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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 07:57 AM
Original message
Bush spin on National Guard service on CSPAN now
CSPAN's Washington Journal has Col William Campenni (Ret.) Air National Guard 1965-1998 on now as the spinmeister on Bush's Guard service. He's folksy and well-spoken. But his spiel is that the Viet Nam era Guard is the same as the Guard soldiers now in Iraq. He's trying to glide over the huge lapses in service and the low numbers of Viet Nam era Guardsmen who were sent into combat. His contention is that the Guard was not a way to avoid Viet Nam. Callers are either disagreeing with his assertions or praising Bush as a godly man. ( Campenni's full letter in Washington Times). He's a defense consultant from Virginia.
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. powell quote on Nat'l Guard during vietnam
someone HAS to throw that out into the mainstream! The quote, on a number of threads here at DU, from Powell's book, where he says the National Guard allowed the wealthy and elite to avoid service during Vietnam, while poor and middle class kids with no connections were sent off to die.

Also, the National Guard during Vietnam was not the same as it is now. There was a DRAFT at the time. The military could get all the manpower it needed that way and didn't have to rely on the NG...

what f***ing liars!!!
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Colin Powell on Natl Guard during Vietnam
I only caught a little piece of it. It sounded like he had nothing to say about the period of time in question, 1972-73. If that's so, then I don't see what relevance this guy has. The earlier period isn't even in question.

It seems he's just trying to defend serving in the ANG, which I don't think Democrats are even trying to disparage. Of course, he used political connections to get a cushy spot that would keep him out of danger. I saw a spot on TV last night where they showed an excerpt from Colin Powell's autobiography where he slams the National Guard during the Vietnam period as a haven for war-dodging rich kids. Anybody have a snip of that?
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. ANG
This time frame should be in question as at that period in the war in Nam no billets were available in the Guard(air or ground) holly christ they were drafting Marines at this time every 7th draftee went to the lean green killing machine.
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. You're right about the Marines
I work with a Viet Nam vet, a Marine, with two purple hearts. No "tip of the sword" for the Marines during Viet Nam. They went. They stayed. He was wounded, patched up, and sent back "in country". A caller brought up a very good point: Where is GWB's "band of brothers"? Kerry has a group of vets who served with him who campaign with him, speaking of shared combat experiences. Where is Bush's "band" from his training? Or, if asking for a "band" is too much, where is Bush's "pal"? My son, who completed his first year as a Marine this past January, has photos and letters from his growing "band" from boot camp through infantry training, to his current duty in The Philippines. My father has WWII photos and letters and stays in touch with his army buddies. Was GWB that unfriendly and unpopular? Or were there no cameras around during the late '60's and early '70's?
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Yes, it's the same tactic
liberals are bashing the Guard, many of whom are now serving in Iraq. Just as unpatriotic liberals were not supporting our troops by opposing the war. It's the blanket which is supposed to cover over the real issue: Bush's exaggeration of his military experience and his eagerness to display other's accomplishments as his own. The man had nothing to add. It was pure P.R. He's trying to make the National Guard the focus. Not Bush. Keep punching holes, people. Good work.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. This Schmuck and the Kerry propaganda won't fly!
Give me a fucking break, 'eh? Who can't see through this dog shit?
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. "Who can't see through this dog shit?"
Bush* butt-kissers!
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you for following this.
Had a problem with the cable this morning. C-SPAN in particular. The channel was blacked out. Everything else was working, but C-SPAN 1 & 2 weren't. Very weird.

Just got off of the phone with the cable company, and it's fixed now, but missed the program.

Knew I could count on a fellow DUer to catch it and post.

No surprise to find the thread here, but Much appreciation for it.

Thanks :hi:
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Soup, where are you?
My C-Span 1 never seems to work ok. Palm Beach County (go figure!).
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Other side of the state here.
:hi:

Turned out it was only the box in the computer room, since they had me check the one in the living room to see if it was working. It was. So my :tinfoilhat: went as quickly as it appeared. Upsetting, though.

I'm so suspicious anymore, when the woman told me they hadn't received any other calls from our area, didn't know whether to believe her or not.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Hi Vickers!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. Sheesh, of course Campenni's going to say that
He used the NG himself to escape Viet Nam no doubt. :eyes:
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. He's a lying sack of feces. . . .
Hell, just his lying letter where he said the ANG didn't start doing drug testing until the 1980s proves that.

The drug testing policy was instituted in 1972 and was an annual requirement for all pilots.

The guy is as full of fecal matter as a backed up septic tank.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's The Service, Not The Guard...Stupid
I keep saying it...gotta put things back in focus..."Where Was George????".

This isn't about what the NG was about in Vietnam...that's history, and not the issue. It's did * fulfill his military committment. It's the integrity of this manchild to play Commander In Chief, putting the lives of our young men and women at danger while he wouldn't do so himself. It's pointing out his do as I say, not as I do attitude and his arrogance in walking away...willingly, knowingly!

RoveCo is desperate to avoid this issue at all costs since it's implications could pull the whole house of cards down. Hopefully there are those in the media who want the answer and won't stop til they get it. There's the definite smell of blood in the water now.

This letter means ZERO since we're still waiting for someone who saw bunnypants in a military uniform on an Alabama military base (I'll take even skivvies) in 1972-73. We don't question his Champagne brigade days...swilling long, tall cool ones (the social life Mr. Campenni's carefully avoided), it's afterwards. And notice no contact with his former "army bud" afterwards. My father kept close contacts with his WWII army buddies til they all moved to the great canteen in the sky.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. sent e-mail to c-span
I am so angry and frustrated tears are running down my cheeks.
I tried to get in on the Campenni segment this morning, but could not.
I am 62 years old. I was a pilot in the Alabama Air National Guard from 1963 until 1971.

About Mr. Campenni, here's the lead paragraph from a letter to the editor he recently wrote:
While our wonderful freedoms, won and protected by the military that liberals (a.k.a. Democrats) like your respondent Tom Hutchins (The Observer May 9) abhor, allow him to spew his hate-filled opinions against George Bush, they do not allow him to deceive your readers with a blatant misstatement of the facts (a.k.a. lies).
William Campenni
Herndon
http://archive.observernews.com/stories/archives/viewpoints/2003view/051603/16letr7.shtml


So, we see where Mr. Campenni is coming from.
I agree with him about the "sea of ignorance" concerning the guard.
Here's what I know:
If I remember correctly, my Air National Guard paychecks came from the U.S. Treasury Department. We were paid quarterly. On the first month of a new quarter, we were paid for the previous quarter.

The Guard doesn't pay you if you aren't there to answer "present".
It should be a simple matter to see how much income Bush received from the Department of Treasury each year of his Guard obligation from his income tax records:
Total annual income from Air national Guard (Treasury), divided by daily pay rate for a 1st Lt. on flying status (base pay + flight pay), equals number of days served.
May have to be adjusted for time spent on non-flying status (which should NOT have happened, see 2 below).

You can do the math on how much he SHOULD have received, had he been present each time he should have been.
12 monthly drill week-ends a year
(1 day's pay for each 4 hour period) = 48 days pay
12 REQUIRED Flying Training Periods
(FTPs) per quarter X 4 quarters = 48 days pay
2 weeks Annual Summer Encampment = 14 days pay
110 days pay annually

Anything less for the six year obligation following completion of pilot training indicates no-show.

Three more points:

1. It's highly unusual that Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. If you kept
your nose relatively clean, you made 1st Lt. 3 years after your commission
as a 2nd Lt. Two years later, you made Captain. As long as you just put
your time in, it was automatic. That he didn't make Captain prior to his
discharge is very telling. Reason: He wasn't there long enough, not enough time-in-grade.

2.a. Failure to pass your annual flight physical is one thing.
Failure to show up for it is another thing entirely. It results in automatic grounding
and is a violation of Air Force and ANG regs. Refusal is subject to disciplinary action,
including court martial.
2.b. ONLY a certified Air Force Flight Surgeon may administer a pilot's flight
physical. Not your "personal physician back in Houston", and not even the Mayo Clinic.
Not anybody who isn't a certified flight surgeon. They were available in Birmingham,
Huntsville, Montgomery, Selma, and Mobile.


3. An Honorable Discharge is NOT "evidence" that he served his time. This
is just the butt-covering "talking point" used by him and his supporters.
It IS evidence that his commanding officers violated ANG rules and
regulations. It's called "covering one's derriere". Had they NOT given him
an honorable discharge it would have called attention to the fact that they
gave him a pass on his absences and pointed up a serious, punishable
dereliction of duty on their part.


NOW...you may think I've got some kind of burr under my saddle about
this AWOL thing. You'd be right.

Massey Lambard
Foley, Alabama
former Captain/pilot, 1963-1971
RF-84/F
106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron
117th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing
Alabama Air National Guard
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Excellent post Trof, just excellent.
Sending wine and caviar, smoked salmon and ribs.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Did you review bush payroll records??
can anybody make heads or tails from the released documents??

You seem to have a firm control over how points were scored.. If I recall, bush only scored 15 points from May 72 to May 73.. What does that mean??
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Just out of curiosity is Captain the end of the automatic promotion line
You said three years time and grade and you made 1st Lt, two more years and it's Captain unless you've done something wrong. What does it take to make Major? Is there any sort of Schooling requirement or testing? Does one need to see some combat?
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I heard Greg Palast say Smirky was given the fastest
promotion in the history of the United States military. Now how could that be for someone who scored 25 on exam, has zero qualifying entrance experience, missed medical exams, was grounded and disappeared for months?

This entire story reeks.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. "Automatic" promotions during the Vietnam era ...
... varied according to the branch of service and the assignments. IIRC, approximately 50% of (non-West Point) Army officers were O-3 (Captain) at the end of their first 'hitch' which would include a 6+6-month tour in Vietnam. It was somewhat faster for the combat arms (Infantry, Armor, Artillery, etc.). This included ROTC and OCS officers, not mustangs and not USMA grads. (Virtually 100% of West Point grads would be O-3 at the end of their first 4-year hitch.) O-4 (Major) was virtually 'automatic' by the end of the 2nd hitch (about 8 years of service). O-5 was not 'automatic.' If, by the end of a 3rd hitch (about 12 years), an officer wasn't already promoted to O-5 then the "up-or-out" handwriting was on the wall.

O-4 (Major) is the last 'automatic' promotion, even though there was a well-known (southern states) custom of promoting a 20-year retiree to O-5 (LtCol) prior to his retirement. (Yes, the military had a certain regional bias.)

National Guard officers followed a similar pattern, except that a 'hitch' was 6 years and pilots were virtually 100% asssured of O-3 by the end of that 1st hitch. Why? The military is the primary source of commercial airline pilots. Pilot retention has always been a problem. Thus, pilots were promoted on a 'fast track' -- typically at the minimum time-in-grade guidelines. It's remarkable (to say the very least) that Junior was discharged as an O-2, particularly since his political connections got him a fast-track promotion to O-2 in the first place.


Just as a backgrounder, enlisted promotions also followed a pattern. Promotions in Vietnam were faster than elsewhere, since time-in-grade guidelines were easily and regularly waived in a combat zone, for the "needs of the service". I was somewhat atypical. After only 16 months in the service, I had been promoted to E-5 (SP/5). That was fairly unusual for a REMF and draftee -- particularly one who didn't qualify for a GCM. :evilgrin:
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SerpentX Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Saw him last night on freshly-minted punditwhore Deborah Norville's show
Edited on Fri Feb-13-04 01:10 PM by SerpentX
He's an ass. This isn't spin, it's a disinformation campaign. Campenni said the 147th could have been called up at any time as if they were constant peril of being shipped over. That's Bull! Dumbellya was assigned to the 147th in December of 1969. Earlier that year, the unit had finished a two year tour in Vietnam and returned to Texas. The chances of them being sent back would have been pretty slim anyways, but when the unit was re-designated the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group (Training), those chances dropped to near zero. According to this source:

With the continued draw-down of air defense units in the United States, the 147th FIG came off runway alert on Jan. 1, 1970 to start a new mission: training all F-102 pilots in the United States for the Air National Guard.


Kiss my butt, Campenni. You weren't going anywhere.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Hi SerpentX!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. About 9000 NG served in Vietnam
I do not know if that was voluntary. I don't know how that works out %-wise.

I also saw that there were 23 killed.

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