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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:12 AM
Original message
What Christ said about Homosexuality......
.....nothing. That's right, Christ said absolutely nothing about homosexuality. And many Christians, or those who purport to emulate Christ, are fooled into thinking that homosexuality is a biblical and religious abomination. Most Christians have never even read the bible. I have, and I'm not a believer, but I used to think I was.
But I've read the whole book, cover to cover, and it was most difficult for a teenager. But nowhere within it's covers did I see anything about gays getting married.

I do remember a passage about how men should no lie down with other men, but it sure wasn't Jesus who said it.

If you really want to inflame some of those hard core thumpers, you might ask them why Christ never took a wife? Or why he hung around with a bunch of guys all the time. I've even seen articles suggesting that Christ was gay, which were instantly shot down, like the rumors about Abe Lincoln being gay. I personally would not care either way what Christ's sexual preferences were, or what J. Edgar Hoover's were either.

There are some Christians who openly embrace their gay believers, they are liberal, open minded, progressive, and attempting to adapt the 2000 year old religion to the 2004 mentality. All through the history of Christianity, it has bended, and morphed and re-shaped itself to adapt to the currents of social change. The Christians took the winter celebrations and they became Christmas. They took the autumnal rites and called them All Saints Eve, or Halloween.
They took out the Wurlitzer organs and replaced them with guitars in the sixties, and they evolved, and grew to accept those who they once thought unsavable sinners.

If people really wanted to be like Christ, they'd accept gay marriage into their realm, after all, aren't all welcome? Would Jesus Christ have stood in the door to prevent homosexuals from entering, as bush is doing? Would Christ have refused to marry two men, or two women?
Would Christ ask us to stone gay people, or embrace them into the fold? I don't even have to answer that one. Of course he would.
He taught love, not divisiveness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. He actually was married
Mary Magdalen was his wife.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Mary Magdalen ?
I thought that James Carville was married to Mary Magdalen? Are you saying that Carville is Jesus Christ?
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Yes, notice that they have the same initials
J.C. - James Carvelle
J.C. - Jesus Christ

Interesting, huh??

The messiah is a democrat!!
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. Too funny!!!!! (eom)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Pay no attention to this Carville imposter
Jesus Christ, Christ y Christ!
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. that's debatable i suppose, as on this website
http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2...

but, like many biblical passages, it's vague and subject to debate.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. It's in question because of claims the bible was edited
and any evidence of this marriage was erased. This has become so lame and over used now but have you seen DaVinci's "Last Supper"?

I haven't really my hands dirty on this issue so I don't know how credible such claims are. Just imagine how angry Catholic priests would be if they found out this whole celibacy thing was based on a lie. hehehe
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itcfish Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. I Also
believe Jesus was married. A Jewish man was almost always married by the age of 24. It would not be allowed for women to follow men like Mary Magdalene did without being married. I also believe that James was his actual brother and that Mary and Joseph had more children.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yeah, His Mother Was Probably Nagging Him To Get Married
Virgin Mary: "Jesus, why can't you find a nice girl and settle down. When am I going to get Messiah grandchildren!"
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. Of course Mary and Joseph had more children..
She was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but thinking that a married couple never got down, well, that's just crazy. I also thought that John the Baptist was Jesus's brother? He had brothers and sisters.
Duckie
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. Most Excellent!
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 09:20 AM by ewagner
During the most turbulent times in the '60s there was a very popular t-shirt worn by a lot of people in the activist community. It had a picture of Jesus on it and below it was written something like this:

WANTED

For public disobedience. Known to associate with Prostitutes, Thieves and Homosexuals.


The message was very clear. The mission of Jesus was inclusive to bring people together in harmony.

Our exalted pResident is content to drive a wedge into society. Hardly the Christian message.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. Just answered this elsewhere
but fundies and evangelicals take his statement that He came not to change the old testement but to uphold it as His agreement that everything within was therefore correct.

So in Leviticus we find that men should not fool around with men (or rape angels). We also find that we shoudl be stoned to death for eating shellfish.

Have lots of links to books and websites about Liberal Christianity on my site, for those who are interested.
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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. stoned too for not keeping the Sabbath holy (no more
going to WalMart on the sabbath)
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. "The Sabbath was made for the Man, and not the Man for the Sabbath"
Not that Jesus would approve of Wal*MArt, but I do get stuck shopping there. And would you believe it is on the lot RIGHT next to my church, so of course we go on Sundays. *l*
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. That was a news flash for my GF's sister....
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 09:24 AM by BiggJawn
"Jesus was against homosexuality..."

"Oh, really? just exactly WHERE did he say that?"

"It's IN there!"

"No it's not, you're thinking about Leviticus, the same book that says you'll go to Hell for wearing cotton-poly and eating lobster and touching a woman while she's raggin' and besides, Jesus said 'I am come to REPLACE The Law' (meaning Leviticus, oft times referred to as 'The Law') and 'Unto you I give a NEW commandment, thet ye love one another'...'

"OK! OK! Where did you learn so damn much about the Bible anyway? I thought you were an Atheist..."

"You forget, I was a Christian before I was an Atheist. I READ the Book!"

Not sure I illuminated her mind, but I'll bet she put down her "left behind" books and went digging through the big book....
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Smirnoff Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Is that the only place it says anything about homosexuality?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. No, Paul addresses homosexuality in the Corinthians...
But there is also a fair amount of controversy surrounding Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, because of the context of the time in which he lived. It was common practice for Greek boys from lower social strata to be, effectively, sex slaves of upper class Greek men. It's also been debated that Paul was a guy who had some pretty serious sex hang-ups of his own, which might have contributed toward his condemnation of homosexuality.

I also have a hard time believing that a loving God would somehow be condemning of true love between people, no matter what form it came in.

In any event, I just try to focus on what Jesus said were the only two real commandments -- Love your God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So long as you do those two things, everything else will fall in line.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. My priest says that passage from Corinthians was likely
written by a follower of Paul of Tarsus.

Those letters of Paul contain some real discrepancies, to the liberal mind. How can you square the author of that wonderful chapter I
Corinthians 13 ("Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love. . .") with the dictum laid down above, or the equally bad one about "Let your women keep quiet. . ."?

Maybe it reflects the writing of two or more people. Or maybe some was written as a statement of general principles and the other, just to address situations in particular churches?

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tarheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Actually John,
I may be wrong, but it seems to me, that in the King James version anyway, Jesus' statement was that he came to "fulfill" the law" wasn't it.

I know it is kind of arguing semantics, but it seems to me that this statement could mean that God knew that no human would ever live up to standards set forth in the old Mosaic law, and therefore God had to find a way to reconcile his holy incompatability with sin, with the mortal earthly reality of humans being a flawed creation.

I think this is what Christ meant. He was God incarnate living as a human, and being exposed to all that meant, sin, temptation etc... and yet showing us that a perfect sin free existance is possible. All the while knowing that we would never attain it, so Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to reconcile God and Man.

This is how he "fullfilled" the old laws of Moses. I don't know, I may be completely off base here, but that just what I think sometimes.

:shrug:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Wow. Never saw it that way, exactly.
Thanks for a new thought to mull over. :)
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Do you mean the God of the Universe just sort of screwed up?
God Almighty, the All Powerful, All Knowing, Intelligent Beyond Our Wildest Imagination, THAT God, just kind of got it wrong in the OT?

Hmmmm....

You seem to be sincere. Therefore I extend to you this challenge. Actually READ the 1st 3 books of the OT, Genesis, Exodus & Levitticus. When you're done, ask yourself whether the God portrayed therein bears any resemblance to the God of the Universe.

What you'll find instead is the God portrayed there is devious, racist, conniving, blood thirsty, perverse and altogether revolting.

Does that mean THAT's how God really is? NO. It means that the OT is NOT the Word of God. Instead, it's a collection of primitive, mythical portrayals of tribal history written by extremely flawed, unenlightened human beings.

It is blasphemy, imo, to claim that the God of Creation, the God of indescribeable intelligence who made the universe of unfathomably beautiful, harmonious complexity that surrounds us, could have "written" such a preposterously lame, self-contradictory, convoluted, perverted series of stories as are in these books.

It is an indefensible piece of pious hoccum to claim the OT is "The Word of God."
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Or...
You could listen to the Gnostics (you know, original Christianity before Saul became Paul and started bastardizing it), who claimed that the God depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures was a lesser creator God (the Demiurge), and that Jesus was a shard of a transcendent ultimate Creator Diety.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Gnostics secret was Holy Spirit not co-equal as God the Father and the Son
Gnostic means secret knowledge

various groups had variations - but I thought the only universal thought was the lower place for the Holy Spirit.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. May I make a correction?
The Latin meaning for gnostic is 'to know'. There really is nothing secret about gnosticism. It is just that the majority of people either do not know about gnosticism or don't understand it. However, the knowledge is their for everyone to find.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. Um... not really
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tarheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Its like I said Merlin
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 10:42 AM by tarheel
I'm kind of confused on this part of it myself. I am a believer, but I have a hard time reconciling the fact that if we are creations of God, then God gave us our free will, and if God is all powerful and omnipotent, then he surely knew that we would defy his will and exercise that human nature.

Then he wants to punish us when we do it ? I have always had a problem with this aspect of it. I mean , if God wanted us to be automatons and simply obey his every wish, then why did he even give us free will ?

I think I understand that in order to truly share with someone you must be an equal with them, and God attempted to make a creation that was "in his image" therefore "godlike" in order to have something or someone that he could truly be a companion to and share his existence with.

It just rings sort of unseemly that if these were God's original altuistic intents, then why the vengeful attitude when we decide not to take advantage of his desire for communion with us. Is it pettiness
or spite ?

I don't know and I am probably being sacreligious and blasphemous for even thinking it, but these are the issues I have always wrestled with.

:(





(editted for spelling)




Also apologies to mopaul for geting off track with this discussion. It is not in keeping with the original query of the thread.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Maybe the source of your confusion
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 03:36 PM by DoYouEverWonder
is the belief that god is something outside of yourself?

If that's the case then you are like the majority of christians in the world. So why do most people believe that god is something that is outside/apart from them? Because from the beginning of human history, some humans realized they could control other humans by convincing them that in order to get to god, you had to go through them. Everyone from the Pope, Pat Robertson, to Paul of Tarsus wants you to believe that the only way you can find god is through them. That is how they yield power and control over other people. Once you wake up and realize that god is within, then these charlatans can have no power over you.



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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. amen
you preach, merlin!
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Yes, I see that. Could be. Yet....
...God's press agents still beat the masses over the head with Leviticus.

I'd have to go back and check on that "fulfilled" statement. It may be there, but I have heard it also preached as "replaced". that makes sense too, since if jesus 'replaces' the law, now we have to worry about displeasing Jesus instead of God.

Jesus died, the "debt" owed by Adam is payed, but still we're assailed with Levitical Hellfire and Brimstone. Why? Not sure, other than it's easier to control the masses and get them to turn loose of those "love gifts" if you have something to threaten them with.
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tarheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Oh I agree Jawn
the fundys still ike to beat the bible and point to Leviticus, but I think they miss the truth. That "all" sin is abhorrent to God and mankind in and of itself cannot bridge that gap.

That is the whole reason that Jesus had to make the blood sacrifice to reconcile God and Man, and all sin can be forgiven by God as a result.

Now the previous statement was predicated on the assumption that someone believes that homosexuality is a "sin". I don't won't to make that judgement myself as the bible clearly shows where Jesus stood on judging others. I will simply say that I don't have time to condemn
homosexuals, as I am too busy working on my own sins.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Sadly, I suspect she didn't; spoken as a Christian who knows the
Bible AND Jesus' teachings.

One can only hope that you are right, though.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. She'll think twice before laying Homophobia at Jesus' feet.
That's my sincere hope.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. yes you are right
but both you and i know there isn`t anyway to reason with people who believe all the "truth" have been written in the bible. it much easier to hide in words that were written thousands of years ago than to confront the world of today.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. However, there is much good in the book
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 09:24 AM by GreenPartyVoter
I find as much in it to support my own politics as the fundies and evangies do to support theirs. (see my site on that)
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. The passage I remember from the bible
was the scene where they are stoning a prostitute and Jesus stops them and says, "You who are without sin, cast the first stone".

Sometimes that Jesus dude is just way cool, you know?

Did Christ say anything about gays, abortion, or promiscuity?

I think not.

What Jesus was against was greed, hypocrisy, and abuse of the powerless.

Happy Ash Wednesday, you all.

I'll take a moment to reflect on what this great man actually said today.
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Search Party Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. there is another passage with chimp's name
written all over it....

"It is these worldly people, devoid of the spirit, who are causing divisions." Jude 1:19
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Welcome Ammpp. :) I also think of chimpy when I think of the Anti-Christ
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. MoPaul...
YOU'RE BACK!!!! Welcome back bro'!!! :bounce: :toast: :bounce:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
18. Amen, you are right on the mark. Once again, mo, glad you are back.
I'm about as strong an ally for gay marriage as a straight person can be. I'm also a Christian.

Jesus loves us all. Period. So does God.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
20. Ever been to a Baptist potluck?
People conveniently ignore these passages in the Bible whilst whipping out other ones to damn people with:

). First, repent for yielding to the temptation of lust for food.
> (Phil
> > 3:19, "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose
> glory
> > is in their shame, who mind earthly things".)
> >
> > (2). Then, submit to God and ask Him for the power to overcome
> gluttony
> > through His Holy Spirit and resist the devil through prayer and
> obedience
> to
> > God. (James 4 , "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the
> devil, and
> > he will flee from you".)
> >


> >
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".....or gay person?
that passage from the bible, 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live', was responsible for the holocaust of witchburning, in which about 10 million or so men, women, children, and not even counting the animals, were put to death. over a simple passage in the bible.

so it's very easy to whoop up a frenzy amongst true, right or wrong, believers.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. Good points MoPaul
And welcome back, good to see you around here again! :bounce: :bounce:

I have a question though, wanting to know if anybody else has info on this. Back in the late eighties-early ninties I heard from some news source that they had found directions for a gay wedding ceremony amongst the Dead Sea scroll or some other ancient Christian text. I heard it one time and then poof! it was down the memory hole. Has anyone else heard of this ceremony, or have a link to an article on it? If this is true, I think it would be fine information to disseminate far and wide.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
30. thanks mopaul
and to the many intelligent and thoughtful posts here --
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
35. Great articles on homosexuality and the Bible here
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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Yall are all so wise!
I am being enlightened and thank you all for it.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. MISSDem
If you haven't already, try to visit my site and check out the Christian links page. I have collected the links of websites written by wise people (aside from the great DUers participating in this thread) that should not be missed. :)
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
48. great post
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