Should women be forced to cover their breasts?

[DrWeird]

In the christian world, it is considered obscene for a woman to expose her breasts in public. In fact, it was only until relatively recently that a woman's arms and legs were also considered obscene when exposed. Not only is this the cultural tradition, many christian nations further oppress their women by enforcing laws which prevent them from showing their breasts in public. In one such country, the United States of America, some one hundred fifty million women are forced to cover their breasts, while the men can go shirtless at will. In fact, during a religious festival, which they call 'mardi gras' a crack team of law enforcers roams the streets to arrest any woman who exposes her breasts. Recently, and American television station accidently aired an exposed breast on live TV and outrage spread across the country. Millions of fundamentalists christians were outraged that this seemingly innocuos part of the human anatomy would be shown. "How am I going to explain breasts to my daughter?" many americans were quoted as saying. Indeed, in accordance with public sentiment, the radical fundamentalist government is using its morality police to crack down on any such behaviour. Some believe this exposed breast is being used as an excuse to silence political opposition. In one western european nation, the covering of breasts was outlawed in pubic schools. Proponents of the law cited their commitment to equal rights, and wrote the law in order to ensure such sexist oppression wouldn't occur in their country. Says one public official, "show us your breasts, or you can't go to school."

[WillParkinson]

1. I am of the opinion...

That no, they should not be forced to cover their breasts. Any more than a man should be forced to cover his genitals.

Why?

It's a big deal because we MAKE it a big deal. If people were comfortable with their bodies this never would have happened. People need to realize we ALL have one. Sheesh.

[NewHampster]

2. Personally I like them covered or uncovered

It should be her choice.

[boobooday]

125. good answer

:-)

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Jacobin]

3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but

I understand that the Texas state constitution guarantees both men and women the right to go bare-chested. Any Texans out there?

By the way, they are baby bottles, and I have trouble understanding why anyone would think they are "obscene", particularly when compared to sado masochistic movies like this Passion thingy.

[redqueen]

22. Texan here

Never heard that before! I did hear that about NY, though. That women sued and won the right to go topless. :)

[Habibi]

50. That is the case in Rochester, NY

However, it isn't much applied. I know someone who saw a cyclist topless in downtown Rochester; the grief she got from everyone would certainly make me think twice about doing it.

[rockymountaindem]

29. Here in the province of Ontario, Canada

there is no law stating that a woman must cover her breasts. One friend I've met here in my dorm worked as a lifeguard at a public pool. If a woman takes her top off and someone complains, all he could do is notify the woman that there was a complaint. He couldn't order her to cover up. In fact, it is perfectly legal for a woman to walk down any street in Ontario completely topless.

[boobooday]

128. EXACTLY

It is our violence that is obscene.

Violent movies are full of pink flesh, heaving breaths, writhing bodies, and squirting blood.

It is pornographic. Obscene. Far more so than a boobie could ever dream of being.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Ilsa]

179. In Texas, a breastfeeding mother

cannot be arrested or harassed and is protected by law to be able to breastfeed her child in public, even if the breast and nipple becomes exposed. This is anywhere they have a right to be.

[LiberalTexan]

334. I understand it is not against the law in TX

unless you can prove that the person who is exposing themself has the intent to sexually arouse another person. I believe this is why the Janet Jackson incident was never prosecuted. They knew their argument wouldn't hold water.....

In related news, I plan to bear my breasts in public all the time starting next month after I give birth! If someone doesn't like it, they can look away! I've got a baby to feed! :)

Come get me, Fundies.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. lol

i think that cleavage is sexier than naked breasts...and i think both men and women should cover their breast in public...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

23. I guess we'll have to disagree for the first time.

;)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. yes but i say it as an aesthetical preference

i do not think this needs to be the law

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

41. I know I was joking. Aesthetically I wouldn't mind.....

[rucky]

5. "How am I going to explain breasts to my daughter?"

LOL

equal rights. is it really that complicated?

[CatWoman]

10. a mother's duty is to explain breasts to her daughter

I would think :silly:

[bhunt70]

6. No.

We live in a puritanical society as it is and any way we can relax that situation is acceptable to me.

People should get over the human body, everyone has one, and everyone has or will see one at somepoint in their lives. The problem is when people don't know how to act when they see one.

Sexual crimes are PROBABLY more prevalent in the USA than in anywhere else in the world, even in places like Europe, where in the evening, you are able to see naked women on network TV.

Sex and nudity shouldn't be taboo.

[hippiechick]

7. What is the difference between women's breasts and men's breasts ?

Biological function, size and stigma.

No, women should not be forced to cover their breasts if men aren't forced to cover theirs.


:hippie:

[mlawson]

12. I see your point, but women's change at puberty, and men's don't.

That would be the difference in my opinion, though I don't necessarily think that is enough to keep them covered.

[WillParkinson]

18. Mens change with age...

And get full and bigger than some women. (And stop looking at mine!)

[FlaGranny]

31. That's right - maybe it should be against the

law to expose large ears or noses, too. ;-) Some people could find large ears or noses stimulating!!!

[nolabels]

287. Remember it's only kinky if you use the whole chicken

Please stop tickling, it's not fair when you got me tied up like this



One of the old Cochin varieties. These are like giant "snowballs", with masses of soft, white, downy plumage. They are beautiful birds of quiet disposition and outstanding for exhibition.

http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/product/white_cochins.html

[ulysses]

8. thank god for our Puritan heritage!

Gots to protect the little ones from the titties! Ban breastfeeding! Osama hates formula! Erm, waitaminnit...

[cally]

9. I live in a very liberal area

and the local swim club kicked out a woman for breast feeding her infant in public. Her five year old was in the pool, so she sat on the edge of the pool and breast fed her infant. I think our society is insane. I'll be joining the protests on this one.

No, I don't think women should have to cover their breasts.

[MsUnderstood]

15. Breast Feeding

While I think Breast feeding is a natural thing and should not be stigmatized, there are exceptions:

Feeding you kid on the edge of a public pool: Okay I hate to get disturbing, but milk can, hmmm, spill and the breast milk can transfer diseases. If you are gonna feed in public, sit at a table.

Driving while nursing: not the best idea--lucky they didn't end up on darwin's list. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/12/04/277071-ap.html


But banning breast feeding cause others cant control their emotioins when they see naked booby is just plan silly.

[yardwork]

203. I don't want to be difficult.

But the pool water has chlorine in it to handle germs. And how could a little bit of breast milk carry more germs than spit, mucous, pee, and the other things that people leave in public pools?

[SarahB]

208. Nursing moms can, um, leak sometimes

What are they going to do, do inspections before they allow any woman of child bearing age into the pool? :shrug: Sorry, but, I'm a little lost here.

Chlorine kills e-coli for goodness sake. I'm sure it can handle this.

[ithacan]

11. here in Ithaca NY it is perfectly legal

this was an issue that came up last year, some women went shirtless and it was determined that it was not against the law. There's even a great photo of the shirtless women with the chief of police (who was female but declined to take off her shirt).

[HootieMcBoob]

21. It's legal in the entire state of New York

I guess about 8 years or so ago a group of women won a discrimination case over this. In New York State it's legal for women to go topless anywhere it's legal for men to go topless.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

24. I would trust that anyone with a name like yours,

is well informed in this particular subject.
:toast:

[HootieMcBoob]

40. LOL

And you would be right :)

[Vickers]

13. HELL NO!

Because, you know, I like bewbies and stuff.

Love,

Little Johnny Ashcroft

[LynzM]

14. I think it should be legal, but...

I can't see many women choosing to do it, except as protest, at first. Maybe eventually the stigma associated with it would go away, that'd be nice. Women in Europe go to topless/nude beaches all the time, and their society doesn't seem to be crumbling because of it. People all over the world go nude/topless and still manage to be ok. We really are the most uptight country. It's very weird. I TOTALLY agree that it's only an issue because we make it an issue. Liberate the boobs!!! LOL

[bearfartinthewoods]

217. ""We really are the most uptight country""?????

yeah right....ever hear of saudi arabia?

[LifeDuringWartime]

232. probably meant most uptight western country

n/t

[Guava Jelly]

16. There should be a law requireing Women

to let me see their breast..See, feel,and Squeeze in a swartnegerarian fashion until i get carpel tunnel :)

[slinkerwink]

37. that's fucking sexist and misogynistic

shame on you!

[Guava Jelly]

45. take a chill pill

its not sexist it nature.
birds do it bees do it even educated fleas do it

[slinkerwink]

48. I'm not going to "chill out" because what you said offended me

a serious question like the one being discussed in the original post does NOT invite sexist remarks...

[ImperialAmerikkka]

69. It IS sexist and misogynistic - what am I in for ?

maybe I shoudn't have signed on here. I didn't expect to have to read sexist crap like that here

[slinkerwink]

82. most people here don't say misogynistic and sexist crap like that here

and a few rotten apples do. Don't let them spoil your DU experience.

[RoadRunner]

177. Hi ImperialAmerikkka, Welcome to DU!

Glad'ya found us! :hi:

[slinkerwink]

178. dude, you have 666 posts.....should we all be frightened?

;-)

[Djinn]

74. serious??

I took it as a piss take on the French head scarf ban? and I didn't get outraged at GoPsUx, I though it was pretty clear he was also taking the piss.

[Exultant Democracy]

95. The original post did ask a serious question, but in a funny manner.

I would think that you would have noticed that the poster was making a reference to Gov. GrOPanator.
Take a chill pill. :-)

[ohiosmith]

17. I volunteer to judge on a case by case basis those breasts that

should or should not be covered.

[slinkerwink]

38. again, fucking sexist and misogynistic

[Djinn]

104. I really don't get the sexism and mysogyny implied there?

If I admit that I personally find SOME men (and fewer women - being a hetero female) aesthetically pleasing and others a bit on the rough side is that sexist or honest?

[slinkerwink]

105. because that poster thinks the only breasts that can be shown

are aethestically pleasing ones. What about women over 30, 40, 50?

[Djinn]

111. but YOUR the one making that assumption

he/she never said only young pert big (whatever) boobs should be on display - that was what you assumed - so is the sexism his/hers or yours in that you presume no-one COULD find a women over 30's boobs attractive.

Even if he/she HAD said only pert(or whatever) boobs allowed on display that's STILL an aesthetic decision not a sexist one.

Like I said is it sexist to have aesthetic preferences, personally I've never gone for guys unless they're bigger than me and have nice arm muscles, am I sexist or is it that's what I like?

[slinkerwink]

119. I'm sorry, but that indeed was a sexist post

[Djinn]

122. if you think so

I took it as a bloke (presumably) who likes some boobs and doesn't find others pleasing.

Not every mention from a guy about having physical preferences is sexist - like I said YOU were the only one that mentioned age

[bearfartinthewoods]

219. so a womam's rights depend on his decison.....

[SemperEadem]

274. that's YOUR issue

I don't think anywhere he said that a woman of 40 cannot have aesthetically pleasing breasts.

he was being sarcastic and you missed it, instead interpreting his quip as a personal attack against your body and who you are as a person. A huge non sequitur leap, but one made, nonetheless.

[polazarus]

275. my significant other

is over thirty and I think her boobs look good. (I would rather keep them to myself though) Hey if you want to show your boobs by all means go ahead.

Ps
Some people even pay money to see boobs. This would put that industry out of business.

[seabeyond]

159. the thing is if looking at in purity

like those advocating strippin down,..........where it isnt sexual, where it is natural, then it doesnt matter if it looks good or not. that isnt the point. and cause we cant go there and only want the woman, and only the woman naked, and only the woman that look good naked, tells us our society isnt in a place of purity to do nakedness in natural

[Rex]

19. I dunno, but please cover yours Dr Weird!

Anyone who has seen ATHF will know what I mean. ;)

[SavageWombat]

20. Pubic schools. Freudian slip.

I'm all for women showing their breasts in public. I think a certain sense of decorum should apply - women want to be able to breastfeed in public, but don't want to be stared at while doing so - but making it illegal is just stupid.

[Bandit]

26. It is all about the mighty Clenis ~ God only knows what it will do if a

Naked Breast should appear. What will we tell our daughters? The horror oh God the horror. The Clenis must be stopped at all costs. Now back to Jason meets Chuckie and the WWE.:crazy:

[Rockholm]

27. Constitutional Amendment...Ban The Breasts!!!!!

Absolute Sarcasm.

[Bonhomme Richard]

28. God NO!!!!!!!

I love breast.

[Yemp4734]

30. In most (dare I say all)

of western europe it's fine. In many parts of africa it's fine. Same for many other nations. Americans are a little sick in this regard IMO. Have a kid see someone get shot in the head on TV and that's A-Ok. See a breast and it's the crime of the century.

[bearfartinthewoods]

225. i haven't been to most parts of western europe. are you saying

women routinely go shopping or to restaurants topless? i was under the impression that there were parks and beaches where nudity was allowed but have seen no references to broad based acceptance of toplessness in other situations.

[peach720]

253. No most women do not go into shops topless.

However go to a park in Berlin in the summer and every one is
stark naked in the sun. Some of the fundies that make a fuss would
have heart attacks.

[American Renaissance]

32. worst. job. ever.

When I was a teenager I worked at this resort one summer, although it was not offically a nude resort, it seemed to attract alot of nudists and assorted perverts who followed the nudists.

As a general rule, women who will walk around topless are probably the absolute LAST people you would EVER want to see naked. These people are just disgusting. some of the boob jobs I saw looked like they just cut a little hole and pumped Mono silicon seal in there.

I'm amazed I wasn't permanently impotent by the end of the summer.

[ulysses]

34. progressive of you.

:eyes:

[kiahzero]

149. Progressives aren't allowed to find people unattractive? (n/t)

[Mountainman]

42. You said it!

My wife and I met at a nudist resort about 20 yrs ago. I was a newbie and she and her parents and brothers and sisters were members for a couple of years. We've been going back off and on over the years.

I always laugh at guys that think they will encounter beautiful naked women at a nudist club. That is the farthest thing from the truth as you can get. There will be an occasional good looking person there but look around you. The people you see at work are the same kind of people you will see at a nudist club. Mostly middle aged and older couples.

Most of us do not look too good without clothes but we don't really go there to look at beautiful bodies.

[sweetheart]

33. People should be able to be naked whenever they want

I don't like clothes unless its too cold. I have no problem with
being naked around other people. I don't seek it out, but i have no
issues with naked bodies at all, and think it would be a fine world
if there were no issues about the human body.

Clothing should be optional in our new world. Imagine Bush naked on
the deck of an aircraft carrier with his shrivelled walnut. Then
we would all laugh at the fool. Take the clothes off, i say, then
Rove will look like a fat pig, and cheney will have bizarre scars
around his chest. Then we can get a look at the total health of our
administration... and who's obviously gettin' some... like condi and
cheney's wife doing 4-somes with cheney and barney.

[ButterflyBlood]

212. you just gave me some very scary images

:puke:

[maxsolomon]

35. what about the menstrual hut!

getting rid of that GOES AGAINST OUR WHOLE TRADTITION!

i once saw a biker bumper sticker: SET THEM PUPPIES FREE!

[DennisReveni]

36. HELL NO!

The covered female breast is so sexist. Men can run around topless but women can not.
Ladies, please fight this sexist society and bare them as frequently as possible.

[slinkerwink]

39. no, they shouldn't be forced to cover their breasts

after all, my college friends at Smith go topless in the summer. After so much nudity here, I barely bat an eyelash when I see a half-naked girl go by here on campus.

[Indiana Democrat]

43. Ugh...

You may want your children to see women's breasts, but I don't...

LET THEM BE CHILDREN FOR A LITTLE WHILE...Please?

And I am not a "Fundie" or a "Christian" or anything else you want to use to slander me for my modest opinion.

What is WRONG with some people??

[seabeyond]

44. just listen to all the male post in degradation

of the female body alone, on this thread. and wonder why. wow, sad

[maxsolomon]

46. hey, AMERICA sexualized the breast, not me

"let them be children for a little while"?

to kids, they're food sources!

[bearfartinthewoods]

226. if brests are not sexual, why do nipples stand at attention during sex

like a penis does?

[slinkerwink]

239. men's nipples also stand at attention during sex and men derive pleasure

from their nipples when a woman licks or nips at them. Then it begs the question, if men experience pleasurable sensations from their nipples, and they're allowed to walk around half-naked, then why can't women?

[bearfartinthewoods]

246. hey, i'm all for men being equally restricted

or freed. i just don't buy that women's breasts are solely milk glands.

[Nihil]

248. <Whimper>

> and men derive pleasure from their nipples when a woman licks or nips at them.

Will you please *STOP* saying that?
You're doing it on purpose aren't you? Well, I hope you're satisfied ...
it's having an effect!
:loveya:

[kayell]

47. HAAHAAAAAAAA

Who in the heck other than little children do you think has the most natural exposure to breasts in their most obvious biological use than little children?

How perverse do you have to be to see something perverse in breasts? Breasts are the ultimate symbol of nurturance and care for children.

Were you a bottle baby?

[slinkerwink]

49. I've seen breasts all my life from little kid to now--I'm not scarred by

that....:-)

[kayell]

53. That's fortunate ;)

I have managed to avoid the scarring influence of breasts also, despite not only having been a breast feeding mother *gasp* but also daily (hot weather) exposure while living on a commune, and frequent exposure since. In fact I am even able to face myself after a bath, and don't need to dress in the dark to avoid the sight of a *big gasp* middle aged breast!

Most children I've seen that haven't been taught that the human body is "dirty" seem to think of breasts as rather friendly things. (kids are smart)

[slinkerwink]

56. breasts are definitely friendly...

;-) ahh, they're a beautiful part of women.

[kiahzero]

153. If I said that, would I be sexist?

It seems, according to some of the posts on the thread, that I would. Just curious.

[slinkerwink]

193. I'm a woman, and therefore that isn't sexist

[Samurai_Writer]

77. Cute breast story...

When my son was an infant until about age 5, we would sit in the rocker and read a book every night before bed. I'm not a small-chested woman, and my breasts made very comfortable pillows for him... so much so that he would always refer to my breasts as 'Mommy's pillows'! It was just SO cute!

BTW, he's 22 years old and was not traumatized in the least by being so up close and personal with Mommy's breasts. When he was a teenager he had this habit of not knocking before coming into my room or the bathroom, and saw me naked many times. It was no big deal. He's a very well-adjusted young man and treats women better than most 22 year olds, I would guess.

[kayell]

92. My five year old grandchild still looks at them that way

I have now turned into that plump, squashy grandma that children snuggle up to cause I've grown into a big pillow. LOL I sure never pictured my self in that role a few years ago.

I've known a lot of kids that have grown up in families that do not practice traditional strict US dress codes, and they all seem well adjusted in their attitude to the human body. They know the difference between nakedness and sexuality.

[Indiana Democrat]

124. That's fine for those family...

...just don't try to FORCE it apon MY family. (Which is the basic theme of this thread, in case you forgot).

[kayell]

135. No the theme of this thread is that women should not be forced to cover

their breasts as though there was something obscene about the female breast. Males can go shirtless without problems. I've worked outside for years including during very hot weather doing physically hard work. The extra layer of clothing required of females is extremely uncomfortable under those conditions.

Also, I'm certainly not going to force your family to go bare breasted or even to allow your small children to snuggle up to female caregivers. (a bit sad that) I'm just advocating equal rights in male/female clothing options, and saying that seeing the female breast as obscene does not make sense.

[slinkerwink]

137. Last summer, at Smith, I've gone shirtless and just worn a pair of

overalls over my breasts. It felt quite nice to be shirtless :hi:

[Indiana Democrat]

141. Hey...I'd like to wear a SKIRT!!

Let the breeze blow up there and keep me all nice and fresh and whatnot...

But guess what? Aint gonna happen! For about a BAZILLION good reasons.

[slinkerwink]

145. you can wear a kilt if you want to keep up your "masculinity"

[Indiana Democrat]

139. Again...

Don't try to expose MY children to YOUR breasts and we won't have any problems. Do as you will with your own kids.

Personally, I want MY kids to remain KIDS for as long as possible. This "Do as you please" crap has NOT been good for our society. Call me old-fasioned if you will, I don't care.

Oh...And truth be told, I don't want to see your breasts either. Unless you're a super-model or something...Again...Call me what you will, but there it is...

[kimchi]

154. Again,

God created women's breasts for feeding babies. That people see them as merely sexual objects is cultural, and secondary.

The mind is the largest sexual organ; and any part of the body can and has been seen as erotic. Naked bodies are not evil, sinful, or sexual. They are natural.

[peach720]

258. If you stay off European beaches, you will

never see my bare breasts, I promise.

[seabeyond]

143. this is a beautiful way to see breasts

this is not what we do with breasts in this society. our cultures dirtifies the breast, not the mother or the breast feeder or the grandma. what was the comment. not breast to belly button. i watched dragonfly with my boys the other day, a tribe of women with bare breast not a tad bet of uncomfortable or wrong or embarrrased,.........when our culture embraces our breast in that manner will be when we women can rip off our tops and be free.

and btw, a bra, there is no greater glory and freedom than taking a bra off at the end of the day.

males should reflect what their part in this is

i am not holding my breath

[kayell]

152. "no greater glory and freedom than taking a bra off at the end of the day"

LOL, isn't that the truth. I took mine off about 25 years ago, and have almost never worn one since. What an incredibly medieval torture device that thing is!

[LWolf]

241. Another story:

My boys are 22 months apart. The first week home with the 2nd baby, his older brother stood at my elbow watching intently as we breast fed. No big deal. He looked at me in a puzzled way, pointed to the breast, and said, "Water or juice?" He didn't remember breast feeding himself, 18 months previously.

They are 24 and 26 now, and it doesn't seem to have damaged their attitudes toward women or sex or bodies in general.

[seabeyond]

244. i am sure in all the comfort

and beauty and nurturing and love ah so much love you all together, simply beauty

i bet those boys are in grace and balance in the experience with woman.

really not hard all this stuff

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kayell]

66. Actually, I had no idea you were talking about teenagers

since I do not call teenagers children. I find your comments bizarre, and more indicative of your own problems than of anything else.

[Indiana Democrat]

75. I am standing up for the right of children to be CHILDREN!

And to not be exposed to sexuality at a young age.

What is "Bazarre" about that? A civilized society calls that common sense.

[Pobeka]

84. <sigh>. There is a difference between nudity and sexuality.

That's the whole point here. If breasts were not covered, it would be no big deal at all to see a breast.

It's just a cultural thing.

For crying out loud, *feet* are hot fantasies for Japanese men (or used to be).

[Indiana Democrat]

88. Be nude all you want...Just not around MY kids!!

Or we'll have BIG problems.

And Japanese men also forced their women to wrap their feet as to stunt and/or reverse their growth...And many of them did so, so they could fit the entire foot into their mouths during sex.

Maybe we could start forcing women to wrap their breasts in the same way? (In other words, poor example...Just like the ones comparing burkas).

[Pobeka]

91. You're starting to get the idea.

Keep thinking... (I'm really not trying to be snide here, but I've failed at that before)

[Indiana Democrat]

I know where you're coming-from...

...And personally, I like seeing all the exposed breasts I can (So SHOOT ME...I'm a red-blooded American male).

And I also know that when I was a kid, I felt the EXACT same way...But as an adult, I understand the basic goodness of protecting children from what they can't yet understand.

Again...Let them be KIDS!

[Pobeka]

110. The funny thing is, kids are the most immune to the culturalization ..

... of covered breasts. It's us adults (post-puberty) that get the thrill of seeing the "forbidden eye fruit".

Look, I'm not saying we should declare the U.S. a clothes-free zone right now, but it's worth being aware that it's just a cultural bias.

[slinkerwink]

94. um, you're not making any sense

do you also object to nude breasts in art? Like the statue of Justice which Ashcroft covered up because she had a nude breast?

[Indiana Democrat]

100. No. Not at all.

But we can somewhat protect children from those kind of displays (As parents) while they are still too young to appreciate the beauty in them.

It would be impossible to do the same if America was some kind of big nudest colony.

LET THEM BE KIDS!! This is NOT rocket science.

[MountainLaurel]

108. So are breastfed kids supposed to keep their eyes closed? n/t

[noiretextatique]

277. WHAT WILL BREASTS DO TO CHILDREN?

can you please tell me :scared: why you are so :scared: of breasts?

[slinkerwink]

313. I don't know, but it seems that he's had a traumatic experience with

breasts ;-)

[mtnester]

182. Err, we already do

bra = wrap

[Art_from_Ark]

187. You are confusing Japanese with Chinese

Foot wrapping had long been a Chinese custom, as noted by Pearl Buck in The Good Earth. It was banned in the early 20th century. The practice was never common in Japan, at least in the last several centuries.

As for "letting kids be kids", nearly any boy who's reached the age of, oh, say 10 or 11 years old is going to be curious about why mommy's chest is more curvaceous than daddy's. Here in Japan, kids can go into a convenience store and pick up a magazine that features naked breasts-- yet that doesn't stop them from being kids! On the contrary, while American kids get in a big hurry to grow up once they're in junior high, Japanese kids cling to their childhood until they're well into their twenties!

[noiretextatique]

272. foot-binding...not wrapping

a horrifying mutilation practice, btw.

[slinkerwink]

85. so then children can't be raised by gay parents...

gee, thanks.

[Indiana Democrat]

89. Where the hell do you get that?

Other than to insist on starting a flame war by slandering me?

[slinkerwink]

90. because you're confusing nudity with sexuality

[Indiana Democrat]

96. What the HELL does that have to do with being gay???

And I'm not confusing anything. I just want children to NOT be exposed to sexuality for as long as possible (And yes...In a civilized society, women's breasts are sexual...If you don't like that simple common sense fact, start your own society.)

[slinkerwink]

98. um, let's see---in this society, men's chests are also sexualized

and they get to walk around half-naked in the summer. Why can't women?

[Indiana Democrat]

101. No, they're not.

Now you're just making shit up.

And again...What the HELL does any of this have to do with being gay?? You still have not explained your slanderous comment.

[slinkerwink]

106. so you ignore all the underwear ads that shows gorgeous male models?

and men with well-built chests swimming, and or lounging around in a chair? That is sexualized. Women like to fantasize about men's chests.

[Indiana Democrat]

113. Ahhh...But the CATCH IS...

...Kids don't.

When I was a kid, I never understood all the cartoons where the men were whistling at women's legs...I just couldn't understand the big deal about them.

But now that I'm a full-grown "Leg-Man", I FULLY understand those cartoons.


Of course you know EXACTLY what I'm saying...Don't you?

[slinkerwink]

117. as a kid, I saw those nude statues and thought they were beautiful

I didn't sexualize breasts---I only saw them as a part of a woman's beauty. The sexualization of breasts tend to come with puberty. So your argument that children ARE GOING TO BE SCARRED (OMFG) FOR LIFE is a bit outlandish because breasts can't be sexualized by them. It's only us, the parents, that teaches them that breasts are "dirty" by saying that they have to be covered up. Then it gives children the idea that breasts are something to be ashamed of, instead of as a resource of nurturing, or warmth, or comfort. I've held babies, and young children, (wearing clothes, mind you) and they always put their heads on my breasts because they're soft and comfortale. To children, breasts are nothing more than pillows or a resource of nurturance.

[Indiana Democrat]

120. LOL!

And I'll bet you appreciated the opera as a child too?


Good God! Give it UP already!!

LOL!

[slinkerwink]

123. I did in fact appreciate the opera---my mother tells me that I

used to try to imitate the operatic singers. Guess what? I'm also deaf too. I guess that creates a lot of cognitive dissonance for you ;-)

[Indiana Democrat]

130. Well...You're some kind of genius-kid or something then...

...and you should REALLY cut us basic algebra flunking kids some slack!! I HATED art and opera and LOVED boobies!!! (Still hate opera...and never learned alegbra either).

[slinkerwink]

133. no wonder why you don't see breasts as natural

because art often shows nude women, and it's not shocking to see that in major art pieces, especially those done by Michelango, Picasso, and so forth.

[Indiana Democrat]

136. I said I hate opera, not art.

I'm a bit of an artist...Or at least was, until something went funky wrong with my hand and I can't write (Or draw) Properly anymore (We're kind of the same, in that way...Sucks not being able to do or appreciate something you care for, doesn't it? but at least in my case, I can old a pen like a 4 year old and still write, even though I can't draw anymore...In other words, my best to you concerning your hearing afliction...I ***kind of*** know where you're coming from, albeit at a MUCH less extent).

[slinkerwink]

138. I'm sorry but in your other post, you said you HATED art and opera etc...

[Indiana Democrat]

146. Where?

[slinkerwink]

147. here you go...

Indiana Democrat (687 posts) Tue Mar-23-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #123

130. Well...You're some kind of genius-kid or something then...


...and you should REALLY cut us basic algebra flunking kids some slack!! I HATED art and opera and LOVED boobies!!! (Still hate opera...and never learned alegbra either).

[Indiana Democrat]

148. Ooops...Thanks! You win one.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I didn't appreciate ANY of the finer things in life as a young kid.

But in my defense, a bit...

You'll notice I said "I still hate opera" and left-out art. Meaning I grew to appreciate art as a fairly young kid...But have never grown to appreciate opera.

[slinkerwink]

151. did your parents even try to show you to appreciate art or to make

opera fun for you?

[Indiana Democrat]

156. Please check-out the name...

INDIANA Democrat.

Seriously...No.

I could draw as a kid (A very young kid), so I grew to appreciate it. I flunked song-flute (I think some people call it something else? It's that little black, plastic flute you learn music on? A "Recorder" maybe?)

Anyway...No...I've never had any reason to appreciate opera. Hell, I don't like movies with sub-titles, so foreign operas aren't my cup of tea. On top of that, I've got poor hearing...I can't make-out the words in songs anyway...Never could. I enjoy the beat of a song, not what it's saying.


Anyway...

The kids I know or ornery little things...Just like me. They need to be protected from things they can't understand yet...And I think nudity (Not neccisarily statues) is one of those thing...Let them think about liking the lips or rosey cheeks of a cute little girl...Not her naked breasts...And CERTAINLY not her mom's!!

[slinkerwink]

165. why do they have to be protected from seeing breasts if they don't

understand them? It seems that you're saying that little kids sexualize breasts....and kids can't do that unless they're taught by their parents.

[Ysabel]

198. post # 130...

see...?

up there...

yep - you said that...

[slinkerwink]

206. oh hush....he faced a huge crisis of cognitive dissonance in this thread..

and had a couple of meltdowns...let's be gentle now ;-)

[Ysabel]

281. heh heh...

:P

[kayell]

127. Are you saying that you believe that young children see breasts as sexual

organs? Before they are taught to see them that way by adults? How would a young child come to that conclusion unless taught that?

[Indiana Democrat]

134. If I had to put an age to it...

...I would say about 5 or 6? Depends on the kid, of course. But yeah...After a certain age, kids start seeing breasts as sex objects. Be it naturally or through societal training. Either way, it's simple fact.

I can tell you this for sure...I don't know of a SINGLE person that remembers breast feeding. And I'm guessing all people are as thankful as I am that we DON'T.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuw!!!!!

[kayell]

158. "After a certain age, kids start seeing breasts as sex objects"

At 5 or 6?!? Only if they are taught to.

In any case, breasts are not primarily sexual objects. Seeing them mainly in that way is a cultural thing, and one that is irrational, and could be rationally changed. Women in many south seas cultures have gone bare breasted forever, and no one except westerners who are excessively victorian cultured sees them as only sexual.

Why are you so morbidly obsessed with breast feeding as though it was something disgusting?

[Indiana Democrat]

160. STOP IT!

JUST FUCKING STOP IT!

I don't have any problem with breast feeding, nor did I even come close to stating that I did at any point.

You can stop making shit up now.

[kayell]

164. Your own words

"I can tell you this for sure...I don't know of a SINGLE person that remembers breast feeding. And I'm guessing all people are as thankful as I am that we DON'T.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuw!!!!!"

[noiretextatique]

282. i hope he grows some big, fat, juicy BREASTS

of his own :eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

303. you said the word "FUCKING"

People's children read DU ya know... you are exposing them to peril! :o

[mtnester]

185. Have you Lost your mind

Of COURSE a good looking chest on a man is sexualized every day. As a woman, I would be fibbing if I said that has not ever been sexually attractive.

[kayell]

86. Not all people see breasts as primarily sexual appendages

Breasts and nipples are sensitive in both males and females, yet are only considered (by some) primarily sexual in women. In fact, their main purpose is the feeding of young children. The only reason to see breasts as so perversely sexual is cultural conditioning. It is quite possible to break free of non-productive or damaging cultural conditioning.

You know very well which comment of yours I found bizzare.

[Indiana Democrat]

93. You can try to state men and women are the same all you like.

But nature proves you wrong at every turn.


And I STILL don't know what you're refering to as "Bizzare". The only "bizzare" things I see around here are people who seem to want to expose innocent children to breasts.

[noiretextatique]

276. innocent children

don't have a problem with breasts. some of them even get their nourishment from them :eyes:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kayell]

99. Why would you want to say something like this AGAIN?

This is not a normal kind of insult/remark that you are making.

[Indiana Democrat]

103. Just following the line of thinking that you forced into the conversation.

You're the one who got obsurd to begin with, not me.

[slinkerwink]

107. her thinking isn't absurd

by the way, you mispelled "absurd"

[Indiana Democrat]

109. Comparing my comments to Breast Feeding is absurd.

But you know that, don't you??

And thanks for being the spelling cop.

[kayell]

114. This is what I said that you have been responding to

"Who in the heck other than little children do you think has the most natural exposure to breasts in their most obvious biological use than little children?

How perverse do you have to be to see something perverse in breasts? Breasts are the ultimate symbol of nurturance and care for children.

Were you a bottle baby? "

The "were you a bottle baby?" was more sarcastic perhaps than was absolutely called for, but there is nothing in what I said that would lead you reasonably to make the truly bizarre accusations that you did.

I see nothing absurd in saying that breasts are a symbol of nurturance and care for children. And this is not just for infants still breast feeding. Did you as a child never snuggle up to a large breasted and nurturing relative? Breasts are great pillows. Little children snuggle next to them. It isn't sexual.

[Indiana Democrat]

118. Keep playing your game.

And keep denying that you KNOW I was NOT talking about breast-feeding age children.

How perverse do you have to be to breast feed at an age where the average child starts to notice breasts as "Boobs"???

[slinkerwink]

121. most women don't breastfeed beyond the age of five

and your line of argument of children breastfeeding at age 12 is outlandish once again.

[peach720]

263. Trust me if they are 12, they would be more then

happy to see any breasts. If they are boys, they will be looking
for the porn mags under the beds and at the bottom of the wardrobe.
And if they are girls aged twelve they will be after any Jackie Collins book they can find.
Of course a man's chest can be sexual, put up a poster of a bare
chested Brad Pitt in an office. You can do that in many offices and lot people up with sexual fantasies, while the work. However the post of his
wife, will have Jennifer Aniston covered up, with maybe some cleavage.
Both pics are there for the same purpose but only the man can be nude.

[slinkerwink]

266. I'm talking about the impossibility of mothers breastfeeding twelve year

old kids, not pubescent boys who are learning how to be sexually attracted to women at 12.

[kayell]

142. There is nothing in any of my posts about breast feeding up to any age

whatsoever. I don't know why or how you are reading in something about breast feeding to advanced ages, but it isn't in my posts anymore than references to teenagers has been. You are getting these ideas from somewhere, but it isn't from me.

[seabeyond]

129. as a mom will say again

my babies took showers with me, breast to breast, skin to skin, warm water and touching. my 6 year old still comes in when i am taking a shower to ask a question. i will be reading a story and all of a sudden a hand will be pushing at my breast just to play, see what it is about. these are natural kid things.

my children ran around naked, and my 6 year old probably still wants to, in our back yard for years, til modesty took over for the oldest. not taught to him, what he came to with self, and i respect that. immediately saw when oldest became uncomfortable with his nakedness and others, including his father. his development.

a parent respectfully allows the child to walk this themselves

a parent does not let society dictate what and when they learn from the adult world

or the perverse world

or the sexual world

it is my job as a parent to let my child grow in his terms

this includes with developing his morality, his religion or not, his political voice, his total being is his to do without undue influence from people that are not looking for the health and balance of my child

and anyone that doesnt get this isnt a parent and even with that if you dont get it is cause you have no desire to, it isnt a hard one.

[kayell]

155. This is beautiful, you sound like a wonderful parent

If there were more like you who could allow children to find their own natural selves, this world would be a much better place.

[Cronus Protagonist]

283. I think babies bottles should be covered as well

I, for one, do not want to see little babies suckling on what amounts to a dildo substitute breast. They should eat their food like the rest of us, or at the very least do what they do in private.

/sarcasm


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Karenina]

288. BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Cronus, ya need to WARN a person!!! :spank: You're lucky this time. My keyboard lives!!!

FUNNIEST. THREAD. EVER!!!

The globe is descending into chaos and folks are all exercised over MAMMARY GLANDS... :eyes: Meine ficken Fresse! THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!

[Cronus Protagonist]

332. I'm glad you read the /sarcasm "tag"

I bet more than a few people thought I was serious.

:)


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[slinkerwink]

51. let's guess----you're against public breastfeeding too?

[Indiana Democrat]

57. In the open, and on display, yes.

But when the breast is covered, of course not.

I've seen a number of women breast feed in public...And every single one of them had the modesty to cover themselves while doing so.

And I've never known anyone to object to that.

[slinkerwink]

58. I've seen my mother half-naked and it doesn't bother me

I've also seen other women half-naked, and it doesn't bother me either.

[Indiana Democrat]

61. Fine.

Just do me a favor and ask them to NOT be naked in front of my children.

Again...Is that TOO MUCH to ask in a civilized society??

[noiretextatique]

291. a breast-feeding mother is not NAKED

she is feeding her child :eyes: perhaps...you are oversexualizing women.

[DrWeird]

52. Satire or honest opinion?

Good satire is impossible to tell, so if that's your intention then good on you.

Because you denigrated the entire muslim religion in that other thread for forcing women to wear hijabs, so it would be quite ridiculous if you were in favor of forcing women to wear what you want them to.

[Indiana Democrat]

64. Yeah...Force them to wear hijabs...

...shooting them in the back of the head for looking at a non-related male...Same thing.

You can hate, dismiss and denegrate muslim women all you want...Just don't expect me to feel and act the same.

[Yemp4734]

62. Obviously

you have never heard of breast feeding.

I ask you to submit to me ANY evidence a child seeing a breast is harmful. (and I mean with out the mental damage inflicted by a parent telling them how awful it is) If so, the countless millions who have been breast fed are SO victimized. LET THEM BE CHILDREN! GET THE GERBER BOTTLE NOW!

[Indiana Democrat]

68. Evidence?

How about simple standards and common sense that have evolved from years of a successful civilized society?

Pervert your children any way you like...All I ask is that you take care of them once you've warped their minds instead of handing them over to the state, and also leave mine alone until they're old enough to understand the real world. (Sexuality can wait until at least they're out of grade school, can't it??)


Oh...And you KNEW I wasn't talking about breast feeding, didn't you?

[DrWeird]

70. How ironic.

Sounds like a fundamentalist muslim discussing burqas.

[Indiana Democrat]

76. Yes...Covering breasts...And covering the entire face & body...Same thing!

You don't care about standing-up for children, and letting them be CHILDREN...Fine. Just stay away from mine (Or anyone elses, for that matter)...Based on your comments, you're not to be trusted.

[DrWeird]

102. Hey, at least I'm not anti-freedom.

And I don't have any bizarre ultra conservative sexual hangups.

[Indiana Democrat]

115. No...You're just anti-Muslim woman...

...with a bunch of ultra conservative views on how Muslim women should be treated...Errr...MIStreated.

(Two can play this inane game).

[DrWeird]

131. Hey, I'm all for equal rights.

I have the crazy idea that all women should be able to wear what ever they want to.

So let's tally the score card, shall we?

Me: let women wear what they want to wear.
Muslim does not equal anti freedom
Americans are not better then afghanis.

You: Women should be forced to cover obscene parts of their bodies. (in order to protect children and civilization, that's just common sense.)
Nude art work should be covered up if children are present.
Muslim = antifreedom
American civilians are more important than afghani civilians. (because our country is better.)

Anything else you'd like to add?

[slinkerwink]

195. nothing so far from him....

:shrug:

[Mountainman]

78. They will surprise you with their knowledge before then

You can't control all the information your kids will come in contact with. They will ask their friends questions about sex or will get information even if they don't ask. If you teach them the truth before that then they will be prepared with real information.

Of course if you lie to them they will know that too.

[Indiana Democrat]

80. Good points on the information comments.

But personally, I want kids to run and play and BE KIDS!! And then once in a while, take a sneak-peak at a catalog in order to see a woman in a bra, for kicks.

Leave the open and in your face "Sexuality" until they're at least teen-agers.

Again...It's simple common sense to me.

[Djinn]

79. what about YOUR kids

exposing their sinful ankles to the children of people who find ANY skin sexualised??

[Indiana Democrat]

83. Our society has deemed the ankle to be fine.

And that's fine by me since our society is the single greatest in the history of man.

Why mess with the best?


(And in case you're wondering...I object to your attmept at comparing the women hating Taliban/Muslims to simple modest Americans.)

[Djinn]

132. LOL

"our society is the single greatest in the history of man"

who's society are you referring to there? My society doesn't view Americans as "modest" we'd view you as puritanical with an overwhelming weird view of sex and sexuality as something evil as amply evidenced by your quote "take a sneak-peak at a catalog in order to see a woman in a bra, for kicks" bizarro

And as for me implying anything - I was ACTUALLY referring to prior CHRISTIAN mores and morals nothing to do with the Taliban.

And I seriously resent YOU asserting that ALL Muslims treat women in the same way - ever heard of Megawati Sukarnoputri? if not SHE is the current President of the most populous Muslim nation on earth.

Must be nice to be able to write of HUGE swathes of humanity while knowing bugger all about that which you speak.

Do you know btw that there are Christian and Jewish sects that have pretty much the same rules as the Taliban did???

[Heyo]

144. I agree with you there.....

The purpose of clothers is to cover sexual organs and so called "privatee areas"... for Women breats are a part of sexuality, "private areas" if you will...I have never heard a single woman say they are not, except for the more militant feminist types.

I am all for exposed breasts and all....

but I'm not sure if I agree with having women shopping at the mall with no shirt on...

(oh what the hell am I saying?.. of course I do!!!) :evilgrin:

I guess I wouldn't want to see a guy shopping at the mall with no pants on, that's for sure...

This topic is tough not to joke about...

I'm just gonne give it a rest...I guess I'm okay with it either way.. :shrug:

Heyo

[noiretextatique]

292. breast-feeding = "sexuality"

only in a truly twisted mind :puke:

[LWolf]

238. I think it's the connotation.

The body is a system, or group of systems, with parts that serve functions. Breasts serve a function. Just like hands, feet, eyes, etc. What is unchildlike about seeing peoples hands, feet, noses, or breasts? The only thing not "innocent" about it is the assumptions of the culture raising the child.

Interestingly enough, farm kids and other kids raised around breeding animals take reproduction matter-of-factly; it's nothing to giggle over, just part of life. At least, that's the way it was for me and the kids I grew up with. It's the adults' attitudes about the body that are the problem, not what the child might see.

[LWolf]

245. Do you agree, then,

with John Ashcroft's throwing a blue cover over the "Spirit of Justice" statue so that her breast won't appear behind him on tv?

Do you think that we ought to throw draperies over all of the breasts shown on statues in the capital and around the country?

[peach720]

255. My parents have always been nude sleepers.

I never had to question the differences between men and women.
I saw them naked every day, I didn't feel less of a child though.
Just going on holiday on Europe and naked breasts are no big deal,
it looks better than white bits too.

[kayell]

54. "In one western european nation, the covering of breasts was outlawed

in pubic schools." Do you have a link for this? and what pray tell is a pubic school? Are you sure you're allowed to talk about pubic schools at DU?

[Mountainman]

73. I don't know about Europe but I remember reading about the South Pacific

I can't remember who the book was about but she taught school on an island in the South Pacific. It was the custom there for women to wear skirts that covered their ankles but they were otherwise topless. At the high school graduation, because of some Western visitors the girls were given bras to wear. I remember seeing the picture of the graduating class with the girls wearing bras and no shirts.

[Donkeyboy75]

55. Let 'em wear what they want to wear

It's going to take a long time for our fundie culture to realize that the female body and male penis isn't evil...but eliminating the tittie stigma is a great baby step.

In interest of full disclosure, I find most other parts of the female body sexier than the breast (neck, a side view of the knee, rear end, etc). A breast just isn't sexy.

[0007]

60. Should women be forced to cover their breasts?

Only women that are like that school teacher on South Park

Seriously, that should be left up to the women, 'tis her body.

[seabeyond]

63. the real funny

males sitting here telling us female about our breasts. they have been coming along for the ride with us for a lot of years. we arent the ones with the issue of breasts. nothing new to us. sittin here telling us about our breast. if that isnt the funniest, and just so typical

they arent the big deal to us. it is the male that start wars over the damn breast, or relgions battling and fighting over the damn breast. get beyond it guys, after centuries it is time

[bearfartinthewoods]

227. you make a common mistake

making universal proclaimations in the name of all women. if breasts aren't a big deal to women, what's with the growing desire to be cut open and have sacks of saline implanted under the skin?

[seabeyond]

251. conditioning my friend conditioning

from where we speak, yup

from all of society. so as we talk nakedness, really the flip flop of it, it is not the nakedness it is the many conditions that i have heard on this board all over the place.

yes, isnt it sad, i say in a gentle and humorous smile. saw ten ways to get rid of a bf? that movie with goldie hawns daughter. cute movie. watched a lot of times. and after the umpteenth time i said to husband, ah the little tit. that is what it is. look at all the little boobies. i miss them so. they have been eliminated in this culture. i so love the little boobie and they are no more

yup, wink

but then there is our obsession with body size, and our obsession with youth, and horror at aging. individually we have the choice of playing the game,. yet i say, nakedness, is the person that allows the sags and bags in grace, and loves the plumpness and the boobs hanging to belly button and sagging chest of males and and and the totally fit and tone body the body of perfection art and grace and strength.

there is a lot of life going on, being missed allowing all this garbage to run our lives

because it is there, doesnt make it healthy, doesnt make it right, doesnt make it a must........

i guess what i say, goodness i have done all that thru puberty and teenage years and young single adult years. i have done it. i dont need to participate with youth in it now. been there done it am beyond. our society, is demanding i participate with them. i say no thankyou, do your thing, but i am not playing it. i am doing other things in life

[bearfartinthewoods]

254. agreed... there is some commercial out there

i can't remember what it's for but it shows a couple in their late sixties/early seventies, i'd gusss, sitting by a pool. him with his white shoulder hair and bald pate. her with her shriveled arms and low hung boobies...holding hands watching a sunset. i have no clue what it being advertised becasue i am always struck by the pure beauty of the scene. but such images are almost nonexistant in this culture's media and we are sooo poorer for it.

[seabeyond]

257. and then hitting 40's

ah and what a life i have and a man that loves me so, and i love so. and i see the old me doing just that and say yes. i want to get to be, without the botox and all...........why dont i get to do that

i was also in calif, in the 70's going into teen, just starting the bulimia and anexoria before anyone knew about it. i had two friends die. i played that game for a decade. dont need ot do with age.

what a waste of time

yup, thanks for sharing

[slinkerwink]

264. I'm looking forward to growing old with a certain someone

and the thought of my arms around her at age 60, watching the sun set is a pretty gooddamned thought to have! ;-)

[Blue Gardener]

65. I think some of the men should cover up

You know which ones I mean. Mowing the lawn or just sitting on the front lawn drinking a beer...sweaty, tattoed, hairy ape with a big ole' beer gut hangin' out all over. Ugh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

229. again with the "only the pretty have rights" shit

oh brother....

[stewert]

67. No.............

If a man can go around with no shirt on women should be able to do it too. It's discrimination
I tell ya, lol.

The women of America are being discriminated against, years ago they burned their bra's, I
think they should now burn the whole damn shirt.

Ladies you are being discriminated against, fight the power, lose the shirts, lol.

[CityZen-X]

71. "Should Women be Forced to Cover Their Breasts?"

Only if they hang below their belly button.

[bearfartinthewoods]

230. oh goodie...more of the"only the pretty have rights" crap

what is with this??

[slinkerwink]

236. because men continue to objectify women even in the face of

women's liberation.

[bearfartinthewoods]

243. agreed but i don't give all woman a pass either

many women objectify themselves and it's not totally fair to lay it all on the men.

[seabeyond]

252. lay it all on the men.

absolutely not dude/dudette. you are so right on

lets just look at the age of five. have you walked into girls section of toys r us. yup. i have two boys. age 42 first time i walked in girls section of toys are us. pretty much knocked me on my ass. all the pink and princess and this is how a girl/woman is suppose to look. you want to know the conditioning of woman

all you with interest of the beginning of time conditioning on girls from tv to music to parents to school to peers to commercial...........it is all about the way you look

not a real duh..........this is an issue for women. you are right on

and when boys and i looked at that, and looked at each other, a big eeeeewwwww, that isnt fair.

[bhunt70]

81. I just watched the movie "Carrie"

my thoughts on this subject are up above, but it just made me think of the horrible mother in that movie calling breasts "Dirty Pillows" and telling poor Carrie that "They're all gonna laugh at you".

just sharing.

[Selwynn]

87. It's all about different social contexts

In this society, where breats are associated for many if not mosts with intimate sexuality, I don't think its a good idea.

But its not because of some inherrant absolute - its a cultural thing. Why are there any rules against public "indecency?" Why shouldn't men walk around with their dicks hanging out? Why shouldn't we all be nudists? The answer is multi-faceted, but part of it has to do with when does your right infringe on my "rights" and comfort? I'd be uncomfortable in a society where it was perfectly acceptable for men to walk around with their penises hanging out, or woman walking around with no pants on, or even no shirts on. Now I'm quite certian the reason I would be uncomfortable is in large part due to my social context. But I don't think its wrong to have the laws of society reflect somewhat the cultural understanding of society.

I am old fashioned however. I'm 27 years old, but I belive that certain behavior should remain personal and private, not public. And I make no apology for that.

Sel

[Cleita]

97. Waddaya mean?

Women can't show their breasts right now even to feed their babies, which is what breasts are for. Believe me traveling in third world countries I have seen a lot of exposed breast feeding and no one worried about it or took much notice.

[camero]

112. Part of me says Yes and part of me says no

And not the parts you think. :)

One thing I think is when you've seen one breast, you've pretty much seen them all. No biggie for me.

But another part says that since the breast is sexualized in our culture, it could mean trouble for quite a few women from sexual predators. We're not exactly the most civilized nation on the planet even though we say we are.

[slinkerwink]

126. with that line of argument, then women are liable to be raped because

they wear skirts or shirts that show cleavage :eyes:

[Astarho]

116. I love the irony

of several posters who in other threads propose stripping (no pun intended) away cultural tradtions of others but when someone proposes stripping (OK, pun intended there) away our cultural traditions, well...

[DrWeird]

140. Hook, line and sinker.

I never expected to pan out so well.

Painted into a corner and no where to go. Sure is fun to watch them try to get out.

[slinkerwink]

150. it's quite humorous, actually

;-) pass me the binoculars? I'd like to get another look at them.

[historian]

157. The subject is silly

In most countries ive been to (and they are a lot) women expose their breasts if they want to feed their babies. No one says anything, no one stares and no one frankly cares. It is mainly here in our childish society obsessed with sex that we make a big fuss over this.
In fact in the late 50's women were sun bathing topless in Saint Tropez france, while we were still pretending breasts didnt exist.

[HootieMcBoob]

161. As I said earlier it's legal in New York State

But I have to admit that I almost never see women without tops on in public here. The only exception to that was once at a neighborhood dog show in Brooklyn (go figure), sometimes during the summer in the park and at the beach. That's it for my public breast exposure.

[bearfartinthewoods]

228. in some towns it's illegal for men to go topless.

specificly in florida and mass or at least it was the last time i was there.

[slinkerwink]

240. in florida? I see topless men at the florida beaches!

[bearfartinthewoods]

247. i said towns, not beaches n/t

[slinkerwink]

262. I'm not saying that women should walk into town naked, but

that women should have the freedom to go half-naked in parks, beaches, in their backyards, and in their home during hot weather.

[kayell]

163. Ah, the amazing 1950s

Age of the even more amazing MonoTit_TM

[Ksec]

162. what a stupid question

How about should men walk around with their dicks hangin out?

[kayell]

167. What a silly answer

A penis is an obvious primary sexual organ, just as a vulva is. Breasts are not primary sexual organs and are not comparable to penises.

I think the issue of total nudity is a seperate and interesting discussion, but we are talking breasts in this case.

[Ksec]

169. Tell any man that breasts arent sexual and he'll laugh at you.

[slinkerwink]

170. that's because they're conditioned to sexualize them by society

whereas children don't see breasts as sexual.

[Ksec]

172. But they are and always was a turn on for men.

Even in Africa were women walk around with tits out men find breasts stimulating and thats a fact.

[slinkerwink]

174. no, they sexualize breasts after puberty, and it's reinforced by society

[Kyosanshugi]

222. Hmm.

"The taboo against nakedness is an obstacle to a decent attitude on the subject of sex. Where young children are concerned, this is now recognized by many people It is good for children to see each other and their parents naked whenever it so happens naturally. There will be a short period, probably at about three years old, when the child is interested in the differences between his father and his mother, and compares them with the differences between himself and his sister, but this period is soon over, and after this he takes no ore interest in nudity than in clothes. So long as parents are unwilling to be seen naked by their children, the children will necessarily have a sense that there is a mystery, and having that sense they will become prurient and indecent. There is only one way to avoid indecency, and that is to avoid mystery."
-from Marriage and Morals by Bertrand Russell. Based on a few choice out-of-context quotes from this work and others he was prevented from teaching at New York City College by - guess who? - Republicans.

Anyway, as far as the question of 'are breasts sexual organs or not', I'd have to say sort of. It's true that they have been highly sexualized by our society, but that's logical. They play a role in the reproductive process, by providing food for a child before it can feed itself. The idea of 'bigger is better', which goes back for a long time, is also quite logical in the primal mind. That big, fat deer you just hunted will provide more food than that small, withered one, right? So it would follow that a bigger breast would provide more food for a child. In the rational mind, we know that this is not true, but the idea stays. Now, as for the question of keeping them covered, I believe that that goes back to a time not long ago, when women were treated as property. 'This is my woman, this is my reproductive source, no other man can have her. If any other man sees her, he might want to take her for his own, so I'll keep her locked up in the house, and when she must go out, cover her from head to toe.' There have been many steps forward for women's equality in the past century, but parts of this meme still stay with us. In a truly progressive society, we would allow women to go topless when they wanted. And let's be honest, if this was the case, we would rarely see women walking down the street topless. Why would they? How often do you see men going shopping, to the bank, post office, etc. without a shirt on? Anyway, that's just my two cents. Hi!

[slinkerwink]

223. welcome to DU!!!!

:hi: excellent first post, by the way.

[seabeyond]

256. i think where we dont say out loud

what our society, and yes male in a lot of it has done with the female body is to use it to control in a degrading fashion. and as long as that is part of it, the female will feel and know. not hard to see and hear. and when i do, i will react. and why shouldnt i. i mean this is a big part of battle of sex, adn we dont honestly admit own this.

i am not going to say, you are right it is male right to degrade body in a fashion to keep me in control. i have had males approach who are intimidated or pissed anyway that i am not intimidated by them. and they will consistantly go into talk of degrading a female. specifically to humble and degrade me. then i look them in eyes and so no, you dont get to. then...........

i am prude or uncomfortable in my nakedness or whatever, again another way for a male to dismiss and control. now, we are too evolved, we know better. so silliness to think i will allow or not see. and maybe this comes in getting older and having lived this three decades and now watching my boys go thru the same growth pattern you talk at beginning of post

i want all to rejoice in their sexuality, that would be the best and most fun and healthiest for all. big thumbs up

[noiretextatique]

293. you are right...the problem is men

no woman in here right mind would go topless (outside of a few places and events) anywhere in public in america because of the harrassment she would get from men.

[bearfartinthewoods]

231. you better check with science

breast are sexualized by physiology, not just by culture.

[DrWeird]

173. My mom's oncologist wouldn't.

But then again he's intelligent.

[kayell]

176. Look at what I said again

"Breasts are not primary sexual organs and are not comparable to penises."

A comparable organ would be a vulva. Penises and breasts are not equivelants.

Heterosexual women often find men's chest musculature arousing also, but we as a society don't insist that men keep there chests covered at all times. This is unfair and sexually discriminatory, especially when you consider the considerable discomfort in summer of the extra layer(s).

For adults breasts certainly can be sexual in context. But they are not inherently sexual, any more than is the nape of the neck, or a graceful foot arch, even though some find those arousing.

[corporatewhore]

215. what about a mans pecs we some times sexualize them

[lazarus]

168. Why not?

:shrug:

[oldcoot]

207. But men can walk around without shirts

Why shouldn't women be able to do the same? Remember a man's chest can be just as sexy to a woman as a woman's chest can be to a man.

[greekspeak]

166. They are just mammary glands

We all need to get over it. How does it go? Fondling a breat lovingly gets an "R" rating, while cutting a breast gets a "PG?" Some Americans' values are skewed disgustingly.

[troublemaker]

216. "just"?

I'm all for a clothing optional world, but let's not pretend female breasts are not sexual organs (and far more so than men's)

If they were just mammary glands they would be like other mammals' breasts -- small and out of the way when not lactating.

Whenever you see something inconvenient and seemingly useless on an animal -- giant antlers, peacock tails, etc.--99% of the time is a sex-selected trait; something useless and decorative that survives precisely because it's sexually attractive. The always-protuberant human adult female breast is a sexual attractor.

[LifeDuringWartime]

265. interesting point

eom

[swinney]

171. Yes

I cover my penis.

[corporatewhore]

214. umm breasts are not reproductive organs do you advocate men cover their

breasts too?

[SarahB]

175. Breasts are both sexual and functional

I'm very comfortable with my breasts and at one time or another have discreetly breastfed all my children in public. I've spent many years of my life breastfeeding, having nursed my daughter for a year and my boys for over two years. I have worked in assisting other breastfeeding moms and hope to continue to do so as a nurse.

However, to say that breasts aren't sexual or aren't involved in sexual stimulation isn't exactly the truth either. There is the aspect, which could largely be argued as cultural, of how many American (or other men from western cultures) see the female breast. It does invoke a sexual response. However, not to be graphic, but when a women's nipples are stimulated, small amounts of the hormone oxytocin are released in small amounts. This is the same hormone released also during a woman's orgasm. So therefore, for many women, it's also a sexual thing. For me, during early months of breastfeeding, I didn't want them at all involved for recreational purposes, but otherwise, it can fit into the whole repertoire.

Anyway, this is a hard question to answer. I think overall, I don't want laws restricting my clothing and potentially, my ability to nurse wherever I need to.

[slinkerwink]

180. men also get aroused when women lick their nipples or nip at them

[SarahB]

183. Yes

Some men do. In fact, probably when you look at it in this way, we have even more reason to be able to expose our breasts in public. I mean, if both sexes can have sexual stimulation from the tissue in this part of their bodies, since men have no functional purpose for their breasts/nipples, perhaps the mens should be kept covered. I didn't think of this aspect in my earlier post, but it could be argued this way.

[slinkerwink]

188. did you know also that some men can lactate?

[SarahB]

192. I read an article a couple years back

There was a father, I believe in New Guinea or Indonesia, who had an 18 month old daughter when his wife died. The father was able to take over and was soon producing milk. I'm sure he wasn't the first. Probably more men, perhaps even most, would be able physicologically to do this, but it would be quite a rare and amazing man to put forth this type of effort. Other societies such as the Australian Aborigines, women breastfeed throughout their adult lifespan, even past menopause, and there is more instances of breastfeeding children other than your own. And of course, many women who adopt, who may have never even been pregnant in the course of their lives, have been able to induce lactation. It's amazing stuff. I don't take out my lactivist hat much here (most people don't "get it"), but to me, it's been a crucial aspect of parenting of what I believe helped, in part, contribute to the emotional, physical, and cognitive good health of my children. :)

[fortyfeetunder]

196. Amen

I nursed my child for economics and the mutual health bennies. Did an extended tour of duty (46 months), the payoff is the kid is rarely sick. Has seasonal allergies but rarely if ever sick. He's been in day care and public school and I haven't had to take sick leave but maybe once or twice a year.

[slinkerwink]

197. is there any scientific proof to this? I'm thinking about breastfeeding

if I ever have kids.

[SarahB]

199. Here's a link that states reasons to breastfeed and cites sources to back

http://www.promom.org/101/ :)

Here's a couple more that briefly discuss the feminist/female empowering aspects of breastfeeding:

http://www.infactcanada.ca/BFEmpowerWomen.htm
http://www.promom.org/bf_info/wababf.html

[slinkerwink]

204. thanks for the links!

:hi:

[ms_splash]

297. breastfeeding is wonderful!

in fact, I'm breastfeeding my daughter right now!

[TankLV]

306. My 1-year old nephew tried to do that just once.

I learned to wear a t-shirt after that!

[slinkerwink]

309. I think that was kind of cute, heh

[arewethereyet]

yes

[arewethereyet]

181. yes

[Nlighten1]

184. Absolutely not.

[Ksec]

186. Go for it.

Just do me the favor of letting me know when and where you take your stance. (hoping youre a woman) Id be interested in "seeing" that.

[Nlighten1]

190. I'm a guy...

sorry...but I support women who wish to go topless.

[Ksec]

209. so do I

No problem here so take it off baby. No not you. Youre a guy. :)

[dawn]

189. Yes and no..

I think topless subathing should be allowed, but I don't know about walking around on city streets with 'em hangin' out.

[YIMA]

191. No

Let it all hang out!

:toast: :bounce: :P

[slinkerwink]

194. kick for an illuminating thread

[SarahB]

200. Cartoon for the misogynists

It seems to say it better than anything.

[Nihil]

220. Good catch on the cartoon!

FWIW, my vote is for let the "owner" decide.
There are times when I feel like taking my shirt off and other times
when I don't. As a man, I have an almost free choice over the matter
(except for certain buildings that insist on clothing, fair enough)
so I see no reason why a woman should not have the same options as I do.

No enforced topless men or women. No enforced covering-up either.

Nihil

[Mushroom]

201. yes, weird and shocked down to size

Posts like this, strategically placed with genuine posts about horrendous shit affecting everyone, are no different than say, my being at a gathering talking about said horrendous shit, and someone reaches over to me and grabs my breast. Now, you could a) move your piece of work over to the lounge, b) have it locked, but definitely c) apologize for your faux pas and never degrade a women or someone's religion in order to sidetrack the serious posts.

Thank you.

[slinkerwink]

205. um, this has every right to belong in this forum

[Mushroom]

325. um

Protesting exploitation is also a right.

[dpbrown]

202. Fashions show every bit of the breast but the nipple

So isn't it really about the nipple? The areola? Shape, size, heft...seeing them from the top, from the bottom, from the side...all okay. That disk in the middle, though...noh-oh....

And now thanks to Janet Jackson, we know that metal jewelry doesnt' count for covering that part up, either....or maybe that was because the uptight right couldn't handle something that poked right through that meaty bit.

[ButterflyBlood]

210. I don't know

I'd like to say yes since topless women to me is usually a good thing, but I suspect the really attractive ones are not the ones likely to do so. I think attractive females should be able to walk totally naked anywhere if they wanted to, but I doubt many would if it was legal.

I do think breastfeeding should be allowed though.

[slinkerwink]

213. I'm sorry, but unattractive females also have the right to be half-naked

[noiretextatique]

278. nah...let's just make it illegal for unattrative men

to take their shirts off :eyes:

[adjwilli]

211. In Europe...

I think the tradition of it being illegal goes back to our puritanical roots. Since most of the country is pretty much beyond that just the initial shock of it being legalized was cause a rawkus. Give it a decade or two and no one would really care anymore. We'd be like Europe.

[bearfartinthewoods]

233. again asking....

do european women routinely shop or dine or go about life topless or is this toplessness occurring in parks and beaches designated for same?

[noiretextatique]

295. what difference does it make?

half-naked men don't confine themselves to parks and beaches...

[ConcernedCanuk]

218. In Ontario, Canada . it is legal for a woman to go topless . .

[Karenina]

221. FUNNIEST. THREAD. EVER!!!!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[slinkerwink]

224. why?

[yelladawg]

234. In Oklahoma

In Oklahoma, the repugs are trying to get a bill passed to send a breast feeding mother to jail, if she does it in public.

[slinkerwink]

237. that's horrible!

[seabeyond]

260. there are times i tell boys, forget them

like pee pants at three years old, or pull britches down in discriminate area and pee.

give me a break.

hm, hungry baby or some stupid ass law...........i would be challenging

btw, with all their family values and christianity i am sure jesus has issue feeding a baby held in a mamas arms

[ArkDem]

235. It depends on the woman.

.

[Kitsune]

242. No.

[boilerbabe]

249. HOLY O BATMAN there's a lot of replies to this one, so ...

Am too tired to read them after a 96-hour work week, so I will just add my foolish comments to it, and maybe someone will read them, and maybe not...

I think that this country is too far gone on the Puritanism side, and that any woman that wants to go shirtless should be able to. Right about now, being in the Northeast, I would neither go shirtless, nor pantiless at this time. And I also try to make sure of having some extra insulation by not shaving anything that could be construed as heat preserving mechanisms!
THe folderadol regarding Janet Jackson was just too much, let's separate Church and State, lets' sell booze on Sundays and let's expose breasts any time the climate is warm enough to warrant it.

I would certainly personally not be adverse to showing my slightly downsided boobises to the general public (after carefully plucking out the stray hairs haha) It's the lower abdomen that I would definately be covering up here, I AIN'T no spring chicken haha...and you know that with the perfection being shown in the advertisements today, that one would have a hard and humiliating time measuring up to any of that!!

And by the way...I work a "Non Traditional Job" so to speak..where I am the only woman in my field, and all those misguided boys would not be adverse if I showed them my "puppies" (tried to tell them they look better encased..haha)
XXXOOO

[peach720]

250. Don't let these people come to the beaches

of France, Spain, Italy or any other were topless sunbathing is
second nature, no matter what age you are.
Keep them out of art galleries too. All those 17C nudes might corrupt
and send fear in to the hearts of some many.
As for "How do explain breasts to my daughter?"
Hello,your daughters will have breasts,so you had better figure out
what to say to her. Unless she is two, she will be well aware of them.

I wonder if all this fuss of Janet Jackson's bared breast was because
so of those repressed fundie women, were turned. That would be highly
distressing for them!!!

[9215]

259. 260+ posts on this topic????????

I guess the cons really know what Americans are really interested in.

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

261. yep, it's all about breasts

god forbid we should see them or that girls should know that breasts exist!

[Karenina]

301. BINGO!!!

:eyes: Forget your death and destruction! We got titties here!

[Rob in B_more]

267. Hey Indiana Dem

I am parent also and "letting children be children" is one of my wife and I's guiding principles also. My children are much younger then your's, my daughter is 6 and my son wil be 3 in June. I find that most pop culture (movies, music, toys) are much too sexualized, and force a xhild into a premature emotional adulthood. I would prefer that my children see a real nude person, going about their daily life then have them deal with hidden subtext of something like this, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000087L2M/qid=1080060437/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-0963769-3488166?v=glance&s=toys (for those who do not feel like following the link it is to make of doll called Bratz that some people feel are apropriate for girls my daughters age.)
I'm no prude or fundie, and I am not out to outlaw Barbie, Britney and the WB's and UPN's sitcoms, but they are the the things that I worry about with my children.

[slinkerwink]

268. I do think that there's too much sexualization in pop culture

but I think there's a difference to appreciating nudity as just a part of the human body, especially where breasts are concerned. Children don't sexualize breasts---the only way they can sexualize breasts before they reach puberty is if they're taught to sexualize or to treat them as "dirty" by adults.

[bhunt70]

294. I don't think there is too much, just an unhealthy amount of

guilt and lack of education about sexuality. Whether it's on tv, in a radio show, or in the "act" I think that the problem most of tie time is of the perception, not the act. You are spot on about the dirty comment, I can't think of one legal thing in American society that is looked down upon more than good healthy clean sex...except voting republican and that shouldnt be legal.

It's funny that people get all worked up about janet jacksons nipple, but I can see 4 "get your dick hard" commercials on my lunch at work.

edit- I do agree with you about being appreciative of the human body though, no matter the shape.

[happyslug]

269. Some bad history here

First Woman's legs and arms were covered NOT from Religious conviction but from habit born of need. Beginning with the start of time Women have done more cooking for their families then men. With the onset of iron, iron cook pots became the "normal" cooking utensils. Iron is heavy and retains heat for a long period of time. Woman's center of Gravity is at or below her belly-button (This has to do with muscle weighing more per volume than fat, and the most powerful muscles in a human is the muscle used to give birth).

With her center of Gravity so low compared to her arms, it is common for woman to carry things closer to her body than a man. Thus it was common for woman to have their iron pots hit them in the leg. This either caused scaring OR encouraged women to wear long dresses so that the hot iron pot did not scare them.

It should be noted that even Roman and Greek Woman wore long dresses and this stayed the norm till the 1920s. In the 1860s the Bessemer method of making steel was invented, this permitted much cheaper steel instead of Iron. Steel being lighter and stronger than Iron replaced iron in large pots and you had less scaring of woman's legs. This was re-enforced by the introduction of what we would call "Ovens" (Some Natural gas, some wood and coal burners) in the 1880s. These ovens tended to be insulated and thus less scaring of woman's legs would occur.

It was this extensive scaring of woman's legs and arms that prevented most woman from wearing short dresses till the 1920s. The above inventions severely reduced the number of women with scars on their legs, thus by the 1920s you had women whose themselves (and probably their mothers) had NOT scared their legs, so the Resistance to showing legs and arms ended and you had th Short shirts of the Flappers.

The same with breasts, they do "bounce". The bigger ones "bounce" more than the smaller ones, but all of them "bounce". If a woman is doing ANY physical activity she has to "secure" them from "bouncing". This is why women "hid" their breasts NOT to hid them, but to keep them under control. Throughout history you will see women's fashion that both "contained" the breasts and SHOWED THEM OFF. A woman's nipples tended to be hid even in these party dresses but we men knew they were there. Hiding Nipples seems more to come out of the habit of binding the Breasts for WORK activities, than to hide them more than the breasts themselves. In Dress clothes the Breasts were "Supported" and in the method of Support the Nibbles tended to be cover.

Given that most woman WORKED PHYSICAL LABOR before 1900 binding the breasts and covering up the nibbles were the norm. Like long dresses used to cover up scars, once something becomes a norm people accept it as "normal". Woman, even after the 1920s, still wanted to do "Physical Things" i.e. ride horses, skate, hike, etc, thus most woman had to "bind" their breasts just to be able to do these activities without their breasts getting in the way.

Since the 1960s there have been several movements to "Free Breasts" all have failed, not because of religious objections but that most woman need to bind their breasts when their are doing hard physical non-sexual activities. It is a sad fact most woman will want to put their breasts in a Bra sometime doing the day so their breasts do not interfere with the WORK their are doing.

Remember just because a Religion says something is wrong, does not make the wrong Solely a sin. For Example Murder is wrong, and every religion says so, that does not make opposition to Murder SOLELY a religious objections, the same with objections to showing breasts, just because some people object on religious grounds to woman showing breasts, does not mean the opposition to showing breasts is only religious in nature. Once you see woman do PHYSICAL LABOR or HARD EXERCISE, you will see almost all woman bind their breasts, not for religious reasons BUT NEED. Once something is "NEEDED" it becomes the norm, and that is why woman in most of the world do NOT show off their breasts, breasts can get in the way of DOING ACTUAL WORK unless bound, and once bounded, breasts tend to stay bounded.

[slinkerwink]

270. I don't bind my breasts, and I can run

and bras are more like torture tools to me.

[happyslug]

271. They are always exceptions to the Rule

But my sisters, (Who are naturally "C" "D" and "EE" cups) ALL wore some sort of "binding" to prevent their breasts from "Beating me up" as my one sister called it.

Now one of my sister who had a "smaller cup" was into Karate and she always wore a sports bra to keep her breasts where she wanted them to be when she was working out.

Thus while you may not need a Bra, other woman do. As in the case of long dresses, as long a you had a sizable MINORITY of woman who still had the scars you had Resistance to short shirts. Some woman were still were using iron pots in the early 1900s for steel pots were more expensive AND the iron pots were in their household (Pots tended to be replaced as needed NOT when someone wanted a new pot). It is only as the vast majority of young woman no longer had scars did short dresses come into fashion in the 1920s. Once it was no longer common for woman to have scared legs, the Resistance to short dresses ended (and as long as you had a sizable number of woman with such legs you you had Resistance, i.e. 1880s-1920).

The same with bras, as long as a sizable minority of woman (and I think it is more the majority of woman) want to wear something to control their breast when doing physical activities, breasts will be covered. The key is NOT one or two people, but what is the norm for the society. What do most people see most of the time.

[peach720]

285. I am actually more comfortable wearing

a bra, then not. I never go out without one.
I think it can depend on the type as to whether you
get comfort. I also love t-shirts which and built in
bra's. They give a good shape too.

[kayell]

280. Bras are a very recent invention, as are most other support like corsets

So your argument re:bras falls apart. Also the fashion for "binding" was prevalent in the 1920s was not about support, but about a fashion fad that went for the "boyish" look of a flat chest. Kind of like the weird clothing a bras of the fifties that produced the MonoTit_TM look, it was just a weird fashion statement, and not a functional issue. Bras are almost always about fashion. If you were a women, you would probably know that.

For most women, support is completely unnecessary. I am not sure that shouldn't read it is unnecessary for ALL women. The human species survived for millenia without "support" during which time, I am quite sure that women were involved in heavy physical work, and yet breasts continued to function.

From a personal standpoint I can tell you that bras are one of the most excruciatingly uncomfortable devices that anyone could ever be forced to wear. Having bands of elastic stretched around your body blocking the flow of perspiration during work is not comfortable. The extra layers of fabric are very uncomfortable during hot weather. I won't wear them in cold weather either. If you would like to find out why, I suggest you spend the next few weeks wearing one, and fully appreciate how uncomfortable they are.

I have worked physically hard outside during the summer wearing a shirt and bra, just shirt, or bare breasted at various times. By FAR the most comfortable is bare breasted. There are certain kinds of work for which it would be safer to wear cover and generally those are the same kinds of circumstances when men don coverings as protection also.

The idea that sports bras are a necessity is of very, very recent invention by those who sell such apparel. Most people who think they are necessary, do so because they have been told that over and over again.

There are a lot of reasons for clothing, some functional, some fashion, some oppressive, some status oriented. Probably a lot of other issues too. Your essay is far from complete in covering the many aspects of female clothing, yet you present it as though it is the full story.

[happyslug]

296. Bras are a product of the 1880s

Corsets are older (Going back to the 1600s) but those are not the only way to support beasts, most clothing for women prior to the invention of the bra tended to be custom made to give support to her breasts (Thus no need for a bra or corset). The Ancient Greeks and Romans women would "bind" their breasts with a wrap of clothes to provide additional support (This is the sense I used the term "binding" not in the sense of the 1920 flapper boyish look).

One of the main reasons for the widespread adoption of the bra was the Sewing machine. Prior to the Sewing machine (1850s) ALL SEWING WAS BY HAND. Hand stitching can be not only be stronger than a machine stitch BUT permit more "customizing" of the clothing. Thus the difference in woman's breasts would be adjusted by hand sewing the clothes to match her body. Simplified versions of this sewing tactic can be seen in the Bodice of the Middle ages (Which was considered a "Classic" women's design for over a 1000 years).

Prior to the Sewing Machine, it took was just as long to sew a straight line as a curved to fit line. Given that they was no difference in time most woman's clothes were made to fit her body. With the Sewing Machine, straight lines became very easy to sew, while custom sewing jobs (Generally still hand stitched) would take hours longer. The bra permitted woman to wear clothes with straight lines, the bra provided the support, not the clothing. Thus the adoption of the Sewing machine and the Bra are connected (along with the fact it takes a sewing machine to sew a bra, the time to hand stitch such an piece of clothing would take hours).

Now as to your use of no bra, I have know several woman who agrees with you, and several woman who do not (The biggest difference seems to be cup size, the bigger the natural cup, the more likely for the woman to want some sort of support). I am trying to restrict my response to the issue of the Bra, but like most things in life the answer is more complex than most people think, as can be seen in me bringing in the Sewing machine in regards to the Bra.

[kayell]

298. In terms of how long humans survived without bras 1880s is very recent

I don't understand why this would be used as support (heh) for covering womens breasts nowadays. Am I misunderstanding you? There are plenty of other outmoded ways of dressing that we have happily and easily abandoned.

If people want to wear a bra or always be covered, so be it for them. But I think that in areas where men would often go shirtless, I should not be culturally or legally forced into the discomfort of the extra layers of fabric. Areas and activities that immediately come to mind - the beach, sunning or playing sports in a park, gardening in the yard, washing the car...

The details about the sewing machine are interesting, but are they relevant?

[happyslug]

299. Shock and Awe.

I was trying to show WHY hiding breasts is the Norm and how hiding breasts came about and why hiding breasts has lasted so long(and probably will last a good bit longer). To understand this better remember the old saying about news "Dog biting man is NOT new, MAN BITING DOG IS NEWS". i.e. what is expected in NOT news, what is NEW is NEWS (i.e. hiding breasts is NOT news, reveling breast can shock people and as such is NEW).

Please note for the remainder of this thread when I use the term "Public Area" I am excluding, nude beaches, homes and other places people go to look for members of the opposite sex or for sexual gratification. When I use the term "Public Area" I will mean areas where people go to shop, work, play and go to be educated (I know many people go to High School and College to meet the opposite sex, but for this paper I will assume people are in School to be educated NOT to find a mate).

So want is "NEWS"? Something different from the "Norm". What is accepted as the "Norm" will remain so as long a there are good reasons for it to remain the "Norm". Once the reason for it being the "Norm" is over (as in the replacement of long dresses with short dresses starting in the 1920s do to the lack of scaring that had been the norm till the widespread adoption of the lightweight steel pots and ovens in period 1900-1920) thing change if the change is viewed as a good thing.

When dress length is set by function, it is generally set at knee length (Some time a little above, sometime a little below). Knee length is the most comfortable length for the dress, it is not to long that the skirt itself prevents you from walking or running, it is not to short so that when it bounces while running a woman can feel comfortable no one is seeing more than her legs. Once woman were no longer scaring their legs with iron pots, knee length dresses became the norm (With some extension to mini-skits and maxi-skirts, but these never last long, not practical for work wear).

The same problem faces breasts, except in location where people are looking for sex (or to meet someone of the opposite sex), woman showing off their breasts is the RARE exception not the rule nor a common exception. Most people have NOT seen a woman's breast in the public area. I admit I have not (Not that I have not looked, but I am not in a college area).

My point is that as long as it is RARE to see a breast in public, any showing of a breast will bring with such a display of objection. The objection is one of shock (I can not believe what I just show!!!!) NOT one of sex.

Woman going bare-breasted in public is a radical change and will shock people. It is the shock that brings the objection not the breasts. Such shock will remain as long as breasts are the RARE exception to be seen as opposed to the "norm".

A good example of such "shock" was the first one piece bathing suits of the 1910s. It looked like today' one piece bathing suits but was banned for people where shocked by its design (But it was accepted within ten years given its use in woman's swimming contests where such a design had to be worn, the older Victorian era bathing suits were never designed to be swam in).

The problem is while they are a small group of woman who would like to go bare breasted, most woman (or a sizable minority) do not want to (Mostly for support reasons). Unlike the one piece swim suit, they is no real advantage in going bare-breasted as going with a blouse on. While the reasons for covering up the breasts seems to be passe (Like the old fashion Victorian Bathing suits and the long dresses of the pre-1920 period) no good reason exists for woman to go bare breasted (unlike the one piece swim suit and the shorter dress length).

This is the problem, how to overcome the shock of seeing woman's breasts in public? I see no big push by MOST woman to be able to go top less in normal public areas. As to men going top less, that has been the case since at least 1900 so it is the "norm" today. I rarely go top-less (I like wearing clothes) but some men feel that they have to take their shirts off. It is not "fair" to woman who want to go top less, but it is the shock of woman going top less that is the problem NOT that men can go top less.

My point was to show the Rationale for the difference in treatment not to justify the difference. I also wanted to show what costs involved in making a change and is it worth it? That is up to society as a whole, I am just stating the facts as I see them

[noiretextatique]

273. no...

of course not. it's part of the twisted belief that some is "wrong" with women's bodies.

[noiretextatique]

279. should men with breasts be forced to cover them?

there are quite a few out there...why the double standard?

[Cronus Protagonist]

284. I was at a Peter Gabriel concert and a native African singer exposed

I was at a Peter Gabriel concert and a native African singer exposed his "breast" and a man in the seat behind me leapt out of his seat and exclaimed, "I think I'm offended!" and went to make a complaint to the security personnel. It turns out he didn't know it was a man :)

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[noiretextatique]

290. perfect!

thanks for sharing :D

[Cronus Protagonist]

333. True story - he also kicked the back of my head

For asking him to speak more quietly as I wanted to enjoy the show. I set security on him and had out party moved much closer to the action for free. His loss, my gain. :)

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[pippin]

286. Breasts are SWEAT GLANDS for heaven's sakes!

Why does our culture make such a big deal about them. I think a lot of people need to put their feet in sacks and bring them out only at night. Those of us who came originally from other places in the world are frequently horrified by the big, big, UGH-LY feet (male and female) that are allowed to go public!! :-)

[StayOutTheBushes]

289. Sweat?

In humans, there is one pair of mammary glands, also known as mammae, or breasts. They are rudimentary in both sexes until the age of puberty when, in response to ovarian hormones, they begin to develop in the female. During pregnancy, they distend still further in preparation for nursing the infant. Pregnant women are prevented from lactating (producing milk) by the presence in the blood of high levels of estrogen and progesterone, secreted by the placenta until birth occurs. 2
After birth, response to prolactin, the milk-stimulating hormone, is no longer inhibited by placental hormones, and lactation begins. Mammary tissue contains between 15 and 20 compartments called lobes, each of which is divided into smaller compartments called lobules. The lobes and lobules are connected by a network of tubes whose cells manufacture the liquid and fatty substances that form milk. The tubes of each lobe connect with a duct, and all ducts lead to the nipple, where the milk is secreted when the nipple is sucked by the young. The letdown of milk during the nursing process is aided by oxytocin, a hormone secreted by the pituitary. The physical force of an infant’s sucking on the breast is a major stimulus to milk production. Disorders of the mammary gland include mastitis and breast cancer.

[slinkerwink]

300. um...breasts are not sweat glands----they are mammary glands

[Zomby Woof]

302. Titties and Beer

It was the blackest night
There was no moon in sight
You know the stars ain’t shinin’
’cause the sky’s too tight
I heard the scarey wind
I seen some ugly trees
There was a werewolf honkin’
’long the side of me

I’m mean ’n I’m bad, y’know I ain’t no sissy
Got a big-titty girly by the name of Chrissy
Talkin’ about her ’n my bike ’n me...
’n this ride up the mountain of mystery, mystery

I noticed even the crickets
Was actin’ weird up here
And so I figured I might
Just drink a little beer
I said, gimme summa that what yer suckin’ on...
But there was no reply
’cause she was gone...

Where’s those titties that I like so well
’n my goddamn beer!
Is what I started to yell, then I heard this noise
Like a crunchin’ twig, ’n up jumped the devil...he’s about this big...

He had a red suit on
An’ a widow’s peak
An’ then a pointed tail
’n like a sulphur reek
Yes, it was him awright
I sweared I knowed it was
He had some human flesh
Stuck underneath his claws
You know it looked to me
Like it was titty skin
I said, you sonofabitch!
’cause I was mad at him,
Well he just got out his floss
’n started cleanin’ his fang
So I shot him with my shooter
Said: bang bang bang

Then the sucker just laughed ’n said, put it away...
You know, I ate her all up...now what you
Gonna say?
You ate my chrissy? titties ’n all!
Well, what about the beer then, boy? were the cans
This tall?
Even her boots? would I lie to you?
Shit, you musta been hungry! yes, this is true.
Well don’t they pay you good for the
Stuff that you do?
Well, you know, I can’t complain when the checks come through...

Well I want my Chrissy, ’n I want my beer
So you just barf it back up now, devil,
Do you hear?

Blow it out your ass, motorcycle man! I mean, I am the devil,
Do you understand? just what will you give me
For your
Titties and beer? I suppose you noticed this little
Contract here... yer goddam right, you son-of-a-whore,
Don’t call me that
That’s about the only reason
...gimme that paper...bet yer ass I’ll sign...
’cause I need a beer, ’n it’s titty-squeezin’ time

Man, you can’t fool me...you ain’t that bad...
I mean you shoulda seen some of the souls I had...
Why there was milhous nixon ’n agnew, too...
’n both of those suckers was worse ’n you...

Well, let’s make a deal if you think that’s true
I mean, you’re the devil, so whatcha gonna do?

(improvised dialog)
Wait a minute...a tinge of doubt crosses my mind...when you say...
That you want to make a deal with me...

That’s very, very true
I’m only interested in two things
Yeah?
See if you can guess what they are

I would think...uh...let’s see, maybe stravinsky...

I’ll give you two clues. let go of your pickle

What?

Let go of your pickle!

I’m not holding my pickle

Well, who’s holding your pickle then?

I don’t know...she’s out in the audience...
Hey dale, would you like to come up here and hold
My pickle to satisfy this weird man out on the stage?

I’m only interested in two things, and that’s
Titties and beer
You know what I mean?
What?
Titties and beer
Titties and beer
Titties and beer
Titties and beer
Titties and beer
Titties and beer
Titties and beer!
Titties and beer!
I don’t know if you’re the right guy?
Titties and beer!
Titties and beer!

No! don’t sign it! give me time to think...
I mean hold on a second boy, ’cause that’s magic ink!

And then the devil let go of his pickle
And out come my girl, there was her titties
Flop-floppin’...all around the world

She said I got me three beers and a fistful of downs
And I’m gonna get ripped, so fuck, you clowns!
Then she gave us the finger, it was rigid and stiff
That’s when the devil, he farted
And she went right over the cliff!
The devil was mad, I took off to my pad
I swear I do declare, how did she get back there?
I swear I do declare, how did she get back there?
I swear I do declare, how did she get back there?
I swear I do declare, how did she get back there?
I swear I do declare, how did she get back there?

FZ

[slinkerwink]

304. I'm loving the misogynism there....

[Zomby Woof]

307. joke's on you

This is satire, and not for the humorless.

Edit: I am honest enough to admit that there is such a word upon correction, but the accusation that you lack a sense of satirical irony stands.

[slinkerwink]

308. misogynism is also a word....

here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misogynism

It looks like you didn't get your money's worth at whatever high school you graduated from.

[Zomby Woof]

310. being a public school

I guess I didn't get my money's worth... since it was free.

Oh! I get it! You think I am dumb! Haha... another joke on you.

But hey, you slander me with humorless accusations and still haven't publicly apologized for dragging my name through the mud on here, so until you do...

Titties and beer! :toast:

[slinkerwink]

311. I haven't forgotten that thread where you insinuated that I got

my internship by being on my knees, and you know what that meant.

[Zomby Woof]

316. it was a joke

In poor taste, I grant you. But not the same as a lie. You don't have the upper-hand here. Tasteless comments are one thing, but slander is another. Plus, you slandered another DUer who didn't even make a lousy joke about you. So what's your excuse for the way you treat people even less offensive than me? :P

[slinkerwink]

317. that other DUer also behaved horribly towards me, but he and I have made

up.

[Zomby Woof]

319. awwwwww

That is very sweet. :hug:

[StayOutTheBushes]

322. Public School free?

I don't think so.

[Zomby Woof]

323. meaning...

I didn't pay tuition, nor the property taxes. Free to ME. Free to ALL of the students.

So your point?

[StayOutTheBushes]

328. Your family was paying.

It wasn't free.

[TankLV]

305. Only if they start to sag too much, like my ass lately.

Perky ones are fun to look at - even for a gay man!

We could also wish men with "he-boobies/man-breasts" would cover up tho, too. Not to mention wearing speedos that are so small their gut hides the speedos.

Big time yuck!

[camero]

312. Locking

No sex threads. :D

[Clyyyde]

314. the more

t#ts the better

[slinkerwink]

315. please don't call breasts "tits" on here

just refer to them as breasts.

[maveric]

320. Lets not hand on this thread looking to be offended.

C'mon allready!

[Zomby Woof]

324. slang makes English more colorful

The aim of the Thought Police is to deaden language, and with it, thought and creativity. It is repressive behavior.

So I say we also call breasts knockers, hooters, or gazongas.

And of anyone thinks that is sexist, I have a hundred more slang terms for the penis. Neither set is sexist. Vulgar maybe, but not sexist.

What are they programming people with these days?

[StayOutTheBushes]

329. C +++

.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

318. Yikes I've never seen a topic this hot.

Personally I think it depends on the time and place and how good that person looks. Let me clarify. On a legal basis breasts are not obscene and women should not be arrested for indecent exposure for showing such.

On a practical basis when does one expose one's breasts or go with out a shirt? Usually in a women's case when nursing a child or a man's when it's a hot summer day. At the very least a woman should not be arrested for using her breasts for their intended purpose in a public place.

That said some look okay topless some do not including yours truly. As a man it's not illegal for me to be without a shirt in public. With the gut I have I won't wear less than a tank top in public. Unless of course I'm swimming. Then wearing a shirt makes the act a bit impractical. Personally I wouldn't like to see a woman exposed who was overweight and saggy but so what?

The truth is there's no Constitutional right to not be offended. That goes for me and for the handful of prudes on this board that find all nudity offensive.

[mmonk]

321. "Should women be forced to cover their breasts?"

not on my account.

Society will have to let go of some of its Victorian vestiges though.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

326. You people are all insane!

This is about the HEADSCARF BAN in France! Geez, I "got it" right away. Some people say that headscarves are oppressive and sexist because only Muslim women wear them. They say that in order to protect French Muslim girls from the "oppression" of wearing a headscarf, the girls should be prohibited from wearing them even if they want to.

I think Dr. Weird's point was that you could say the same thing about women in the U.S. Only American women routinely cover their breasts, so that must mean that American women are oppressed. To protect American women from this oppression, we should be forced to go topless, whether we want to or not.

It is a ridiculous argument, isn't it? But so is the argument of those who say that the headscarf ban in France is somehow protecting Muslim girls and women from oppression -- when in actuality, it is only taking away their right to dress as they choose.

Now, can we please let this thread die?

edit: typo

[Karenina]

327. I reiterate...

Funniest. Thread. Ever. Alerted a few friends whose reactions succinctly described were :wtf: :eyes: :wow: :freak: :eyes: then got a call referring me to a Dutch paper, De Telegraaf, which reported an old sailing ship docking in Jacksonville... the bow had a carved nekkid lady on the front, and the school children on a field trip to the port had to be quickly whisked away that they NOT be exposed to such...

Headscarfs cannot be included in this discussion. REALLY. A 6 year old in 30 grad DOES NOT DECIDE she wants to be wrapped up in BLACK FABRIC. Especially not when her friends are not subjected to such at school. France has SECULARISM written into her Constitution. I'm NOT surprised that Amis try to weigh-in to the discussion from their own VERY LIMITED vantage point.

[ArkDem]

330. reminds me of Scene 1

KING ARTHUR: Whoa there!

SOLDIER #1: Halt! Who goes there?
ARTHUR: It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle of Camelot. King of the Britons, defeater of the Saxons, Sovereign of all England!
SOLDIER #1: Pull the other one!
ARTHUR: I am,... and this is my trusty servant Patsy. We have ridden the length and breadth of the land in search of knights who will join me in my court
at Camelot. I must speak with your lord and master.
SOLDIER #1: What? Ridden on a horse?
ARTHUR: Yes!
SOLDIER #1: You're using coconuts!
ARTHUR: What?
SOLDIER #1: You've got two empty halves of coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.
ARTHUR: So? We have ridden since the snows of winter covered this land, through the kingdom of Mercia, through--
SOLDIER #1: Where'd you get the coconuts?
ARTHUR: We found them.
SOLDIER #1: Found them? In Mercia? The coconut's tropical!
ARTHUR: What do you mean?
SOLDIER #1: Well, this is a temperate zone.
ARTHUR: The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our
land?
SOLDIER #1: Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
ARTHUR: Not at all. They could be carried.
SOLDIER #1: What? A swallow carrying a coconut?
ARTHUR: It could grip it by the husk!
SOLDIER #1: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
ARTHUR: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?
SOLDIER #1: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
ARTHUR: Please!
SOLDIER #1: Am I right?
ARTHUR: I'm not interested!
SOLDIER #2: It could be carried by an African swallow!
SOLDIER #1: Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
SOLDIER #2: Oh, yeah, I agree with that.
ARTHUR: Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court at Camelot?!
SOLDIER #1: But then of course a-- African swallows are non-migratory.
SOLDIER #2: Oh, yeah.
SOLDIER #1: So, they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway.

SOLDIER #2: Wait a minute! Supposing two swallows carried it together?
SOLDIER #1: No, they'd have to have it on a line.
SOLDIER #2: Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper!
SOLDIER #1: What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
SOLDIER #2: Well, why not?

[Mushroom]

331. shaking head

this is fucked up.

To toy with the people on this thread, and to allow this discussion to continue on was so wrong.

I wasn't even near the head scarf discussion, I have no idea what people posted - I just can't see what could have been said so horrible that warranted this cruelty, to upset people to make a damned point.

Here's to insanity.

b'bye