Powerful Democrat--Knows the DU

[BabsSong]

I've been sitting on this since Saturday. I didn't know exactly what to share. I still don't (tempted to just wipe out this post). Unfortunately, there are some vicious people on this website. I will pick and choose what I wish to share because of it. I wish to share very little and I will not reveal this person.

My husband's parents (who are now dead) were very prominent in my state. Though they didn't have a poltical bone in their body, the powerful gravitated to them (money???). I was introduced Saturday in a social situation to one of the most powerful Democrats in my state. I followed my introduction with "member of the DemocraticUnderground.com"--what can we do, sir, to help???. His eyes lit up. He said "my god, I know this site. My staff knows this site. Who are you on this site?" I told him who I was that none of you really know (my other secret). He so wanted to encourage us because he said that "more political staffs than you know have been reading you". We sat over drinks for the next hour, one on one (until my non-politcal husband got him talking about his dating his sister ions ago and golf) and talked politics (he worshipped my in-laws who were great people)---there were no holds barred. The following is all I wish to share with you.

First, he talked about the days when he first ran for political office and Ralph Nader came to this state to speak at rallies. He said he totally worshipped the ground Ralph walked on since Ralph was a hero of his generation (and mine). He said he and his campaign manager were put into a car with Ralph in between stops. He said he went into that car thinking of Nader as a god. He said he exited that car hating Nader and hating him to this day. He said Ralph was an ugly opportunist who laughed at the "gullibility of the fools listening" (his words) to our message. Ralph filled the rest of the ride with info on how they could "milk" (Nader's words) the various unions into giving more money and how they could milk the stupid audience into digging into their wallets. This person I was talking to described himself (my age group and was indeed young at the time) as a wide-eyed, young attorney out fighting for the people and was sickened by what his "god" was saying. He said that it was like a virgin being raped...and he will never forget Nader's real introduction of him into politics. He said he got out of the car and said to his campaign manager, "you get me out of the rest of the ride with this fucker before I kill him". He told me that Ralph is (and I knew this) today a very wealthy man and a whore to whomever will pay him. He said Ralph is known to the political insiders as a whore who is capitalizing (loves capitalization) to whomever will pay him the most.

Then we had a real one on one about Kerry. He really respected him and said "this guy will make a great president". I wish to end here even though I intended to go on. I think I'll keep the rest to myself. I know that PROS of the campaign are accepted but any CONS aren't and we had a mixture of both. How wonderful to talk to someone who knows what is going on and can get into the criticism of this campaign that is necessary. Oh, by the way the bottom line is this from this big Dem: You can make a difference--keep posting and bitching to the Kerry campaign of how his ads, his message and his attacks need to change to attack, attack and attack. I could go on for pages, but I really don't care to share anything else. Hopefully, I can talk to him again. You might think you are only talking to yourselves. You are not. The last person who knew who we were was the governor of my state who I confronted in a hand shaking line. Therefore, take my word for it. Post and tell Kerry what we need from him and what we need now. You are not talking to the wind.

[BabsSong]

1. Going to kick this because "power" is talking to you n/t

[NMDemDist2]

2. hmm everything i like in a post

mysterious, elusive and DEAD SPOT ON!!!

glad the campaigns are listening, so when are we state parties gonna get some help here in the swing states?

kicking it :) :kick:

[BabsSong]

10. AZDem--I brought this up to him. It was the person from Ohio here

who, in essence said that they are getting no help in Ohio. Wellll, that's the part I didn't want to bring up here. We both shared that we had just read the Time article about this campaign---he was an avid reader of Time like me because they are the most likely to express our opinions and print our letters. He said that Kerry is coming under pressure from state people like him and others who are more the Ted Kennedy type Dem to stop the shit of these people in his campaign who are the old DLC/Clinton people and to go grab back to Mary (I saved your ass in Iowa) Cahill and her people who are telling him to stop acting like a goddamn prince and start acting like a fighter. NOTE: I never said this to him but goddamn when listening I said to myself "the fucking Clinton's want this to fail"--there..I said it. Hopefully he is now getting the message that these people literally mean him no good. He has to put boots on the ground and fight--they want him to be Prince Gore and fail.

[Wonk]

19. Bill Clinton wanted Gore to lose to Bush? Clinton wants Kerry to lose too?

:tinfoilhat:

On another note, has anyone ever told you that you swear like a sailor?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

63. "Clinton wants this to fail" = rightwing conspiracy

Clinton wants Kerry to fail so Hillary can run in an open race in '08. Neal Boortz 101.

[eileen from OH]

71. Yikes, Babs, that was me (from Ohio)

Thanks SO much for bringing it up. Rumor has it that it was the Kerry people who really set up the swing thru Ohio and that Kerry is sending 3 or 4 staff people to run the campaign and work WITH the Ohio Dems rather than letting them do the organizing. I hope to God that's true. I couldn't make any of the visits near here but I'm sure to hear from folks who did. Will see if it was any better than the debacle a month ago in Akron.

Thanks again!

eileen from OH

[PopSixSquish]

102. Run that by Me One More Time...

The Clintons want Kerry to fail? Nope, sorry. But nice try.

[Toucano]

132. Off topic

That's a great handle!

[Joanne98]

174. That was Coalminersdaughter

She lives close to me. It's true. We're getting no help. Everybody's complaining about it. That's why they're giving their money to moveon and now ACT. Act is here paying canvassers 8.00 an hour. We're determined to take this state. I just heard today from a canvasser that people are saying, "I voted for Bush but not again". They're real mad. It's a good thing.:)

[krkaufman]

180. Donation links?

What's ACT? How to donate?


Here's MoveOn's donation link:

http://www.moveon.org/support.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Sorry he and Nader no longer see eye-to-eye. Hope he likes Dennis K.

I hope, too, someone in the Kerry campaign read my open letter to him.

[UTUSN]

4. "think you are only talking to yourselves"

We spill our guts here, meaning strategy, ideas, intel--all for the picking by the Luciannes.

[Political_Junkie]

5. Thank you for sharing this.

[BeHereNow]

6. Okay- KERRY WE NEED YOU!

But if you are an extension of the same we will
hunt you like a pack of rabid wolves.
BHN

[Political_Junkie]

7. Ain't that the truth!

.

[lancdem]

8. Thanks for posting this

From what I've read, the Kerry campaign does listen to input. I believe their strategy is a bit unconventional (keeping a low profile while Bush spends his war chest like a drunken sailor), but I think it may be working. Now it appears Kerry may be starting his sustained counterattack.

[FizzFuzz]

9. OK! John Kerry, you've got well over one million

women (and men) who believe WOMEN COUNT.

Thats alot of votes. Court us!

[BabsSong]

13. Keep it up folks, keep it up, keep it up, keep it up..........that's what

I'm trying to tell you. We once had a very one on one blow out years ago with the "new to tv" Aaron Brown. We took him on. He responded to us. You have no idea how many of them do go to these sites. I expected this guy to say "huh--how much have you had to drink??" but he did NOT. Instead he sat and talked for an hour (wish to kill my husband and told him so because we could have gone on for hours). Husband has been trying to appease me ever since. They check these sites to see the 'temperature' of the suporters. So stop just worshipping in these posts and start telling Kerry loud and clear what he needs to do. It sounds like we - and other sites like us - got through on this Nam thing. Jesus Mary and Christ, they are actually taking Bush on. Keep it coming and stop saying "oh, you are so great John and I know someday you will go after Bush". He won't unless you tell him to.

[Blue_Roses]

58. Good post

one question. You said,"he won't unless we tell me to," meaning go after Bush. I get the impression that John Kerry is a fighter no matter who tells him to fight. He has been fighting for the rights of people for a long time. I hope he knows we need him to fight no matter what.

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. Someone HAS TO come to Detroit and speak to the disheartened

union laborers and the non union laborers...the disenfranchised inner city black voters. This state is not a sure win. Come and talk to us.

[revcarol]

20. And it might help if said person really took a look at jobs going overseas

because of NAFTA and the WTO and saud "WE WANT OUT!!" instead of weaseling that he "would look at them." Said person is IN THE SENATE, and should already know what is going on....

And we do need some help in the swing state of NM. Down here, we are over 12% GREEN, and Kerry is going over like a lead balloon. Richardson is not too popular here either.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Agreed rev! The non treatment of Michigan pre primary is going to

come back and bite us in the butt, if the problems aren't attended to. A Democratic Governor is not enough insurance against my state voting Bush. That, I could not bear. We are a ghost town of empty and bankrupted factories already.

[notadmblnd]

34. I agree, people here are beginning to wake up

I have spent the last 3 years at the lunch table trying to get their attention about what is going on in this country. Normally I say something about some bush policy and they blow me off with some smart crack or roll their eyes and look at me like I just landed on teh planet. Todays lesson, e-voter fraud. It's the first time I had them all engaged, thinking and answering questions we've (Du'ers) been asking for so long.

It was amazing, we went on to talk about the coffin issue, I swear I could smell the smoke when I asked them why was it alright for Bush to use a photo of a flagged drapped body that had been pulled from the rubble of the WTC in a political ad but dishonerable to show photos or videos of our guys coming home to Dover? Jim spoke up, Hipocracy? he offered, I smiled.

We talked about how bush was trying to make it easier for corporations to cancel their retires health insurance forcing them onto medicare and how this is part of the plan to eliminate entitlements such as social security and medicare by forcing them to go broke.


We talked about the inevitabel draft that is coming and the fact that local draftboards are in the process of being staffed and how it would'nt just be our boys this time the girls will be included too. I let them in on the possiblility that they too could have their number called if the government decides it needs IT professionals up to age 45. Finally, we talked about the mercernaries and what they make compared to the average GI. None seem to think that was fair.

I tell you, it's taken me a long time to sow this seed and get it to germinate. It's been a long row to hoe (being the only liberal female in a small group of conservative catholic men).

We need someone to come in now and open up a public question/answer session, to give people like the ones I work with an opportunity to gain a better understanding.

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. Great idea! And thank you! My husband has been trying to do the

very same thing at work. He works for a second tier automotive supplier and some of his coworkers would blindly follow Bushco off a cliff... So far a few have come around to at least being less Rah rah and a little more questioning. :hi:

[Zookeeper]

177. I'm glad to hear that is happening in Detroit...

I sense people here in Minnesota are waking up, also. Our economy is better than Detroit's, but Minnesotans are accustomed to certain "luxuries" like libraries, parks, decent schools, timely snow plowing and road repair, that have suffered greatly since the "anti-tax" Repug takeover.

I really focus on the Draft issue, even in casual conversations with store clerks and such. So far, NO ONE wants to fight, or send their children to fight, *Bushwad's war in Iraq. I believe he is most vulnerable on this issue.

[mouse7]

12. Nader is well known in political circles as an opportunist.

Nader is single-handedly more responsible for ending the careers of more intelligent and motivated social activists than anyone in DC. Many, many activists that began to have their causes and/or evidence and/or data begin to pick up a following suddenly found Nader's step in front of the camera and "claim" that fight for themselves, leaving the originator of said cause out in the cold. Nader would then use the new "cause" as a basis for new donations to him. Then Nader would do little on the issue compared to the energy the now-unfunded originator had been putting into the cause.

A good example of this recently is the Green Party. The Green Party had some momentum on the local level generating interest, and Nader basically took the Green Party as a vehicle for his own movement to the national spotlight. Then when the Green Party was used up and it no longer offered Nader significant advantages, Nader dumped the Green Party by the side of the road and continued in the spotlight without it by himself. Nader only shares attention as long as he absolutely must.

[BabsSong]

23. Amen,. Mouse..that's basically the experience this poltician with a lot

of wins under his belt had to say about this guy. He veiws him as scum. This is a wealthy person but a person, like the Kennedy's, etc., who have dovouted their lives to the people and principles of this nation. We were really giving and taking fast and furious and I was amazed at how he was livid about the healthcare in this nation, etc. He's my kind of people and he knew that goddamn Nader IS NOT.

[phiddle]

14. What I'd like to see from Kerry:

1. Define Bush in succinct, easily remembered, sound-biteable terms. How about "President in hiding", referring to his 500 days at vacation sites, lack of press conferences, his hiding behind closed doors and Dick Cheney before the 9-11 commission, his reliance on surrogates to criticize Kerry. "Come out before the American people, Mr. President, and don't let other people do your fighting" (alludes to AWOL).
2. Similar criticism of Bush's policies: "lone-ranger" foreign policy (this is an American Archetype, and feeds fears that we are alone and isolated in the world), the "birth tax" (referring to the deficit), and "soak the middle class" economics.
I think that Kerry to date has been a clever counterpuncher, but if he is to win, he must sooner or later take the offensive to define Bush and his policies in the public mind. If not, Bush wins by defining himself, and taking it to Kerry.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. Yeah, I think all that could be good

But I'd love it if Kerry took positions that are strongly different fron $hrub's as well. I don't want another debate like 2000 where every answer given is, "Well, I mostly agree with my esteemed opponent."

[yardwork]

54. I agree with you about the sound bites!

Kerry needs to drop the long droning sentences and define * in crisp, memorable terms.

Kerry fired his speechwriter and his recent talks have been better.

[BattyDem]

122. Kerry needs to consult with Al Sharpton

Remember the debates? That man had the best anti-Bush* one-liners!

[Lorien]

184. Indeed. We live in an ADD Nation

Where the IQ average is now 90 (according to my father, a psychologist). Kerry don't need to sound like Chimpy McDumbass, but as Phiddle pointed out, he must start spouting some very clever soundbites. Political ads are advertising a "product" like any other ad, and nobody remembers a product message that merely drones on stating a list of materials or ingredients. Snappy one liners and funny catch phrases (remember "fuzzy math"?) are VERY important!

[NMDemDist2]

65. "birth tax" OOOOO that's a GREAT one! n/t

[General Discontent]

111. Ding Ding Ding

"Birth Tax." Genius....... I'm gonna start using that term right now. Thanks....

DWolfman

[Digit]

142. Bush is *WEAK*

Weak because he can't go before the 9-11 hearing without Cheney.
Weak because he has created a deficit which is out of control and just cannot say no.
Weak because he can't admit he has EVER made any mistakes.
Weak because he can't seem to do anything right to create more jobs.
Weak because other countries now view OUR country as the biggest threat.
Weak in foreign policy.

Overall, a WEAK leader.

<insert how you view * as WEAK below...>

[Hekate]

153. Very good points! n/t

[Hekate]

154. Very good points! n/t

Arlington West, Santa Barbara, California
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Default.htm
click on the large photo of AW to go here and scroll down:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm

[Quahog]

159. "Birth Tax!" Yes, I love it!

Bush is setting up ALL working Americans to pay more taxes over the long haul. Our children will be hit not only with paying off the deficit, but also for paying for our care if we don't all salt away huge retirement nest eggs. If we keep going the direction bush* is pushing us, there will be NO social security or medicare for people my age (40's) when we retire.

Of course, "borrow-and-spend" bush* won't care about this, because as he says, he'll be dead.

BIRTH TAX! Yeah, Kerry should use that one!

[Zookeeper]

178. Excellent suggestions! n/t

[Cyrano]

15. That's an incredible anecdote about Nader ...

but totally believable in that he's decided to run again this year and keeps insisting that there's no difference between the Dems and Reps. Somehow, you've got to get this story verified and into print in places other than DU. Nader is already (partially) responsible for saddling us with the demented Daphene. We can't let it happen again.

There are too many misguided fools out there who will once again throw away their votes on this man. Please, don't let it happen. If Bush wins, it will be the end of democracy as we know it. It's easy for me to say this as I personally have nothing to lose, (except my country), and don't have to become the target of character assassination and hate mail. But if you really can back up the Nader comments, go read JFK's "Profiles in Courage," and come forward. I can only hope that if I were in your position, I'd have the courage to do so.

[onecitizen]

30. I had heard this about Nader...........

in the past. I preferred not to believe it. But I do now. Partly from his actions for the last few years and now cause Babs has confirmed it. It makes me sad though.

Now as for Kerry......we love you! You will be a wonderful President! Now go stand up to bush and his minions. Don't be pushed around by them. They are cowards. They will back down when challenged. They are sissies!

[NMDemDist2]

68. hear hear--- what citizen says

i ALWAYS thought Nader was a wacko slime ball (let the flames begin)

[Gloria]

16. Don't be too quick to buy into this guy's idea that it's Clinton and his

DLC at work here. I posted a long research post a couple of weeks back on the current DLC. It is not CLinton's DLC. My contact in DC says it's know all over town that the DLC has been infiltrated by Bayh, Carper, Mann and others who are all GOP lite. The home pages states as one of it's goal "bipartisanship." Will Marshall heads their Policy Institute and he's in Kerry's campaign.

This DLC invokes the name of Clinton to try to invoke some loyalty, but scratch below the surface. These are the people who most likely dumped Gore. This is the Lieberman crowd now who are in charge. And Reed and From are along for the ride. I get the strong feeling that Clinton doesn't have the influence he once had. Notice that they reversed themselves on a speech he gave on how to beat Bush.

****
"Ted Kennedy type Dem to stop the shit of these people in his campaign who are the old DLC/Clinton people"

[John_H]

25. Your Dc contact ought to know that Bayh and Carper didn't "infiltrate"

thge DLC. They were recruited for their fundraising connections and the fact that they are popular Dems in their states. Steel and Ag companies in Indiana and every credit card company under the sun in DE.

How come nobody ever takes geography into acount when they talk about the DLC. There is, and always has been a conservative block in the Dem party. Ever been to Indiana? Go. Drive around outside of Indy. You will marvel at the fact that it has had two statewide Dem officials.

It seems pretty anti-Democratic and Authoritarian (which the far, far left seems to relish being) to say that a large block of our party shouldn't have a voice.

[bloom]

53. I've lived about 5-6 different

towns and cities around Indiana - so I probably know it better than a lot of people.

In the smaller towns that I've lived in, there are often more Democrats - but in a conservative, working people sort of way. They could swing over to the Republicans if they thought they made more sense. I think many are fiscally conservative - so the ballooning deficit could be a big point - also loss of jobs....

Medium sized cities seemed more split.

Indianapolis seems very Republican for a city. One thing is they read the Indianapolis Star and probably don't realize how conservative it is.

It does seem very funny to me that the State goes for the Democrat for Governor and Republicans for President. Split on Senators. Maybe somebody else gets it. I don't.

[yardwork]

77. Same in North Carolina.

Almost always votes Republican for president, but Democratic for governor, and usually split senators.

One way to understand it - the southern Democrats are very conservative. It's the same in the midwest.

[Gloria]

146. Who recruited Bayh, Carper, etc. them??

Obviously, they are not GOP infiltrators...the larger question, who is pulling the strings to recruit these people? Look at Mann's resume...(she's PA legislator). Carper from Delaware.

They just serve on the top leadership tier....but there's a long list of
members...wish I had the time research them all...

[Vadem]

81. Damn, Gloria, I see it! Why is Will Marshall Kerry's speechwriter?

He needs to drop kick the bunch of them and come out with his liberal stances and he will gain a lot more votes than those of the Pub-lite DLC now involved in his campaign!

[Gloria]

144. The point is....the proclaimed mission should not be "bipartisanship"

You may have to USE that approach at times, but your proclaimed mission should be core Democratic values, first and foremost.

By saying that "bipartisanship" is your mission (and it is explicitly stated in the home page intro of the DLC), you've already indicated that you're ready to give up right damned quick. It's a weak stance...I don't see "biapartisanship" all over GOP web pages....

Look at some of the stuff at the DLC....articles about "Dean's Putsch" and how "Activists are Wrong." The tone is decidely hostile.

The DLC has moved further to the right, it's quite obvious if you really look at the site.

[FizzFuzz]

17. And another thing,

I deeply with all my heart agree with anyone here who emphasizes that an awful lot of the people who "like Bush", etc. watch alot of TV. They accept the "truth" they get from the news and campaign ads.

Also, alot of people are angry and like the pundits and pols who spew the vitriol. Grotesque, but its a part of us all. Maybe a little more visible righteous anger in the good name of Truth would be helpful. Lord knows its anger that is justified.

I just made a good donation to MoveOn today, for their push to fund Kerry's campaign and to MAKE and AIR Tv ads countering the garbage.
Short, sweet and aimed at the Limbic system.

[BabsSong]

27. Shall I tell you what we discussed about MoveOn. com??

We agreed they are wonderful. BUT, we agreed that Kerry cannot have them and others do his dirty work for him. I said to this man that these ads make people feel like there is a groundswell against Bush BUT then Kerry's ads don't take up the call. It's like the crown prince doesn't want his hands to get dirty. EXACTLY is what this guy said and said they were trying to convey to the Kerry campaign. He needs to be the leader of the opposition who says these things and takes the fight TO Bush. If he lets others do the bitching but doesn't lead their cause, he is perceived as weak. That's the message he and others are trying to get to this campaign. So please bitch and complain LOUDLY so they hear it.

[lovedems]

39. That is what I want to see from Kerry

(and we get the glimpse of it every once in awhile) and that is for HIM to lead the fight. The republicans let their minions do their dirty work and we should be above that. Our values and our vision are good ones and Kerry should not be ashamed or timid in being the leader of the democratic causes. Who cares if he is labeled a liberal. Let him lead the way so that is no longer a bad word. The conservatives wear their label on their lapel (we all know those flag pins). I want Kerry to LEAD. I know he can do it, he did it 30 years ago. All of those vietnam protests that the republicans are trying to use as unpatriotic show me leadership. He led the fight then and he can do it again!

[FizzFuzz]

43. Ah, I see

That makes sense.

So why not TEAM Up with MoveOn? They are trying to get the money together to give to Kerry's campaign, so that he can compete on fairer ground with the bazillionaires.

Or at least that's my understanding. I don't see any reason not to team up with them, as public relations experts. I mean, jeez they've got some talented video people. Bushflash.com too; that guy is a very talented visual artist too. Powerful stuff.

The talent is there, why not get in touch and coordinate efforts?

[revcarol]

48. They can't. They're a 527 organization,

and according to the Campaign Finance rules, there can be NO coordination (or even contact) between Move-On and the Kerry Campaign.

This is why Kerry MUST lead.Move-On can only talk about issues. Kerry must lead the attack against BUSH and the REPUBLICANS.

[FizzFuzz]

50. I believe they're working on changing that to a PAC

[Tellurian]

64. CF rules do not apply, not yet anyway..read from Move-On:

go to page 2:

link

[NMDemDist2]

70. NO that's illegal! MoveOn can do what they do BECAUSE

they don't coordinate with the campaign

[Guaranteed]

145. YES YES YES

Goddammit Babs you are SO fucking right on.

You are AWESOME. I love your posts. YOU should keep it up, in particular.

[Cleita]

24. That's great to hear BabsSong.

It's good to know that maybe there is hope after all, that we aren't just grumbling among ourselves. I also had Nader pegged and have taken a lot of grief from his supporters here for speaking the truth about Ralph. This happened long before you joined. I just stopped posting on those thread, because it was futile.

[LandOLincoln]

38. Yes, me too. I've hated Nader since the late 1960s, and

after talking to a couple of very bitter and disillusioned ex-Raiders. But trying to convey Nader's true sliminess to the young and starry-eyed is an exercise in futility.

[loudsue]

26. This is WAAAAAY interesting.....glad you told us about it!

And how exciting to be able to have such a great experience!

Now....for something you said in your post further down....about the Clintons not wanting Kerry to win.

I KNEW THAT!!!

The entire DLC (which Bill championed, and Hillary leads w/ others now) ARE THE SAME AS THE CORPORATIST REPUKES!!! Same folks! The same $$. The same "mentors" who train the up & coming people who want to run for office! They are the SAME ONES that train the repuke neophites.

Hillary wants to run for Pres. The corporations and the war machine want Hillary to run for pres....against Jeb Bush! That way, they win either way!

This has got to stop! Someone needs to LEAD the Democratic party back to its base, and quit believing in the Fairy GodUndecideds!!! They'll ALL FOLLOW THE ONE WITH THE BEST PLAN --- no matter whether it's a "D" or an "R" after their name.

Stick with the PLAN!! Support the VOTERS, AND THEY'LL SUPPORT YOU!! Support the Corporations, and they'll support you until they eat you ALIVE at their first whim!!

Thanks for sharing, Babs.

:kick:

[BabsSong]

29. loudsue--oh, darling how I want to say more right now.......I really do

but I can't. I think I'll just let your post stand as sufficient on the subject. It's amazing to hear what real Democrats have to say about this all. And depressing about where things are. It was so good to talk to this man---why the hell can't they all be like this (good luck on your Senate race, dear soul in November).

[mmonk]

31. But Kerry has to win

That's all there is to it. Four more years of what we have is too risky. A country that storms through the world arrogantly can't lead. It will spend too much of its treasure, blood, and effort defending itself from those it has created that despise it.

[Blue_Roses]

62. NO, PLEASE NOT JEB

BUSH! I can't take anymore Bushes!!!! NOOOOO!

[Zookeeper]

179. Another Bush would be disturbing to most people..

it suggests a monarchy of sorts. I seriously doubt that Jeb could be elected. Enough's enough, especially after Georgie's Iraq adventure.

[symbolman]

28. Please pass this along to anyone in the Kerry camp who wants FREE ads

You've all see some of my work at one time or another.

I've actually won awards in Hollywood for some of my earlier pieces (http://www.symbolman.com) and my creation was one of the 16 finalists out of about 1600 submissions sent to the Bush in 30 seconds contest http://www.bushin30seconds.org hosted by MoveOn.org's 527 organization - my production pals (peopletopeople.tv) and our Guardian Angel (the man who paid $100,000 dollars, along with donations sent to our site to Air ARMY OF ONE on cable TV 3000 times) went to the MoveOn gala event in NYC and were happy to be in the same room with Michael Moore, Janeane Garofalo, Moby, and a long list of other progressive luminaries. We were in Heaven and MoveOn changed the polititcal landscape that night.

Even tho we didn't win the the Big Prize that night, the next evening I appeared on Joe Scarborough's show on MSNBC where he threw me for a loop. I was expecting to get slammed for my "Bush is Not a Nazi - So Stop saying that.." flash movie - Right wing media had been all over MoveOn for two Bush/Nazi entries that had dropped like a rock when submitted, and were beating the subject like a circus donkey...

Scarborough showed my ARMY OF ONE (30sec) version and Loved it. So all my witty repartees got kicked to the curb. Oh well, at least our work go shown on National TV, and the very next day. http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view/11_small.shtml

Soon after that, we all headed up to New Hampshire to chase presidential contenders all over the area with video cameras - on one of those occasions I was lucky enough to strike up a conversation with Teresa Heinz (knowing nothing about her) while she was hanging onto John Kerry's belt and being SO funny, warm, and graceful that I immediately fell in love with her - I think everyone will once she is better known.

Also had the pleasure of meeting with "Marvelous Marvin:, their huge (but not ungainly), very cool and hep, personal security guard. Teresa invited us all to go hang with them at the Carole King concert that night, but given that it was the coldest weather to hit the east coast in history, and that we were all sniffling and exhausted we graciously turned down the offer. I killed me as I really wanted to GO and get better acquainted with these wonderful folks. I like them a lot, I expect Kerry to be a great President and Teresa to be one of the BEST First Ladies the country has ever known.

While I talked to them I gave them one of my Take Back the Media business cards and told them that ARMY OF ONE was running on cable TV during the Primaries 3000 times and that it was just the ticket for Mr Kerry to kick Bush's ass a few of the major military issues.

I offered the ad FREE OF CHARGE to the Kerry team - told Teresa and "Marvelous Marvin" that it was THEIRS if they wanted it.

NOW I'm seeing commercials run by Bush that use nearly the same messages to Trash Kerry. The right wing smear machine is all over Kerry's illustrious and noble military career and it's sickening to watch. The Bush people have no message but FEAR and have to denigrate an actual HERO to try and re-steal the White House.

SO, I'm livid and I want to throw my full support behind Mr John Kerry, but I've been out of the political loop for a few months (moving, trying to make ends meet, etc) so I have no Contact information for the Kerry crew, and I want to get some facetime with Teresa, or someone near to the top. I met their campaign manager, or one of them and was blown off and that soured me a bit, so I need to get to someone that's is willing to take an honest look at what I do and what I'm good and and potentially USE some of my material.

HERE are 15 of what I consider my Best flash movies. They've been seen willie-nillie on the web (some have been slayed in the LATIMES, National Review, etc) - linked on Michaelmoore.com, Howardstern.com and many more Great sites. One of them has been downloaded nearly a million times - I'll let you guess which one, but one clue would be to say that the GERMANS Loved it. :)

"Bush Knew - An American Requiem"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/true911.html
Music: Beethoven's Requiem in D major - "LaCrimosa"

WARNING: GRAPHIC

I created this exactly one year after the actual horror took place on 911. I found it absolutely impossible to believe that Bush would sit on his butt in a schoolroom KNOWING that one of the World Trade Center towers had been taken out by an airliner - and STILL sit there (even AFTER Andrew told him personall that the SECOND tower had been hit) and READ A BOOK ABOUT A GOAT FOR OVER A HALF AN HOUR.

Think about that. I've included all the information by the media that shows that he had FULL KNOWLEDGE of our country being under attack when he walked INTO that school (placing all those kids in danger - his whereabouts were well known - this was a planned photo op.

This flash may be disturbing to some people. It involves a split screen that shows Bush reading on the left while the buildings burn and poor souls are leaping to their death. The death that in my opinion was allowed to happen at a minimum and at a maximum shows utter incompetence by Bush, who as we have learned recently had MANY warnings in presidential briefs right up to the cataclysm. BUSH KNEW - AND DID NOTHING.

This flash was made possible by the use of actual footage made at the Booker Elementary school by local media that morning that shows CONCLUSIVELY that Bush SAT on a chair, looking mighty guilty to many of us.

"Bush is Not a Nazi - So Stop Saying That.."
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

"ARMY OF ONE"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html
or VIEW the 30 second TV ad
here: http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view/11_small.shtml

"Murder By Numbers"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/murderby.html

"CondoLIESa"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/condosleeza.html

"ChickenHawk - Hall of Shame"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/chickenhawks.html

"Triumph of the Wimp"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/triwimp.html

"Pentagoon"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/pentagoon2.html

"VoteREvolution"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/voterevolution.html

"Duct Tape Theater"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/dtape1.html

"Hate Radio Called.."
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/hateradio1.html

"Baghdad Snapshot Action"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/iraqkids.html

"Warnography"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/warnography.html

"The Protest that Never Was"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/noprotest.html

"One Hundred Lies In 30 Seconds"
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/100lies.html

I'm not beating my drum here, these are available for everyone to view (if you haven't seen some of them, then here is your chance)

But mainly this is a plea to anyone that views this page to CONTACT the Kerry Team and help them make use of some of my work and style - I'm offering these works for FREE use by them - we need to get the Beasts out of OUR Precious White House.

The ARMY OF ONE ad comes in 30 and 60 seconds flavors and is already Vetted by the cable companies.

John, Teresa, Marvelous Marvin? Give me a call - we love you and we want to help, and it's time to hit them back HARD with facts, wit, and truth.

Anyone else viewing this page, Please pass it along - THIS is another way to fight these creatures, blanket the WEB with these Flash Attack Ads!

As you can see, WE DELIVER :)

Symbolman co founder of Take Back The Media.com
http://www.takebackthemedia.com

[BabsSong]

32. symbolman---I've been reading your posts and wishing the Kerry

campaign would take advantage. I wish I had read them before I talked to this guy or I would have brought it up. Thank you for hanging in there. Keep pushing. And if I see him again--and the possibility is pretty good--I'll pass it along. Thanks.

[calimary]

36. I'll second that, and add my own offer - I'll do voice-overs for free!

I've got a well-recognized voice from years on the radio and TV. I'd be glad to help these folks for nothing.

REALLY appreciate this, Babs - sometimes I do feel like I'm shouting into the wind. We all need to hear this, and know this. Bless your heart for passing the message along.

Kerry DOES have to fight harder and more aggressively. Or else he'd gonna look like somebody who doesn't really want it that badly...

[FizzFuzz]

40. If you need a stage-experienced Sign Language Interpreter

count me in. Gratis.

Gets attention on ads, and shows the Democratic party values access for all.

[FizzFuzz]

47. hey symbolman

I think you should use your talent and say something about Bush's War on Women. Over 0ne million from all over the WORLD at a march...don't be silent on this like the mainstream media is.

Coat hangers make for some pretty arresting visuals. That's where Bush is driving us.

If its hard to resonate with the subject, recruit some women friends and relatives to let you know just how serious it is.

Its a big market, 1/2 the population. dont ignore us.

[spotbird]

49. Teresa Heinz

Teresa Heinz (knowing nothing about her) while she was hanging onto John Kerry's belt and being SO funny, warm, and graceful that I immediately fell in love with her - I think everyone will once she is better known.

Where I'm sure what you say is true, I'm also certain that that part of her personality does not come across on the stump. Hate radio is already picking on her and it won't be long before she is vilified by the mainstream press. The most important thing to know about these horrible people is that there is no bottom to what they will do, and Teresa is next.

Why can't she pretend to pay attention while he speaks? It must be the most boring seat on the planet but if she is too tired to fake it she should skip that engagement. She also needs to stop avoiding affection from him, it is perfectly clear that it is uncomfortable with it in public and I can appreciate that, but again she just has to go through the motions.

Now it's time to attack me for making her an issue. Keep in mind that I'm not making her anything, she will be an issue whether we like it or not.

[BabsSong]

51. spotbird--thank you---no attack here

It's the stuff we need to get out. Yes, she does need to do better--like it or not. And go to the bank that about September we will hear that this FOREIGNER is a infiltrator from bin Laden compared to Ms. Homespun,Ms. Bush (chain smoker, automobile accident killer, etc.). This will indeed come and we better be (doubt it as usual) prepared.

[symbolman]

108. They are VERY

close... when I met her I asked her what she was doing with the campaign.. I didn't even RECOGNIZE her :)

She was holding onto the back of his belt and saying that she likes to play "pony" with him as she jerked him belt around, pulling him back.. it was really cute and spontaneous..

she's a REAL person and not a phoney like Bush's footstool..

I was even making remarks about how she'd make a better first lady than the Prozac Woman in the white house right now..

she said, "Oh.. she's not so bad.. she knows how to read.." I just cracked up and came back with.. "Well, SOMEONE has to READ to Bush.." :)

we all had a great laugh.. meanwhile my wife had a video camera IN KERRY'S FACE, to the point where he asked her, "Who are you, who do you represent and WHY do you have this camera in my face?"..

it was pretty funny, really..

SHE'S the greatest, and I'd take anyone on that says otherwise..

and thanks to ALL OF YOU for your support of me and my work,

it's gonna take all of us and all our talents to get this BEAST out of the White HOuse..

some people say there's no such thing as evil.. I've SEEN EVIL today, on CNN.. it was BUSH killing women and children for FUN..

and Profit..

[nomatrix]

116. Symbolman, You know about the David Bowie

Remix contest? You do great work, maybe get you something cooking there. Think Bowie awsome to pitch his music into the frey and let people get creative.

You are a legend in your own time.

http://www.soulshine.ca/news/newsarticle.php?nid=513

edited to add link.

[bobbieinok]

171. RW radio attacks her often - claims she gives $$ to terrorists

some call her 'terrorist Teresa'

[orwell]

57. All Hail Symbolman

Symbolman...you rock.

They would be crazy not to bring you on board.

Keep up the great work.

O

[loudsue]

67. Symbolman....didn't you do one called "MONEY" ??

It was a couple of years ago, I think. What happened to it? It was really good, too!

:kick:

[Kanary]

33. It's heartening to think we could influence Kerry, but....

the Kerry cheerleading squad here on DU is too large and too *aggressive* to go up against. Anyone who says anything at all questioning of Kerry is bombarded with "freeper" accusations, and it just isn't worth it.

So, if Kerry wants to hear what people *really* think, then he's going to have to be willing to read his mail.

Having been told all this, I hope that you will interject some of this whenever someone here gets beat over the head for daring to say anything at all unflattering about Kerry.

Kanary

[BabsSong]

41. Kanary--KISS KISS KISS---and Amen

I've tried to bring up things here about criticizing this campaign and have been told to go fuck myself and worse. It was so good to talk to a real, in the middle of it, devoted Dem politician who was thinking the same thoughts. Stoke and kiss Kerry. But for Christ's sake when you need to kick him in the ass KICK HIM or we are dead in November...and let all of you realize that we are fighting for the same thing but we have to be hawks watching, kicking, biting, scratching and bitching the hell all the way if necessary to get John across the finish line.

[Guaranteed]

147. Doesn't matter.

FUCK them. Protect your integrity. Do everything you can, so at least you'll be able to say you tried.

[Generator]

35. Just tell Kerry to be the warrior he was born to be

and fight like he did in Vietnam,because it's not a game. It's not politics. To us crazy fools, it seems that the soul of the country is on the line. I would ask him to remember that. It's the most important election in our modern history. Tell him to remember that every waking second.

And keep telling the truth about BushCo, it's the truth that Americans must keep hearing. (And use our anger, and use Howard Dean!)

[FizzFuzz]

37. AND one more thing

I think the simple key concept to consult in shaping response to Bush should be OUTRAGE.

USE that OUTRAGE, John. Of course, here, you're singing to the choir, but I think many many Americans ARE outraged...but they're not hearing (and SEEING) in clear terms (and PICTURES) what's CAUSING the problem and what to do.

They know they're miserable (I know alot of Bush supporters who are financially threatened and not particularly well educated. All they know is they are miserable, and maybe Bush isn't so great, but "Kerry's not so hot either.") They don't have facts to support that belief, they just "know" it.
Again, its the Limbic sytem.

Show them the PICTURES!! Bush making speeches to various groups, promising support, then turning around and cutting funding. SHOW IT!!

USe a graph and use some pictures of the poor kids who wont have food on the table now;

who wont be able to go to college now,

who tried to go to Planned Parenthood for an exam because they're too poor to have health insurance and got verbally attacked by hate-crazed Bush-bumperstickered Christians. (Just saw a heartbreaking letter in our local alternative newspaper from a girl's mother. This IS HAPPENING)

The Senior Citizens who got lied to and can't afford their meds.

The propagandizing Media voices that ignored the Largest March in US History.

Concrete examples.

Shoot you don't even have to make any of this up...just dramatize for TV the real stories that are all over the damn place.

Hmmm, part of the problem is the sheer, overwhelming weight of it...sooo many lies and subterfuges going on. Plus, everything Bush does is aimed at the basest of human drives. Fear. Greed. Hate. Superiority. Hiding behind the golden fleece of Religiosity and Power.

I'm not sure it would benefit matters to impugn his Religious credentials. We know its bullshit, but the superficial moralistic screamers would then take center stage. Like they did with Janet's breast, so that outrage over the censoring of MoveOn's ad fell by the wayside.

STUDY how fascism has gained power in the past!!!!! How have societies historically excacerbated or deflected its momentum?
MORE STUDY: how to deal with PSYCHOPATHS and NARCISSISTS. There is ample info on the web; I've checked alot of it myself and I see the classic character traits in Bush. (I didn't know it was contagious though. His main dudes all seem to have it.)

Even the linguistic anomolies--studies have shown pychopaths frequently display odd speech errors (see material by Dr Robert Hare)

Phew, I meant to keep this short. Guess I'm OUTRAGED.

[BabsSong]

44. FizzFuss--great rant------e-mail it to the Kerry campaign

That's the message I want to get out here.

[FizzFuzz]

52. Thanks, I'm flattered! Where do I find the address?

[bigtree]

121. unbelievable

jacked up with criticism of his campaign and have no idea how to contact him after all this time? And you are in touch with what Kerry is doing? How?

Here friend: http://johnkerry.com

[LWolf]

42. Thanks for this post!

It really does help to believe that Kerry pays attention to what we (not just DU, but democrats and voters in general) think. And to hope that he not only pays attention, but meets us and works with us.

In that spirit, here is what I would like to see from Senator Kerry:

Support for the issues that Kucinich will bring to the convention, in the form of 5 petitions:

Ending the war in Iraq;
Enacting universal health care;
Repealing the "Patriot" Act;
Ending NAFTA and the WTO in favor of fair trade, jobs and workers' rights; and
Creating a Cabinet-level Department of Peace.

http://www.kucinich.us/petitions/

This is why I am still supporting Dennis in the primaries; I know he will not be the nominee, but he is representing me on the issues that I care about. I will be with Senator Kerry after the convention, but if he wants more than my vote, I have to feel like he'll act to address the issues in a way that I value.

And one more issue: Public Education. This is personal. I am a teacher. I am dismayed by Kerry's rhetoric concerning public ed.

I want him to address this:

By signing the No Child Left Behind Act and then breaking his promise by not giving schools the resources to help meet new standards, George Bush has undermined public education and left millions of children behind.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/education/

It's not just a matter of funding, Senator Kerry. The whole high-stakes testing debacle is destroying public education. Repeal all legislation connected to high stakes testing. Do it right away. Tell us you will. Teachers need to know that you won't continue to make political hay out of their lives, reputations, and careers, while serving the interests of those who wish to abolish public education.

Repeal all legislation and policies that lead to public ed funding being spent on programs, consultants, training, etc. that enrich corporate ed companies and impoverish actual instructional methodology.

John Kerry also believes that given the demands of a global economy, every single child has to be able to reach high standards in order to prosper. To ensure that all children can meet high standards, we need to do so much more to improve our public education system.

Guess what, Senator Kerry? People come in many shapes, sizes, and abilities. Not everyone can, or should, be trying to attend our universities. We need many kinds of skills in the world, and not everyone has to meet some politician's definition of "high academic standards." Let us go back to this: let us strive for each individual in our care to reach their personal best; to enrich and extend their personal strengths, and improve on their personal weaknesses. Let's not measure all people against the same standard, as if they were parts on an assembly line, or as if they were stepford people. Let's celebrate and work with our differences as well as our commonalities. Let's work on individual, real people, not masses of students who represent numbers in a statistical spreadsheet.

How? Let's have a very few, very broad, very general, national standards; and let the locals decide on how and when to meet them. Let's allow teachers to meet each and every student at their point of need, regardless of where that may be in the continuum. Above or below, ahead or behind...let's meet each child where she is. Value what she has accomplished, and do our best to make sure she is reaching her potential and achieving her best. Let's not treat her like a product that we are manufacturing.

No more high-stakes standardized tests, Senator Kerry. No more blaming teachers for society's ills. No more setting us up to fail by demanding things that there are no funds to support. Let's really care about our citizens.

Champion social and economic justice. We the teachers of America will be right there with you. But don't make us responsible for more than we can be, or blame us for things we have no control over. If you really want to advocate for children, families, and public education, you'll let us meet the needs we see, and do our best...and be glad we're on the front lines doing it. You won't demand that we meet unreasonable, unrealistic, or harmful standards that actually leave children further behind than when they crossed our threshhold.

Get behind us, Senator Kerry, and we'll truly be behind you. It won't be lip service from our unions, it will be real service from our hearts.

[FizzFuzz]

45. gee call me a crazy idealist,

but I wonder if it would be possible for all the Dem runners to unify and work together behind whoever wins the nomination? It would be a shame to let brilliant ideas get lost.

[LWolf]

55. Well, let's see.

By dem runners, who do you mean? All 9 or 10 of the others? DK in particular? I believe all but DK have formally endorsed Kerry and many are working for or with him. And Dennis has repeatedly offered his support in the campaign after the convention, when the nomination has been "won." So I guess it is not only possible, but is reality. Right now.

:thumbsup:

I think that's the whole point; to not allow brilliant ideas, that don't happen to be Kerry's to get lost. To support those ideas; to actively campaign for them, while at the same time supporting the party's nominee.

:hi:

[FizzFuzz]

59. cool cool cool!

ok time for me to get offline and send some good Buddhist vibes their way!
:toast:

[BabsSong]

56. LWolf--husband is a teacher. Met Kerry and told him just about what

you said. I'd like to give some great upbeat reply to you. But I can't. Kerry said to him "yes, the No Child Left Behind is bad we need to fix it". Husband said, "You need to get rid of it". He pointed right across the street to the inner core high school he teaches at and said "we have 32 languages spoken over there from kids right off the boat. You will never find a more didicated bunch of professionals teaching, helping and loving those kids. We have a great learning community loved by teachers, kids and their parents but you can't make them fit this asshole mold". Kerry smiled and moved on. Unfortunately, he was all over my husband because he was a teacher BUT he's all over being a politician who wants to give people test scores. Yep, John, that solves all our problems.....Oh, by the way, the man I was talking to, his wife is a teacher who student taught my son-in-law and recommended him for his Principal position of one of the state's bigger schools. I wish I had had time to go over the education thing.

[LWolf]

Well BabsSong,

if we look on the bright side, it means that Kerry is hearing this from more than one source. If I, or your husband, or anyone else, were the only one to feel this way, he could easily move on. But there are many, many of us. And I keep feeling that now is the time to make ourselves heard; now, he still needs us.

I'd love to hear more when you can.

:hi:

[bpilgrim]

46. the DU think-tank

can't find better wetware anywhere ;->

thanks for sharing :hi:

peace

[dweller]

89. THE DU THINK TANK....do you all remember the challenge

put forth about 4-5? months ago by this website for all supporters to write up their candidate's endorsement for publication on the DU frontpage? Remember those?

What's to stop an organized group of DU'ers from putting forth a 'manifesto' so to speak that any and every member here could sign onto that could be presented to Kerry since as BabsSong has written above, they are reading here...?

Now think for a moment. You could take the whole month of May (not a short deadline like DU gave us) and craft a definitive statement, fleshed out in full that states exactly what needs to be said for what the Kerry campaign needs to do to take the White House and to gain our full support. Just let the members here offer, without the bickering, biting, and backstabbing each other, and instead put forth a clear, strong and understandable message. Add our names at the end, and let them know we are watching and waiting for them to move on the advice.

what have you got to lose?

There are many talented people here, some have more talents in writing, some have more in other areas of expression, but all know there is one thing we can join in whole-heartedly together on and that is taking back our Country, and the first step is the White House in November.

maybe i'm just reminiscing, but what you may not have known: for about one week, about 4 days actually, during that DU challenge, I had the best experience of working together with a dozen give or take, very talented and dedicated Kucinich supporters crafting an endorsement for Kucinich that ended up on the DU front page. I hope i can speak for the others, Tinoire, Indiana Green, LWolf, Kleeb, Sweetheart,Dover, Mairead, Rucky, Diamondsoul, (and others i've missed) in stating that working together to get a message across, sure beats the hell out of trying to shout louder than the crowd.

think about it....they are listening? what needs to be said?

peace,
dp

[NMDemDist2]

send it to the ATA and see if they will fly it n/t

[bpilgrim]

98. c what i mean ;-)

i love it :toast:

:hi:

peace

[Kanary]

113. Great, dp! Let's DO IT!

I'm not on your list, but count me in, if I'm allowed.

Kanary

[dweller]

155. I don't have a list

and i wouldn't be the one to get such a project started, i was just tossing out the idea for those so inclined.

now after reading allll the replies in this thread, i'm more inclined to just go back to the cat herding prospects of the good old days...

but go for it all the same,
dp

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

61. Well Kerry if you are reading

or if anyone in your camp is reading...

COME TO TEXAS!!!!!!

Just a short trip, hit the Dallas area maybe, even on your way to somewhere else.

Yeah, I know, it's a red state, not worth the time, blahblahblah.

But Dean hit us several times and gave hope and life to the disgruntled Dems and Independents and Reps who are NOT happy with the Shrub anymore.

We are fighting hard here and while I have no doubt TX will be red again in November, I think people will be very surprised at the numbers out of TX AND Oklahoma. The numbers are going to make Repuke strategists everywhere feel themselves pucker up just a bit. And not their mouth.

It'd be a big shot in the arm for us if he came here, if only for a brief appearance.

AND KEEP HITTING HARD AT BUSH. Beat 'em at their own game, the bastards. EVERYTHING is riding on this. EVERYTHING.

[Failure]

66. THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

That makes me feel so much better. I was called an outright repuke because I dared to share with DU some constructive criticism that I'd had regarding the campaign. Thank you again.


failure.

[robbedvoter]

69. Pick Wes Clark as VP

Oops! This is you - who want 4 more years of W - why am I believing a word you write?

[Avalux]

72. Bingo

I don't believe a word either. :eyes:

[LandOLincoln]

101. Thanks, Robbedvoter, I needed that. I was almost buying it because of

the Nader stuff--some of which I've known for years. But I'll never believe the Clintons wanted Gore to lose, or that they want Kerry to lose. That's pure Freeperpoop.

Then I got to thinking about the Nader story, which--as I said--I'd bought initially because I know him to be a scumbag.

But he's a smart scumbag, and very unlikely to reveal his machinations to someone he's just met, ESPECIALLY if that someone is a mucky-muck in the Democratic party as Babs would have us believe.

Then there's that name: "Babsong."

Hmmmmm. How about "Babs" = Streisand, second only to "Hitlery" as the favorit bete noire/"feminazi" of the wingnuts?

...not to mention the overwrought, bodice-ripper prose in the original post.

Folks, IMO we've been well and truly had. We'll see, but I'd watch ol' Babs like a hawk if I was y'all, and take everything with a bucket of salt.

[Tinoire]

139. Effing real SHIT. I am agreeing with Clark folks! Damm it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damm it.

I personally dislike your man but there's NOTHING stupid about you guys- NOTHING. DAMN IT. STOP THIS!

Your astuteness makes me have second thoughts about the person you're supporting & I TRULY hate that.

[LandOLincoln]

150. Dang, Tinoire, now I'm gonna have to have second thoughts

about you! WTF is goin on here, anyway?? :yourock:

[Tinoire]

157. Lol- It's not the first time.

I'm just hot-headed and very, very angry these days and sometimes post before I calm down. I've seen you action on certain topics and thought the same ;) I think the last time was on some thread in GD having to do with the Palestinians. Had to look three times to make sure I wasn't seeing things and ask myself how we ever had a cross word.

:yourock:

[loudsue]

73. Tell him to Get the Repukes OUT of His Campaign!!

They AREN'T THERE TO HELP!!!! They didn't help GORE, and they're not gonna help KERRY! All they do is make mish-mash out of everything he says!

:shrug: Duh? :wtf:

[Tellurian]

74. Campaign Finance Rules do NOT apply to MOVE-ON

even though they are a 527-

scroll to pg 2 (in case you missed it elsewhere)

read from MOVEON..

link

[roguevalley]

83. Its an ugly world now. If he can't swing a big stick, then he deserves

to lose. Unfortunately, that means we're all screwed.
FIGHT. That is the only way. STICK IT TO THEM! God.
They're sticking it to you. Give it back. Never give
a sucker an even break.

Check Sidney Blumenthal for the ethic: punch me, I'll
hit you with a chair. Hit me with a chair and I'll hit
you with a 12 gauge to the face.

My kind of dem.

[Tellurian]

87. It's the Brain that will Win the race not the might...

you sound like a repuke.

go getem!

[NMDemDist2]

90. hmm tell that to Gore--He was very very smart! n/t

[Tellurian]

114. Kerry isn't Gore. If you can't tell the difference, I can't help you! n/t

[NMDemDist2]

115. please look at the post just below this and note the name

i think i can tell the difference :think:

[NMDemDist2]

75. tell him he has to fight for people like me

I emailed him in August of 2002 and begged him to run. here i am sweating my @ss off working the neighborhood, no good handouts, hard to get signs and buttons and bumper stickers (the pin is from before Iowa when everybody thought he was a loser)

I have sent him money I can't afford (my first time EVER to contribute) cuz my biz is hard hit with outsourcing.......

DO YOU HEAR ME KERRY???

[loudsue]

103. LOL!! That's great, AzDem

:yourock:We'd all sign your petition and invite you in for coffee!:yourock:

Keep up the good work!

:kick:

[NMDemDist2]

105. thanks , can i have ice water or tea instead--too dang hot for coffee

:)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. My advice to the Kerry campaign

1) John Kerry is falling into the Al Gore trap of talking in bureacratic generalities instead of inspiring visions. He needs to find a way to inspire voters by presenting an attractive vision of America's future in simple sound bites. It used to make me crazy when Al Gore talked about "policies that benefit working families" without mentioning what they WERE.

2) Here are some widespread needs that are NOT being met: jobs, affordable housing, fixing our decaying infrastructure, easing oil shortages by providing alternatives to driving, a health care system that neither fails to help patients nor stiffs doctors. Back in the Reagan administration, someone prepared a chart of what could have been done with the money spent on Star Wars research and the B-1 bomber. A concise and striking presentation of what could have been done with the Iraq War money might be effective.

3) Stand for something definite. Don't worry about what the pundits say, just make sure that it comes from who you really are instead of from focus groups. Voters sense and respect authenticity.

4) Every time Bush or an administration official lies, Kerry or a surrogate should be right on top of him, not only telling the truth but reframing the whole issue.

Kerry can either go for the over-indulged swing voters (the ones who don't care enough to pay attention between elections) or try to inspire the non-voters. I recommend seeing the film The Revolution Will Not Be Televised for a little inspiration.

[FizzFuzz]

117. just one small criticism

to an otherwise terrific post...

Be verrry careful of argument about the Iraq War. The people that are for Bush are pro war. The people towards the edge are so scared now, they would run screaming from anyone who says "reduce the war effort"

Now, if someone said, "here's a better way to fight the war, that will make you more safe against terrorists"...that would fly.

"I have a beter way to protect you" has got to be in there--people WANT a protector.

Of course, I'm talking about the more moderate people who reasonably believe that terrorism must be addressed. (forget about the people who just want to blow up arabs.)

Emphasize that the present methods of fighting the war are not working and name what would work. Do NOT focus on criticising the war without offering better, IMPRESSIVE ways to fight terrorism. Maybe they dont all have to be loud and impressive, but we have become such a bunch of sensationalists, that some sensationalism is the only thing that will get through.

[Generator]

78. If Nader is a "very wealthy man"

what does he do with his money? Doesn't spend it on cars, houses or kids. Not married, doesn't own those. Just playing with being Prez?

Ralph is an egoist, no doubt. But a corporate whore? Really? My, next you'll be telling us we deserve four more years of Bush.

I'm not buying what you're selling, hell I'm not even sure what you're selling.

[Cleita]

82. Awe, Ralphie is buying lots of stuff.

Google will be your best friend if you dare to let the scales drop from your eyes and do some research. I am through wet nursing you Nader idealogues, so do some research on your own.

[BiggJawn]

100. Nader INVESTS.

He has a HUGE portfolio.

" Doesn't spend it on cars, houses or kids. Not married, doesn't own those."

Here is what I have read.
He doesn't "own" a house, true. It's in his brother's name. It's a huge old Queen Anne-style Victorian, and NOT falling apart, either. Just like a Televangelist, "I don't own a House!" (the ministry hold title to the property. and WHO "is" the ministry?)

Why should he own a car? his organization owns the cars, and he has a driver that drives him around. Just like a Televangelist.

Not married? Not surprising. He plays that "I ain't got TIME for grooming!" schtick TOO well. If he were a woman, you could call him "frumpy".

"Just playing with being Prez"? No, doing what he was HIRED to do, which is to keep people like you from voting for Kerry.

And yes, if you'd vote for Ralph, you DO "deserve 4 more years of Bush"

[Toucano]

138. How huge is huge? n/t

[TankLV]

79. Message to Kerry: campaign from the DEMOCRATIC wing of the dem party!

The small step would go a long way towards victory.

NO REPUKE LITE!

[CharlieBakerAble]

80. What do they think of the few posters calling our troops cowards?

Why not share it all?

[Catherine Vincent]

97. Where did you read that?

I don't believe you.

[CharlieBakerAble]

99. Here is a very recent link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x514039#514109

Do you believe me now?

[NMDemDist2]

104. ahhhh that was posted by a CANADIAN!

he can't be a democrat, he's a foreigner :(

[Catherine Vincent]

118. Yes, I believe you but that was only 1 DUer.

I wouldn't call the troops cowards, something else maybe but not that. I think the poster was probably upset of all the killing of innocent lives in Fallujah and didn't care what he posted. I do agree there are a few soldiers that are gung ho to kill anything that moves, these are worse than cowards.

[revcarol]

84. I would like to bring up the subject of coattails.

Kerry doesn't seem to have much in the way of coattails.He just doesn't seem to connect up the issues in a way that will encourage voters to vote Dem all the way, and not only Dem PROGRESSIVE Dem.

I want to see him connect up that factory closing in a speech in that town to electing a Democratic Congressperson there.He should SPEAK FOR ELECTING DEMOCRATS AT EVERY LEVEL. He soon will be the HEAD OF THE PARTY. EVERY speech must ask for a vote for himself as the best candidate, but also ask for the local Dem vote and Congressional vote.

He will be dead in the water without a Congressional majority in at least one of the bodies, and will have a tough time if we only have one. He MUST CHEERLEAD FOR DEMS, starting NOW, even if there will still be primaries.He must tell the people, "Bush and the Republicans have made such a mess, I can't clean it up alone."CEMENT THE DEMOCRATIC BASE BY CAMPAIGNING FOR GENERIC AND SPECIFIC DEMOCRATS.HE CAN'T WAIT UNTIL AFTER THE NOMINATION.

And another thing about coattails: WE'VE GOT TO HAVE A POSITIVE BANG-UP PLATFORM FOR HIM AND ALL DEMOCRATS TO RUN ON. This business of "we ill be a kindlier gentler slower empire builder"just won't hack it.many people are seeing through the corporatocracy of empire and won't have it. Too many people are seeing "access" to health care as an empty promise.OUR PLATFORM MUST BE OPTIMISTIC AND POSITIVE. NO BUSH-LITE. Without a positive platform, Kerry will have NO coattails.

rant over.

[Cleita]

85. Kerry wasn't my first choice.

I prefer blatantly honest types like Michael Moore, whom I don't always agree with, but at least I know where they stand. But Kerry it is and FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH????

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. What revcarol said

which is a much more constructive approach than wringing our hands about how Kerry can't do anything with a Republican Congress.

News flash: We theoretically have an opportunity to replace every single House member and 1/3 of the Senate, and no race should be written off. Every Republicanite Congresscritter should have a challenger, and even if the Dem challenger loses, the voters will have heard an alternative to Bushevism.

[BeHereNow]

86. Question for you BabsSong-

WHAT exactly are you saying in this post?
Sorry, but I have read your original several times-
it is very "mysterious," full of innuendo, but of NO
substance.
If I am expected to be intrigued or impressed-
I will need more actual information.
So far, you have actually said NOTHING of
REAL value.
The inference that "they" are paying attention to what we say
here at DU is not that impressive to me.
The truth is in what they DO, not what they SAY.
If they are reading our thoughts, it is of NO actual
consequence thus far.

BHN
Edited for reversal of analogy

[NMDemDist2]

88. LOL BHN did you just read my first response to her? hehehe

:hug:

[BeHereNow]

92. Hey You! No, I did not!

Please direct me to it?
Is your BS radar bleeping too?
BHN

[Avalux]

93. BS radar

bleep.....bleep......bleep.......too funny. :evilgrin:

[Must_B_Free]

120. Who farted?

cause something sure stinks around here...

[NMDemDist2]

94. i was the first post-- i am enjoying this thread

no matter what started it, it's got people talking about the campaign and where it needs to go, so it's ok by me :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. That's because it's filled with so many logical inconsistencies

and anecdotal bullshit how can one understand it?

Nader may be a pariah given the stakes at this point but to frame the guy that gave us product liability laws, consumer protections and pushed the early environmental movement as a money making opportunist when he was broke during that timeframe is beyond the fucking pale.

BTW, we have a credible DU'er whose father actually testified in DC side by side with Nader, in that approximate timeframe who will probably show up to rubut this post and its contents when she has ten minutes she knows she will never get back.

[Tinoire]

168. You again?!

:hug:

:)

[PfcHammer]

91. Speak of the Devil, "Ralph Nader, Employer From Hell"

Ralph Nader, Employer From Hell,

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13141

[salin]

131. Is that Horowitz's publication?

[Dark]

106. Ok, Kerry, here's what we democrats need.

1.) Stop saying one thing and then saying another. I have heard of so many things. I know it isn't important how many SUV's you own, but the moderates, generally people who are to lazy to educate themselves on issues, hate this capriciousness. This is just another red herring thrown out by conservatives, but still, it's one the majority of Americans are buying.

2.) DENOUNCE BUSH! I cannot emphasize this enough!
-Don't be afraid to call Bu$h on his mistakes, he's made tons of them.
-Don't be afraid to say Bu$h took us to war on lies. Don't be afraid to say that he uses 9-11 for political gain.
-Don't be afraid to say that Bu$h is running on creating fear among Americans.
-Don't be afraid to declare the Patriot act an unnecesary encroachment on our civil liberties.
-Don't be afraid to point out Bu$h's sky-rocketing debt and spending.
-Don't be afraid to say that Bu$h is a liar and a cheat.

3.) We understand that you don't want Gay marriage brought up. Fine. But you should bring up the other two issues in this election:
-JOB LOSS
-IRAQNAM

I'm sure there's others, but these would be a good start.

[Guaranteed]

148. Yes. That is a good, solid start.

More than anything, he needs to hold Bush accountable for invading a country that had done nothing to us and was no threat, for distracting us from fighting the real terrorists, and for soiling our good name as Americans.

If he does that, he will win. And he'll be right.

[bigtree]

107. I'll bite

I don't think that those who are urging Kerry to do more in this or that are giving him enough credit for what he is achieving so far. He won't be able to be all things to all people in this campaign. I personally don't think he should try. As ridiculous and infuriating as defenders of Kerry, like me, sound to you, detractors who bitch and moan about style, inflection, quibble over stuff like whether he said mislead or lie, or bemoan him for not adopting their own strident or pointed rhetoric, infuriate folks like me who are as committed to Democratic principles as anyone on this board, and who feel Kerry is setting just the right tone at this point in the campaign. I also take issue with open grousing about the tone or substance of how Kerry presents himself. And the endless complaints about some position he took on some past issue that he won't repudiate, only serve to fuel the opposition and divide our own party. And these same detractors will bitch and moan about a media that they claim distorts and then turn right around and blame Kerry for not getting his message out. I was completely turned off by the comments tonight after the Hardball appearance that Kerry should display that fighting attitude more often. I can't help but feel that these folks don't have the interest in him to actually follow what Kerry actually says every day or how he actually conducts himself, every day. I hear these same folks complain about a single point on his site or in a speech and completely ignore 99% of the rest of his effort or words. Look at Kerry's site. Do a search on the issues that concern you. Look up his speeches. Watch his videos. Google his name. There is an eloquence and depth in John Kerry's efforts that surpasses any nominee in my lifetime. The only peer that comes to my mind that matches his ability and commitment is Robert Kennedy. It's no surprise to me, that those who actually know him think the world of our candidate. And I will not drag his good name into some public chastising. That is the most destructive effort that I can imagine. I won't give quarter to those who spew invectives about John Kerry while claiming their support. I won't give quarter to those who only claim to support him as a 'lesser evil' to Bush. I challenge everyone to reflect on those who were left behind in the campaign so far and try to understand that John Kerry's success has much more to do with the excellent campaign he has run so far than with 'sheeple' or some oblique notion of electibility. I challenge everyone to put aside their differences and openly pull out all stops for John, and leave the griping to republicans. Have a problem with Kerry's campaign and actually want to help? http://johnkerry.com They are anxious to hear from you at his site or at any of his headquarters; less anxious to hear from you in your public grousing. Take that as the strongest defense on this thread. Try to understand those of us who would rather focus our fire at Bush than openly quibble with folks who claim they want John Kerry to win.

[NMDemDist2]

109. you got it bigtree, but when do i get my yardsign?

edit to say, i'm not hearing much bashing here (except for Nader) what i am hearing is a "Bring It On" attitude. Mostly what i read is a "take no prisoners" kinda feel. While I agree that Kerry is doing great, I was so glad to see him come out punching today every sound bite i heard.

I am hearing outrage and pleas for Kerry to sound off loud and clear and I, for one, and starting to see it and I love it!

[bigtree]

123. I just don't think folks actually know of the things he has said and done

so far. I blame it on the media. Dig and spread the word for him.

Here: FIVE STAR CONTACT INFO Activists' Resource Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1413842

I don't know what motivates folks who claim that Kerry hasn't taken the fight to Bush. I just can't imagine that they've heard everything that has been said by the presumptive Democratic nominee.

Here's a collection of John Kerry's words so far in this campaign:
_____________________________________________________________________________________

"We shouldn’t be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in Brooklyn."
_______________________________________

“Under this Administration, America’s middle class has been abandoned – its dreams denied, its Main Street interests ignored and its mainstream values scorned by a White House that puts privilege first,” said John Kerry. “Middle class Americans don’t ask for special favors, they just want basic fairness, and a President who fights for that ideal.”
__________________________________________

“I'd like to know what it is Republicans who didn't serve in Vietnam have against those of us who did. I'm tired of Republicans trying to divert attention from the real issues."
_________________________________________

“One way or another we're going to have a debate about the future not the past. We’re not going to let them make this about a war 34 years ago, when we need to talk about the war today."
___________________________________________

“Republicans like to question the patriotism of Democrats who question the direction of our nation. They put Max Cleland in an ad with Osama bin Laden to question his commitment to the defense of our country. This President came to Georgia to campaign for Saxby Chambliss and didn't say a word about it. Now his surrogates are at it again. Well, I don't think that politics of fear has any place in our country, and I'm still waiting for the Republicans to tell me what more Max Cleland has to leave on the battlefield of Vietnam to prove his commitment to our country.”
___________________________________________

"America deserves a better debate. If you want to debate the Vietnam era, and the impact of our experiences on our approaches to presidential leadership, I am prepared to do so.

This is not a debate to be distorted through your $100 million dollar campaign fund. This is a debate that should be conducted face to face."
____________________________________________

“President Bush gave his speech tonight as if the past three and a half years never happened. But the American people haven't forgotten this President's failed record, because they have to live with it everyday. George Bush's credibility is running out with the American people."
____________________________________________

“It’s no surprise that the president chose to unveil his vision for America at a $1,000 a plate fundraiser. His contributors are getting plenty from this administration while the rest of America suffers."
____________________________________________

“For everyone who saw the President yesterday in Daytona when he said to all of America, ‘gentlemen start your engines,’ I say we need a new president who says to the American people lets start our economy and put America back to work."
_____________________________________________

"George Bush just doesn’t get it: tax cuts for the wealthy don’t make a difference for middle class Americans like Noemi Gonzalez – economic opportunity and the quality of our schools does. Tax cuts for millionaires don’t help the 56,400 Floridians who have lost manufacturing jobs on Bush’s watch, the 115,558 children in Florida shortchanged by Bush education cuts, or the 19,633 Floridians forced to declare bankruptcy last year because of the stumbling economy and failed policies."
____________________________________________

"For Americans who are tired of the politics of attack and smear, its time for a president who lifts America up and invests in the real needs of our country. Instead of a president whose top economic adviser says it’s good for America to send jobs overseas, its time for a president who knows how to create jobs at home. Instead of an administration who believes that the only indicator of the economy is the stock market, its time for a president who measures the economy in jobs, health care and the skills of workers.”
____________________________________________

"George Bush is a walking contradiction, a walking barrel of broken promises," Kerry told the morning gathering.

"As the phrase goes," he said, "Houston, we've got a problem."
_____________________________________________

"I think George Bush ought to leave the ranch and come out and talk to people who have lost their jobs," he said, standing in a balloon-festooned plaza in front of a massive Lone Star flag. "I think he ought to leave the ranch and come out and talk to people who don't have any healthcare."

He accused Bush of telling "one of those tall Texas tales"
_____________________________________________

"I believe what he will do tonight is run away from his own record because he doesn't have a record to run on."
_____________________________________________

"Kerry said he's never seen such "crony capitalism and crony government" or such "arrogant, inept, reckless and ideological foreign policy."
_____________________________________________

He vowed that if elected he would go directly to the United Nations in the first 100 days of his administration to "make it clear that when the secretary of state speaks, he or she speaks for America -- not for the losing cause of internationalism inside an administration obsessed with its own hubris and swagger."
_____________________________________________

John Kerry Wednesday attacked President Bush's foreign policy, calling it "arrogant, inept, and reckless . . ."
___________________________________________

"Coddling big oil, serving up tax giveaways for the wealthiest, and opening up doors for the lobbyists and for the polluters: That's the only mission accomplished by George W. Bush."
____________________________________________

Florida Democrats, it's time to get real. George Bush thought he could play dress-up on an aircraft carrier in front of a sign saying "Mission Accomplished" and we wouldn't notice that our troops are dying in Iraq every day."
____________________________________________

"The largest cost of the Bush tax giveaway will not be borne by any of us here today - it will be paid for by our children," Kerry said. "We're borrowing from Social Security and Medicare to put money in our pockets today - and sticking our children with the bill."
____________________________________________

"We’re not only going to send Bush back to Texas, we’re going to stand in front of a sign that says ‘Mission Accomplished.’"
____________________________________________

While applauding Libya's announcement, the Massachusetts senator said in a statement that it "makes clear the shortcomings of George Bush's go-it-alone unilateralism."
__________________________________________

''He misled every one of us,''
___________________________________________

This is the biggest 'say one thing, do another' administration that I've seen."
__________________________________________

"On issue after issue, George Bush has given America a raw deal, and everyone in this room knows it," he said in the text. "George Bush goes to Baghdad to carry around a fake Thanksgiving turkey while he cuts support for our troops and 40,000 veterans are left on a hospital waiting list."
___________________________________________

"George Bush has shown he has no experience to be commander in chief"
____________________________________________

Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry said Tuesday that President Bush has used the threat of war in Iraq to distract attention from the nation's economic problems."
_____________________________________________

"The largest cost of the Bush tax giveaway will not be borne by any of us here today — it will be paid for by our children," Kerry said. "We're borrowing from Social Security and Medicare to put money in our pockets today — and sticking our children with the bill."
____________________________________________

"George Bush's vision does not live up to the America I enlisted in the Navy to defend, the America I fought for in the Senate, and the America that I hope to lead as president."
_____________________________________________

"(Bush) has squandered the goodwill of the world after September 11 and lost the respect and influence we need to make our country safe."
_____________________________________________

"Being flown to an aircraft carrier and saying `mission accomplished' doesn't end a war," Kerry said, drawing laughs and applause. "And the swagger of a president saying, `bring 'em on' will never bring peace."

[NMDemDist2]

126. altho i did know a lot of those, it is noted and bookmarked

we're on the same side here my friend :hi:

[bigtree]

127. I am a dead dog Democrat

I have a great love and respect for most everyone here. I also have one mean temper. Sorry if I struck you the wrong way.

[NMDemDist2]

128. no worries mate

:hug:

[FizzFuzz]

173. Wow wow WOW

those are great quotes. Worth the price of admission! Thank you bigtree. I guess this is just more proof that the problem is the media.

Maybe rather than critique Kerry's approach, we should ask how to confront the media. The propagandists are making damn sure no-one hears any facts. Or if a fact emerges, they come up with something more titillating or fearsome or belligerent, just to throw smoke.

[PittPoliSci]

110. awesome post! Here's my plan!

Kerry needs to really fight back against the shit that's being thrown at him. He's not effectively disspelling rumors and the bullshit pulled by the Republicans.

[Avalux]

112. Yes he is

this race is a marathon, not a sprint. Keep that in mind - we still have a long way to go. The bushies are throwing what they have now and will run out of gas by November. I'm more than happy with Kerry's handling of the bullshit.

[Must_B_Free]

119. Hey babs, hon - you forgot to say "we're going to lose"

Isn't that your eternal favorite?

[revcarol]

124. Hey, this has been our first chance to say positive things to the

Kerry campaign. I'm not sweating the small stuff.

It's been fun. Especially not to be roasted.

[Wonk]

129. Nah, she just put that in a different thread. Here's the link

to her daily "we're destined to lose, abandon all hope" thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1484162&mesg_id=1484162

Which, apparently, she wants her anonymous powerful Dem friend who's tight with the Kerry campaign to read here? :shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

136. Yeah, that was an ugly thread.

I notice that Babsong only stirs up shit and then never replies to critics. When I start a thread I always keep posting in it because I figure if I start it I should take the time to talk with the people who are evaluating my ideas.

[bigtree]

125. delete

self-edit

[bobbyboucher]

130. My aunt's cousin's in-laws neighbor totally agree,

the Clinton's want Kerry to fail, and they are real powerful insider Dems.

[salin]

133. Not buying.

enough inaccuracies, inconsistencies in logic across the thread, and plumbing for "negatives" to not quite buy the whole story. After reading the thread, am left with an impression that the stated intention and the active intention are slightly different things.

[AgadorSparticus]

134. I'd like to see other prominent DEM leaders come out and debunk

some the propaganda of the right too. Have them help out like those stinking repuke senators using congress to throw mud at Kerry. Throw it right back at the right. I'm VERY happy to see Kerry stand up and fight right now.

[BeHereNow]

135. Blanche Honey, your gentleman caller is here...

"Ah don' wahnt reahl-izm, Ah wahnt mah-gic!"
"Shep, Shep is that you?"
"Who evah you are...Ah have always depended
upon tha kahndness of strahngers..."

Night-night Ms Dubois.
Ya got me ROTFLMAO at this point-
GOOD SHOW!
Tennessee would be PROUD of ya honey!
BHN

[Toucano]

137. Stellaaa! Stellaaaaa! n/t

[BeHereNow]

140. She went to get a lemon coke honey...

ROLF!
BHN

[mitchum]

170. LOL!!!!

Quite possibly the best DU rejoinder ever! Thanks for the laugh :)

[Tinoire]

141. That was some really sick stuff. I really hoped they paid you by the lie

Really transparent shilling.

Take that from no Nader fan too.

But what the hell. It's 2004. Nader is Satan. Kerry threw ribbons not medals. George Bush is the AntiChrist and here comes Flip Flop Kerry with all the PR help he can get.

Geez.

We'll win on those delusions alone.

ABB all the way! Never mind the total lack of substance or the lies.

[BeHereNow]

143. Hey, my friend-

Good to see you.
You have to admit is good to have a laugh
now and then, in the midst of the house burning down.
I will say, THIS thread did it for me.
They must REALLY think we are stupid, eh?
Taking off the my shit-proof boots and going to bed now.
This swamp is crawling with croco-baitors...
(((Hugs)))
BHN

[Tinoire]

149. You are kind... I just couldn't laugh anymore

Chidlren burning in Fallujah and the worst day for Kerry apologists to come out ove somethings a now "nuanced" as ribbons vs medals vs now the generic term 'decorations'. And now this transparent but OOOOOH that smell Skynyrd-type garbage.

:loveya:

Hey Kerry shills! Want my vote? Start back-tracking on 14 years worh of selling Iraq had WMDs to the American people (you can work in reverse and start with 2004 BACKWARDS). Simultaneously, let's discuss the Israeli occupation of Palestine and how the "repentant Europeans" should come crawling back to us over Iraq, apologizing and ready to occupy.

Please. Fire the stupid shills who only insult our intelligence. Please. Get some smarter ones.

[bicentennial_baby]

162. Whew, so I'm not crazy!

Hehe...Some people.... :eyes:


Hi Cass! :hi:

[Tinoire]

169. Definitely not lol

I think Enki hit it spot on in post 124...

A bunch of babble playing right into the prejudices of the intended audience.

I had to read the original about 3-4 times to make sure I wasn't...

:hi:

[Piperay]

151. WOW...

Thank you for sharing that! :yourock: :hug:

[LandOLincoln]

156. Piperay, she's a RW shill. Please don't fall for that

shit, and please see posts #69, #72, #101 and #139--even Tinoire was having second thoughts (at least temporarily) about Wes because a couple of us Clarkies were the first to smell the rat.

[Shakespeare]

161. No, she's not a RW shill. I know who she is.

I can't send her a PM (she's de-selected that option), or I'd chat with her privately. Initially, I thought she was someone else, but something she posted tipped her hand; I won't blow her cover, but I will say that many of you know and like her. If memory serves, she's also a Clarkie, so you guys aren't smelling the rat you think you are.

I don't agree with everything she says, on this thread or any other, but she's not shilling for anybody. She likes to engage in what I suppose you could call "extemporaneous theorizing," and you can usually count on her to stir things up (whether you like that or not is a matter of personal taste). :-)

Babs, if you're reading this, shoot me a PM.

on edit: I apparently need more caffeine. :crazy: Yes, I can and have PM'd Babs.

[Piperay]

166. Uh Oh

Thanks for the info ...

[Hekate]

152. THANKS for sharing this info: here's my bit

I was working for Dean, largely because I have been in the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq-invasion movement from the get-go and Gov. Dean was the first viable candidate to come out on these issues. All along, though, I have been committed to working for whoever gets the nomination--ABB.

I was just at the March in D.C. with my sister and my daughter. It was an arduous journey for us to get there, and it meant expense and missed work and exhaustion. But it was just too important to miss.

It's too bad Sen. Kerry was not there too, because then he would have received a whole-body, visceral experience of over one million supporters -- and potential supporters.

I say potential supporters because we, the American people, desperately need someone to tell it like it is. For God's sake, don't waffle on your record--be proud of it! Reclaim the "L-word" for all our sakes, and talk about what it means in terms of our every day lives.

Tell the uncommitted that we are at a crossroads in our history, because we surely are. Speak up on the issues, and learn to do it in sound bites. Get a speech coach, if that's what it takes.

Issues: figure out what to do with Iraq and then tell us straight out what needs to be done. I, for one, think my country made a huge mess of the place and now we need to help clean it up before we can bring our kids home. We as a nation need to know how we can exit without another scene like Somalia or Saigon. What the Neocons set in motion is not working. We need to know that you can get the UN in there to do the nation-building that the Bush mis-administration is botching, and that there is still honorable work for our troops to do to support that. Let them not have died in vain.

Bite back! Am I glad it's not me who's running against the Bush machine. Always having to watch your back while trying to be pro-active at the same time.

Cultivate your friends. General Wes Clarke just wrote a splendid Op Ed piece praising Kerry's military record and chastising the Chickenhawks for smearing veterans like McCain, Cleland, and Kerry who dare to oppose the Neocons.

Get a roomful of bright interns to research every speech, every policy, everything the Neocons and their pet theocrats say and do. Cross reference the information for hypocrisy, half-truths, propaganda, and outright lies. Then use this information wisely. It can be done. Jon Stewart does it on The Daily Show night after night, and he does it so well that I have given up watching the network news that comes on at the same time.

That's it for now. Again, thanks Babs. I know some of our posters are rabid, and you are wise to hold back some. But I also know the majority of DUers are here to find support and strength to go on working to bring down this unelected regime and restore our democracy.

Hekate

Arlington West, Santa Barbara, California
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Default.htm
click on the large photo of AW to go here and scroll down:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Arlington_west_121003.htm

[RetroLounge]

158. Poop

and more poop...

[Quahog]

160. If Babs is a RW shill...

... she's doing a piss-poor job if you ask me.

Let's ignore the Nader-hater stuff in the original post for the sake of everyone's sanity (why would anyone who loves bush* want to DISCOURAGE support of Nader?). I think Nader is a roach and I have my reasons, but I think ultimately he's of little consequence. If Kerry loses because of the 1.5% Nader might pull nationally, that's Kerry's failure, not Nader's (or Babs?) success.

What this post seems to be saying is that there are Democratic politicians who are tuned into what is being said here at DU, and that it does nothing for our cause for us to stifle criticism of our candidate's campaign. Kerry was not my first choice, but he's the guy we're going with. So now the question is, for those who have not stormed off in a huff because Kerry isn't "progressive" enough, how do we beat the chimp?

I think that what Babs' well-connected-extremely-powerful-and-wealthy-but-totally-mysterious Democrat acquaintance said (or supposedly said) is absolutely spot on. If we aren't screaming in Kerry's face every time he soft-peddles anti-Bush stances, we lose. If we aren't cheering him on in emails and letters and phone calls to his campaign every time he shows a little spine, we lose.

The questions posted on Kerry's web site about the monkey's service record illustrate exactly the sort of approach that will give us a chance in November. His people should post similar questions about a variety of topics about which bush* has lied and lied and lied some more, maybe one topic a month between now and November. Hell, bush* has lied about so many things, they could do one topic a WEEK between now and November.

I'm not too anxious to go sleuthing for GOP moles when I take the few spare moments I can eke out in a day to read and post here. I'm looking for evidence of common-sense thinking about BEATING BUSH*. If a "GOP shill" like Babs (if she is one) is doing an excellent job of helping us get focused on job 1, BEATING BUSH*, then I say let's invite more of her type to post at will.

BTW, I understand that Babs has "another secret" about some alternate identity here at DU. I would only observe that her prose style is markedly reminiscent of that employed by Bev of BBV fame. Think about it.

:think:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

163. Kerry LAY OFF THE GREECIAN FORMULA.....don't listen to your handlers

your white hair is nice...looks great....stop the hair dye PLEASE?

attack attack attack bush!

SEE YA IN DC IN 04! :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[enki23]

164. hearsay doesn't usually make for good evidence

of course, nothing whatsoever should be considered credible on the basis of an uncorroborated declaration on an anonymous web forum, so hearsay isn't really much different from any other testimony in a forum like DU. they're all suspect. especially those which play this directly to the prejudices of their intended audience.

[devinsgram]

165. Kerry, please,please listen

Our country is in the worst shape it has ever been and I've been aroung for a long, long time. Please, don't let us down.

[Laszlo_Hollyfeld]

167. I'm finding it hard to believe

that people here actually jump on this kind of annecdotal balderdash as though it were somehow useful or informative.

[BabsSong]

172. WOW--this is BabSong--Sorry slimy, sneaky little freeper RNC Shill

me couldn't have answered all your loving posts. I post on Eastern Standard time and can't stay up until 5 in the morning anwering you guys. Yes, Nader is a slime and this guy I talked to is a real fighter for people---that's why he, who originally worshipped Nader, can't stand him. And if you note, I said there were other things but I stopped my post and said I didn't wish to share. GODDAMN RIGHT I DON'T and never will....because there are people here who are pathetically predicable and my inbox has glowed from the people who are tired of fighting you. There is a lot of great stuff about Kerry and this man was a 100% supporter; but he isn't goddamn brain dead!! Even Rove sits once and awhile and says "George is such an ass, what are we going to do with him". And if you look at recent inside reports on the Kerry campaign they too are seeing that certain things are not working and firing people accordingly. I'm so sorry they don't have the great advantage of some of your insights---because there are people here who can't exactly see the trees for the forest. It was great talking to a real, living, operating force in the Dem party and not people who are trying to "rule the school" on a website. You don't do any service to people who are trying to get this guy across the finish line. Unless that is, you want Nader across the line. Of all the stuff I had to share, I'm sorry I brought up Nader. But the "person" shared that Kerry can do this or that but the bigwigs, while downplaying the threat, are very scared of the percentage votes he can suck. That's when he told me about his experience with Nader.

[salin]

176. Interesting... but even more so... still not buying.

I can't speak to Nader post mid-eighties.

However my father worked with Nader for a number of years in the seventies - on a number of battles. My father was older than Nader, and already established professionally and very savvy, so the "groupie" explanation doesn't work.

In those early years, Nader was barely making any money - and most that was made went directly into the organizations... especially as we moved towards and into the Reagan era. Donations directly to the consumer protection groups, anti trust groups, etc. dried up. In fact in the area of Anti-trust there had been a number of large law firms working in DC through the late seventies... but by the mid-eighties the work (due to the legislative success of the right) had dried up, and I believe there was only one major firm still doing the work, and it was quickly shrinking.

As a means for supporting the organizations during the lean years - when donations were drying up - Nader pushed the lecture circuit - with money going straight to the organizations. I know this. It does not jibe with your story in the least.

My late father had many "behind the scene" moments with Nader in these years - and what you describe is so off the mark it is laughable.

I can not and will not defend Nader's actions four years ago or today. I have absolutely no first hand knowledge. However I find the rhetoric of "if the system is so broke but folks keep trying to keep it barely alive as it is... and thus it won't change... and thus the only way to "fix it" is to either a) completely shake it up; or b) let it get worse til the people demand real change..." completely consistent (although completely misguided - as often applying ivy towered ideals to the real world can be) with the rhetoric I heard FIRST HAND in the mid-eighties from Mr. Nader - and with what I know from my fathers long working relationship with him. I tend to fall in the "dangerously misguided" camp of explaining Nader's actions - which frankly is consistent with his long (and sometimes very beneficial to the public) career rather than the nefarious, right wing pay-roll troll.

However, when initially reading the first post, I gave a little bit of the benefit of a doubt. Many folks are so inflamed by Nader's behavior - especially the decision to run again - that the invective gets hyperbolic - and it is possible through that heightened passion to re-read and re-write past experiences to fit the current storyline. It is, in that explanation, possible for the person in question (some unknown congressman of reputed esteem) to have written this skewed account that does not jibe in the least with the reality of the time (Nader's early professional work - far before the political forays that have been debacle-esque in my opinion.) However the tenure of the thread after that post... rather played into my skepticism that was raised with the initial (and misleading) first post instead of playing to the other side of me that was trying to find a reasonable explanation for the characterization.

I might have bought it if the explanation was post late eighties - as I have stated - I have no first hand experience from that time forward, and I find Nader's continued foray into the current campaign exceptionally troubling. It could have been as was written. But to put the time frame of the supposed conversation so far back - to a time I am quite familiar with - and then to have the thread as a haven for untruths and "safe criticisms" of Kerry - couched in the "they are hearing us so let all your negatives flow forth..." framework... sorta makes the whole "argument/point" of the thread seem to be very different in intention than appears on the surface.

[BeHereNow]

181. Babs, I will ask again-

WHAT exactly is your point?
If you want to go into victim mode, because some of us actually
do comprehend that the house is burning down, the exits are
closing, and so far not a fireman in sight, including Kerry-
(Nadar is irrelevant, AS is Kerry) then so be it.
Empire is upon us Babs. Perhaps you are financially secure
and will some how escape the fate of the average American.
If so, you are very fortunate. However, the majority of
people are not so blessed.
You post a oblique accountment of an encounter with
a powerful democrat. Well, in case you have not noticed,
the democrats have now morphed into the same creatures
running Animal Farm. You insinuate knowledge of great
importance, and yet because we are so very vicious,
(everyone knows critical thinking skills are now equated with
malice) decline to share anything other than the fact
that someone you had a conversation with thinks
Nadar is a very bad man.
And so I ask again, What is your point?
And how, exactly is anything you have shared
going to help the situation?
BHN

[Joanne98]

175. Message to John Kerry Don't let them define you!!!!!!!!!!!!

[foreigncorrespondent]

182. I'm sorry...

...but I am NOT going to buy into the this tripe without PROOF. Back your claims up with actual facts before posting what is hear say.

[BeHereNow]

183. The poster can't reply to you or me-

There is nothing to prove.
That is the point.
It is all a mysterious heresay with innuendo
of ???
Good theater though, I must say.
Take it for what is- pure fluff.
BHN