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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:02 PM
Original message
For Traditionalists & Romantics who still believe ........................
Edited on Tue Aug-05-03 09:03 PM by KoKo01
I think there are many on DU who "come from where I come from" who may have had bad marriages,
personal experiences whatever....and I think we've always "shared a dialog" even when we have
disagreed....but the political infighting over Gay Rights, and Religious Rights and Political Candidates is
causing us to do the inevitable "Eat your Own" for Dems here on DU. I hope that this won't be seen a trash
of a fellow DU'er....but as a dialog of what a fellow and many DU'ers are feeling today...
If you don't believe in "Romatic Love and Marriage" because your life has been soured by bad experiences. I
have many friends who feel like you.....but you know what! I'm kind of sick of hearing this. I'm okay and
have been in a "romantic and wonderful" relationship for 25 years and more......

yeah....we've had lots of trials and tribulations and arguments and disagreements.....but we are romantic
and we believe in religious vows and and .......hey......yeah! to you cynics.......we "GOT LUCKY."

But, trashing of "Religious marriages" and people who manage to stay together because
they love each other through "thick and thin" and even fighting "evil relatives" and "kid problems" is really
wearing a little thin on me these days.

I think There are many very interesting and challenging "intellectual posters".....who bring wonderful "academic
style" and personal life experiences to DU.......but some folks lately are sounding like bitter harpies who are trashing
on DU'ers who have really good relationships but are here "FIGHTING LIKE HELL to GET BUSH OUT!" Where is our commonality?
Have we forgotten why we are here? Can we not discuss with each other without putting on fightin gear....or reducing our posts to condescension to honest feeling of our fellow posters?

I'm sort of sick of this trashing of us "Traditionalists" by some DU'ers who think somehow if one has a great,
stable, committed relationship with romance and love and commitment........that we don't belong on DU.

BTW: You wouldn't want to know the angst we've had in our own lives, my husband and I, because that
might make you all think that your pain might be shared by others but that we chose a different way than
the " Anger and Bitterness, and Spite" I see by DU'ers who don't have "committed relationships" or those
"relationships have gone sour" and they now want to trash those of us who matter that we have
had some really bad stuff "go down" in our own lives that you don't even want to know about.

I hope we can get back to our commonality and try to realize that while we are a "Big Tent" that trashing one part of the ring's in this circus of our lives today leaves the others with less than a show. We need to operate all together if we are going to get folks to look at our "BIG TENT!" And, be sucessful in getting Bush out.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. What a thoughtful post, KoKo...
I understand what you mean. ;)))
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Romantic people are being oppressed at DU?
Edited on Tue Aug-05-03 09:11 PM by roughsatori
I hadn't noticed. I love to hear that people are in a long term committed (mostly happy) relationship. Do you have links? I hate when people ask that, but I really have not noticed it.

Edited to ad this: Koko, I just remembered a lot of posts about humans being hardwired to cheat on each other. And a few posts that did make me a little depressed in that they implied that desiring a long term monogamous relationship was neurotic.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I agree, I haven't noticed that, either.
I'm a never-married single mother who hasn't been in a relationship in a long time (everyone I meet is either married, gay, seriously involved or a total repuke freeper). I'm one of those old-fashioned, incurable romantics, and I enjoy hearing about marriages and relationships like yours, Koko, because it's wonderful to know that such marriages/relationships exist and that there are people who are willing to put in the work necessary to make the marriages/relationships successful. I admit I may occasionally feel a twinge of envy and "why can't it be me", though, but that's only for just a moment.

It also gives those of us in my situation hope that it's still possible for us to find that kind of love as well (I'm 38 and getting up there as far as "prime dating years" are concerned, lol)! So just ignore those who may put you down for it, and be proud of you and your husband for what you share and what you've accomplished.

I'm really glad I didn't see the thread calling humans wanting a monogamous relationship neurotic, btw!
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Question
Is religion a requirement? If not, then you won't find a more "traditional and romantic marriage" than my own. The only thing missing is the wedding (which we are not allowed to have, in the most "traditional" sense).

I most certainly do believe in all the starry-eyed "love conquers all" business, or I could not survive another day in this wretched world.

I see the commonality. Not everyone, however, does.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Relgion isn't a requirement....but those of us who married in it and are
religious would like to think that folks aren't hassling us because we chose that. If you are in a "non-religious" commitment which is romantic but not so traditional I am glad to hear it. And, I can appreciate that as much as I hope you would have recognition for mine which is traditional and religious.

It's just the balance of some DU'ers thinking anything traditional or religious isn't real today.

It does exist.....Just as "non-traditional," romantic, committed relationships exist.

That others are unhappy with experiences makes me sad......but, it doesn't mean I've done something wrong that I have a good relationship.........My husband and I are both unhappy and angry sometimes but it's what life throws our way and we try to separate it .......some marriages can't do that......the difficulties for one or more partners is too great, but it doesn't mean that one should throw away some ideals because of that.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, of course I do...
If I didn't recognizae and validate your "traditional, religious" union, then how could I possibly expect you to recognize and validate mine? (Which I believe you do, even if you can't accept the idea of my being legally married to my partner.)

Forgive me if I sound presumptuous, but it sounds to me like there's a lot more going on beneath the surface here. No, I'm not asking. But you just sound like you feel attacked in a major way, and feel you have to defend yourself. Goodness gracious, woman, you & your hubby make up the majority of the planet! Nobody's trying to phase you out, and nobody's ridiculing you. Well, I'm not, anyway.

Sure, I've got my problems with religious zealots, who try to ostracize / penalize me for refusing to deny who I am, and for not living by their beliefs. Those are the "religious" people who scare me, and anger me, in a way I can't even begin to describe to you. What they exude is the antithesis of love (especially God's love). All I get from them is nothing but fear, and hate, no matter how much I try to make them understand I am nothing to be feared, nor hated.

So, when you see people (on DU, or elsewhere) taking an exceptionally dim view of "religious" folks, bear in mind that they're likely referring to those who represent a twisted, perverted variety of something that bears hardly any resemblance whatsoever to the true ideals of Christianity.

You know how some people can't see beyond the most "flamboyant," "outrageous" faction of the gay community? Well, sometimes, when you're beaten up so badly (literally and figuratively) by the most vocal, visible faction of a group, the whole group gets a bad rap. (Me, I love drag queens, but I'm not so blind as to be unable to understand why they can freak out the straightest of the straights. :) )

In any case, I have all the respect in the world for beliefs anyone else holds dear -- as long as they don't try to force their ways on anyone else. Or "do it in the streets and frighten the horses." :)

Koko, I do have the same ideals you do -- if it's love, and it's real, you grit your teeth and work through the bad patches.

Believe me, my partner and I have sustained some unbelievably cruel twists of fate -- some precisely because we are lesbians, and some just the quirks of living in this world.

But here we are. Older, wiser, and scarred, but we're still here.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. My marriage is a spiritual partnership, not a property exchange
Although sometimes that spiritual part is a little tough to locate!

I agree with your sentiments, thanks for the post.
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. i think you had TahitiNut's thread
Edited on Tue Aug-05-03 10:29 PM by buddhamama
all wrong. as a matter of fact i know you did. he has spoken eloquently himself about his SO and their relationship.

the topic of his thread was more in reaction to the numerous threads of religions/gay unions-marriage and the origins of marriage itself.

no one is disrespecting you or your marriage.

just making a point that the same LOVE and commitment that you share with your husband, GAY people do too. except they are denied those same romantic loving bonds to be recognised by the Laws of this Nation. And the 'churchs' and their defense of Marriage has everything to do with that. That's why it is important to understand the origins and reasoning behind Marriage.

i am happy for you!
and i understand the being in a loving relationship, i happen to be in one.

but i have to tell ya' it sucks and it makes me angry and i feel horrible that there are millions of gay men and women in this country who are treated less than human.

i'll never be okay with that.

if you must feel as though i'm attacking you for feeling the way i do, than so be it. it would be a shame...

but i won't apologize for how i feel.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. In the big tent
There are arguments. We disagree on things. But thats the big tent. We survive the arguments because we realise that not everyone is cut from the same cloth. We are made strong by our diversity. We become stronger still by challenging each other.

In the big tent we have fights over specific issues. But when the real enemies close in we come together and defend our common humanity. The path of tolerance and understanding is the hard road. We have to find the strength to put our own fears and prejudices to the side when dealing with others. We are prey to doubt and uncertainty. We do not have the luxury of someone telling us what is absolutely right. And yet in this struggle we better ourselves and shatter ancient myths harbored deep in our society.

In the big tent there are many ways of looking at a problem. There are those that lead with their heart and there are those that seem only able to see what fits logic. We have a myriad of ways of dealing with problems and sometimes we fight about how things should be done. Yet this seeming disarray allows us to find solutions that would be lost if we were of one vision.

In the big tent there is a constant roar of disagreement. There are age old fueds. There are people running in every imaginable direction. And yet there is a common thread running throughout. We are all here trying to make the world a better place. We are all struggling against intolerance and hatred. We are all working together, each in their own unique way, to build a world of progress.
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