christ was Socialist]

26. Prove it

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/443/443p16.htm


-----snip


After more than 40 years of a genocidal blockade and an economic war, invasions, terrorist acts, subversive attempts, sabotage, assassination plots against Cuban leaders, biological warfare and many other acts of aggression, the Commission on Human Rights is the most recent battlefield between the Washington's oppressive design against Cuba and our desires for independence, justice and development.

I am not going to spend any time explaining the Cuban reality and proving the unfair, selective nature of the US accusations. There is really no need. You know it, whether you recognise it or not. I will just say that the United States is the country with the least moral authority to judge Cuba over human rights and democracy issues.

I cannot help asking: Has anyone ever seen the police in Cuba beating up the workers or the students during a demonstration, shooting rubber bullets at them, sicking dogs or horses on them, throwing tear gas at them — as it happens on a daily basis in quite a few places of the world today? You know that in Cuba leaders demonstrate alongside the people.

Even the recent report of the US State Department on the human rights situation around the world — which, of course, I do not view as legitimate and in which, as we know, the only country that is not included is the US itself — recognises that there are no politically motivated deaths or missing people in Cuba. Despite their deep-rooted hatred against our country, their obsession to condemn us and their lack of scruples, the United States has not dared to lie, at least, in this respect. So transparent and humane is our record, that it is impossible to deny it!

Can anybody in this hall mention a single case of torture, murder or disappearance in Cuba? Does anyone in this hall know of a single case of journalists assassinated in Cuba, or of the kidnapping of children — other than the failed attempt to retain a Cuban child in the United States — or the sale of children, or child slavery?

Has anyone ever heard of a death squad in Cuba? Has anyone seen in Cuba a demonstration of mothers and grandmothers crying out for their murdered or missing children and grandchildren? Has any one of you heard that the Cuban government, by deceiving its people, has imposed an IMF adjustment program or given the country's riches away to transnational corporations?

[Judi Lynn]

31. Death squads in Cuba? You bet! Before the revolution!

I never learned about this until I started reading for myself. I learned there were death squads who prowled the streets, that there were suspected leftists, students, etc. who were grabbed, tortured, sometimes killed, sometimes hung from lampposts, and in a case in Santiago de Cuba, were hung in pieces in trees.

The mothers of that town turned out to protest and were hosed down with fire hoses for their efforts. The U.S. Ambassador was visiting in Santiago de Cuba during the day they were hosed, and photos were taken of the event.

Also Fulgencio Batista cancelled elections, and censored the papers. For a time, he also had magazines and papers from outside blacked censored as well.

Some memories remain of the events before the revolution and many of them have been charged against the post revolutionary Cuba, and bought hook, line, and sinker by people who don't know any better, leaving only those who were there to know the difference with the exception of Americans willing to do research, or at least pay attention!

Maybe some DU'ers have read or heard about Rolando Masferrer, a Cuban Senator, newspaper publisher, and organizer and operator of "Masferrer's Tigers," his own death squad creeps.

When he realized the Revolution was real, he ran off and hid in Miami, where he lived for a while before he was killed in inter-exile hostilities by a car bomb.

If anyone wants to blow smoke about an imagined environment of hostility toward gays/lesbians in Cuba, he should try to learn more about the Miami Cuban "exiles" and their behavior every time moves are made to create legislation geared to mainstream gay/lesbian relationships in Florida. They go absolutely psychotic in South Florida. They should start doing internet searches for some real heavy reading.

Here's an article which could really serve as food for thought for people wanting to mull over how Cuban-Americans treat the subject of gay rights:

(snip)
On Sunday, September 3, the couple, having spent the early morning campaigning for Love, drove to church in their recreational vehicle, which had several large “Jay Love for Mayor” signs affixed to it. Buonamia says he warned Father Hopkins that he would be driving the RV, and the priest said it would be fine. Buonamia parked in the rear of the church parking lot. “I was trying to obscure it as much as possible,” he says. “We knew it wasn't Love territory, but it never dawned on me that people would get physical over this.”

Soon after arriving, Marisa Buonamia was accosted inside the church by Eladio Armesto-Garcia, a former Republican state representative, who served in Tallahassee from 1992 until 1994. He told her to move the RV immediately. She refused. “I told him: “This is a democracy,'” recalls Marisa, who hails from Panama. Next Armesto-Garcia confronted Buonamia.

“He was very agitated,” Buonamia remembers. “He starts screaming at me in Spanish that Jay Love is a homosexual and that I'm supporting homosexuals and that I have to get my RV out of there. I told him it is not important to me what he thinks. I'm here to go to Mass, and I asked him to leave me alone. He then screamed at me in church that he was going to beat the shit out of me when Mass was over.”

Armesto-Garcia is a member of the Christian Coalition and chairman of a group called Take Back Miami-Dade, whose goal is to repeal the so-called gay-rights ordinance passed by the county commission two years ago. The ordinance, which is designed to protect individuals from discrimination based on sexual orientation, was enacted through the efforts of the nonprofit SAVE Dade political-action committee.
(continued.....)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-09-21/defede.html/1/index.html

Doing a search on "Eladio Armesto-Garcia" or his sister will provide a lot of reading. He got in trouble a couple of years ago for falsifying petitions when he and his sister were trying to pull a fast one, AGAIN during another election in South Florida.

He is NOT a rare exception in that crowd, by any means. People who want to throw stones at Cuba need to take a long hard look at the ACTIONS of both groups of Cubans: Cuba AND ALSO MIAMI, and maybe the true picture will FINALLY DAWN ON YOU.

Americans are starting to wake up about the Cuba issue, and moderate people are completely behind the very things the majority in both our House of Representatives and our own Senate vote on year after year: ending the embargo, removing the travel ban.

This may finally be the year the House and Senate achieve the VETO PROOF majority vote needed to ditch both these 45 year old outrages.

Thanks, again, Christ Was Socialist.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As an afterthought, I'm adding a small, but signicant group of numbers:

By the late 1950’s, American capital control:
90% of Cuba’s mines
80% of its public utilities
50% of its railways
40% of its sugar production
25% of its bank deposits
(snip)

Terrence Cannon writes:
"The U.S. did not send in the marines for one basic reason: it did not fear the Revolution. It was inconceivable to the U.S. policy makers that a revolution in Cuba could turn out badly for them. After all, U.S. companies owned the country."

It is estimated that by the end of 1958, 11,500 Cuban women earn their living as prostitutes.

Women comprise 14.8% of the Cuban work force.
(snip/)

(This was at the time of the revolution in Cuba)
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/time/timetbl3.htm

[bigbillhaywood]

32. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

[bigbillhaywood]

30. Okay, lets assume Castro is everything you say he is,

Even so, are you willing to argue that the lives of everyday Cubans are worse than they were before the Revolution? Are you willing to argue that the lives of people elsewhere in the Carribean and Latin America are better than those in Cuba? And what would be your solution? Full-scale capitalist counterrevolution? Just let the US corporations waltz back in and start exploiting Cuba again? Dismantle Cuba's social protections, their universal education and health care system? Because in today's environment, if Castro were overthrown tomorrow by forces backed by the fascist Miami ex-pats, that is EXACTLY what would happen. Look at the anti-Castro Cubans in America-- 90% are right-wing Republicans. Better a domestic thug with some social protections for his people, than another fascist US puppet in my book.

[bigbillhaywood]

29. The myth of homosexual oppression in Cuba is

counterrevolutionary propoganda. Now I don't think the Cuban system is perfect like some commies do, but homosexuals are treated no worse in Cuba than in most industrialized nations, and the people disseminating this information have an agenda to destroy the Cuban workers' state-- gay liberation is at best a tangental goal for them.

[durutti]

44. Workers' State?

The Cuban Revolution was led by peasants.

[Dirk39]

35. relaxed, not more tolerant...

The following link is an interview by Eduardo Jimanez Garcia, which first appeared in Alma Mater, the journal of the University of Havana, Mariela Castro Espin, the director of the Cuban National Institute for Sex Education (CENESEX), advocates an amendment to the Cuban constitution to add homosexuality to the groups against which discrimination is expressly outlawed.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/573/573p24.htm


I'd say this is a progressive government, trying to fight against discrimination still common in Cuba, instead of using and amplifying it like the Bush-Regime in that still not liberated country on the other side of the Atlantic.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Christ was Socialist]

36. unlike here

the government is banning discrimination. It's the fact that there is such a historical influence from the catholic church. And many people live in family units for economic reasons. Unlike here the government amendament is to stop discrimination. remember when the usa did that?last time we tried it failed (E.R.A. 1985)

[noiretextatique]

41. you got that right...our government is practicing, supporting

and condoning discrimination.

[Christ was Socialist]

61. which is why the media

must project an image of An evil cuba, because if they show how things work, people might want change here.

[bigbillhaywood]

37. Nice Friedman quote, Dirk. Do you have a link or reference to the text

its from? I only know one German phrase some German kids taught me, but I'd probably get banned from DU if I used it.

[Dirk39]

38. Newsletter of the Mont Pèlerin Society 1990

Please don't do a resarch on the "Mont Pèlerin Society"!

“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business.”
That's not Milton Friedman,
Dirk

[bigbillhaywood]

39. Thanks, but....

"Please don't do a resarch on the "Mont Pèlerin Society"!"

Why not?

[Dirk39]

40. I just didn't want to spoil your weekend....

In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.
Karl Marx

[bigbillhaywood]

42. Weekend's over Deutschland, besides it was pretty much spoiled for

me Saturday night already.

[bigbillhaywood]

43. And thanks for the Marx quote, got to use it on another thread. nt.

[booley]

46. I think soem fo you are missing the rather obviouse

for one..Has anyone considered that Castro may LIE?! That since he's a bit miffed about US policy towards the US, that since it's hardly a secret that the US attitude towards gay people has been less then exemplary, that he may try to make himself look good to people in the US upset about this?

So naturally the US likes ot spread bad info about Cuba and Cuba tries to make itself better then the US portrays it.

I think the worst I saw was this contant bandying about fo what Castro's enemies thought about homosexuality, as if that had any bearing on what Castro feels.
What? IF Shrub or miami cubans don't like gay people then Castro must like gay people?
Thats the same kind of fuzzy non-logic that had freepers saying that Saddam and Binladin must be cooperating becuase they both hated the US.

[noiretextatique]

47. this is a 1992 interview...

and i do think what life was like for homosexuals in cuba before the revolution is relevant. it's as relevant as the differences between bush and clinton.

[booley]

50. uhhh, it's still irrelvant..

Firstly, castro has been saying stuff liek this since at least the 70s. Possibly longer. A large segement of the gay left bought it and it took years before they figured out they had been snookered.

And NO, it's not relevant how Castro's enemies feel about gays becuase just becuase you are hinging your arguement on a logical fallacy..that if Castro's enemies hate gays..then Castro must like gays.
Ther eis no reason for that to be so. And you need more then a speech to prove that the persecution of the cuban gays in the 60 and 70s didn't happen. if a speech was a determiner of truth, then Shrub would be pro-environment and a hate war. (gee, he isn't.is he? but he says he is)

It's great if the environment for gays in Cuba has improved (though there merely being a gay culture doesn't mean anything... even in the 1950s America there was an open gay culture..) but that doesn't mean that this is becuase of government policy or endorsed by Castro.

In other words, when Cuba actually does have a law banning discrimination against gay people and ENFORCES it, talk to me then.

Becuase Shrub is hardly the only guy that knows how to spin...

[Mika]

69. Then every prez is responsible for all discrimination in the US by all

Not just Castro then, all prior presidents have spun the positive and hid the negatives of their country.

If we were to use the same propaganda yardstick then when some NY cops or Miami cops (for example) commit some heinous crime, instead of referring to them as NYPD cops or Miami PD cops we should rightly call them Clinton's goons or Bush's goons or whomever is the POTUS's goons, and that the POTUS is responsible for all acts committed by all people within the country. And if they talk about the legal gains that have been made regarding anti discrimination laws they should be excoriated as liars. Right?

[Christ was Socialist]

70. I noticed

you dobn't hear about mass murder from cuba, and no torture claims have been verified.

[Christ was Socialist]

65. not to mention he had his hands tied

by the ignorance of the people. The catholic church has deep roots there. And the family unit is popular for economic reasons.

[Quetzal]

48. Let me share some secondhand knowledge

I had a Spanish Professor who visited the Cuban Prisons a few decades ago. She said that there were indeed a sizable amount of homosexuals but that things have improved over the years in Cuba.

That is all I have to share. Carry On.

[Iceburg]

49. A first hand account ...

I've been to Cuba 4 times, the last time bring in 2002. I have also been to Britain, Germany, Holland, France, Spain, Ghana, South Africa, Nigeria, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Antigua, Montserrat (sadly now under ash) and many but not all American states. As an openly gay woman, Cuba is the most vibrant, friendly, open and intellectually curious place on the planet.

For the anti-Castro propagandists:

Find me one piece of Cuban legislation that discriminates against homosexuals.

That should keep the idle/addled minds busy ... 'cause there isn't any.

Another first-hand (albeit not mine) account (2001)
http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg23270.html

[Judi Lynn]

51. Superior post, Iceburg.

We couldn't do better than to get a first-hand account.

By the way, how would you rate Cuba against the other Caribbean islands you visited? I'll bet it was a little more organized and industrious, as well as more interesting.

I've been on message boards where visitors to Central and South America have stated that there is, as you mentioned, a liveliness, a spiritual quality there which is simply missing in other small Latin American countries altogether.

One more thing: I've heard from other Cuba travellers that the terrifying "police state" policemen you see walking around in Cuba don't even have guns. I find that interesting, for sure.

[Iceburg]

54. In response to your questions Judilyn --

By the way, how would you rate Cuba against the other Caribbean islands you visited?
Cuba leads all other Caribbean countries by orders of magnitude -- education, healthcare, industry, agriculture, science, culture, safety et al. Cuba lead because it had to -- in the face of the American embargos. In contrast, the other Caribbean nations have been followers and recipients of "care" provided by Britain, US and France.

...a liveliness, a spiritual quality ...
It's a confidence and pride in their achievements ... never to be mistaken for arrogance. Rather than "spiritual" I was use the term "philosophical" as it is not blind faith but a supreme education that affords them a broader and deeper understanding of humanity.

I've heard from other Cuba travellers that the terrifying "police state" policemen you see walking around in Cuba don't even have guns.
I have to say the only place I saw guns was at the airport and have I cycled all over the place. As a point of comparison, I've been to Virginia/Maryland/Blue Ridge area twice on week long cycling trips --3 times my group was pulled over by troopers (with guns) , we were harrassed and honked at by countless locals for "using the roads".

You choose ...[/h2}

[Judi Lynn]

56. Thanks for your great comments.

It has been funny reading remarks from people on message boards who insist that Americans are kept from seeing the "real Cuba" and have to stay in strictly tourist areas, and NEVER get to speak to the Cuban citizens, who are desperately afraid to talk to them and run the risk of getting in trouble with the government.

These propagandameisters claim that the citizens MUST be petrified to talk against their government because they never have anything wild to say against Fidel Castro, etc.

On the other hand, people who have actually been there, and who, like you, go ALL OVER the place, from West to East, North to South, actually indicate the people talk about a variety of things, including their government.

Something to think about is that it would actually be a crude, dimwitted traveller to approach citizens in a country he's visiting and start pumping them about their poltical views, anyway. If anyone was reserved in that situation, who the hell would blame them? Geez.

Here's my favorite photo of all time with Cuban subjects which I found somewhere bumbling around on the Internet:



Woooo HOOOOOOO! Yay.

Finally, experience shows when listening to views on Cuba. Those who have NEVER read anything printed outside Miami, or by our own rightwing propaganda spewers, those who have NEVER been to Cuba, nor even sat down and did any serious thinking about it are ALWAYS the ones with the most raucus, name-calling, patriotism questioning posts.

Interesting.

[Iceburg]

57. Those who have NEVER read anything printed outside Miami

Those who have NEVER read anything printed outside Miami, or by our own rightwing propaganda spewers, those who have NEVER been to Cuba, nor even sat down and did any serious thinking about it are ALWAYS the ones with the most raucus, name-calling, patriotism questioning posts.

Unfortunately, "Those" are multiplying at an alarming rate. I suppose it has much to do with the lack of affordable education in America.

Meanwhile back in Canada, we will continue the friendship with Cuba that our dearly beloved former prime minister Trudeau made possible.
Trudeau died in Sep 2000, but his spirit lives on in most Canadians.

Former Prime Minister Trudeau, his wife Margaret and their first born --Justin held by Castro.


Prime Minister Trudeau's funeral - Fidel Castro (honourary paul bearer), Justin and Margaret Trudeau



http://www.nctimes.net/news/100400/w.html

[robcon]

53. If you think Cuban LEGISLATION is the issue, Iceburg...

you miss the point. In a dictatorship, it's only the will of the dictator that matters. You are burying your head in the sand, if you think Castro has ever needed legislation to discriminate against gays.

[Iceburg]

55. Perhaps you should attend or monitor

one of their elections, failing that -- complete your education and then let's talk.

[Yupster]

63. I hope Castro wins his next election

I hear it's going to be a close one. Closest one in 45 years.

[Mika]

66. Yupster, please tell us how Cuba's government is selected

Yupster, you seem to know a lot about the Cuban electoral system <not>, please inform us as to your idea of how Cuba's government is selected on the municipal, provincial and national levels.

Thanks.

[eridani]

62. 400 years of Catholicism, 40 years of Fidel

Homophobia in the culture is obviously the fault of the latter. How could I have missed that?

[dsc]

58. actually there are very few piece of legislation here that do

What is missing is enforcement of protections. Even the restrictions on adoption tend to be regulations. The only legislation that I can think of, off the top of my head, is the DOMA legislation. The rest of the problem is absence of legislation.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

60. No I mentioned DOMA

and sodomy laws have been ruled unconstitutional. Maybe if you kept up on the news and did call people names (which is against the rules BTW) you would actually know that.

[Quetzal]

64. Yes

I don't doubt that Cuba is a great place to visit now. I agree with the notion that Cuba is not how the Miami radicals portray it to be.

[Mika]

67. Cuba has the lowest AIDS infection rate in the Caribbean

Caribbean leaders search for ways to stop AIDS spread
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030705.waids0705/BNStory/International/

Caribbean leaders called AIDS the single biggest threat to the region's development and said Saturday finding cheaper drugs is the key to halting the spread of the disease.

About 500,000 people in the Caribbean have the deadly disease, threatening to cripple the labor force as it prepares for free-trade and increased competition, St. Kitts and Nevis Prime Minister Denzil Douglas told reporters on the final day of a Caribbean summit.

The number does not include Cuba, where infection rates are low.

--

http://www.cbcfhealth.org/content/contentID/1537&relArticleDisplay=5

Cuba maintains the lowest HIV/AIDS prevalence in the Western Hemisphere -- 0.03% of the country's population is estimated to be HIV-positive, compared with 0.42% of the U.S. population

On the right of the same page you'll see these stats,

HIV/AIDS infection rates in the Caribbean are among the highest in the world second only to Sub-Saharan Africa.

As of December 1999, there were 360,000 adults and children living with HIV/AIDS in the Caribbean. By the end of the 2000, that number had grown to an estimated 390,000.

In the English-speaking Caribbean, HIV/AIDS is now the leading cause of death among men between the ages of 15 and 44 years.

In English-speaking Caribbean, 35% of HIV positive adults were women.

Approximately one out of every 300 people living in the US Virgin Islands is living with HIV/AIDS.

[Mika]

68. Early onCuba had to protect itself from an unknown contagen

Cuba's AIDS patient #1 dies
By Karen Lee Wald, Havana
4 October, 1995

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html

(snip) But despite increasing liberty of movement as the disease became better understood, the sanatorial system still placed more restrictions on the patients' mobility than was warranted by the nature of its transmission. Even after health authorities learned that AIDS cannot be spread by casual contact, it was still treated as a highly contagious disease due to the simple fact that unprotected sexual relations -- the norm in Cuba, as elsewhere -- was the predominant mode of transmission.
An ethical dilemma plagued health authorities: How to protect the rest of the population from unnecessary risk (the responsibility of the Public Health Ministry) without imposing burdensome restrictions on those who carried the virus but were not yet ill?
A solution was devised by Dr. Jorge Perez Avila, medical director of the Pedro Kouri Tropical Medicine Institute, when he was named director of the sanitorium in 1989, in consultation with PWAs, especially those who formed the Grupo Prevencion SIDA (GPSIDA, or Aids Prevention Group).
The key factors in the new system, which safeguards public health but also permits ambulatory care for seropositive patients, is an education and evaluation program that enables the medical staff to demonstrate to health officials -- and to a general population nervous about the spread of the disease -- that most seropositives, once taught about the forms of transmission of their disease, and how to live with it (including their obligation to avoid placing anyone else at risk) can live normal lives outside the sanitoriums.
This evaluation system had to be accompanied by a series of other measures -- some requiring economic investment not easy to come by in the current period -- before outpatient care could be put into effect, however.
Among these were:
Sanitoriums had to be built in each province so the patients would have access to the state-of-the-art care provided in the Havana sanitorium; these also had to be staffed, supplied (food, medicine, laboratories, transportation, fuel, work and recreation facilities, individual housing, furniture, etc.);
Family doctors had to be trained in each community where seropositives would be living, so they could provide the day-to-day attention the patients had been receiving;
Social workers and sexual education teams had to educate the communities and workplaces to which seropositives would be returning to prevent discrimination against them;
A massive AIDS education program had to be developed throughout the country, so that responsibility for preventing the spread of the disease would not fall exclusively on those who already knew they were seropositive, but would be shared by the rest of the population. A second aspect of this program would be to complement the work being done in specific neighborhoods and workplaces, to teach the population as a whole to welcome and care for PWAs.
This latter step would have been impossible without the development of the patient-initiated and run GPSIDA -- PWAs like Reyanldo and Maria Julia who went out into the community, onto campuses, on radio and television, to spread the word that AIDS is here, it can be avoided, you needn't be afraid of People With AIDS but you should be afraid of the disease itself. (snip/...)