"Moderate" friend says he will vote Bush......

[rocktop15]

I have a friend (who I have bombarded his inbox with link after link of atrocious things that Bush has done) that says he will probably vote Bush in November because he doesn't know what kind of job Kerry will do in office. He was in favor of the Iraq war (and still is) because he said Saddamm was a bad man.........He also said he'd vote for Edwards if he were the nominee. I've tried my hardest but he says I have a distorted view because all I read is this forum and "liberal" books. I told him picking the lesser of two evils is much better than the greater of two evils. I asked him to name one good thing Bush has done while in office-----He said banning late term abortion and invading Afghanistan. I, then, replied that those took no balls and weren't exactly true partisan issues. To a certain extent, he doesn't think voting matters. Please help!!! BTW we're both 18-19 yrs old if that means anything to you all. Thanks!!!

[countmyvote4real]

1. How about the draft coming back if * wins?

It's real easy to support the war and the consequences if your life isn't on the line. Pending the outcome of the election, your friend will get a chance to prove it.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rocktop15]

2. input?

Kerry needs all the votes he can get. Could ya'll help a brother out here? Thanks!!

[Terry_M]

3. 3rd party maybe?

If you can't convince him to vote for Kerry, maybe you can get him to vote Libertarian or something? At least that'd be one less vote for Bush...

[not systems]

4. If your friend is still for Bush now...

the best thing to do is encourage him not to vote by
playing of his belief that voting doesn't matter.

If Bush had real balls he would have prevented 911
instead of letting it happen then grand standing on
the bodies of the victims for the last 2 years.

Often trying to convince someone of something will
just harden their position.

The best bet is get him to widen his information sources,
loan him books you have read that may help overtime.

Good luck and welcome to DU.

[arcos]

17. interesting observation...

I had an internal debate on whether to do it or not in the 2000 in my country's presidential elections... I ended up convincing most to vote third party instead... who knows, maybe next time they will vote for your guy, but if you convince them voting is not worth it it will be hard to convince them back next time.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Thanks a lot!

For convincing people to vote 3rd party in 2000.

[aquart]

5. But he KNOWS what kind of job Bush does. Wait, you're 19?

Tell your friend about the draft that Bush is putting in place for his second term. Ask him if he knows that the few jobs hiring across this country are to staff draft boards. Tell him about the legislation to restart the draft that's working its way out of committee.

If he likes Afghanistan so much, I bet he'll be thrilled to step on a landmine there.

[ima_sinnic]

6. Let him know: Bush & gang have ramped up The Draft for June 2005

As prime potential cannon fodder, you and your friend might like to make it a mission to get the word out. I have compiled a bunch of links at my web site, see Impending Military Draft. Surely THIS would make your friend think twice about voting for the Party of War, Repression, Greed, Lies and Hyposcrisy.


By the way, because of other obligations I haven't been able to keep my web site as updated as I'd like. If I've missed any more recent links on the impending Military Draft that someone here at DU knows about, please let me know.

[fearnobush]

7. Does he need real job in the near future.

Unless his family is really rich, he will never have anything close to the opportunity I had under the Clinton years. Today the US Dept of Labor posted it's Feb job growth numbers: an abysmal 21,000 new jobs created. All of the them in the public sector and as temp jobs. You can tell him that the US economy needs to produce 126,000 jobs per month just to keep up with population growth, let alone the 2.5 million lost under Bush. Going to war will not create new jobs.

[Hamlette]

8. late term abortion

he did NOT ban late term abortions. Roe v Wade said late term abortions are ONLY legal when the life or health of the mother is at stake. He did NOTHING to change that. What they did was say doctors can't decide what is the best way to perform a late term abortion when the mother's life or health is at stake. They banned ONE WAY of performing the abortion.

It was cruel because other methods are more difficult. Doctors should decide how to perform the surgery, not lawmakers.

Read Roe v Wade. Have him read it too.

Anyone would have invaded Afghanistan. Hell, I would have invaded Afghanistan. No brainer.

[klyon]

21. That one confuses me ?

Why was invading Afghanistan good?
What about those innocent people?

If criminals came from Norway and blew-up buildings would we bomb Oslo?
Afghanistan was about putting a pipeline through. Which is under-construction now. Just an opportune happening?

I have yet to see one piece of evidence showing who brought down the Trade Towers.

Now we are moving into Pakistan. How crazy is that?

KL

[tech3149]

9. how about this idea

Instead of going after the acts of BushCo, give him some background on the people behind the administration. These people are not operating in your interest or his. At your age you'll be in a world of hurt for the rest of your life. If we don't get some power balance back in the hands of the people, how many options do you think you'll have to work towards a financial security?

Try these for a start
http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html
Serving Two Flags gives a background on the neocon influence and shows they are not operating in the interest of our country.

Laura Flanders book Bushwomen shows the history of Elain Chao, Gail Norton, Condi Rice, Karen Hughes, etc. These women have have a stainless steel set!

Don't forget liberalslikechrist.org if he's strongly religious.

Keep plugging away and let us know how it goes.

[newyawker99]

29. Hi tech3149!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[otohara]

10. Hope He & His Children Don't Mind Paying For Jr.'s Deficits

voting against one's interest is puzzling.

Give him copies of The Constitution, Bill of Rights -tell him to read them carefully, then point out how Bush and his buddies are using those precious papers to wipe their asses with.

[ShaneGR]

11. Move on

Screw your friend. He's a moron. Move on to those who have brains.

[LibertyorDeath]

12. Saddam was a bad man

a very very bad man.



"will probably vote Bush in November because he doesn't know what kind of job Kerry will do in office" is this his attempt at logic?

tell him the worst pResident in all of American history is going to lose with or without his vote.

[Bundbuster]

13. Send him this link -

Tell him to get back to you with his thoughts after watching these 26 clips:

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/

If he still says he's voting for AWOL, send him this one:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml

[xchrom]

14. more curious about how your friend is a moderate?

bush is extreme -- the person you describe has remained true to his school -- i.e. war good, bush good -- i don't see a moderate there.
du while definitely liberal -- is hardly area 51.
perhaps you are a better person than me but i cannot tolerate people like that in my life -- it just seems deadly to the spirit somehow.

[Toronto Ron]

16. The environment?

Ask your friend if it's important to him that his children will be able to breathe clean air and drink clean water in 5-10 years. They're certainly not going to get any cleaner with the idiot asshole in the whitehouse for another 4 years.

[Vickers]

18. Tell him to quit calling himself a "moderate"

If he thinks that the things Georgie has done are "moderate" he doesn't know the meaning of the word.

Maybe get him a dictionary?

[MissMarple]

30. Exactly. He is no moderate. Tell him that and then back off.

George&Co (because you can't separate George and his um... associates)are radical corporatists. I'd let him know that and then just keep quiet. But be ready with a list of contradictions between what they say and what they do. A short, pithy list should do it. And just be very unconcerned. He may have been enjoying the attention.

:evilgrin:

[mikehiggins]

19. Keep your mouth shut. He probably won't vote at all.

Just make sure YOU do. Voting among that age group is very low and if he does not have an absolute motivation to go to the polls it'll be a lot easier for him to stay home and play video games.

And stop trying to convince him. Most people in life don't really get a clue about what is going on in the world unless/until they personally get screwed or someone they care for comes home in a body bag.

We are only at the beginning of the campaign. Don't worry about this until October. If your friend still hasn't changed his mind, slip him a mickey on election day and then go vote.

Hey, works for me.

[klyon]

22. don't give up

Find out where he disagrees with this administration and build from there. Showing how some other thing is wrong in the same way. History will show the complete and utter failure of the policies of this band of thugs.

ask your friend If you disapprove of abortion how can up possibly condone bombing innocent people even just one.

Ask your friend if about the environment, energy policy, economy, education. All these things are potently negatives for BFEE.

corporate welfare
tax breaks for the rich
no bid contracts for friends
creative accounting
no child left behind
bill of rights
telecommunications
alternative fuel = good new jobs
insider trading
AWOL
jobs
fair wage
the list is long, I'm sure you can add to it

Don't give up, you never know what little thing you say could open the door.

Walk lightly and go in beauty
Peace
KL

[ThomWV]

23. Alcohol

I'd say that solution is simple. Just get him so drunk the night before the election that he can't get out of bed to vote.

[sandnsea]

24. Voting doesn't matter...

keep telling him that. He's not a moderate, better he not vote at all.

The only other possibility I can see is to ask him what the difference is between Kerry and Edwards. If he'd vote for Edwards, there's no reason not to vote for Kerry.

[leesa]

25. Invading Afghanistan makes no sense to anyone with a brain

It was an entirely innappropriate response to a criminal act ALLEGEDLY perpetrated by a non-Afghan living in Afghanistan. Carpet bombing a country for ten months to catch a handful of alleged criminals, none of whom were even from Afghanistan, makes zero sense.

[pop goes the weasel]

26. Minor disagreement

Even bin Laden wouldn't dispute his complicity in the terror attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. And he was behind the daily terror in Afghanistan, thanks to US interference there in the 1980s. Afghanistan had to be dealt with. However...

Invading (and I'm not convinced that an invasion was the best measure the US could have taken) would have been one thing, bombing was another.

Why do we have to bomb the heck out of a place before sending in troops? Oh yeah, so we don't have to send in troops in enough strength to actually hold the ground. That way, war can be instigated without a massive initial call-up of manpower so the people don't really think about what they are getting themselves into. That way, the pResident can declare "mission accomplished" early on, even though the US has still not gained control of the situation. That way, no one has to look at the faces of children and women who are killed by US weapons--or even count their bodies. That way, we can destroy what's left of a backward's nation infrastructure while giving the miscreants who were responsible for its collapse plenty of lead time to get away.

The situation in Afghanistan is tenuous, to put it mildly. We needed to put a lot more people in there after running the Taliban out to simply do reconstruction. Unlike in Iraq, Afghanistan was largely emptied of the sorts of trained professionals who can run and maintain a modern nation. We needed to keep our promise to come up with the money necessary. We needed to keep our promise to the women of Afghanistan. But all that would have required real work, real dedication, and a real concern. It wouldn't have been grabbing headlines and advancing the "War pResident's" image as a <snort> "leader." No canny photo ops. And so the stage had to be set for another air war. Meanwhile, conditions in Afghanistan deteriorate and the Taliban creeps back into power.

[rocktop15]

31. A logical thought from a different viewpoint

People sit here and bitch and moan about us killing women and children but that fact of the matter is those same whiny people piss and moan when we go into other countries like Samalia and Iraq for an example to stop it.

[underpants]

27. If W makes us safer then why aren't we safe?

Maureen Dowd had something to that effect in her "See Dick run" piece yesterday.

Many people seem to think that we are in danger and the best way to keep us safe is to not "change horses in midsream" but if we are in danger why is that? W isn't making us safer if we are always in danger.

[alcuno]

28. Relax. He's got 7 months to get used to a President Kerry.

The thing about * is that there are more questions than answers. I try not to lecture people, although it's getting increasingly difficult. Instead I just say that I have questions about this administration. When they ask me what they are I try and limit them to three.

1. Why were members of the Bin Laden family secretly flown out of the US directly following 9/11? Why were they allowed to leave without interviews with the FBI?

2. Why won't the administration release information about Cheney's meetings with enery bigwigs in early 2001? What are they hiding from us?

3. No reasonable person believes that reducing taxes on dividends stimulates the economy so why do they keep saying that it was to stimulate jobs? Why don't they just come out and admit that they don't like this tax and that's why they reduced it. Why all the coy disguise? Why not just say that they think this is an unfair tax on the wealthy? Why not tell the truth?

[rocktop15]

32. Logical Thought from a Different Viewpoint

People sit here and bitch and moan about us killing women and children but that fact of the matter is those same whiny people piss and moan when we go into other countries like Samalia and Iraq for an example to stop it.

[w4rma]

33. Official reasons are not usually the real reasons with BushCo. (n/t)

[LeahMira]

34. Bottom line... voting is your duty.

he doesn't know what kind of job Kerry will do in office

Hopefully, over the next several months, Kerry will make his ideas crystal clear and we'll all have a good idea of how his presidency would work. Admittedly, with all the attention on nine candidates, then eight, then four, etc., a lot of people weren't sure just where Kerry stands. Perhaps you could direct your friend to Kerry's website? Project Vote Smart also gives some good information about how each Congressperson votes on the bills presented to them, although it doesn't say much about the particulars of each bill.

I asked him to name one good thing Bush has done while in office-----He said banning late term abortion and invading Afghanistan.

So he would prefer that a fetus with its brain developed outside its head be born? To what purpose? Or he would prefer a woman die in order to bring a child into the world?

There were other, I believe better ways of dealing with the situation in Afghanistan. In fact, the Taliban government offered to turn bin Laden over to an international body for trail. Whether they would have is an open question, but why did the U.S. feel that only the U.S. could deal with bin Laden appropriately? Certainly this was not the only nation that had been targeted by Al Qaeda. Plenty of others had their beef with bin Laden also... and could have seen justice done in their names. As it is, Al Qaeda is still kicking, and bin Laden is still out there somewhere.

To a certain extent, he doesn't think voting matters.

Well, to a certain extent, I tend to agree. My fear is that Bush will manipulate this election just as he did the last. Perhaps it won't happen in the same way because everyone is watching Florida, but I'm afraid it will happen in some way that no one is watching at the moment.

Also, with a Republican-dominated Congress, no matter who wins the Presidency, there won't be much change in the general direction we're headed. Will your friend vote for Democrats for Congress?

Still, I think voting is a duty, not a choice. You who are first-time voters need to feel responsibility for the country. For the fifteen minutes or so it takes to vote, you can make the effort.