Racism on this site... #2

[G_j]

the other thread is getting too long.

thread #1:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1370156&mesg_id=1370156

[xultar]

1. SleepyStudent, contact mevia private message when you can...n/t

[sleepystudent]

26. to xultar...

I apparently don't have enough posts to send a private message you will have to send me one I guess

And I find it amusing that lalajohns is on here for 4-5 posts and is parroting the long timers, many of whom just jump in with an accusatory sentence dissing whomever and go back to whatever they are doing, then repeat.

G-j, thanks for the positive responses-I am just letting people know the reaction to what I have read on here for over a year. If people don't want to engage that and would rather log on without reading or thinking and just call me names to make themselves feel better, more power to them.

[ParanoidPat]

66. Yo sleepy........

.......Here are the relevant 'site rules' RE; Bigotry

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.

There's a little 'Alert' button on the bottom of every post. USE IT if you think someone is making a bigoted statement. :)

Please don't come here spouting accusations about this being a 'racist' site. It is most definitely NOT a site that harbors racist attitudes! As with any public message board some people will from time to time come here and break the rules in order to 'flame bait' and attempt to divide others with wedge issues. If you see that happening, just hit 'alert' and let the moderators do their job.

[xultar]

126. Hey, hang around long enough to get enough posts to send me a PM

puhleezzzz

We gotta talk. I'm tryin to get the Bruvas and Sistahs here @ DU together for a chat on AIM.

[G_j]

2. incidentally

as an activist I have attended workshops addressing racism and sexism
in the activist community. It has been recognized as a real issue.
Sometimes even the most committed "progressives" find they have baggage to deal with. Anyone who was active in the 60s knows there has been a lot to work on over the years. We've come a long way but there is still work to be done.

[lalajohns]

3. There is no RACISM here...

As a Black person who LURKS on this board I tend to *disagree*
with the original poster who created this thread.

DU is the one of the best message boards on the INTERNET.

[G_j]

10. well they stated

their perceptions. I thinks thats OK, no harm in discussing it.

Personally, I do have a complaint with the Democratic party in general which is not specifically about people at DU, although it appears here from time to time. That is that the 'party' sometimes seems to take the black vote for granted without strongly addressing issues that effect the black community disproportionately.

as for DU? I don't think of it as racism, but I wish folks would make as big a deal over the voter purges in Fla as they do with Nader's 2000 presidential run. I see that as more of a 'tunnel vision.'

[blurp]

112. Not so much racism here, but too much in Democratic party

<i>That is that the 'party' sometimes seems to take the black vote for granted without strongly addressing issues that effect the black community disproportionately.</I>

This is too true.

[tinanator]

21. minimal racism, but a LIVING TON of bigotry

the original post was simply misstated. I dont think there is a valid distinction between racism and bigotry. So many are blinded and manipulated by misguided hatreds that they continue to be victimized as they continue to victimize others. Partisan pursuit of power has no upside for the masses, but it is the bottom line for the foolish majority in these parts. Maybe Im just prejudiced that way? :P

[Terran]

95. I would agree

I don't think I've ever seen out-and out racism here (except the occasional short-lived troll), but I have seen a lot of what I feel is extreme ignorance on certain issues, and it amounts to bigotry. Especially in the areas around affirmative action, reparations, responsibility for the past, and the validity of Black culture, I have seen some outrageous levels of denial and ignorance in the three years I've been at DU. It just goes to show that even people who think of themselves as progressive don't always think alike, and need education in some areas; the debate on Gay marriage has shown me this forcefully, too.

I don't agree with all of sleepystudent's original points, expecially about the nature of "Uncle Tom". But in substance he is right, even if he used the wrong word (which I see he later amended, thank you!)

Dirk

[noiretextatique]

61. you are right about that

at least here folks are not as blatant as in other places. frankly, though, in comparion to some places...that's not saying MUCH at all.

[Tomee450]

83. And as another black person

who posts sporadically but lurks often, I must say I disagree with you. I have often been disheartened by some of the racism that appears on this forum. It really surfaces with a vengeance when the subject is alleged criminal acts of a black person against a white and when subjects such as reparations and Affirmative Action are raised. I am in total agreement with the original poster. I have often left this forum saddened by the racism very evident on a board known to be progressive.

119. HAHAHAHA

you must be joking

[Kanary]

51. Activists and progressives aren't perfect

As you so well point out. But judging by the posts here, they are not only perfect, but anyone who can't see that is a freeper. I'm so tired of all these "If you disagree, you're for Bushwa" accusations.

Of *course* we all have baggage, and aware and thinking people know that, and are open to listening.

What you are saying is sooo important for the whole party to hear and understand.

The name-calling, and accusations of "driveby flamebait" and calling people freepers isn't doing ONE productive thing for the party.

Kanary

[G_j]

68. I hear ya

I think it does well to remember the sixties. There were major issues of sexism within the movement. The 'leaders' were MOSTLY male and females seemed at times to get relegated to the more mundane tasks. It took some pain, but a lot of this was worked through over the years. Today, women are some of the most powerful voices in the progressive movement. Progressive thinkers in general WANT to evolve and learn. Thats why we offer hope for a better world.

[Kanary]

85. You think it's solved?

Sounds like that's what you're saying.

Please clarify.

Kanary

[G_j]

91. well not in politics

for sure that is still an 'old boy' network.

As far as activism it seems women have in many ways become the most effective 'leaders' I think of CODEPINK with Medea Benjamin and others, Starhawk, Naomi Klein, A. (can't spell her first name) Roy, the 9-11 widows and many others. On the ground there is still sexism though less of it, but women have been kicking butt and really getting things done! Maybe I'm prejudiced since I've been working with a lot of women in my own community.

[Kanary]

98. Thanks for clarifying

Now that I know what you meant.... :)

Yes, I agree that women are finding ways to shine in leadership. However, as the examples you cite ilustrate, in many cases, they are working with other women, and not in mixed groups. To many here, that would be dismissed as "separatism". :eyes:

While some progress has been made, the idea that we don't have to listen to each other anymore, because everything's "solved" and anyone who says any different is just "whining", if not a "freeper", just draws battlelines, and increases the distance.

It's good that this is coming out in the open, because it's really clear there is little empathy here.

It's quite discouraging.

Kanary

[G_j]

107. to be honest

I don't feel that DU represents that much of what I experience in the activist community. Perhaps it's because the people I deal with in my life are much further to the 'left'. At the risk of probably offending somebody, I hear too often what I generally consider RW types of talking points here. The sort of 'attack' on PC for example is something I feel started as a red herring with people like Rush.
I've never used the term PC for the way I choose language.
We have to admit that the RW has been able to dominate the dialog and the language we use.



I don't know about the 'feminism' threads here because I've avoided them out of fear of being disappointed at what I might read.
I just have learned to appreciate that there are some very enlightened and bright folks here and try to take the rest with a grain of salt.
Sometimes I'm more successful at that than others. :-)

[Kanary]

109. I appreciate your honesty

I see much the same, and am discouraged.

The groups you are involved with IRL aren't available to me, as they aren't to some others. So, this is our "window", and the view isn't that great.

I appreciate your views.

Kanary

[G_j]

116. I can only offer

to just try to remember that this just one window. I imagine the folks you see Saturday will offer some encouragement. :-)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[G_j]

22. so are we

going to open up a discussion on homophobia?

nevermind, lets save that for another occasion. :-)

[daveskilt]

5. I am a racist

I see the sexism and I see the anti religious prejudice but not the racism so much other than from the few posters who I long ago dismissed as 14 year old white suburban boys who are using their parents computer.

Of course this is through my own lens as a white british guy and some things which are racist in the US, I dont have the context to notice (neither would a black British person I dare say).

I will say right now I am a racist. By that I mean I see everything through the lens of my own cultural context. Hopefully I am aware enough of this to not be prejudicial and to challenge and question my assumptions - but I cannot see the world first hand as anything other than a white scottish male, but I can remember to continually challenge that view as not the only one and not neccessarily a valid view for a given context.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

9. I'm racist towards white South Africans.

but i'm working on it. It's just a gut reaction that I can deal with.

[CatWoman]

17. I'm racist against lying ass Bush enablers

[Screaming Lord Byron]

25. They're a race to themselves.

[Frederic Bastiat]

23. I can't stand the Bruins and their damn fans n/t

;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Racism is a belief that your race is superior to others accompanied

by actions to oppress those races you believe you are superior to..racism is not seeing things through the "lens" of your racce, although seeing things through that "lens" may result in prejudice, which if unacknowledged can result in bigotry and even possible racism

[Triple H]

6. Give me a break...

there's NO racism on this website. Jesus Christ...we're all progressives. If there were even a HINT of racism, the moderators would've deleted any such racist posts.

This is just as ridiculous as the bitch threads. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

I'm not even gonna argue such matters anymore.

[Ripley]

8. Oh, so because it's not offensive to you...

It's not offensive? Do you really think DU is that clean? Perfect? It is simply a microcosm of the world and is filled with people. People have biases whether they want to admit them or not. Racism, sexism and all the other isms...especially geographical biogtry are all here.

If I called you "whitey" would that be racist? I've seen that here more than once.

[Triple H]

12. Back up your argument with some proof...

and I'll take you seriously.

Until then, I'm not wasting my time arguing this.

[Ripley]

13. I don't feel like digging through the archives.

But just out of curiousity...do you think women enjoy being called "cunts"? Quite a few men here have said "we're all adults so it's okay to use that term for a female." How about you?

[Triple H]

14. This is an argument about racism...

not sexism.

[Ripley]

18. Okay then.

Back to my original question you didn't answer. Do you mind if I call you "whitey"?

[Triple H]

42. What makes you think I'm a white male?

I've never given out information about what race or ethnicity I am.

[Ripley]

44. Okay, let's say you are.

Just for a hypothetical. Does it sound racist to you? Or if you like if you are black, does calling you a "homeboy" sound racist to you? There are lots of variables, I know. Who says it, context, etc. But on a message posting board where content and expression are very hard to get across (at least for me) how would you know if someone is joking, being sarcastic, or being racist by using certain words?

[Triple H]

It wouldn't bother me one bit...

in your hypothetical situation, if I were the white male, and I got called "whitey," it wouldn't bother me one bit. Neither terms you have suggested would bother me.

But I'm done arguing. I don't want to waste my time with the first basic assumption the original poster of the racism threads on DU has suggested.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

16. Has a DUer refered to another DUer as a cunt?

Or do you mean in a more general manner?

[Ripley]

19. What general manner do you mean?

How would it refer to anything other than a female?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

29. In Scotland it refers to men, much more than women.

In fact, I've very rarely heard it used at a woman.
It is an equivalent of bastard, meaning a real hard bad-ass guy. Fenris and I have called each other it here, jokingly of course. In Scotland it is about as acceptable as Fuck. I think this is an interesting example of a word being completely subverted.
I suppose I also meant people saying the word directed at no-one.

[Ripley]

35. So you think you're a cunt do ya?

Well, just goes to show how different even white cultures can be huh? Just curious tho, how do Scottish women you know feel about being called that? I don't know any females who would like being called that or even use it (while they do use fuck, etc.).

Thanks for enlightening me. :hi:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

38. Oh, they say it too.

But then, Scottish women (sweeping generalization coming) are as hard as nails. Like I say, the word is most often directed at men.

[Ripley]

41. Learn something new every day.

Thanks.

[EV1Ltimm]

7. i know racism -- and DU doesn't have it. nt

[hiphopnation]

15. I have to agree

With some of the posters on this thread thus far.

First, I find it hard to document racism on a message board where no one knows what color or creed you are unless you divulge such info.

Second, it's not like there's the KKK section of DU or people are slinging racial epithets around freely. There's racism here in a way that it's present in the society, writ large. I think the same could be applied to sexism.

The difference is that this is a board of progressive people who recognize that every human exhibits some form of racism and we're all working on it.

My $0.02.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinanator]

28. excellent proof in the pudding

thanks for your noble example.

[hiphopnation]

32. Ummm

I'm not trying to "school" anyone. Merely stating my opinion about the racism issue that's been so hot on this site that I enjoy and frequent.

As another poster said, just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it doesn't. Same goes for me.

On another note, I wouldn't assume anything about my race from my posting name. Just a suggestion... :)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

34. Don't feed the trolls!!!!! eom

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. What does that mean????

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. oh brother

:eyesroll:

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[sleepystudent]

27. actually,unless posting on DU is my entire life...

And the sum of my experience and you can glean all the info you need from a few posts, you don't know me at all, just like I wouldn't say I know you no matter how many posts of yours I had read.

[bearfartinthewoods]

82. can i ask you a question?

since your black, can i ask you for some guidance?

i know for a fact that i have never used the word nigger as an epitaph. i got into a helluva fight and lost my dealer over his use of it in the 60's. ironical, i don't think i have ever typed the word until i got here and involved myself in threads about hate speech.

i'd like to know if black people are offended by the sight of the word, no matter the context. i type it out because i think the phrase n-word sanitizes the word and it should remain filth. and using n****r just seems silly as hell since everyone reading it, reads it as nigger anyway.

so, i'm asking you and any other black DUers, clue me in please. may i honestly type the word in the circumstances i described?

thanks

[kitkatrose]

103. Okay, black female here.

I think it's okay to refer to the word, like in discussions such as these. I get a gut twinge whenever I see the word applied to any one, regardless of the race of the user. I don't like the word and it'll never be okay to me to use in reference to a person ("oh, so and so's a nigger" or "wuz up, my nigga"). But then, that's just me.

So sure, you can use it in that context. I kind of agree with you on the the last part. :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. I think sleepy student may not be correct 100% in his assertions

but that many of his observations are RIGHT ON.

I do think a few of his observations were taken out of context, but he is correct in remarking that there are several examples if NOT of racism, then of prejudicial remarks on DU and remarks that paint all southerners in a particular light ARE a perfect example.

BTW..I am FAR MORE LIKELY to avoid a person that is INSENSITIVE than a person that is too sensitive.

Your remarks were completely INSENSITIVE.

[Frederic Bastiat]

59. Oh so now i'm insensitive?

Just because I can't stand people that are hypersensitive? Come to think of it I think that is mighty insensitive of you and I would take offence if I were so sensitive.

[mouse7]

30. The "N-word" is not being deleted from all threads.

The "n-word" is supposed to be taboo from DU. It was all over some recent threads and not deleted.

I tried to question why it wasn't deleted. My question threads were deleted.

Matter of fact, my account may be tombstoned for bringing this up again.

There was no excuse for the n-word being allowed to be left up on any threads.

[Frederic Bastiat]

31. Link??

[mouse7]

45. Remember a certain very long discussion about another word?

Look there. I literally can't discuss that topic or refer to it.

[tinanator]

36. ah Mr delete

fear of speech? How niggardly.

[hiphopnation]

40. Indeed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Tha N word is deleted depending on CONTEXT as are other "ISM" istic words

[mouse7]

43. No... the n-word needs to be deleted. Period.

The n-word is one of the few words in this society everyone in the society agrees there is no acceptable use for.

If someone need to refer to it, they can do it like I am right now... refering to it as the n-word, the n-bomb, etc.

[Ripley]

46. Your own words will bite you.

I recall you defending the term "bitch" because rap music had legitimized it. Rappers also use the term "niggar" so why is there a double standard for you?

[mouse7]

50. Because THERE IS a double standard on the n-word.

This society has accept there indeed is a double standard on the n-word because of the disgusting history groups other than African-Americans have in their use of the word.

[hiphopnation]

54. I respect YOUR disprespect for the word

however your perception of its use in society is wrong.

It's still in use today by more than just racist groups. It's entered into the lingo of a generation of teens some of them not even black. The word is part of our lexicon, like it or not.

If you're that uncomforatable with it, then just don't use it and do everything in your power to fight racism.

[mouse7]

58. Because society has agree there IS a double standard on n-word

Society has agreed that African-Americans are allow to use the n-word, and nobody else is allowed to.

White people get no vote on this issue. The disgusting history of white use of the "n-word" mans they get no voice in the discussion.

[Ripley]

62. So when did society agree on that?

And while you're at it, when did Society agree that it's okay to call women "bitch" and they should just learn to like it? Or is it only men that can call females bitches? Sorry, I must of fallen asleep a few years, I didn't know that happened.

[mouse7]

90. If you don't know, try looking it up in reference book

Go look it up.

As to the b-word, it looks like you who's dying to type in your posts, not me. There also wasn't agreement even between the most strident protesters that it would be appropriate to even stop all use of the b-word. Nobody on the 9-10 threads thought the b-word should be deleated all the time.

References are 100% in agreement on the n-word. If you aren't African-American, you have no excuse for ever using the n-word.

[Tomee450]

93. Why would any

white person want to use the "N" word given the baggage it carries? I am black and can assure you that I become very angry when I hear whites using the N word and I believe most blacks feel as I do. When whites use that word all of the bad memories of slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings come to my mind. Whites in the south celebrated the lynching and mutilation of the bodies of the n---ers. I believe the N word should never be used, especially by white folks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. But they USE it in HipHop! wasn't that your justification for bitch?

just more specious logic.

There was an entire book written two years ago by the name. It was written by an African American author...are you saying we should not discuss the book?

[mouse7]

53. Fine. How did C-Span refer to the work and word in question?

I'm happy with the way C-Span handled the issue in referecnt to that particular book.

C-Span did the same I am doing. C-Span used the term "n-word"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Good then call it the"B" word..how about an ounce of consistency from you?

[mouse7]

63. No... it's not the same because you and a few others say so.

You need to convince those who make the decisions regarding word usage like dictionary editors and linguists that a word isn't acceptable for use.

The dictionaries all list uses of your word that aren't considered offensive.

The experts say the your term is not offensive in several usages.

Linguists and lexicographers all agree the n-word is offensive and taboo in all usages.

[Ripley]

64. You just contradicted yourself.

In another post you said blacks could call each other "nigger", never whites. Now you are saying it is taboo in all usages. Which is it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. It's whichever is convenient in the moment...consistency isn't required

[mouse7]

76. Sounds like a white person looking for reason to use racist rhetoric.

You know there is no legitimate reason for you to use the n-word, and you continue to use it.

Everyone in the b-word discussion admitted they didn't even know when it was okay to use the term and when it wasn't.

The n-word cannot be compared.

[Tomee450]

97. Exactly

I have long believed that non-blacks who believe they should be able to use the N word just because of its use by a few young blacks are really just seeking to find an excuse to use that awful word.

[mouse7]

73. Why are you incapable of using term "n-word"?

Why do YOU think YOU have the right to use the n-word?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. I'm fresh out of blah blah blah's with which to respond to repetition

[Ripley]

75. *Snort!*

Good one.

[mouse7]

84. I remember southern white boys using same excuses.

Southern white guy sitting in his confederate flag draped pick-up saying "If they can say it, I can say it."

I went grew up with southern white guys that started driving confederate flag draped pick-up trucks in high school. I've heard all these excuses thousands of times in my life. I was hoping we had gotten past this crap. Apparently not.

[hiphopnation]

94. Curiously...

what is the argument against that logic that you pose?

Indeed, if black people use the word to address each other, why can't white people use it? Eminem is an interesting case in point. It's okay for him to use it because he's a rapper but it's not okay for southern white kids in a pick-up truck to use it? Why not and who gets to make that distincion?

I've seen young Asian kids refer to eachother as "my nigga".

If we all start calling each other it, then maybe it will loose some if it's taboo nature. (tounge firmly implanted in cheek)

The harder you push to control language, the more futile your efforts become.

[mouse7]

99. I've seen the damage done first hand.

I grew up in the South and spent most of my life in the South. It was NOT rap artists using the n-word 99% of the time. Not unless rap artist started driving pick-ups with rifle racks with Confederate flag decals on them.

I have seen those people in Confederate flag-draped pick-ups justify their racist spews because "they say it, I can too."

[hiphopnation]

102. Well

we've all seen the damage it can do and I respect your outrage for any use of the word...really I do. I think it's a dispicable word too.

My whole point here is that the harder you push to try and control and or prevent certain words under certain circumstances the more scrutiny and you are going to come under and rightly so.

Lest we forget, the ACLU has argued to allow the KKK to march.

Keep up your fight and your gumption and your moral outrage at racism in all of its incarnations. Just expect a fight from people when you try to control what they say. It's right there in the first amendment.

:thumbsup:

[sleepystudent]

127. Using eminem is a bad example...

He has never used the N-word in his songs and he has stated that he never will because from his contact with blacks in the rap world, he knows the pain that word can cause. That's why that tape that was released by the Source mag last year I think caused controversy. Eminem knows the destructive power of that word, especially when used by whites towards blacks.

As for blacks using the word themselves, I guess it's fine. I don't do it myself because I think it's an expression of hatred that people have simply internalized. And I don't see black people as niggers. Sorry about that

[hiphopnation]

131. He never used it

in his POPULAR songs but, as you point out, they were used by him on recordings when he was an "angry young teenager".

I stand by the example. As a hypothetical, let's say Emeinem never gained the fame and notoriety he did and was now an "angry adult". I wonder if he would still be using the word.

What about the example of young Asian males? Here in SF you see young Asian hoods calling eachother "my nigga" all the time. Is that acceptable or not?

How about this one: on MadTV there's often a sketch with the one black comedian playing a talk-show host and he's always got on the tall white guy as his one token white guest. Inevitably, as part of the sketch, the white guy nervously exclaims "you all my niggas..." of course to much outrage from the black host and other black guests. It's parody, yes. But how is the word in that type of arena?

My whole point here is that the destructive nature of the word is not what's on trial. No one will argue with the destructive nature of epithets. What's on trial is controling language which is more sticky and perilous.

And I don't see black people as niggers. Sorry about that

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Did you derive from something I said that I see black people as "niggers"? It's odd that you're arguing against use off the word but you use it without distinguishing it from the rest of your text.

edit: content

[hiphopnation]

48. Everyone in society?

Uh-uh. Tell that to:

1. Some southern white males

2. Some hip hop artists

And the harder you push to try and eradicate it from the language the more you'll find your efforts hijacked.

[mouse7]

96. I watched the damage those southern white males caused with n-word

I saw the best football player our high school had ever seen melt into a puddle when our high schools football coach said he was "the fastest (n-word) in the city." At a school pep rally. A mandatory attendance school pep rally. Over the P-A system at the pep rally....

...and people cheered.

[noiretextatique]

67. you gotta be kidding me

some people, including many white people, still believe that word is acceptable.

[mouse7]

92. We progressives are supposed to know how much the word hurts

We are the ones that are supposed to know how much damage the word has caused.

The lengths some people go to defend their right to injure people is just unbelievable sometimes. I thought progressives on a progressive message board would understand. I guess not.

[noiretextatique]

105. everyone here is not "progressive" about every issue

i'm never pleased to see the "n" word used here, i assure you, however, i am not naive enough to believe that everyone who posts or reads here shares my definition of what is and is not progressive. as i said...that word is still acceptable among some, and it's not just among some black people, as you know by now.

[mouse7]

108. Oh... I know. I'm sure that white football coach still justifies it.

Probably says something like, "Hey, I'm not lynching anyone. What's your problem!"

Something like that.

I heard a lot of "something like thats" for almost 30 years. It's a part of the reason I now live 3000 miles away on the opposite coast now. I couldn't deal with that kind of stuff anymore... especially when it had started to get better, then started going back to the old ways under all the Republicans.

[noiretextatique]

110. "started going back to the old ways under all the Republicans"

you certainly nailed it with this statement :hi:

[sleepystudent]

130. Really...

From my experience on here, especially today, I suspect a lot of DUers "progressivism" is limited to posting on here as much as they can. And if you take them out of their comfort zone on here ( and I wasn't actually trying to rile people up-just stating what I saw) then you will have hell to pay apparently. Part of me is sorry I even bothered, another part of me thinks throwing a virtual Molotov in and bothering people with a real issue is better than politely bringing it up bit by bit gradually. And I thought I was being nice about it in the original post, just clumsy with the wording.

[noiretextatique]

132. hey sleepystudent....it wouldn't matter

how you phrased your post...it would still elicit certain responses. because it's not about you or your post, it's the topic.

there have been other posts like yours in the past, and they were met with similar responses...as to be expected with the cross-section of folks that are members here. and no...not everyone is "progressive;" not everyone self-identifies as such.

i am not sorry you bothered...your topic is an appropriate one for a political discussion board, because race (and the manipulation of it for political) remains an issue. can we say "florida?" :hi:

welcome, sleepystudent.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. ooops...asked the wrong person

[mouse7]

106. Yes you did.

You were one of the worst offenders. You made sure you typed out every letter of the n-word on those threads. For maximum effect, huh?

Well, you sure got it.

[bigbillhaywood]

111. Reasonable people can disagree about use of "n-word" w/in certain contexts

Black people can disagree on the subject. As long as this is the case, it's better to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship. Otherwise it becomes PC tyranny. Certainly no one would object to deleting it if used in the context of a racist statement. But if someone deleted a Gil Scott-Heron poem because it contained the word "nigger" in it, would this really be reasonable? Or how about going through every book that was ever written and replacing the word with "n-word" or "n*gger"? Just because you choose not to write the word will not eliminate it from the lexicon. It is a hateful word that should only be used in context of other people using the word as a slur-- but you won't make it go away by not spelling every letter in your posts or e-mails.

It's this sort of PC nonsense that allow Freeper-types to convincingly characterize liberals as Stalinist.

[mouse7]

118. Oh Bullshit! Tired of ludicrous crap being spewed to justify use of n-word

I've heard all this shit before. It was just as ridiculous then as it is now.

It is not "Stalinist" to stop hate speech.

[bigbillhaywood]

128. Use of the word not hate speech if not used in hateful context

And it is very much is Stalinist for the government to stop hate speech (although I think its fine at DU). I have no problem beating up racists for their use of such words (I've done so many times), but saying the word cannot be used in any context is Stalinist, and if you are implying (I'm not sure you are) that it's acceptable to outlaw hate-speech-- this is very dangerous as what is "hateful" is very subjective. If you need proof, read what Freepers think about DUers-- we're all hate-mongers according to them.

[mouse7]

138. It's unconstitional to outlaw any speech

Americans can't "ban" anyone from saying anything.

However, a person that uses hate speech can be sued after using hate speech for the damage they cause.

Also, DU is NOT a free speech zone. People get posts deleted all the time here. Deleting objectional content is not a new phenomenon at DU. Therefore, if comments that Bush tax cuts are good are being deleted because they are objectional to the community, the deletion of the n-word from DU threads should be a no brainer.

[bigbillhaywood]

140. Right, I said I thought DU had the right to ban use of the word in

certain contexts

[Kanary]

114. Questioning is bad

Thanks for the reminder.

sigh.....

Kanary, who is probably close to following suit........ :(

[mouse7]

129. There's nothing to "question" about use of n-word

There is no disagreement. It is taboo and offensive for anyone other than African-Americans to use the n-word.

[rucky]

52. My questions about Democrats & race

Some issues about race & our party are frustrating & confusing for me. I'm not even going to pretend to have any deeper understanding of the black community than any other white person living in a predominately white community - but here's my impression, as filtered through my limited range of vision:

I see only black Conservatives getting media coverage. Condi & Powell, obviously. But even in the primaries with Sharpton - he was never taken seriously: not here, not in the media. and every mention of him - he was either treated like a mascot, or Tawana Brawley was brought up. Jesse Jackson only got media coverage when he spoke out against Howard Dean's confederate flag crack. On the issue of Gay marriage, suddenly we see black ministers coming forward to voice their views against it.

So where are the Liberal black leaders? Is it that the media ignores them, or is there a leadership vacuum in the black community right now? Is it that the issues regarding race aren't meaty enough anymore, because our institutions have found more subtle ways to perpetuate racism?

The Democratic party leadership has failed to confront the more subtle forms of racism that are alive and well in America. They seem to be acting as if we already were in a "color blind" society & racial issues are more byproducts of class issues. I get the impression that the Black community sees this as a copout by our leadership - and I tend to agree. An example of a class issue would be our 5% unemployment rate. A race issue is the 10% unemployment rate among blacks.

BUT (and I could be wrong) I get the impression that the black community is sitting on their hands in protest. I don't blame them being frustrated - much in the same way the progressive wing of the party is frustrated with the party leadership. But voter turnout and visible political opposition seems to be underrepresntative of the problem. In the primaries, there seemed to be plenty of oportunities to vet these issues, but the candidates willing to do so did not do well. Democrats continue to lose the South (2002), despite the large black population. Seems that non-participation is hurting the party. And maybe the party deserves to be hurt - but the stakes are too high right now. Not voting in protest is just as devestating as voting for Nader. Is this an organized effort? A common sentiment? Am I totally off base here? Again I ask, where are the LEADERS?

I think alot of the sentiments we see here at DU is in reaction to the predominant black voices being Conservative ones, and the obvious distortion & damage that is doing to the Democratic party. But until we can clear the air and discuss our own falilings with the black community, I don't see us restoring our minority-friendly reputation in the eyes of the media, the public, and black (non)voters.

[mouse7]

113. No. Congressional Black Caucus very busy, yet gets no coverage

The Congressional Black Caucus has just as many views and votes on issues facing the country as anyone else in Congress. The members put out just as many press releases.

Nobody provides coverage of the Congressional Black Caucus really except Historically Black Newspapers.

[noiretextatique]

121. black conservatives are like other conservatives

the darlings of the media...but more so. the fact that they speak for a tiny minority, as evidenced by voting patterns, is never mentioned.
the black commentator ran an article about the rw's attempts to replace progressive black politicians with republnegroes like denise majette.
as to leaders, i would ask you: where are the leaders of the "white community?" is it bush? or kerry?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

57. I think the point is.

White people don't know sometimes why things they say might upset us black and brown people. It is not necessarily racism but I've read a lot of ignorant shit here. That's OK though. It's a microcosm of society. People don't do it to insult but it might come across the wrong way for some. We are all prejudiced at least at some point in our lives. I used to think all white Anglos were racist and two faced when I first came to this country. I realized all generalizations are wrong, hurtful and ignorant.

I say when you see something that pisses you off. Let the person know. But for people to say we're above criticism here. Because we're progressives and have not seen anybody acting like a Klansman is also wrong. We all say dumb shit at one point or another. Although what may be percieved as ignorance is not always racism or prejudice.

I've given up arguing with people here about some of these things. Like I said before the majority of people here seem really cool. I also think we can learn a lot from each other. Since there is few of us so called minorities here we jump the gun sometimes. Other times we see things others may not. That's all. Probably this is the same way we argue among our friends and acquaintances.

[G_j]

60. something I may have learned

and I'm just one person. My perception has evolved somewhat over the years and this is something I've come to understand. If a person comes to a group with a concern over something such as racism, sexism or something similar, if you find yourself responding before you have at least taken a breath and pondered in your mind what they are saying you may have more to examine than you think.
I have no idea in this case who took a brief moment to think about the original post and who didn't, so I'm not accusing anyone of anything. But I thought I'd put this out there.

[noiretextatique]

65. thanks for doing so...my reparations thread, for example

had a few drive-by posts about "i'm not paying anything"...blah, blah, blah. those responses are contemptous and dismissive...and reflect more on the poster than the topic. it's not that i was seeking agreement, and i actually had a discussion with people who disagreed with me. it's more the attitude that the topic isn't worthy of discussion...at least not without an attitude that both personalizes and trivilizes the subject. i recognize this as a tactic, though i realize some others may not.

[G_j]

77. you found the word

I was trying to get to but that escaped me: "dismissive"
I guess it is sort of a tactic although maybe subconscious.
I get a red flag when its obvious. It sort of puts the brakes on thoughtful discussion.

[noiretextatique]

86. it's most likely isn't conscious

but it's a tactic, nonetheless. i don't think most people are consciously dismissive or contemptuous; that doesn't mean it don't recognize it when i experience it. that's the really difficult part of talking about this subject sometimes.

[Desertrose]

79. also...if you expect or are looking for something...you may find it

where others who are looking from a different lens or perspective may not see it or see something entirely different.


I think it is very unfair to judge what another sees or feels on this board just because it may be different from our perception. Most of us agree we want Bush out...after that all bets are off.....we are all individuals with our own experiences that shape our point of view....doesn't make anyone right or wrong- just different.

Accepting another's right to be sensitive or even insensitive is just part of playing together in the big sandbox.....if someone hurts your feelings you have a right to speak up about it. You don't however, have a right to force that person to conform to your thoughts or demands. If they continue that behavior and are not open to dialogue, then my best advice would be to walk away.

Why would you want to continue to cause yourself pain or hurt if there is no change in the others behavior?? Kinda like beating your head against a brick wall...feels so damn good when you stop.

But there are those here who really get off on the circular firing squads that are so common here...and for those...I say "if thats what floats your boat".

Peace & :hi:G_j
Good one :hug:

DR

(on edit- I just wanted to add that yes, there are the occasional a$$holes who come here to deliberately hurt and end any kind of discussion...they need to be dealt with by admins as in toodle-loo....have a nice tombstone here for ya)

[G_j]

89. so true

and we all have a lens we see through. It's very complicated being a human being and learning to relate and interact with others who have their own perceptions. Language itself can be so subjective that one person can mean one thing and another hear something else.
We're all here learning. I guess one key is to look at the process as an enjoyable challenge. Certainly the internet may represent a new evolutionary challenge in our communication skills. It is so easy to argue and 'flame'. But that also gives us the potential to learn.

thanks DR, nice post!

:hug:

[Triple H]

71. Another thing that really bothers me is that...

the assertions the original author wrote about racism here on the DU. The poster automatically assumed that the whole DU website is racist because of what one or two posters have typed. You cannot generalize a whole website on being racist unless if most of the people on the website were racist.

What's worse is that there wasn't any significant evidence of racism posted. That makes the whole argument not credible at all.

That really bothers and angers me.

[noiretextatique]

78. good points...however, racism is often in the eye of the beholder

and some people may never be convinced, no matter how many examples are provided. this topic, like the topics about women being disrespected here, pops up every now and then.
unlike on some sites, the more egregious offenders here are terminated fairly swiftly. the rest is cultural.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

80. Well in that case.

I think you should hit someone with a chair and Pedigree their ass.........That always calms me down.

[Ripley]

81. That isn't true.

The original poster did not "automatically assumed that the whole DU website is racist because of what one or two posters have typed."

She did give specific examples of threads too....Sharpton for one.

Your anger at her bothers me.

[Triple H]

87. I have every right to be angry

whether it bothers you or not.

[Tomee450]

101. Why should

the original post generate your anger? The attitude exhibited by some of the posters is what many blacks confront often and is why some will never discuss racial issues with whites at all. We talk about our perceptions and experiences and what do we get? Just name calling,denial and dismissal.

[G_j]

100. on the whole

I think the poster tried to articulate their feelings in a respectful enough way. Although they didn't supply links they attempted to describe the comments they had problems with. I agree that it is impossible to paint a diverse group of anonymous people with any one brush. I don't think though that the post was deliberately trying to 'flame'.

[nomatrix]

104. The racist /sexist implication seems to black/woman

how do you feel about 1llegal immigration? Not just mexican, but the flood pouring into our country as businesses move out?

[bigbillhaywood]

115. Supply and demand

Businesses demand cheap labor, at home and abroad. If unions can help control the supply of labor inernationally to demand higher wages from Mexico City to Oklahoma City, then illegal immigration will be a non-issue. An international and labor-based response is necessary. I'm sure Mexicans would just assume stay put and work for high wages at home. And if they did come here to work (assuming global stabilization of wages), not as many people would complain, because they would not be competing economically with native workers.

[carolinayellowdog]

117. Calling the thread originator a disruptor, liar, impostor etc.

Was the most offensive part of the reactions to his remarks. It's understandable when such a thing occurs with someone who has a low post count *and* a recent membership date. But sleepystudent has been here since at least July and would hardly have lurked all these months if his intentions were as his detractors alleged.

Same thing happened to me when my post count was way up in the hundreds and I'd posted pro-Dean sentiments dozens of times. Asked the wrong question about him and BAM I was accused of lying imposture etc. by a newbie Deaniac and then a longtimer suddenly got false memory syndrome and "remembered" me to have posted against Dean repeatedly. Being accused of not being who you really are causes an extreme sense of frustration, particularly when the more you protest the more they accuse you of imposture.

It is AGAINST THE RULES to call people out in this way. So I'm perplexed as to why my alerts on this being done to sleepystudent were ignored. But that question is for another forum.

[Kanary]

125. Rules

Thank you so much for posting your story..... it's not always easy to do, but I would like you to know that the acknowledgement of what happens here is balm to my pained soul.

As for the last part... I sincerely urge you to post that to ATA. This is serious, and needs to be looked into.

I thank you very much for your honesty. You really have helped me.

Kanary

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

122. Horsecrap. The N-word has been left all over threads for weeks.

There was a long "Black America attacks Gay Rights" thread yesterday that was based on ridiculous reference sources (that I shredded).

SOMEONE was going to start this discussion. It needed to be started. There was some incredibly insensitive things going on recently, and people needed to have it brought to their attention.

[G_j]

123. that seems like an awfully huge jump to me n/t

[noiretextatique]

124. bullshit

you are blaming sleepystudent because americans fall for race-baiting by equating "welfare" with black? guilt is a self-serving emotion...it benefits only the person who *feigns* feeling guilty...it does little for anyone or anything else.
americans have no one to blame but themselves for being so STUPID, so consistenly. nice use of rw talking points though :eyes:

[nomatrix]

133. Sleepystudent also said

"I just read what people are saying and am very occassionally impressed."

Sleepy is just looking for an arguement.
BTW, I am a news junkie, and quite often I am impressed by the information posted here.


You said
"americans have no one to blame but themselves for being so STUPID."

Anti-american statement.

[sleepystudent]

134. Well, no...

Sleepy is just looking for an arguement.

Well, no. I was being honest, actually. I guess I shouldn't do that on here.

I'm a news junkie too and yes this can be a good place to get good info, but I am talking about the general discourse on here, which to my mind, has deteriorated. I guess we are all just anxious about November.

[nomatrix]

137. O.K. over 250,000 threads and you

found a couple of what you considered racist comments. Go stand with 250,000 people and see if they all agree with you. I think you'll find a difference of opinion.

You are young so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. The world is a big place, and if you only see a few misbehaving, hit the alert and let the adminstration know.

[mouse7]

139. They were alerted, and they weren't deleted

Lots of alerts were sent. The posts were not deleted after being alerted.

[tinanator]

143. MOMMYYYYYY!

Ummmmmmmm, he said a bad word!!!!!!
Ever had a tail pinned on ya? Must really enjoy spying on your neighbors for the good of the community? Free speech be damned, the world changed on 9-11, right?

[noiretextatique]

135. WELL....I'M "ANTI- AMERICAN"

:eyes: yet another rw sentiment...

[bloom]

136. In reply to the original post by sleepystudent ....

I have noticed some of the things you mentioned, also.

While we don't generally know the race of those posting, I think everybody should be more mindful, as you say.

Thanks for bringing it up.

[Selwynn]

141. Too long? Sleepystudent and I were in the middle of a nice discussion!

[bread_and_roses]

142. The assumptions of White Privledge saturate

every aspect of our lives if we are white (as I am). White people who do not "discriminate" still benefit from white privledge every day of their lives, usually without realizing it. Hard to see the sea you swim in.

It is particularly hard to see if you are poor/working poor white and thus not benefiting much economically from white privledge and also experiencing class oppression. Since we never talk about class in the US, if you are white and experiencing class oppression you don't have a language to explain it. So the likely default is to race...anger at things like affirmative action.

But all of us should pause every time our immediate reaction to an account of racial oppression is impatience, which it often is. We look somewhere, anywhere, for an alternate explanation. Sometimes there may be other explanations, but if rejection of the probability of racism is our first reaction, I think we should examine why that is so.

I seriously doubt DU is any different in that respect, though probably a higher % of the participants here make real efforts to combat racism in themselves and their worlds, to whatever extent they can.

By the time I saw this thread it was too long for me to read the posts(I can't load threads this long) before I responded, which I normally do, so I apologize if I am repeating what has already been said. It is a subject I feel so strongly about that I guess I had to put in my 2cents worth.