Harvard and Yale must be proud

[kerryin2004]

If Bush is an indication of the type of education these institutions teach than I have no interest in sending my children there.

[Cleita]

1. Yes, this person is not a recommendation.

They are going to have to tighten up on the legacy admissions.

[sir_captain]

24. This legacy notion is bullshit

legacy is not the issue. i'll freely admit to being legacy at harvard, though my parents have never given them a cent (not that they have a cent to give, but that's a different story...)

first of all, the bump given to legacy admits is very small and getting smaller. second, what you should be concerned about are preference given to DONORS.

my grandparents on both sides were immigrants who worked their asses off and had kids who earned their way to harvard. and then my parents encouraged my intellectual development and i followed in their footsteps--are you saying there's something wrong with that? should i have been discriminated against in admissions simply because of where my parents got their bachelor's degrees?

[Cleita]

30. Donors?

That's even worse. Isn't it? To apologize to you, Bush has been described as a legacy. It seems it's even more depraved. Thanks for clearing that up. I still don't think this dirty linen should be washed a prestigious universities tough. Do you?

[WillyBrandt]

31. I wasn't a legacy anything, but I'll say this

That George Bush was admitted under no standard of merit. Moreover, I'm proud to say that it's far less likely that he'd be admitted to Yale or wherever today...

Even people who don't deserve entrance as the snotty Ivies are usually at least OK. That this moron took the place of a deserving hard working kid is disgusting

[sir_captain]

32. no problem

all legacy means is that a family member also attended the institution.

and yes, giving preference to donors is completely immoral, but almost every private university and college does it. in fact, the non-ivys--places that are a lot more in need of money--probably do it a lot more often

and no, of course bush shouldn't have gotten into either yale or HBS--but he was both legacy AND from a big money family, and so he made it in. and the truth is, there are a very small minority of students who are just like him at pretty much every major private educational institution in the country--but it's not fair to tar and feather the whole student population because of a few bad apples (don't worry--i realize you weren't doing that :-) )

[sleepystudent]

42. Well...

If you are a Longhorn(Univ. of Texas), like most of my family is, this discussion should make you proud. W. applied to the law school with his awful grades from Yale and the school denied him admission and when his father and his powerful friends tried to lean on UT to admit him, allegedly even dangling money, the school said that it could not accept him into the school in any sort of good faith with grades that low. That it would be compromising the integrity of the school. So he went to Harvard Business School.

Since my brothers both went to the UT Law School(one of the best in the nation), this story always makes me smirk and feel proud.

And UT is in the same position as Harvard and Yale-it has a TON of money, mostly from oil and gas interests.

[sir_captain]

45. if we're shitting

on HBS, count me in!

[WillyBrandt]

2. Harvard BUSINESS SCHOOL, friend.

Harvard College gave us Leonard Bernstein and John F. Kennedy.

And at least two DUers. Ahem.

[sir_captain]

5. Tell it like it is, Willy

Harvard DUers unite!

[K-W]

7. yah, I wouldnt want my school judged by the business school either,

Business is a fake major.

[WillyBrandt]

10. It's funny--though B school people would make more money on

average they were looked down upon because they were... what's the word... often... uh, idiots.

[sir_captain]

13. there is no business major at harvard college

the business school is an entirely different entity

but yes, it's bullshit nonetheless

[K-W]

18. Yah, it is the same way here. I was just oversimplifying ;)

We have a College of Business Administration that we affectionately refer to as the Coloring Book Acadamy.

[WillyBrandt]

20. hahaha. I just don't consider B school as academies of learning

It's just schmoozing school

[sir_captain]

22. well put

the only prerequisite is a bunch of nice sweaters

[sir_captain]

21. heh...nice

seriously though--they are truly a bunch of morals-free assholes. i study now in B-school library at Columbia (it's open late...) and I just can't believe the things some of these people say to each other. money really is a religion to them, i guess...

[scottcsmith]

14. I asked this in a different forum,

Does the Harvard Business School teach public speaking in its MBA program?

I'm assuming Bush was out "sick" on those days.

[WillyBrandt]

17. I think they teach it implicitly... but you can't teach a dumb dog

any tricks.

Bush could have gone to seminary school and he'd be the same creep he is now.

[terisel]

3. Yale-Harvard Leadership Bottleneck

We need people from other educational institutions for leadership and let Harvard and Yale focus on preparing people for fields where they can't damage us too badly.

I do think we have an Ivy League superiority mythology that we need to give up in order to compete and cooperate in the modern world.

[sir_captain]

8. oh please

brushing a broad stroke much?

do you have any actual idea about what harvard students are like or are you basing things on tv sitcoms?

well, i'll agree with you about the yalies--they're really good for nothing.

[makhno]

36. Enough with the Crimson circle jerk

Yale gave us Dean!

[sir_captain]

39. Eh

I think the Bush faimly more than balances Dean out...

How about this: if Kerry pulls it out, then we're even? ;-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. Rich boy affirmative action at work

A whole network of test takers and paper writers exists for the rich kids to eek their way through the Ivy League. I live in Cambridge, and knew a brilliant kid that used to get paid big bucks to take exams for some of these 'legacies'. I think years of inbreeding-much like in any aristocracy-have dulled them and decreased the IQs of many.

[sir_captain]

6. i'd like to say

that i didn't know one single harvard undergrad who used tutoring services, and i think we all managed just fine. even WillyBrandt

seriously, i know it's fun to shit on those rich harvard kids, but unless you were actually a student there, you don't really know what you're talking about

[WillyBrandt]

9. Actually, when I was a frosh, I TRANSCRIBED for this idiot rich kid

He'd have shitty papers to do... so he'd record a bunch of rambling crap into a tape recorder, and give them to me to type up. I did little in the way of editing, besides paragraphs, etc. Got paid a decent bit but man what a shit job!

[SOteric]

25. If I were to judge the school

by yourapparent grasp of grammatics, you'd be equally disappointed in the result.

Yes, these are informal discussion boards. When you undertake to defend an institution of higher learning based upon yourself and your experiences as furtherance of your position, it does nothing for your recommendation to fail so miserably at simple articulation.

[sir_captain]

26. oh, wow

let's attack the midnight, dashed off message board grammar...

what grammar has to do with anything is utterly beyond me...

maybe you'd like to attack me for not capitalizing the beginning of my sentences now?

or for incorrectly using ellipses?

edit: christ...you're getting on me for adding in "even WillyBrandt?" for the love of god... this isn't a term paper--do you really think i'm incapable of forming a coherent sentence?

[SOteric]

33. You're not being attacked.

At least not by me. You're blowing a great deal of air in this thread about Harvard, its quality and your experiences there. I simply point out that if I were to judge that school by your assertions above, it would again fail to impress.

I don't give a fig about your grammar, your capitalisation failures or your ability to form coherent sentences. It's that I find it rather pathetic for you to defend a school's excellence in such a shoddy fashion.

If you'd like to be taken seriously in such an endeavor, most folk with any sense will require a bit more effort from you.

[sir_captain]

38. SOteric

I don't know what your problem is but if I were you, I think I'd consider finding a better way to get your jollies than by trying to demonstrate your superiority on an internet message board. I mean, come on. You have yet to make one point that's on a subject other than my grammar in one sentence fragment, all the time not so subtly implying your own not so subtle intellect. Let's have a round of applause: SOteric used the proper plural of the word "folk!"

Perhaps you were thrown off by my vernacular and shoddy writing skills, so let me make this clear to you: I was not in any way suggesting that I am better than anyone else or got some sort of magical education that makes me better than anyone else. I was making the point that because it is a well-known and often discussed place, Harvard has undeserved reputations. Since I am an alumnus of said university, I believe that I am in a decent position to comment on whether or not the student body is made up entirely of Bush-clones or whether perhaps that isn't the case. I was not attacking anyone else, nor was I writing a dissertation. I spent 10 SECONDS dashing off a reply, and then threw in two words after one sentence to gently kid my buddy Willy.

Look, I'm sure you're a fine person and I'm sure we'd get along on plenty of other subjects, but you're way off base here.

[SOteric]

41. If you've failed to take my point,

then I begin to wonder if your reading skills are a bit off... perhaps the lateness of the hour?

I have not implied that you think yourself superior. Though your unkind remarks about the intelligence of those who've attended Yale and business schools does seem to crow a bit with implication.

I am not implying that I feel superior, and believe you're simply put out at my calling you on your inadequate defense of the quality of your school.

My point is irony: you defend the quality of your school and demean students of Yale and students of business. In doing so, you've failed to show any quality of articulation. It's simple.

I realise you've probably spent 10 seconds dashing off your reply, but that's the issue. One doesn't point and mock other people on their failures of intelligence with a personal failure of intelligence. One doesn't berate a poorly researched point with a poorly researched point. One doesn't refute a logical flaw by employing logical flaws.

George W. Bush is a gormless git with humiliatingly bad articulation and grammar. The thread calls into question the education he received at two schools. You defend Harvard as providing excellent education in this regard but you do so using poor articulation and grammar.

I regret we'll have to agree to disagree with regard to my being off-base in this matter. It seems abundantly clear to me. :shrug:

[sir_captain]

44. Ok

I will once again point out that you criticized my "pathetic" effort by using a word--"grammatics"--that as far as I know, does not exist. I believe "grammatic" could be used as an adjective, but you used it as a noun, and I don't think that's correct. My point being, that if you're going to cast aspersions based on the correctness of language, which is, frankly, a pretty stupid argument to begin with, then you ought to at least adhere to correct usage yourself.

As for my unkind comments about Yale: Harvard and Yale have a jocular rivalry, much the same as New York and Boston. I was kidding. Yale is a fine place. As for HBS, well, I never met anyone there I liked.
Sorry. I don't have much use for people whose life is devoted to making rich people richer.

And seriously now--don't you think you're being a mite bit pompous?

[SOteric]

46. Lovely.

My American Heritage Dictionary acknowledges it is not the desired usage, but does pay reference to the use of 'grammatics' as a noun in popular vernacular.

I'm aware of the rivalry. But since you assert you weren't trying to indicate your superiority, it's certainly worth pointing out the tone of superiority by implication.

And seriously now, -- no I don't think I'm being pompous.

[sir_captain]

47. Ok

popular vernacular also allows for incorrect usage of "happily" and doesn't care much about the difference between "less" and "fewer" but it still doesn't take away from the fact that they're wrong. So once again, let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone... (Just for the record, I'm not Christian, but it seems like a pretty good rule to me.)

And yes, it is pompous to criticize me simply because my writing was not up to your (apparently malleable) standards; I think my point that one ought not to generalize about anyone, not even spoiled Harvard students, was a perfectly valid one. Believe me, I'm now sorry that I didn't spend more time crafting my reply, but I didn't know we had so many grammar nazis patrolling around.

I hereby apologize to anyone who was offended that I did not put in the same intellectual effort on my original post as I did when I wrote my senior thesis on the essential topic of brandy snifters. I realize that as a graduate of the esteemed Harvard University, it is incumbent upon me to act with a certain decorum at all times--most of all when participating in discourse with the riff raff on internet message boards. I promist to dot my I's, cross my T's, and do my utter best to avoid dangling any participles.

Look, this is really stupid. I don't think anyone is particularly interested in our squabble. How about this: I will admit that my original reply was shittily written, and the irony that lies therein, then you admit that you're being kind of a jerk, and then we can get back to being comrades in ridiculing the president instead?

[SOteric]

48. I'm more than content to end this

senseless 'squabble' as you call it.

Either you still mistake my point out of ire and hyperbole, or you simply cannot be made to see it.

I find it regrettable you think me a grammar nazi, I'm actually the first to condemn the grammar nazi's. This isn't about your grammar, for which, still, I could give a fig. And I won't even begin to engage you in debate of how popular vernacular isn't wrong in any living language, it's merely less desired usage.

I find it regrettable that you think I'm a 'jerk.' I don't agree. Of course I don't agree. If I thought I was being a jerk I'd have quietly stopped replying to your posts long ago and gone to bed.

Go in peace to mock the resident.

[sir_captain]

49. I didn't say you were a jerk

I said you were *being* a bit of a jerk. There's a big differece. I have no doubt that you are generally a fine person.

I understand your point just fine. As I said, I do, by this point, regret having not put more effort into the crafting of my original post, and I also said that I understand the irony. That is me trying to make a concession to you. If I had realized I was going to so offend your sensibilities, I would have spent all night producing a masterpiece.

As for vernacular: you're right. It doesn't matter a bit. Nor does the fact that there was a sentence fragment in my original post matter one iota either. Whether or not you'd like to believe it, and whether or not you have 10,000,000 posts here on DU while I haven't yet reached 1000, your argument thus far has been extremely snide, condescending, and yes, pretty jerky. I was not criticizing RationalRose personally--I was merely suggesting to her (RationalRose--if I'm incorrectly assuming your gender, I'm sorry) that she not generalize about people, particularly other members of DU. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but make personal attacks, rather than make any actual substantive addition to the conversation. Christ, I tried to throw you a bone, but I guess you're not a big enough person to admit that you might possibly be a little bit wrong. I'd make a comparison here, but that'd be against the rules.

[SOteric]

50. I'm not aware

of having made a single personal attack. I've attacked your position, your arguments and their delivery. I do not believe I've attacked you personally in any way. Please show me where in these posts I have attacked you personally and you'll have my apology forthwith.

[sir_captain]

51. Attacking

the delivery of an argument *is* a personal attack in my opinion. The entire thrust of your posts has been to mock me. You have yet to make an actual point that relates to this thread. If your entire point is that I did not make *my* point well enough, then yes, you are simply criticizing me.

I also disagree that you've attacked my position or argument, because you haven't actually addressed them.

[SOteric]

52. Check your private DU mail

Probably long past time we quit hijacking this thread for our discussion.

[WillyBrandt]

28. In the future, please map words to reality

I don't see how your post has anything to do with sir_captain's point--namely, that people's bitching about Harvard isn't correct or incorrect, so much as it isn't even wrong. It just doesn't map to how the place is and works.

As for "grammatics," I'm not sure what you mean. I've heard the term used, quite rarely, in Computer Science to refer to different formal grammars and parsing algorithms, but don't see how that relates to what sir_captain said, or the style in which he expressed his thoughts. Or do you mean the word "grammar"?

[SOteric]

34. In the future, please be advised

that I don't take direction, instruction or orders from people blowing a lot of hot air about their education on internet message boards. :hi:

[sir_captain]

40. Where did WillyB

give you "direction, instruction or orders?"

you called me on my grammar, and he called you on using the "word" "grammatics." I can't attest to its arcane usage in Comp. Sci, but as far as my pathetic brain knows, "grammatics" is not actually a word.

You seem to think that I am arrogant, pathetic, etc. In any case, please, let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone, you know?

[WillyBrandt]

54. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black

I wasn't the one who used the word (?) "grammatics"

[WillyBrandt]

29. Why do I think of the words "sesquipedalian" and "prig"?

Odd.

[SOteric]

35. Likely,

because either you've no faith in sir_captain's ability to engage in discussion unaided by you. Or, alternatively, because you've failed in your time here to become the least bit acquainted with me.

[WillyBrandt]

53. No. Out of nowhere you engaged in personal attacks,

in a way that flattered you but little, and since both I and s_c were talking, we both called you out on it.

Very simple.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Yes I do-I grew up a stone's throw from Harvard

two Harvard professors were my neighbors growing up. They spoke of this kind of affirmative action for well-connected American and international students. I know plenty of people who have gone to Harvard and worked at Harvard. These things occurred. Maybe you just weren't aware of them.

[sir_captain]

11. HBS is not the same thing as Harvard College

so let's get that straight. They are not the same school at all--imho, the undergrads are much brighter than most of the grad students anyway.

But seriously now, I had the honor of having Harvard as my undergraduate institution, and it was an amazing, amazing experience. Unless you have been a student there, you cannot possibly know the student body well enough to make pronouncements like these. Sure, there are some rich legacy kids who spend their time in old boy's clubs and getting C's in softball political science classes, but the vast majority of Harvard undergrads are incredibly bright, liberal young men and women who earned their way in and don't deserve your derision.

edit: kerryin2004, if you have an opportunity to send your kids to either of those institutions, you will do them a disservice if you don't let them go--well, avoide yale if at all possible ;-)

[WillyBrandt]

12. You forgot to mention how uniformly good looking the students are

[sir_captain]

15. oh yeah

well, actually that was a lie. other than me and WillyB, it was a lot of smart, ugly people. Seriously, my freshman roomate was a world scrabble champion and wore a bow tie everyday.

Remember him, Willy?

[WillyBrandt]

19. I remember his g/f's fat ass--it was so big it could be a text

[sir_captain]

23. heh

i wonder who came up with that? ;-)

[NJCher]

16. the man could not get a subject and a verb to agree

Let alone any Muslim clerics.


Cher

[historian]

27. dont blame yale or harvard

* wasnt there to be educated - he was there cause daddy put him there - does anyone think for a moment that he entered because of his intellect??????

[makhno]

37. Blame Harvard for so perverting a bright Yale grad

:)

[WillyBrandt]

55. Perverting a Yale grad?

I won't even say what comes to mind :)

[uncertainty1999]

43. grade inflation is a real problem

Many students at these elite schools think that they are ALL better than C students solely by virtue of being there.

Private schools like Harvard and Yale have a (very expensive) product to sell. Perhaps this product has changed since Bush was at Yale/Harvard, perhaps not.. but it makes one wonder what Bush's poor grades really mean.