"Troops Out...Iraqi's In! ..Troops Out...Iraqi's In.....Troops Out...!"

[KoKo]

Corrupting Kucinich's statement about: "Troops Out...UN In!"

What's wrong with leaving Iraq to the Iraqi's? If they erupt in to Civil War...so what? Aren't they determining the fate of their own country?

Didn't we survive our Civil War? Why shouldn't they be allowed to decide their own fate?

If not...then why?

[FreakinDJ]

1. The Repug rebuttle is this

the insurgents are from the other countries that don't want democracy in the region...... ROTFLMAO

Maybe these are guys that thinks its wrong for Army snipers to shoot women and children.

[the Kelly Gang]

2. correct. But then G.Bush & Co intend to never leave.

[bigtree]

3. We removed the controlling authority.

Those who proclaim their concern for Iraq's soverignty and well-being should not be content to go home and just watch as the country dissolves into a chaotic, bloody civil war. We should work with the international community through the U.N. or NATO to facilitate a peaceful transfer of power and authority by relinquishing to that body responsibility in the disposition of contracts and resources back to the Iraqi people. That said, neither the U.N. nor the NATO will be satisfied to inherit our mess without our direct involvement.

I don't think it would be wise or responsible to just throw everything up in the air in a free-for-all and split. We have the capacity and responsibility to help repair the damage caused by Bush's invasion and occupation.

[KoKo]

5. but "Big Tree" would we have wanted France or Spain to solve Civil War

problems during "Reconstruction?" Was what happened to the Nation during the Cvil War and after...better or worse than what's going on in Iraq? Granted a "Foreign Power" didn't invade the Southern US during Civil War...but the Southerners viewed the North as a "foreign entity" the way the Shi'ites and the Sunni's may view each other. (Yes...I'm really stretching the analogy, here because it's in some ways "apples and oranges" but in other ways it's about letting countries decide their own fates, also.

Should Iraq be allowed to decide it's own fate after we removed the "Dictator" who was so "odious" to the Bushes I & II? Shouldn't those people have the "right to their OWN destiny?" Whether it ends in chaos with suicide bombers or an Iranian style Religious Leader..isn't it in the end up to those people to decide who governs them?

[bigtree]

7. Yeah, I tend to agree. I worry about dictators that we propped up though.

Like Saddam.

Saddam Hussein was, without question, the leader of a brutal dictatorship. As many as 300,000 Iraqis are believed to have been deliberately murdered by the regime in the "Anfal campaign" against the Kurds, and the assaults on the Marsh Arabs and southern Shi`a populations, which resulted in thousands of more dead. 1

Between 1977 and 1987, some 4,500-5,000 Kurdish villages were systematically destroyed, and the survivors were forced into concentration camps. 2

Many of the atrocities took place at a time when the U.S. was actively supporting Hussein in a manufactured revolution against the Iranian government, whose leaders had humiliated Americans in the '70's hostage crisis.

Iraq used chemical weapons in 1983-1984, during the Iran-Iraq war. It has been reported that some 20,000 Iranians were killed by mustard gas, and the nerve agents tabun and sarin.
In 1988, Iraqi soldiers invaded Kurdistan and rounded up more than 100,000 Kurds and executed them. In March 1988, in the town of Halabja, more than 3,000 civilians died from chemical gas attacks by the Iraqi military.

Iraq has been rightly condemned by the U.S. and most of the international community for these and other deadly actions against its citizens and its neighbors. But Iraq did not operate against its enemies alone or without our knowledge, and in many instances, U.S. support.

Nightline, in Sept. 1991 reported that the Atlanta branch of an Italian bank, BNL, was able to funnel billions, some of it in U.S. credits, to Iraq's military. The U.S. apparently knew of the transfers and turned a blind eye. 3

"Sophisticated military technology was illegally transferred from a major U.S. company in Lancaster, Pennsylvania to South Africa and Chile and, from there, on to Iraq. The Iraqi-born designer of a chemical weapon plant in Libya set up shop in Florida, producing and then shipping to Iraq chemical weapon components. The CIA, the FBI and other federal agencies were made aware of the operation and did nothing to prevent it."

The report further states: "During the 1980s and into the '90s, senior officials of both the Reagan and Bush administrations encouraged the privatization of foreign policy, certainly toward Iran and Iraq. They made a mockery of the export control system; they found ways of encouraging foreign governments to do what our laws prohibited. They either knew or, if not, were guilty of the grossest incompetence, that U.S. companies were collaborating with foreign arms merchants in the illegal transfer of American technology that helped Saddam Hussein build his formidable arsenal."

It summarizes that, "Iraq, during much of the 1980's and into the '90s, was able acquire sophisticated U.S. technology, intelligence material, ingredients for chemical weapons, indeed, entire weapon-producing plants, with the knowledge, acquiescence and sometimes even the assistance of the U.S. government."

The New York Times reported in Aug. 2002 that during the Reagan administration, the U.S. military provided Saddam with critical intelligence that was used in Iraq's aggression against Iran, at a time when they were clearly using chemical and biological agents in their prosecution of that war. 4

The United States was an accomplice in the use of these materials at a time when President Reagan's top aides, including then- Secretary of State George P. Shultz, Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci and Gen. Colin L. Powell, then national security adviser, were publicly condemning Iraq for its use of poison gas, especially after Iraq attacked Kurds in Halabja. The support reportedly involved more than 60 military advisors from the Defense Intelligence Agency who provided detailed information on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb-damage assessments for Iraq.

A retired intelligence officer recalled that, in the military's view, "The use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern."

A 1994 Senate Banking Committee report 5, and a letter from the Centers for Disease Control in 1995 6, revealed that the U.S. had shipped biological agents to Iraq at a time when Washington knew that Iraq was using chemical weapons to kill thousands of Iranian troops. The reports showed that Iraq was allowed to purchase batches of anthrax, botulism, E. coli, West Nile fever, gas gangrene, dengue fever. The CDC was shipping germ cultures directly to the Iraqi weapons facility in al-Muthanna.

The National Security Archive at George Washington University has a collection of declassified government documents that detail U.S. support of Saddam's regime. This is the collection that contains a photograph of Saddam Hussein shaking hands with Ronald Reagan's Middle East envoy, Donald Rumsfeld, who apparently said nothing to Saddam about his nuclear weapons program or his use of chemical weapons. 7


Bushies broke Iraq, we should help fix it. We shouldn't be imposing any permanent authority there. The sooner we can get the international community to see that through the better. To stand by and let the country dissolve into chaos would be as irresponsible as the original invasion. The international community won't be satisfied to take that on without our direct help on the ground (troops).


These are excerpts from my book, Power Of Mischief: http://www.returningsoldiers.us/pompage.htm

Download the book for free!
http://www.returningsoldiers.us/Power%20Of%20Mischief4.pdf

Here's my list of numbered, linked references for the book (253 links):
http://returningsoldiers.us/biblio.htm

[KoKo]

8. I understand...but Sadam and his evil sons are gone! Leave Iraq to the

Iraqi's. Why should we "fix Iraq" when the purpose of the Invasion was to "Destroy WMD/Chemical/Biological and to remove the Saddam Regime?

I read your post and understand what you say...but shouldn't people be free to "govern themselves?" That's why MY Ancestors came to America!

We were tired of meddling...shouldn't the Iraqi's be tired of meddling since the "Brits & Lawrence and the rest of their history of being "Apartheided" has come into the equation.

Why are we there? Bush said it was for "Liberation from an Evil Dictator who Brutalized his own people with Chemical Weapons and that he was a threat to us."

He's gone...a raving old man with lice in his hair who's heirs (his sons) have been paraded on C-Span as DEAD/GONE! The Rape Pits are gone and his Brutal Regime is ended.

Why should the USA be the "Brutal Regime" who replaces Saddam.. WHY...tell me WHY???

[bigtree]

10. I don't think the U.S. should be the regime there, just help put it right

Don't fret over me though. You have a powerful argument against U.S. intervention. Here's some help.

Cuba, 1963–today.

Australia, 1973–75.

Chile, 1973.

Portugal, 1974.

Angola, 1976–92.

Afghanistan, 1979–82.

El Salvador, 1980–92.

Nicaragua, 1981–92.

Chad, 1982.

Libya, 1982.

Honduras, 1982–90.

Lebanon, 1982–84.

Grenada, 1983–84.

Iraq, 1987–88.

Iran, 1988.

Libya, 1989.

Philippines, 1989.

Panama, 1989.

Kuwait, 1991.

Iraq, 1990. today.

Bulgaria, 1991.

Somalia, 1992–94.

Peru, 1992–01.

Colombia, 1992–present.

Bosnia, 1993.

Haiti, 1994.

Sudan, 1998.

Afghanistan, 1998.

Yugoslavia, 1999.

Afghanistan, 2001–?

[KoKo]

21. We have a very long history of intervention, don't we? Thanks for the

reminder...sigh..

[sspiderjohn]

4. other foreign powers will try for all that oil -- just like we are doing

if we leave, others will come -- the UN is needed

[KoKo]

6. I think the Iraqi's would accept the UN if we got the hell outta there..

but they won't if we bring them in as part of the "Occupation."

I think the Iraqi's want control of their "Own" destiny. What's wrong with that? Saddam is gone. Let them rule their Country. It thought that was the reason we invaded?

D'oh...was I fooled???

[KoKo]

9. Well FGS! Why didn't they just come out and tell us it was about OIL and

our National Interests in Oil rather than saying it was to relieve Iraq from a "brutal dictator who had WMD and who had used these WMD/Chemical Biological on it's own people?"

Why did they lie to us to get us in there? Unless you belive that Americans are so illinformed and stupid that they couldn't understand why we needed to go into Iraq then why do all these lies. Not ALL Americans are that naive...why couldn't they level with us? Put folks out on C-Span for us "intellectual, pointy head liberals, and get us on board with the program.

They didn't make their case to me...and I think of myself as pretty well informed. And, I have a pretty good education. Not Harvard/Yale here although I worked at Yale as Editoral Assistant back when Shrug was there...but even so all this is O.K?.

[Jacobin]

11. One tiny problem: "We didn't go there to 'free' them"

That's the fig leaf for the conquest as a fall back for the SaddamIsABadGuyWMD,blahblahblah.

We are there since the saudis kicked our military out of SA and we need a large military base to protect our fix for cheap M.E. Oil.

Why is it that anyone (on this board) would seriously believe that those in charge of this country are spending billions to "free" anyone? Does not compute.

[KoKo]

12. Shush! .....no one's supposed to talk about that...it's "morphed." n/t

it's now the "War Against Terrorists who are Evil who Want to Kill Us!

:shrug: Repug Meme!

[KoKo]

13. Are so many happy with what's going on in Iraq? How can that be? n/t

[Kanary]

14. It's taking a long time to shift gears, and grasp this reality

You're right, KoKo, as Dennis was so long ago.

He was dismissed as "unelectable", so his ideas weren't even known, let alone considered.

So, a few of us come along now, when things are blowing up over there (and looking worse by the minute), and the idea is so firmly planted that we have to "stay the course" (freeper mantra), or "clean up our mess" (Dem mantra) that the gears are grinding just trying to grasp another view.

This being DU, when people are shifting from one view to another, there are many who will attack first, and ask questions later.

I've pointed a few to that thread about how our soldiers are surrounded, to help them understand there's NO Way Out of this mess now, except to just get out. But, it takes a bit for the cells to grasp it.

It's frustrating for those of us who are used to this idea, see the horrible situation that is brewing, and can't stand the idea of one more day of killing. For us, it's an emotional thing that we want the obvious end to come now, not thousands of deaths later.

I hear ya.

Kanary

[KoKo]

15. Thanks...what's amazing is, that it can seem so simple, but when the RW

and war supporters get ahold of it, they can distort it so, that we start to question the "simplicity of the idea" that now that Iraqi's are relieved of Saddam, shouldn't they be able to be free to get on with their own lives with just a little humanitarian aid from UN. After all they lived under UN sanctions for over a decade, and survived.

They have Engineers, Lawyers, Contractors, Businessmen, etc. who are highly educated and should be perfectly capable of negotiating their own contracts with companies of "their choice" and paying for work with their oil revenue which was controlled by UN with sanctions. Now that Shrub says the Oil Wells are secure and outputting more than with Saddam why can't the Iraqi's be trusted to deal with their own interests?

Why do we get caught up in this propaganda that they are "brown people" and therefore somehow educationally and mentally inferior to us?

How???

[Kanary]

16. You ask a sincere question.... I think there are many answers

For the dismissable reich wing, it's "We gotta level those (fill in the blank) and show 'em who's boss"

For the head-in-the-sand reich wing it's "We gotta hold the line on those insurgents, so the people can live free"

For the conservative Dems it's all image: "We can't 'turn tail', or 'cut and run', because that would make us look bad"

For the rest of us, especially those of us who so earnestly protested, and have been so sick over what is happening in our name, I do believe it's a sincere sense of responsibility. We are caring people who have some sense of the tragedy we have caused, and want to "fix it". That is laudable, and speaks to our character.

But, it takes another step to realize that it all went waaay too far, and there's NOTHING "we" can do to "fix it". Our presence there is making it worse. We are well-meaning people who are used to the idea that if we mess up and hurt someone, we can apologize and make amends.

To REALLY face the fact that we cannot, at this time, do anything to make it any better, means facing a horrible truth of the enormity of just what we have brought down on an innocent people. I know that I've been dealing with a lot of grief and depression, and I can ill afford the stress those emotions cause. Even other people, who have more resources, have a hard time struggling with these things. Most, I would guess, shove it off at a distance, because we simply do not know how to cope with something of this enormity.

We are a people who pride ourselves on our strength, and our ability to "make the best of it". We're used to being able to figure out all the answers. We deride those who "give up". We're heading into some very strong cultural waters with this issue, and there's going to be much gnashing of teeth. We're having to go deep inside, and struggle with some ideas we've been bound to since childhood. Some of those ideas are not "bad" --- "clean up your own messes". In most cases, that's what needs to happen. But, breaking out of that, when we want to maintain some sense of our worth as people, and admitting that we screwed up badly, and cannot "help" these people, is a huge blow to our self concept.

I deeply wish there was some other answer. I don't like going through this, either.

But, I also don't want to have to see the obvious truth after many thousands more deaths.

We really are needing each other's courage and good will right now.

This sux.

Kanary

[KoKo]

17. Yes...it "Sux" and that our "macho mentality" won't let us admit it "Sux"

real bad...

I get where you're coming from in what you say. If only those who didn't have so many "hang ups" over the macho thing could just "LOOK" and "SEE" what's going on...

That old expression "Might doesn't make Right" comes to mind here. And, another old one "Pride Goeth Before a Fall."

YUKK!

[Kanary]

18. I'm saying a bit more than that.......

While there are some with the "macho" trip going, what I said about me and some others is different. It's that reponsibility thing, and that's not a bad thing. *I* had to go through some anguish to get where I am, Selwynn posted much the same thing, and I'm sure there are others. For those of us who are struggling with that bottomless pit of realizing that there's NOTHING we can do, it's a very hard obstacle, and it's requiring a lot from us in order to cross that chasm. The more understanding we can have for the struggle, the better.

Of course, for those who insist on attacking in the midst of their struggle........ well, I've run out of patience for that, too.

I can't even think of an analogy. It's like a man who rapes a woman, then wants to "make it right"... he can't.. he did waaay too much damage, and needs to leave her alone. But, that analogy doesn't work, because someone who rapes wouldn't have the conscience in the first place. Those of us who are struggling with this as I've described it, are struggling precisely *because* of our strong conscience. It's not a "hangup"

What I desparately wish is that there was more a sense of "we're in this together" here.... but, this is a battleground all to itself.

Kanary

[G_j]

19. there will be an incredible amount of healing required

for ALL of us for years to come. I just hope we can even get to the point of starting the healing because we are caught in a downward spiral and things are looking like they will get worse before they get better. As someone said, Bush has uleashed many 'demons' that are not so easily put back in the bottle. There is no magic wand that can be waved to make it all better. I sure hope Bush and his buddies are tried for crimes against humanity someday, because that is what they have done.

[Kanary]

24. Exactly, G_j....... *Much* healing

That's why it's soooo distressing to me to see people come here and tear each other apart. For some of us, it's taking a tremendous effort just to keep going. We're going to need each other for dealing with those bottle-less demons.

I'm also wanting to see that crew doing the perp walk! Actually, I posted for some info tonight, so I can start writing some letters to congresscritters, because I think we all have to start pressuring for this! As we well know, they're NOT going to do it on their own, but if thousands of us deluge them with letters, it could have an effect. It's an election year, and some of them know their time is up. At least, for our own conscience, we have to do some pushing.

I know I'm not alone in the grief and sorrow that I feel. It's just overwhelming.

Kanary

[KoKo]

20. I didn't mean to make "light of your post." I understood what you said..

more than you might know. Sorry if I seemed to be trite or lecturing. And, I agree with you that not all of us are on the same page in dealing with this on DU.

At one time here, we were all together because we we trying to stop this war and working with everything we had to stop it.

Times did change, and a lots happened since then. Many folks here don't remember the commeraderie that I do or that you may remember if you were here. So for them and the average American it's a process they are going through to deal with it.

It depends on where they are in their acceptance of what we've done as a nation over there, and the reasons and what they felt in their heart were the reasons they could accept for going in.

I have to remind myself that not all of us are dealing with the same reality because I was so against this Invasion of Iraq from the beginning and so upset that I and others couldn't stop it, that I can seem very harsh sometimes because I want everyone to see what I see and can't understand why they don't.

Your comments are excellent and well said...:-)'s Peace!

[Kanary]

30. Thanks, KoKo -- I don't think I thought you were taking it lightly

I wasn't sure about your response, and wasn't sure I had been really clear.

I really appreciate your reply. There's been so much stirred up, and sometimes this place just .. Hurts.

No, I wasn't here to experience the commeraderie you speak of.... when I got here, there was already quite a bit of dissention. But, when the primary stuff started, it got ludicrous. I still wonder if Dems really don't get just how much damage is done to the Party with that kind of stuff. I'm tired of feeling that anything I say opens me to attack, and it pains me to see someone post a thought or opinion, then express that they are ready for flames. I mean, this is NOT the way to further our cause!

Everyone I know personally was also against this stooopid invasion (very strongly so!), but everyone is dealing with the outcome in different ways. Not everyone I know is at the point of wanting immediate withdrawal, but it's getting there.

I *completely* understand your need to have others "see what you see". !!! I feel exactly the same thing. Sometimes I just can't bear to think about it anymore, because it's just all too painful. Believe me, I know exactly what you're saying. It's hard not to just grab someone by the collar, shake, and point to the obvious. :) That's our *own* expression of pain. We just need it to stop. When I saw Dennis a week ago, he seemed more somber than I've seen him, and I have a feeling he was going through some of this, himself. That sense of urgency, and yet.....

I know that you've done all that you could. I give you lots of credit for all you've put into this. I can feel your pull of wanting to change it all. I can very much understand just how much it's tearing you up. :hug:

G_j is right........ we're going to need lots of healing space for all this. I know that I'll need your help, as well as that of G_j and others. The damage to the whole world is tremendous.

Kanary
edited to add..... as I said, I understand your frustration.. if you need, at times, to just spout off, feel free to PM me and let 'er rip....... :) I think we all need to verbally tear our hair out at times......

[IronLionZion]

22. Do you want to sit back and watch the Iraqis die?

As warlords duke it out and women and children are caught in the crossfire. Meanwhile the country goes to hell.

But then we can sleep comfortably in our beds knowing that our American troops are safe. Who cares about the Iraqis right?

This reeks of racism and selfishness. I thought Republicans were the ones who liked killing brown people!

[KoKo]

23. It's Iraqi's dying fighting for their country like our US Civil War and

not our troops killing innocent Iraqi's trying to keep a "fradulent peace" and pretending they are "liberators" and not "Occupiers."

That's the difference. I would rather fight my own countrymen than have GB, Spain, Poland or Ghurkas trying to be a preserver of "The Union."

If you can see it that way. As a Southerner by birth I'm very conscious of what "occupation means." My great grandparents lived through "Reconstruction" and it wasn't pretty in the South of the Us after the War. And many considered the "Yankees" at that time to be "foreign invaders" with the scallywags and carpet baggers who came into make money off the devastation that was left of the South after the war.

It's apples and oranges in some ways because we didn't have an "occupation" outside our borders coming in to the South after the War, but there are similarities in how people view folks "occupying their territory" who don't understand their culture. If you look at Slavery as Saddam, you might come close to understanding what I'm saying in why I think our troops need to get out now! The resentment and turmoil of an occupation leaves scars for generations. That's worth thinking about.

[opihimoimoi]

26. Our Leaders are "Remote Hogs". They want the control/domination

and the OIL.

[Kanary]

32. bwhahaha! Ohhh, opi... you have such a way with mental images! ^_^

Remote hogs, indeed. Isn't that a man thing?

:)

Come, we switch the channel.... :)

malama pono,

Kanary

[opihimoimoi]

35. Aloha Kanary,

Come, we plan for big 5 Day Luau, invite the world leaders, much Hooponopono is needed. We show the World how to live with mo FUN.

Where are the fuit parks, the learning centers, the model cities of new design, the improved art levels, the new gardens and ways to grow food, crops, and animals?

Where are the new systems to allow us a better life, a better world? Where are the solutions to clean our water ways, our land, ponds, lakes, and Oceans? Where is the plan to address Global Warming? The System to deflect astroids? These are serious items and I don't see it addressed anywhere except for some token projects.

These are the real issues not who slept with who and who wants guns.

Its how to make our Planet a better safer place using brains instead of the big stick. Its how to over come ignorance, poverty, and poor voting.

We want fun, we had better vote for it, go Dems.

[Kanary]

38. Ho'oponono, indeed!

That's what I see in Dennis' Department of Peace. There is hope there.

All of those things you list, plus, for me, secure housing. We could have it all, just like you say, if we cut out the silliness.

Time the people made a lot of noise.

Aloha no

Kanary

[G_j]

33. Kucinich's first point in his Iraq plan

http://www.kucinich.us/bringourtroopshome.php

1. The United States must ask the United Nations to manage the oil assets of Iraq until the Iraqi people are self-governing.

[opihimoimoi]

36. A very good suggestion but will the Remote Hogs go for it?

As a compromise, they may soon have no choice but to embrace the concept. Especially if this Resistance grows as it seems to lately,
auwe.(a lament)(shit)

[bloom]

25. Google had a link to a Business Week article

that I think was saying that Iraqis needed control of their country if they were going to make it their country.

(But my browser crashed when I tried to read it.)

That's exactly what a lot of us have been saying.....

[KoKo]

29. Is it the article about bringing back the "Powell Doctrine?" If so it

had me very discouraged about our troops having to be "called back" to "defeat the Ba'athists." Said if Powell Doctrine was used we would only be there 2 or 3 more years...long if we stuck with Rummy's plan.

I want us out on June 30th.

[bloom]

34. No it's - "An Iraqi Solution to an Iraqi crisis?

It's under commentary...






Crashed again. I'm not going to try to open it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. It's a cover story for not the NeoCons wanting to leave the Iraqi oil...

...the NeoCons have no feelings whatsoever for the Iraqis, one way or the other.

[KoKo]

28. We don't hear much about the oil these days, but why else would we be

reluctant to leave? And, I wonder if they really have the oil fields as secure as they say and are "pumping more than under Saddam?" Smoke and Mirrors?

[Kanary]

31. Oil.... plus... military bases

I think they envisioned this as a "jumping off place"

EVIL!

Kanary, wandering off sputtering..........

[opihimoimoi]

37. The Fundies want the End Times but before, they want to: convert Iraqis to

Christianity, change our Laws, flood our Courts with fundy Judges, etc.
The Bushes want the oil/wealth/control.

The Military Contractors want the profits.

Us small town guys get the bill and Death.