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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:51 AM
Original message
Poll question: Is it time to reinstate the draft?
Fact is we are short-handed in Iraq. I know many feel that we should just get out, but I don't think that's going to happen. People expect us to be there 10 years. We need more troops for terra and just plain old national security. Is it time to fire up the draft?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=716016

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's going to happen because Kerry will get us deeper in
the Iraqnam quagmire. He is too vainglorious to "lose" during his administration. Some other president will have that honor, after tens of thousands of our soldiers are killed...........for nothing.

This country is completely mad
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. But Kerry was smart enough to figure it out in Vietnam
Why not here?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. I'm assuming he thought supporting the invasion
would help his chances of getting elected
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. nothing spures youth to learn geography more than a war & a draft
military drafts should be reserved for times of war.

they should include men & women & homosexuals.

i think if bush is elected we will see a draft by the end of 2005.

it was only when body bags reached even the smallest hamlet in America that the people began to pay attention to what was going on in Viet Nam. perhaps the only good that comes from war is that people remember their revulsion to it.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. There are better ways to learn geography!
One of the problems this country has to come to grips with is the increased power of the military, and by that I don't mean soldiers in uniform, I mean the Pentagon (which has now lied us into 2 disastrous wars, Vietnam and Iraq), the military contrators (who now suck up the GDP of half the world and give us nothing in return), and the lobbyists who make certain that government welfare flows freely to both of the previous.

A draft under these conditions is insane. What is needed is a total redefinition of our military and its true mission, and a major cleanout of the Pentagon, along with nailing the revolving door between government and industry shut forever.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
64. Well said Warpy!
A good plan, if I ever heard one.
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snahabed Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Equal rights means equal responsibilities
I don't agree with the draft, but if Bush brings it back, it most CERTAINLY should include women. Any criteria for avoiding the draft should be sex-blind.

And obviously, the military both during war and peacetime should include gays. Obviously. :)
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Fine
When men start going through pregnancy and childbirth, we can draft women.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Most of the Democratic candidates for pres support drafting women
n/t
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. That's the same 'argument' that was used for not hiring women.
:eyes:
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. and as to those young women who are not pregnant?
i assume by your posture that you think women are too feeble to defend the nation.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Pregnancy is voluntary
A draft would be mandatory.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. women can abort pregnencies
it's totally voluntary.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Welcome to DU!!!
:toast: :hi:
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. It'll be a cold day in hell
when I go and fight in Iraq. I'll move to Canada before I fight for oil.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Hi snahabed!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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snahabed Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Thanks
:)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. we need to end the illusion

Here's my argument for a draft: I think that too many Americans have bought into the illusion of consequence-free war. This illusion was one major factor that allowed the Bush administration to sell this war with so little debate.

I would much prefer it if there were some other, less horrifying, way to motivate people to pay more attention, but recent experience shows otherwise.

My parents once hosted a Finnish exchange student for a year. In Finland, every man (and woman? I don't know) is required to serve for two years in the military. I've decided that there are some genuine advantages to such a system:

1) When there is a decision being made about going to war, every family in the country has skin in the game.

2) Every adult has military training, which I assume includes things ilke first-aid, some basic disaster training, etc. Talk about a great homeland security program. It would be as if the entire country was a member of the "national guard".

2a) I'm all in favor of strong national defense: Nothing says "Don't Tread On Me" like a country where every adult knows how to fight.


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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
41. ditto, unfortunately
& I'm speaking as someone who was eligible for the draft in Vietnam (just barely)
As soon as the war ended a lot of 18 year olds stuck their heads in the sand.
I don't think it was a coincidence that all the hedonism of the 80s started a little before the 80s.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Do it now - start the draft
It seems like it is the only way to wake Americans up to the reality of war. Do it already. ASAP.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Is there any way we can send only Republicans?
They wanted the war - they should go fight it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. No.
It has to be everyone, so that everyone knows what's at stake when voting time comes around.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. As a draft eligible male that already knows what's at stake
Sorry, but no fucking way.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Sorry
but this is the price we'll pay for generations, because our parents and granparents were lazy and complacent.

Will we continue to be the same? It certainly seems as if this is the only way to enusre we aren't. I mean not *we*, in the you and I sense, but in the sense of this generation of young people.

The sad thing is that it will probably have to happen again in another 30 years so that those people don't get fat and lazy too.

The war machine must be stopped, but it seems as if people's asses aren't directly in danger of being killed, they could care less. So, lets give them the motivation to look into Barrick gold, Carlyle, etc.

You can always start working on conscientious objector status now, you know.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. No conscientious objector here
If I'm called, I'll fight (though, to be fully honest, I'll likely fail any physical. Complete shoulder repair and vast arthritis already well documented.) That's my duty to this country. But I'm certainly not going to cheer for a draft just to prove a point. That's not fair to everyone that's already gotten the point.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Is resigning the country's fate to those in the war machine 'fair'
to the children who deserve a world without war for profit?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I understand your point completely
I just have severe issues with FORCING someone to play the role of the martyr, and that's exactly what you're suggesting here.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Nah
As I said, those with those wierdo 'issues' about killing other humans can always file for conscientious objector status. Those that think killing other humans en masse can help solve complex problems should ante up, IMO.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Raising Awareness
This is more true than I would like to believe.

I've got a guy that works for me who just turned 19. He's a punk, a self-definition describing his "lifestyle." He's a nice enough guy, a bit weird, which I consider a good thing, but really ignorant of the world.

He overheard me talking politics with a local Union organizer one day about who the AFL-CIO in OK would be supporting after its first choice had dropped out of the race. At some point in this discussion, Iraq became the focus. Afterward, my employee, for the first time, actually asked me a question and wanted an answer. He asked me about a word I'd used, which was, of course, "draft."

He had this bizarre notion that a draft was unconstitutional, so when I went home that night, I printed out the current bill in House and Senate committees that would set in motion a draft. I also printed out a few pertinent news stories. Luckily, he'd learned to read.

He's aware now, and he's a more than a little nervous. He became more so when a fellow employee in the guard was activated. He asks a lot of questions now, and he listens to the answers. A few weeks ago, he registered to vote.

Bring back the draft. Make people notice. Make them realize this isn't a video game.

But, it occurs to me that this won't happen now, not until after November at least, because neoCon PNAC types aren't nearly as stupid as they are evil. The don't want people to be awake.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. That's very true
The majority of both sides -- Democrats nor Republicans -- want's to ensure this little wake up call doesn't muddy the waters, until they absofreakinglutely have to.

And they will. And then we will start to see people care about what goes on in DC once more.

Sad it has to be this way, though.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Make people pay attention by threats???
He had this bizarre notion that a draft was unconstitutional,

Why isn't it involuntary servitude?

I understand that when he U.S. fought in the World Wars, young men were enlisting willingly. IMO, when the U.S. fights wars that the people understand and support, there will be more than enough men and women who will enlist. If there aren't enough troops available right now, maybe it's because the people don't support the war.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. This is *exactly* the reason Hillary brought up the draft
As long as the army is all volunteer, the vast majority of Americans pays little to no attention. If there were a draft in times of war, people would be much more careful about supporting leaders who wish to start wars of aggression.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
70. The Draft as Involuntary Servitude
Obviously this is a complicated question for which there are no clear answers. Put another way, one could make the argument that conscription violates the 13th Amendment. In fact, the argument has been made repeatedly.

The most recent Supreme Court case law of which I'm aware dates from the Vietnam era and deals with prosecutions related to the burning of draft cards and the like. At that time, the question turned not specifically on the constitutionality of a draft, but whether a war's status as being unofficially declared by Congress brought into question the legal status of the then current draft system.

In a denial of certification of the 1968 7th circuit case United States v. Holmes, the Supreme Court made a broad statement and held that "the power of Congress to raise armies and to take effective measures to preserve their efficiency, is not limited by either the Thirteenth Amendment or the absence of a military emergency." I seriously doubt the current Court would do anything to dilute this reasoning.

The current legal justification for a selective service system and potential conscription is premised on this reasoning, which has its constitutional basis in article I, sec. 8, clause 12, which allows the federal government to organize armies. The limiting factor, or check, on what would otherwise be an extremely broad power is the limitation on consecutive funding to two years, which coincides with the election of new representatives and the ability of the people, if in opposition to the presence of the army, to elect those who would deny such funding.

Anyway...my "bizarre" comment was likely a poor choice of words, but it was based on his reasoning, which was that he believed the draft had been found unconstitutional at some point. He was also under the impression that the Emancipation Proclamation had enslaved people, which sort of makes me think of a lot of things he says as "bizarre" notions.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
72. there was a draft in WWII - don't know about WWI
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. My son is eleven years old. The Vietnam War was in full swing long
before I reached eleven and did not end until I was nineteen years old.

I've already told my husband that if the draft is reinstated, then we are selling everything and leaving this country for somewhere my son will not have to risk maiming, psychological mayhem, and death so that the fat cats of the military industrial complex can have their fix of blood, violence, and ill-gotten-filthy wealth.

How much money does one have to have in order to emigrate to a new country with few questions asked?
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. I agree with you...
I have a three year old son. I honestly believe that if we don't pull out soon and turn it over to the UN, that in 15 years, my son will be drafted as well.

I WILL NOT allow my son to go off an get killed in a "war" that was started by men whose only goal was to line their already fat pockets.

I WILL NOT sacrifice my only son to a rich man's folly.

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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bush is quietly re-assembling the entire SSS mechanism
waiting for election day

The proof is in the actual government documents found in Bleachers7's thread starter:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. Your link doesn't work..n/t
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. it works now ... try it again
same thing happened to me
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Still won't work..n/t
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. OK, this one works
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Thanks.. n/t
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ten bucks says draft gets reinstated if Bush wins in November
I'm not for it, by any stretch, but I think it's inevitable.

Under-funding public schooling, job training programs, and community colleges, thereby limiting 'other' opportunities besides the service, plus not-so-subtle hints that Iraq is just the beginning...it ain't too far a stretch, folks.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Twenty says the draft gets reinstated regardless of who wins in Nov.
Unless somebody knows of some plan Kerry has to cut and run from Iraq, there's no way we can continue the madness without a draft.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. We'll just have to wait and see
But this seems pretty realistic to me.
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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. $20? Bet more, it's a safe bet.
and logical too.
More of the get over the ghost of Vietnam syndrome pathology.

As a conscientious objector in Vietnam (1-A-O in 1974), I've thought for years that a draft might be what it would take to wake people up, when their asses are personally threatened by the government.

I had really hoped it wouldn't come to this pass, but it looks like it has.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I wonder if this is why Nader espouses the
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:54 PM by redqueen
"it has to get much worse before it gets better" philosophy.

Seems pretty spot-on so far.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
31. We are faced with a brutal decision here
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM by Walt Starr
1) We cut and run from Iraq allowing things to go wherever they may go.

2) Reinstate the draft.

We must pick one. We cannot move forward without making that choice.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. No more canon fodder!
I voted NO!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I voted YES
but I agree with you. The only reason I voted yes is because nobody who stands a chance of making execuitve decisins in 2005 is suggesting we leave Iraq immediately. Anything other than immediate, unconditional, unilateral withdrawal from Iraq will result in a need for troops via a military draft.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
37. This question has to be asked... to the public.... because it is the
only way we can continue bush's policies.

Do they support the war in Iraq? Do the support additional battles/wars for "the war on terror"? Then they have to support a draft - as there is no way to man such a thing any other way. It is a reality that the bushco (and some moderates) just don't want to admit IS a reality.

Even after 9-11 Bush never asked the country, in a time of declared "war" (on terror), to sacrifice - be it use of resources, be it their tax cuts, be it service to the country. He pushed (and the public ate up) the idea of free-lunch wars. So around half of this country supports the Iraq war (and probably the next war that the admin pushes be it Syria, Iran, NKor, Libya, Venezeula, etc. with the next set of trumped up intelligence) - without ever discussing the real costs - and the biggest is manning those wars.

How we have had these wars with NO talk of the cost is beyond me. The public HAS to start asking this question because it then shapes the discussion about these wars. Do we want these wars at these costs? Many may still believe in them - but at least they will finally be honest about what is involved in terms of costs of war. We have pretended that our involvement in war is akin to watching John Wayne movies at the saturday matinee, far too long.

I am not saying that we should have a draft. I am saying that the question has to be forced into the public dialogue.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
38. NO
the military complex must be starved to death. Quit giving it cannon fodder.
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2bfree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. You have got to be kidding........
Nobody would be wanting the draft if they were in my shoes. I have 2 draft age sons. Why should they have to fight for a war we didn't want. The draft should only be reinstated if our country in in danger of being invaded. I feel for each and everyone of those young men and women (and their families) who have died in Iraq but they chose to be in the military.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Please start the process of filing for Conscientious Objector Status
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:47 PM by redqueen
NOW.

Chances are good there will be a draft. Soon.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Tell the draft board you are gay
Heck, I will even sign a letter attesting to that fact.

They will never question it!
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I've been given this advice frequently at DU
But what to do if I'm NOT gay and I have serious ethical qualms about lying about it?

I don't want to stoop down to der Shrubenfuhrer's level.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Better to be a liar that is alive liar than a dead honest person
In Judaism you can break any law in order to save a life. Saying you are gay in order to stay out of a homophobic military fighting an inmoral war in Iraq is a good deed.
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Could you please tell me where to find this in the Torah?
I'm a Christian, but I also understand that Christianity owes its existence to Judaism, and I would be more than interested in this.

If this appears in the written Torah (Old Testament), I would even have a nice way of explaining this decision to certain freeper relatives.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. It is in the Talmud
Rabbi Murray Saltzman was fond of quoting it during the bad old days of Nixon and the Vietnam War.
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Well, there goes my easy explanation to freeper relatives
But I'm still interested...if I was to obtain a copy of the Talmud, where would I look?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. It will be better to ask where in the Talmud that quote is from
However, there are plenty of Jewish websites where this principle is discussed. Here is only one of many:

Chai on Life
Sermon given May 1, 1998, by Rabbi Barry H. Block

Most of us have learned that just about any Jewish law may be superseded in order to save a life. For example, Jews who strictly avoid work on the Sabbath would break every Shabbat prohibition in order to rush a critical patient to the hospital. We also know that the Talmud proclaims that one who saves a single life is considered to have saved the entire world. Judaism places the highest importance on each and every human life.

As a result, our ancient faith, including its fundamentalist formulations, embraces even the most modern advances if they promote life. For example, Judaism endorses donation of vitally needed human organs. All streams of Judaism welcome the progress of infertility treatment, so that human life may increase. Even cosmetic procedures are accepted, if they are not dangerous, because they may enhance human life.

http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0501.htm
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. fuck your Freeper relatives
I don't have any, but if I did and they got pissed at me for draft dodging, I'd spit in their face. I don't care if they're family, if they think I have to go, they're the enemy.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. I don't think that will work in a draft.
They are looking for infantry, not submariners.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. The military is so homophobic that...
if they find out you went to a drag show or any gay bar, you will find yourself in a lot of hot water.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. that's exactly the idea

The theory is that plenty of armchair warriors who "support" the war in Iraq also have draft-age children, or are themselves draft-age.

The moment it becomes a serious possibility that *their* children might end up in Iraq, they will re-evaluate their position, because suddenly it will have very personal consequences for them.

Cases like yours are the ugly underbelly of this theory. If the draft does get reinstated, then lots of people who never supported the war will also be drafted, or have family who will be drafted.

If the draft gets reinstated, and public support for the war suddenly evaporates, resulting in a quick withdrawal from Iraq, then we "win". If the war continues to drag on anyway, then we lose even worse than we are now.

We've all been cursed to live in "interesting" times. All the choices have life or death consequences, and nobody can really predict the outcomes.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
71. No they chose to be guard and reservists dont even go there
Many kids signed up as guard and reserves to get college educations and work the homeland . They did not sign up for this fucking war so dont even go there. They are being taken back all the time, wounded, with PTSD, and in dire shape.
No, my stepson did NOT sign up to go to Iraq. He tried to get out, and he was afraid of jail.
Dont even go there,
and I do hope the draft comes back so maybe some people in this country get off their butts and start fighting harder against Bush and the horror of what hes already done to our kid and other peoples kids who shouldnt even be over there.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com
Let other people experience the hell of having a kid over there, maybe they will wake up.
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
47. I do not want a draft, in part because of the circumstances surrounding it
It is one thing to have a draft for a war of self-defense (which Iraq clearly is not). I would willingly serve such a draft.

But conscientious objector status needs to be broadened, especially considering that the draft would be for a war of aggression. Currently, they ask questions like "If Hitler invaded the United States, would you fight the invasion?" Such loaded questions lump people like me in with freepers. The military needs to recognize the difference.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. that approach will go nowhere
It will go nowhere because the official position is that this *is* a war of self-defense. Just like VietNam was officially a war of self-defense.

If you can convince people that this is *not* self-defense, then support will evaporate as a natural consequence.


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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
51. No, it's time for us to stop invading countries
in blatant defiance of international law, while thumbing our nose at the entire world community.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
61. No draft! Out now!
Iraq is a disaster. Our only option is at what point in the disaster do we get out. Why bleed for Halliburton?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. DRAFT Timeline
The following timeline gives you the main events indicating the resumption of the military draft. According to this, the draft will be needed to maintain troop levels in Iraq past March 2005, barring double deployments. $28 million is allocated by the Selective Service to reduce activation time from the current 8 months to 75 days by March 31, 2005. If Bush asks Congress on April 1, 2005 to reinstate conscription, the first Draft Lottery could be June 15, 2005. A Medical Draft and a new Special Skills Draft would also be activated automatically. Kerry says no draft, vote Bush out before its too late!

Impending Draft Timeline


1994 – The Grand Chessboard by Zbignew Brzezinski compares Central Asia to a chess game with Russia and China--which must eventually result in an American “win”. Control of the world’s oil supply and dominance in the 21st Century is at stake, as cheap oil ends in the 2010s. Noting that the Central Asian Republics are infinitely more important than any other region--save the Mideast--because “an enormous concentration of natural gas and oil reserves is located in the region, in addition to important minerals, including gold… Any successful American policy must focus on Eurasia as a whole and be guided by a Geostrategic design…That puts a premium on maneuver and manipulation in order to prevent the emergence of a hostile coalition that could eventually seek to challenge America's primacy…"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465027261/102-5321285-9753763?v=glance



1990s – “Project For A New American Century” and other right-wing organizations develop strategy for a “uni-polar world” ruled by the United States with many US bases in the Mideast and Central Asia. Invading Iraq and controlling the world’s oil supply becomes the Neo-Con manifesto.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html

http://www.presentdanger.org/pdf/frontier/1031neocon.pdf

Article by Will Pitt: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf



September 11, 2001 – The 9-11 Attack. A “War on Terror” is begun by Bush with the agreement of the Congress. In the mission of the Selective Service, it is stated that the Volunteer Army is only intended for peacetime. In case of war, the nation may turn to the Selective Service. That is why it must always be kept as an option, even if dormant.



January 8, 2002 - On January 8, 2002, President Bush signed the No Child Left Behind Act, supposedly to provide accountability education policies. Yet hidden within the 670-page piece of legislation is Section 9528: “…each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings.” All schools must comply with this unfunded mandate or they lose their federal funding. This amounts to legislated blackmail for student names. The act also says: “A secondary school student or the parent of the student may request that the student’s name, address, and telephone listing … not be released without prior written parental consent, and the local educational agency or private school shall notify parents of the option to make a request and shall comply with any request.”

http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/index.html



Early 2003 - Iraq War, 250,000 out of 480,000 active-duty troops deployed, conquer Iraq within a few weeks. Yet the U.S. has no plan ready for reconstruction or democracy and Iraqis, happy at liberation from Saddam, grow sour at the slow pace, the continued lack of electricity and fuel and the isolated civil control of the CPA. Garner soon replaced by Bremer who is no better at speeding up Reconstruction, and the resistance grows with disaffected Iraqis, old regrouped Baathists and new foreign fighters. Except for the British, substantial foreign troops are impossible, given Bush’s desire to keep total control of Iraq. The lack of diplomacy, planning and incompetence adds years to the time high US troop levels will be needed to maintain control of Iraq and rebuild and exploit its oilfields.



Summer 2003 – Philadelphia Draft Board members “unexpectedly” told to recruit new members for Board vacancies during Summer training. (from Nov. 3 Salon article)

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/03/draft/index_np.html



July 25, 2003 – World Net Daily article on plans for the medical draft (HCPDS). System could draft up to 80,000 doctors, nurses and specialists, men and women.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33754



September 3, 2003 – The Congressional Budget Office warns that “the Army lacks sufficient active-duty forces to maintain its current level of nearly 150,000 troops in Iraq beyond next spring (march 2004). "The Army does not have enough active-duty component forces to simultaneously maintain the occupation at its current size, limit deployments to one year, and sustain all of its other commitments" http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16689-2003Sep2?language=printer



September 23, 2003 – Draft Board Recruitment ad appears on Defense.Link site. First public ad for Draft Boards in decades. Page scrubbed within a few days of being noticed by some media in early November. Spokesman says there is “no plan” to reinstate draft, which must be authorized by Congress. http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/draft-boards.htm



October 16, 2003 – Donald Rumsfeld memo leaks, saying Iraq “will be a long, hard slog”. www.usatoday.com/news/washington/ executive/rumsfeld-memo.htm



Nov. 4, 2003 – NY Times article on Army Honor Guard Company B being sent to MidEast, revealing how thin troops are being stretched to cover the 2004-2005 rotation.

http://villagenews.weblogger.com/stories/storyReader$10007



Nov. 5, 2003 – Toronto Star article quotes Ned Lebow “This (draft board ad) is significant”, Lebow, a presidential scholar at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire and former professor of strategy at the National War College in Washington, adds, "What the department of defence is doing is creating the infrastructure to make the draft a viable option should the administration wish to go this route." http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1068073289288&call_pageid=968332188854



Nov. 5, 2003 – Guardian article on Draft Board ad. SSS spokesman Amon said 80% of 11,000 Draft Board slots are vacant. (2,000 local boards, over 8,000 empty seats) http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077906,00.html



Nov. 12, 2003 – “If President Bush is re-elected, it is likely that he will reinstate the draft. The war on terrorism will not end in Iraq, but instead will proceed into countries like Syria and Iran," said Daniel Ellsberg, of Pentagon Papers fame. http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/11122003/news/60246.htm



November, 2003 – Selective Service 2004 “Performance Plan” summarizes how $28 million will be allocated in 2004 to reduce draft activation time from current 8 months to just 75 days. Nation-wide Readiness Exercises, testing the Draft Lottery and examination system, as well as gearing up the Medical Draft (3.4 million doctors and nurses, men and women age 20-44 are eligible). Ominously, the Alternative Service delivery system for Conscientious Objectors is readied for the first time in decades, with the SSS being funded to compile lists of available Alternative Service jobs for those who win non-military CO status. All systems will be pushed to reach 95% readiness during 2004.

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html



Nov. 23, 2003 – Boston Globe article: “Army Reserve battling an exodus
War is seen as drain on ranks. The US Army Reserve fell short of its reenlistment goals this fiscal year, underscoring Pentagon fears that the protracted conflict in Iraq could cause a crippling exodus from the armed services.”
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/11/23/army_reserve_battling_an_exodus/



Nov. 24, 2003 – NY Times: Army plans for 100,000 troops until 2006 in Iraq.

http://www.iht.com/articles/118775.html



Nov. 26, 2003 – Ron Paul (R-TX) says “Draft likely to be reinstated”. http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul144.html



December, 2003 - Draft Board Recruitment ad re-appears on the Selective Service Home Page with 2 new sentences stressing the ad has “NO connection” to Iraq. http://www.sss.gov



Dec. 4, 2003 – Ted Rall predicts Bush will “have to bring back the draft.” Notes 8,000 empty Draft Board seats to be filled by Spring 2005. Wonders about a “February (2005) Surprise” if Bush is re-elected. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&ncid=742&e=7&u=/uclicktext/20031204/cm_ucru/acolddraft



December 22, 2003 – In an article entitled “Beware of Attempts to Revive Military Draft,” Newsday reports that “the Center on Conscience and War… executive director, J. E. McNeil… has heard of rumblings, from the Republican side of the aisle in Congress, about a draft after the election”. The opinion piece worries whether a revived draft “would give this war-without-end presidency an endless source of warm bodies to pursue its cowboy foreign policy.” Author Keeler also wonders about a “February (2005) Surprise”.

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpkee223594883dec22,0,6735184.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines



December, 2003 - The Selective Service Register magazine talks about the new Special Skill Draft, a top priority for Director Lewis Brodsky. Like the Medical Draft, the Special Skills Draft will induct men and women up to age 44 if they have needed DoD skills like computer expertise, engineering or they are a linguist. As with the health care draftees, no medical deferments are allowed except for total disability. Anyone with these skills will have to register with the SSS if Bush is re-elected and asks Congress for this. Moving quickly!

http://www.sss.gov/PDFs/NovDec2003-Register.pdf (go to P. 6) – from sss.gov home page



December 29, 2003 - WP article: “Army Stops Many Soldiers From Quitting, Orders Extend Enlistments to Curtail Troop Shortages” 40,000 soldiers and Guard put on Stop-Loss. A “Draft Per Se” already exists! With the new stop-loss orders the Armed Forces actually go 20,000 past 480,000 active troops, to 500,000 active troops, the maximum before Congress steps in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36979-2003Dec28.html
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bbbear Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
67. The Draft
Yes! But only draft those from families who were/are pro Bush and his invasion of Iraq.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Welcome to DU!!!
:hi:
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