Religious Wars -- Secular Wars -- Who Wins?

[seemslikeadream]

I would like a list of wars, religious - secular to see who really is to blame for war.

To start

Religious Wars
Muslim - non-Muslim

Roman Catholics vs. Muslim on Mindanao in the Philippines
Roman Catholics vs. Muslim on Timor in Indonesia
Confucians and Buddhists vs. Muslims in Singapore and Malaysia
Hindus vs. Muslims in Kashmir and intermittently within India itself
Russian Orthodox Catholics vs. Muslims in Afghanistan
Russian Orthodox Catholics vs. Muslims in Chechnya
Armenian Catholics vs. Muslims in Nagorno-Karabakh
Maronite and Melchite Catholics vs. Muslims in Lebanon
Jews vs. Muslims in Israel/Palestine
Animists and Christians of several denominations vs. Muslims in Sudan
Ethiopian Orthodox Catholics vs. Muslims in Eritrea
Anglicans and Roman Catholics vs. Muslims in Uganda
Greek Orthodox Catholics vs. Muslims in Cyprus
Serbian Orthodox Catholics vs. Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo
Roman Catholics vs. Muslims in Algeria
Anglicans and Roman Catholics vs. Muslims in Nigeria

[PVnRT]

1. Exactly what does it matter?

War is war, is it not?

And what exactly are you arguing? Should we outlaw religion so that we do away with war? If you think that will work you are sadly mistaken.

[seemslikeadream]

5. I just want the facts

I am asking a question because I would like to know who is responsible for war on this planet, the religous or secular. That's all. Why would you think I was advocating one over the other? War is war, you are correct but why is all I'm asking?

[PVnRT]

14. Why? Becuase humans are greedy and imperfect

And all too often they see the only way of satisfying their lust is to fight for whatever they want. Whether they say God is on our side, or we have to make the world safe from communism or terrorism, it's all the same.

[Az]

15. Humans are also social

That is we work together in groups to survive. We are naturally drawn together for our communal good.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. The arms industry wins every one. always.

And the energy industry, since so many modern weapons need petroleum-based fuel.

[Cat Atomic]

3. I think most "religious wars" are really secular wars. Religion is

used to sell the idea to the people fighting it. Why else would they get out there? It's hard to convince a man who's happily farming his land that it'd really be better to go die for some rich asshole's bank account.

[Sandpiper]

4. You hit the nail on the head

Religion is used to sell the idea to the people fighting it.

Religion is just a useful tool in creating the Us/Them mindset necessary to make war palatable to those who have no real interest in it.

[Az]

7. This seems a bit false to me

Or at least seeking an easy out. If it is easy to get people to go to war over belief then why would you say they do not go to war over belief.

Yes sometimes belief is used by those in power to justify their own desires. But sometimes it really is just a clash of beliefs.

[Sandpiper]

8. I'm not quite following your reasoning

please elaborate

[Az]

9. The argument seems to be

That wars are caused by individuals for their own reasons and make use of religion to create support for it.

This seems disengenous because it recognises that religion is an ideal carrier for conflict but then slides away by insisting that it is some nefarious individual promoting the conflict. If religion is capable of finding conflict then it is likely that it will do so.

At the heart of dogmatic religion is the notion that it has the truth. Anything that contradicts it is wrong. Anything that goes against it is a threat. It cannot be any more clear.

A dogmatic claim that does not have a means of defending itself is not long for this world.

[Cat Atomic]

11. I see what you're saying, and it's a good point. But,

I think there's a big difference between hostility and war.

I'd use this current Iraq occupation as an example. There were plenty of Americans who were very willing to wage a war on Islam, even before 9-11. But... they didn't control the government, and so these religious nuts couldn't just start a war.

Suddenly we got a group in power that had other reasons for wanting to invade Muslim territory. They wanted to control resources, they wanted to enrich their pals, whatever. They certainly didn't give a shit about waging war on Islam, and yet suddenly we started hearing all this talk about "islamists".

What I'm trying to say is that war is the act of a state. It requires massive logistical support. It's just not something a band of fanatics can do. Lone fanatics can certainly carry out hostile acts. They can fly airplanes into buildings, they can set off bombs, they can burn down houses or make raids, or whatever. But they can't wage war.

[Az]

12. The church used to be the state

This is why we have seperation of church and state now. Because history showed us that when the church held power the social oppression and strife were too great. Kings drew their validation from the church. They ruled at the churches pleasure. In fact England even went so far as to make its Liege the leader of its church.

These days churches in the west no longer wield the kind of power they once held. They still desire it but they have been held back by the people. In nations where the church still leads you will find oppression, conflict, and war.

[Az]

6. Not all religious views lead to conflict

We cannot weather a Jihad against religion. Instead we have to recognise the dangers that religion can pose when fanned to its extremes. We need to maintain a society that can have freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

It is when the structures around religion begin to believe they can impose their view on others that things go wrong. This is the very reason for seperation of church and state. We need liberal theists and atheists together to fight against the right.

It is not the belief itself that leads to war. It is the structures around it that may do so.

Look people. This is perhaps the most difficult subject we face on this planet. It is a mine field of problems. We have to deal with it. We have to deal with it now. Never before have we had the destructive capability we have now. I don't care if it is a zealous atheist pushing the button or a theist. We have to find way to put before the people that theirs is not the only view and that they cannot impose theirs on the world.

People forget that the reason the other side does the things it does is because it believes it is the right thing to do. Atheists complain about beliefs because we are pained by what we see as delusional beliefs. We do not assail your beliefs because we like kicking you around. We do so because we feel you are beholden to a lie and this pains us. Likewise theists do not assail atheists because they enjoy moralizing to us. They do so out of concern for what they believe to be a very real soul. We each want the best for the other. The problem comes in determining what the best is.

The issue is exasterbated by those that do not recognise the barriers our society requires to survive. When a belief system enters the equation that specifcally cannot abide this neutrality the peace is shattered. The religious right represents this break down of the social contract. They have decided that they are right. They are going to fight for what they believe is good. They do not share our values of tolerance and diversity of beliefs.

It is the rise of these groups that raises the ire of the nontheists. Combine this with the history of conflict involving religious belief and the reason for the outcries becomes a bit easier to understand. A belief system that some how managed to justify the torture of people that did not comply(inquisition) is a worrisome thing.

[seemslikeadream]

10. To continue the list

Religious Wars Since World War II

Afghanistan (extreme radical fundamentalist Muslims vs. other muslim groups and non-muslims: goals to promote a worldwide war between Muslims and non-muslims.

Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, and Muslims: fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers

Cote d'Iviore (Muslims, indigenous, Christians): Following elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming maiority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants."

Cygrus (Christians and Muslims): When this Roman Catholic country was forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim), about 20% of the populace died by murder, starvation, or disease. After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias. The situation is now stable.

India (Animists, Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs): Half a century of conflicts are too numerous to list. In February 2002, a Muslim-Hindu conflict broke out, killing an average of 100 people a day over the first five days.

Indonesia (Christian and Muslims): In Ambon province, after centuries of relative peace, conflicts stated in 1999. The situation now appears to be stable. In Hallmaheera province, 30 Muslims were killed. Two-thousand Christians drove them from their homes and destroyed their churches.

Kashmir (Hindus and Muslims): In this chronically unstable region of the world claimed by both Pakistan and India, 60,000 people have died since 1989. The availabilty of nuclear weapons is destagilizing the region further.

Kosovo (Orthodox Christians and Muslims): Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by officials of the Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim).

Kurdistan (Christian, Muslims): Assaults on Christians. Bombing campaign underway.

Macedonia ( Orthodox Christians and Muslims, often referred to as ethnic Albanians): Muslims engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country, primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.

Middle East (Jews, Muslims, Christians): With the assassination by his own people of Prime Minister and peacekeeper Itzak Rabin, the nearly complete (only the question of Jerusalem was not settled) process of establishing peace between Israel and Palestine deterioriated under Netanyahu and Sharon completely broke down, resulting in the deaths of more than 800 Palestinians, and about 200 Jews so far this year.

Nigeria (Christians, Animists, and Muslims): Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships.

Norther Ireland (Protestants, Catholics): After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, progress has been made recently in the form of a ceasefire and independent status for the country. Pakistan (Suni and Shi'ite Muslims): Low level mutual attacks.

Phillippines (Christians and Muslims): Low-level, centuries old conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the southern islands.

Russia, Chechnya (Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims): The Russian army attacked rebel militants in the breakaway region after Muslims allegedly blew up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides, and recently conmfirmed: 800 hostages taken in a Moscow theatre.

Serbia, province of Vojvodina (Serbian Orthodox and Roman Catholics): Serb ethnic-cleaning programs have "encouraged" 50,000 ethnic Hungarians (almost all Roman Catholics) to leave this province of Yugoslavia.

South Africa (Animists and "Witches"): Hundreds of people accused of black magic are murdered yearly.

Sri Lanka (Buddhists and Hindus): Since 1983 the Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18 % minority ) have been involved in a war for independence with the rest of the country (70 % Buddhist). An estimated 65,000 has been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in Sept 2002 when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence.

Sudan (Animists, Christian and Muslims): Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict victimizes both Animists and Christian in the south. Slavery is common, and there are alleggations of crucifixion of Christians.

Tibet (Buddhists and Communists): Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's Brutal suppression of religion continues.

Uganda (Animists, Christians and Muslims): Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and or raped.

http://www3.hpu.edu/kalamalama/archive/2612/sub/Opinion02.htm

[camero]

13. Wars need to be financed

And the oligarchy does the financing on both sides.