Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Just saw "Fog of War".... recommended

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:05 PM
Original message
Just saw "Fog of War".... recommended
Really great. The parallels between Vietnam and Iraq are quite stunning..... the deceptions, the stupidity, the callousness (granted Vietnam was a bloodbath - 4 mil killed - compared to Iraq).

I guess all wars are similar in some fundamental ways. The phenomenon of otherwise rational people directing slaughter and destruction.

Funny how the mantra of "Communism" throughout the Vietnam era is eerily similar to the current mantra of "Terrorism".



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
GainesT1958 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Notice there were NO boos this year...
When "Fog of War's" director spoke about Iraq!:D

...Then again, there shouldn't have been any boos for Michael Moore LAST year, either! x(

B-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I saw it last night
I thought it was excellent.

Afterwards all I could do was sit quietly for a while.

I had forgotten what a lunatic Curtis LeMay was. Good thing he's not part of the regime today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. before you get all warm and fuzzy about McNamara, read this
from Daniel Ellsberg, someone who's agenda, unlike McNamara's is not hidden

Compare someone like Kerry to these high government officials from the Vietnam era, these secret doves like McNamara and Clark Clifford and Hubert Humphrey. Not one of them shared their real views, or their warnings, with the American public or Congress. None of them jeopardized their relationship with the president, none of them jeopardized their careers, their security clearances, their ability to come back in future administrations. None of them broke with the policy that they themselves thought was disastrous. None of them took steps to save any lives.

In contrast to that, these veterans like Kerry used their authority -- not the authority of high government clearances or Cabinet rank -- but the authority of having been shot at and suffered wounds in many cases for what they had been led to believe was in the interest of their country. These people came back and said, "We were misled, we were mistaken in what we did." They did not defend what they did in Vietnam, and as they told the public, much of what they did in Vietnam was very ugly. They saw crimes and they committed crimes -- war crimes. And these veterans, people like Kerry, came back and spoke the truth and did what they could to end the war. Which McNamara did not do -- and which none of these high government officials did.

Now McNamara is in a somewhat different category. Because I believe that at least he, unlike the others, was in a position to keep the country from greatly expanding the war -- which I believe would've cost even more loss of life and still no victory. The right wing says, "He kept us from winning." I don't think they know what they're talking about. So it may be that he did in fact save a lot of lives, even as he was pursuing a policy that cost a lot of lives. I'll be specific here. In his last year in office, 1967, I believe McNamara did act very creditably as an insider, to keep us from expanding the war into a possible war with China, by going into North Vietnam much more heavily.

But when he left office, the war had seven more years to go. He left in 1968, the war continued until 1975. And there were five more years of American ground combat left. Most of the bombs fell after he left, most of the Americans and Vietnamese died after he left. And he was totally silent. And he has no good excuse for that. He did not save any lives after he left office by telling us the truths about the war that he could have.


http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/19/ellsberg/index1.html

the article goes on to recount McNamara's recent/current cowardice in refusing to criticize the crimes being committed in our name

STRONGLY recommend this piece......as a matter of fact......

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. he may not be a saint
but I believe he has done something hardly ever done by anyone who has held a position such as his and that is admitted he was wrong even if it was many years latr. I suspect he keeps his opinions to himself since he went through much the same thing (although I think he got it tons worse) tht the people in power today are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 16th 2024, 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC