Does America need another four years of Bush*?

[Q]

- We constantly hear the battle cry from the Left that the US can't afford another four years of the horrible Bush* government. I've said it a few times myself. But it's becoming clear that neither a majority of the American people or the Democratic party has come away with an understanding of what made the Bush* administration possible. Lessons were taught but not learned.

- What should we have learned since 2000? The most important lesson we seemed to have ignored is that injustice must be met with immediate corrective measures and swift justice instead of political opportunism and appeasement.

- We've been told to 'move on' about the 2000 campaign and election despite the fact that it was these events that brought us to where we are today. We have a broken democracy and corrupt government because too few on our side stood up for what was right and decent.

- Once the illegitimate Bush* government and their media operatives understood that they had stolen an American election without suffering any consequences...they were emboldened to push ahead with their extremist, anti-democratic agenda. Those on the left who refused to impede their march towards totalitarianism are just as responsible for the very existence of the Bush* government.

- After stealing an election...the Bush* government went on to simply putting themselves above the law and refusing to be held accountable to the other branches of government or to the people. They were now untouchable by the laws of the land because they were an 'outlaw' government working outside of the law. They ruled by executive order and decree and the legislative and judicial branches became their rubber stamps. The Bush* government snubbed their noses at the Constitution and refused to subject themselves to the traditional checks and balances of representative government.

- From forming a secret shadow government to hiding the Reagan/Bush presidential papers to allowing energy corporations to write the national energy policy to bold lies that drove this nation to war...the loyal opposition has time and again backed down in the face of corruption and tyranny while advising Americans to 'move on' and look to the future. That we haven't used the lessons of the past to guide our future guarantees that we'll continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

- Democracy died in 2000...but there are too few mourners and no one to give the eulogy. Do we need another four years of the most corrupt American government in history before we finally begin to deal with the reality of what is right before our eyes? Will we take lessons from the past and use them to forge a better future for all? Or will it take losing everything before we miss what we had and what we could have been?

[pippin]

1. Actually, your question should have been . ..

"does the world need four more years of George Bush?"

[Q]

3. We're on our own...

...and it's up to the American people. If Bush* 'wins' in 2004 he'll have a 'mandate' to continue his horrible foreign and domestic policies. If he wins...it will be because we haven't done our jobs in upholding the law and prosecuting this government's criminal acts.

- The biggest mistake the Democratic party is making is in thinking the best way to get rid of Bush* is to vote him out of office.

[thinkingwoman]

16. Hear, Hear!

"The biggest mistake the Democratic party is making is in thinking the best way to get rid of Bush* is to vote him out of office."

We hear constantly that it is not possible to impeach Bush because the Repukes control Congress. I believe that is bull. Vast public opinion has been the only thing that has backed the Bushies down at any time during W's reign. The Dems could have systematically gone to the court of public opinion with the ample evidence of W's high crimes at numerous times over the past three years, and the public would eventually have called for W's head on a platter.

The Dems have betrayed the American people as much or more than the Repukes (go ahead and flame away, I can take it). It's taken me a long time to realize it, but it's the truth. BOTH parties are corrupt to the core. The system is far more broken than we'd like to admit.

That being said, of course Dems should vote in mass against W this fall and hope for the best. But simply defeating him, if possible given the Diebold factor, will NOT fix what is wrong with American Democracy.

</rant>

[gula]

45. Thank you. You have spoken for the millions of us

outside the US who watch helplessly as the most powerful nation on earth wrecks havoc on the entire planet.

We have also noticed that democracy in the US is very sick indeed and that it has been a government by and for the big corporations and special interest groups for quite some time now. Which is why the very idea of the US exporting democracy is such a hoot (or it would be were it not for the deadly consequences).

While most of us do differentiate between the people and the government I am afraid that if Bu$h gets another term, no matter how he gets it, that may change as it would be a signal that most Americans do stand behind him.

Please, please, please do NOT let this happen.

[Andy_Stephenson]

60. We may have no choice

Diebold will see to that.

[charlie]

62. A-Yup

Even when they're not being evil, they're woefully lax -- Diebold ATM crashes, exposing it's WinXP base, big laffs ensue.

[bryant69]

2. What would you propose?

I mean based on yoru argument, what should I, as a member of Democratic Underground, do?

Would you encourage me not to vote or to vote for President Bush, so that we get what we deserve?

Just curious.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Q]

4. No...

...I'm suggesting that the Democratic party stop ignoring the rule of law and prosecute Bush* and his goons for their lies and corruption.

- I simply don't understand why our party has such a difficult time in making a decision to pursue justice in the name of the people and the Constitution. It seems to me they're laying back...waiting to step in and pick up the pieces after Bush* destroys the nation and world peace. They should be fighting Bush* at every turn...not waiting for the 'right moment'.

[bryant69]

8. Impeachment then?

As for the second question, I don't agree with some of the moves the party has made to lay down for President Bush, but I also understand the wisdom of picking one's fight.

[Touchdown]

5. We didn't need the first four! Whaddayatalkinabout?

n/t

[jpgray]

6. As usual, we'll get what we deserve

Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't deserve four more years of Bush. We're the ones who voted him in, we have a responsibility to get him out. If we can't, then things will really get interesting, and the Democratic Party will have to become more of the solution and less part of the problem if it wants to win widespread support again. In other words, if our moderate platform loses against this monster, it's time for some house cleaning and a shift back to the left--at least then we can speak some more truth while we lose.

[Q]

33. I'm not so sure we 'voted him in'...

...it's a stretch of the imagination to think that the Supreme Court stopping the counting of votes equates with a free and fair election. But I understand what you mean...America allowed Bush* to happen.

- In November...it's our election to lose. If we do lose...it will be because we didn't do enough to counter the lies of the American corporate media as they created an image of Bush* as a great and decisive leader.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

35. If so many people wouldn't have voted for his illiterate ass.

He would not have been anywhere near as close to steal the election.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

9. Hey I wonder

COuld this guy be a freeper? Do you suppose he hates President to be Kerry and likes President Aggressive Moron Bush? Do you suppose he's a blood sucking vampire who has risen from the grave to attack?

Anything is possible.

[thinkingwoman]

17. HEY!

Don't slander vampires that way! ;-)

He's more of a tick really.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

11. See ya! 5, 4, 3, 2, 1..............

[MAlibdem]

12. wtf

if you want to be sarcastic, use the /sarcasm notation...

[phaseolus]

13. Bye-bye, troll.

n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Art_from_Ark]

14. "Defending" America?

Are you referring to beating the crap out of a nearly totally disarmed country based on lies and innuendo?

If you want four more years of this crap, you need to have your head examined.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

24. Your side drinks the 'hatorade'

Rush and Ann Coulter aren't exaxtly restrained in their use of pejoratives.

[Q]

28. Strange that you equate disagreement with 'hate'.

- But that's what the right has always done. You ranted for a decade that Clinton wasn't 'above the law' and even forced him to testify under oath about a consensual affair. Now your attitude seems to be that Bush* is above the law concerning matters with much more serious consequences than sex in the White House.

- We want Bush* out of our WH for many reasons...but most of all because he's an immoral crook.

[Art_from_Ark]

32. You're nuts if you think bu$h is a better choice

I live overseas, I get to see first-hand the effects of his crappy foreign policy. Thanks to bu$h, there is more hostility toward Americans in South Korea. The Japanese have been pressured by bu$h to violate their constitution. He has stirred up a hornet's nest with North Korea, making people in Japan panicky about the situation when no panic existed during Clinton's time, even when the missile was shot over northern Japan.

Bush's people have ridiculed long-time friends like France and Germany, going so far as to mock them as "Old Europe" and "surrender monkeys". His minions have overthrown a democratically-elected government in the Western Hemisphere and nearly overthrew another. He is using arrogant strong-arming to bully allies "into line", which is breeding resentment.

On the domestic front, the worst terrorist attack that had occurred previous to bu$h was the work of a home-grown, mom-and-apple-pie kind of guy. Now with bu$h in power, "Al Qaeda" is under every rock, and color-coded "terror alerts" are given to reinforce the feeling that one no longer lives in a relatively safe country.

Bu$h's vandals have also raided the Treasury, giving themselves nice big fat tax cuts while stripping money from programs that help the poor, the disadvantaged, and the elderly. Bu$h took the biggest yearly surplus in history and turned it into the biggest deficit in history, and is placing the burden of payment on future generations.

New outrages are happening every day. You really need to open your eyes to see what bu$h has been doing. We definitely cannot stand four more years of this crap.

[charlie]

15. Mark Farner, izzat you?

I trust you're posting this from Iraq and not your pony farm in Flint :)

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie]

29. No longer

Don and Mel are on the road without you. Maybe you and Ted can reprise the Amboy Dukes, with cool camo and facepaint, show those weak-kneed libbruls what a fully-accessoried rough and tough chickenhawk looks like.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

18. Is it OK to call trolls assholes? Or is that a personal attack?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. I didn't know trolls had feelings. Guess which finger I'm holding up.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

27. We get enough right wingers on TV and the zoo. We don't need any here.

How about that thought?

[Q]

23. You're confusing sarcasm...

...with capitulation.

- 'Getting approval' is a RWing meme to excuse Bush's* unilateral, aggressive wars and war crimes. Bush* wants a dicatorship and so do you. If you don't want a representative government...try another country. We refuse to give up ours.

[MAlibdem]

10. your post reminds me of this Ted Rall cartoon

[Deja Q]

30. YES! (yes, I have a follow-up to this wild claim!)

Counterquestion: When peak oil subsides and the economy irreparably collapses, who is going to get the blame? The President will be automatically blamed by the fucktwats. The repukes will cruelly manipulate the crash to blame the non-Republican, despite being direct supporters of the pigs who wasted such a valuable resource... Why not? It'll give them more power to stage a far worse coup...

Few are going to remember that JIMMY CARTER said "We have to do in 1980 to prevent what will happen in 2005." Had Carter been re-elected in 1980, instead of having Reagan's gaggle of pirates manipulate the hostage crisis for his own benefit, things today might have been different...

[Q]

31. And..the Democratic party needs to fill in the gap...

...in the absence of a free press. We have been 'sleeping' while the Right has bought up the media and installed operatives in every level of government.

- The media tells one side of the story: Republicans as victims and Democrats as the 'enemy of the state'.

- Democrats simply 'can't afford' to sit back any longer and expect democracy to save us from a criminal, corrupt Bush* government. RWingers would have absolutely no problem with doing what we seem reluctant to do: charge, indict, prosecute. We have the facts on our side. Let's use them to restore a true representative government and kick the corporations and 'church' out of DC.

[charlie]

34. Been waiting for 20+ years

since that narcoleptic boob Reagan was treated as the second coming of Teddy Roosevelt, the bipolar bagman for the shadow gov't Ollie North was recast as uber-patriot, and Mitchell and Hamilton wore out their backsides with self-patting for having averted "constitutional crises" for not doing a full court press on thoses assholes. What they avoided then has revisited us in spades today... and people wonder why some of us are bitter about the treatment Cynthia McKinney received from her own party.

[Q]

36. Yeah...isn't it weird that the Bush* government is full of criminals...

...and rejects from the Reagan/Bush administrations? But even Reagan and Poppy Bush were reluctant to incorporate their insanity into their agenda. Granted...Reagan and Poppy were horrible presidents...but they knew that America wouldn't accept the neocons and PNAC in broad daylight.

- It took puppet GWB* to bring them back into American government with a coup. They understood that the drunken coward GWB* could be led around like a dog on a leash and do their bidding without even understanding the ramifications.

- McKinney's treatment proved that the Democratic party has been infiltrated by those who would prefer a one party state and corporate government.

[opihimoimoi]

37. The NeoCons are the guilty guys who are just using Bush as a Puppet

They are the ones with the Power.resources, etc. They are the ones who gathered strength and unity from the Jerry Falwell's, Pat Robertson's, not to mention Corp America. They have found ways to exploit the system in ways the honest man would cringe. They have made America weaker by making America Dumber... then they can get away with their Spin Shit.

They have harnessed a cadre of whores on the media, the Press, and the rags. They have harnessed the churches/sheep who blindly follow the herder. They have mucho money....

But they still cannot stifle our hearts and minds who can see thru the spin.

We need more Coffee and Visine to open eyes and see/think clearly.
Our focus should be the larger picture than the Pubs world. We need reason and sanity to become passionate.

Recall that Germany had a Democracy in the 30's until they elected a really bad guy. I am not saying Bush is the H man but refer only of the loss of Freedom and Sanity as a consequence to falling for Spin Crap. Germans, despite being one of the brightest people on this Earth, fell for the crap and later, when it was too late to stop, saw their Cities, their Culture, their Historic Buildings, etc, and their NAME, destroyed and sullied.

This was the result of stupid voting. Murphy and Murphy, that old law firm: "Poor voting enhances the odds for bad shit to result; if bad shit can happen, it will."

[charlie]

39. The neocons are enjoying the fruits

of the groundwork laid long ago. Chimpy could not get away with the daily reinvention of his administration's intentions and utterances if it weren't for the compromised position of the erstwhile opposition party. Years ago Dems decided that the corporate financing Repubs enjoyed gave them an insurmountable advantage, so they decided they had no choice but to follow suit. Now they're caught in the middle with divided allegiances -- truly concerned with the welfare of the lunchbucket masses and afraid to say boo to megacorp donors, who see their investment in the party as insurance against a populist tide that would gut their gov't-sanctioned predations.

[charlie]

40. An aside...

One of the welcome benefits of the McCain-Feingold campaign financing laws, as far as I'm concerned, is a return to grassroots campaigning. The current moment that the laws have taken effect may be inopportune, since we're likely in the midst of a do-or-die election for the fate of the country, but that the stringent caps on what sorts of organizations and who can contribute has forced Democrats to make appeals to ordinary Joes for financing, is a good thing. Dean proved that there's a goldmine out there if voters can be moved to believe they're supporting someone who takes their interests seriously.

[opihimoimoi]

54. Exactly. sending Mac Ice Cream and Haupia Pies.

[JohnnyFianna1]

38. aHH GOOD OL' Jimmy Carter always full of wisdom

[chookie]

41. They must be exposed and discredited

$200 million dollars worth of propaganda will ensure that the election will be close. Or at least closer than it should, or would, were people seeing and thinking clearly.

The country is deeply divided. If we win this year, which is a distinct possibility, we will however have our collective feet in cement and the proverbial albatross about the neck, because the crooks are still entrenched everywhere, in positions of power and influence. They will happily work against their country's interests for political purposes, which is what they have been doing for 20 years now.

Winning the election won't be enough.

I think the discrediting part of this has begun -- there is certainly a lot out there now in the mainstream that documents their criminality. There certainly is a very clear choice for people to make now.

But some dramatic event must take place -- i.e. impeachment trials or Senate hearings -- to put this damaging period truly behind us. Othewise, it's just going to be like all those movies where the monster keeps coming back to life.

[davekriss]

42. The Brick Wall at the Back of the Theatre

The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
---Frank Zappa

I recall, Q, how shocked I was after December 12 2000 that there weren't massive marches in the streets, that the coup was taken so quietly by so many. I realized then that what we witnessed was the arrival of the first stage hands to dismantle the scenery (per the Zappa quote), and it has continued unabated since. Too many of our fellow 'audience' think it's still the same old play and, until they awaken, this will not slow down.

A result of this passivity, I think, emboldened the players behind Bush and I think contributed to the many "surprises" in the 2002 elections. Was 2002 a test for 2004? Bush wins in 2004? He said so confidently on his Meet the Press fiasco a short while back (the only thing he said with confidence). Why? Perhaps because he knows the "fix" is in?

The 2004 Election Has Already Been Rigged
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0309/S00131.htm
By Schuyler Ebbets
Posted September 2, 2003, quote:

The pollsters have recently been forced to admit that the majority of Americans are against the re-election of George Bush. Two wars, thousands of dead human beings, and nine million lost jobs later and people are beginning to realize that something is very wrong. In spite of this gradual awakening most registered voters continue to depend on TV for their news and they are kept woefully in the dark about issues like election reform and touch screen voting. The media has gone to great lengths to foster an illusion of legitimacy and normalcy surrounding the electoral process. People have been intentionally lead to believe that their vote counts and Bush could actually be booted out of office on Election Day. No way is Bush going to lose, it just can't happen. The 2004 election has already been rigged. The corporations and the military industrial complex have bought them selves a government and they aren't going to let some silly little presidential election jeopardize their investment.

<snip>

The Neocon election rigging juggernaut lurches forward unstoppable in the guise of so-called election reform. Two Republican dominated corporations, Election Systems & Software (ES&S), and Diebold Voting Systems, now control 80% of the vote count in the United States. As this transition has moved forward, a pattern of election upsets which overwhelmingly favor Republican candidates is emerging. These are test runs in preparation for the 2004 presidential selection. The Neocons have determined that elections can be manipulated easily with the new touch screen voting systems and when accompanied by a media pounding of lies the public will accept the rigged election results as fact. The greatest advantage of the new touch screen voting scam is the removal of a paper trail and the blockage of access to the inner workings of the software. ...

It would be admirable if the American people could resist the next rigged presidential election as they did the scam of 2000. Of course the 'Supreme Court five' would uphold the "proprietary/trade secrecy" protections and the bogus election results would be ruled as legitimate. The coming election fraud has been so well planned that it probably won't make it into the courts. With the help of the media, the Neocons will deliver the deathblow to democracy at the touch screen voting terminals.

And don't forget the upcoming $200 million spin of the Rovian Media Wurlitzer.

And, topical as it is, there's the "convenient" (March 12) death of Athan Gibbs, the post-2000-turned-activist and CEO of TruVote International, who engineered a high quality paper-trailed alternative to ES&S and Diebold electronic voting machines. See http://onlinejournal.com/evoting/031904Fitrakis/031904fitrakis.html.

It might be time to stick a fork in American Democracy, it might be done. Bush wins in 2004. Unless we get off our chairs and make the right thing happen!

"Get off the internet; I'll see you in the streets!"

[Cleita]

43. Very well put Q.

You should try to put your thoughts into an article and query it to some political periodical like "The Nation".

[Q]

47. Thanks...

...but my time is taken up trying to make a living and throwing out random thoughts here at DU.

- I'm glad to see that our beloved party hasn't been entirely taken over by those who think we must kiss Bush's* ass in order to win the hearts and minds of the phantom 'swing voters' and the faux patriots.

- Country and Constitution HAS to come before party.

[Cocoa]

44. advocating reelecting Bush?

on DU?

[Q]

46. Are you trying to prove you didn't read the thread premise?

- Another drive-by posting.

- I hope you can come back and explain the Democrat's lack of fight if Bush* somehow pulls off a win. The Bush* appeasers and Dem apologists should explain their 'strategy' to all of us if that happens.

- There's loyalty and then there's blind loyalty. My country right or wrong doesn't work any better than my party right or wrong.

[camero]

48. Interesting question and a great post

I'm constantly reminded of the Winston Churchill quote about America.

"Americans do eventually do the right thing, after they've exhausted every other option."

I loath to think that another Great Depression is what America really needs to wake up from it's slumber but it may fall that far before the re-awakening begins. Hopefully not.

The first thing to do with any wound is to stop the bleeding and getting GW out is a start. We can't just be quiet after Kerry is elected. We have to keep pushing.

[Q]

50. An endless cycle...

...of bitching about the 'other side' and doing nothing when our side gets in power. Everyone knows damn well that Democrats won't demand any changes from Kerry or any other Dem president. They'll just be glad to have THEIR SIDE in power.

- Republicans don't suffer from this weakness of lack of resolve. They don't need a real crime to go after a Democratic president...they'll make shit up just to put them on the defensive and block their agenda.

- Republicans are fighters. Democrats are afraid to get bloody. But that's what it's going to take if they want to share power instead of being slaves to the RWingers.

[camero]

53. Oh absolutely. You're right

I think it's the fact that they all sleep in the same bed so to speak.
Those of us on the lower rungs know that only mass protest and rioting are about the only ways to get somewhat fast change. And most are loath to do that.

I'm getting sick of voting for the lesser evil too but what can you do really. :shrug:

It's gonna take getting behind someone who really wants to swing the country back to the left. Sadly, most Americans wouldn't care as long as they can watch TV and have 50 brands of cereal on the shelf.

[kentuck]

49. We cannot discuss without figuring in the role of a "free press"...

And if the press continues to sleep as their war profits skyrocket, I do not see how any Party or anyone can counter what happened in 2000? A free press is that important.

[Q]

51. The press isn't sleeping...they're cheerleading...

...and they're well-paid cheerleaders at that. As we've discussed so many times...the American media has turned 'corporate' and are beholden to their shareholders first and the American people second.

- There's little possibility of turning this around as long as our government is beholden to the same corporations as the media...all sleeping in the same bed.

[kentuck]

52. True. The press is not sleeping in the literal sense....

But they are asleep at the wheel, figuratively speaking...

[opihimoimoi]

55. Q has a Point, s"Squeaky wheel get the grease.,"

We know we got the Goodness, so how come we not kicking ass?

We Gatta wake up and smell the coffee.

[Redleg]

56. Like a hole in the head.

We won't be able to survive another 4 years of Bush.

[not systems]

57. Democratic government is not a game.

The Republicans understand this and push candidates from dog catcher on up.

If Bush wins they will gain much more power over the machinery of state.

More positions in the bureaucracy will come under theocratic control.

Supreme court positions and many many Federal court slots will also
be filled by people not beholden to the constitution.

We will be lucky to fight back from this weak position that we
are in now four more years and our position will be even weaker.

The problem is the opposition has will to power and we have a
whistle through the grave yard everything will workout attitude.

Things don't just workout.

History happens.

We may become a one party state.

We may become a totalitarian theocracy.

Only God no other king at the helm just like the lyrics of "Let the Eagle Soars".

http://www.symbolman.com/corpabuse.html

[Q]

58. The RWingers have no interest in 'democratic government'...

...they want somethng else entirely. And they've been upfront and honest about it. They've never hidden the fact that they want to turn out nation into a corporate state that uses theocracy to control the masses. They want to install a ruling class that's served by the rest of us...and a nation on a permanent wartime footing that pays for war by robbing the poor.

- They're planning and we're simply...reacting. Even if Kerry wins...their 'shadow government' will still be in place and working to block the Democratic agenda.

[Hotler]

59. So true, so true, so true,

Q, I feel your passion. The silence from our elected Dem's on the hill is frightening. The neo-cons are bad news folks. The neo-cons aren't even repubs, they're just using the GOP as a tool to get in power. If they get a two handed grip on this country they'll throw the GOP aside and treat them like the rest of us. It won't be pretty.

[Q]

61. RWing Republicans are much more passionate...

..and would have SHUT DOWN our government if Clinton had lied this nation into a war of aggression on a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. They would have called for impeachment at the very least. They would have done this even if they were the minority party.

- I'm tired of hearing that Democrats can't do anything because they're in the minority. There's a lot they can do...including refusing to participate in Bush's* corrupt government and playing along with his phony war on (some) terrorism.

[Hotler]

63. Ya buddy, preaching to the choir.

The should be war cry coming off the hill.