To all our repub lurkers out there

[manchu]

We need your help. If you are a true conservative then you should be appalled at the current activities of President Bush. The fiscal irresponsibility, the shadowy/secret government, the intelligence failures that Bush refuses to accept responsibility on, the raising body count of our fellow countrymen in Iraq etc. Many democrats that are unfairly labeled as "tax and spend "liberals are in fact fiscal conservatives who abhor reckless spending as much as you do.

I like a strong military, hell I'm in the Army so I certainly would like to have the best equipment. I have many friends in the Army who are republicans and most have admitted that they have reservations about Bush. If you think that good foreign policy is based on who can drop the biggest daisy cutter or bunker buster then I guess you'll vote for Bush. If you like the fact that spending is out of control and that hes already spent more than Clinton, then hes your man, if the thought of Halliburton price gouging and getting paid millions if not billions (and Halliburton didnt lose the contract by the way) while soldiers are complaining of not having adequate body armor and their benefits getting cut appeal to you then vote for Bush.

If you are pro american then you must certainly question Bush's anti american stance on many issues, such as cutting back programs aimed at helping fellow Americans who are in poverty or struggling to stay afloat and then giving millions to countries like Poland, Israel, Spain and others who just happened to be in the coalition of the willing. Most of all I dont believe that an American soldier's life is worth less than that of an Iraqi, I'm sympathetic to their plight and I'm glad that Saddam isnt in control anymore but I'll choose a soldiers life over an Iraqis life anyday. Bush and the neocons who are slowly taking over your party could care less about that issue because no one in their family are out there dodging bullets. I suggest we worry about saving the republic first by getting these neocons out of office first, then we can squabble over party issues. Just my two cents.

[BOSSHOG]

1. And a true conservative

would not tolerate a member of the armed forces absenting himself without leave. And a true conservative would not tolerate a businessman profiting from insider information as bush did while he was at Harken. And, as we found out in the 90's, true conservatives don't tolerate a President who lies.

I guess there aren't too many true conservatives left in this country anymore. They have all morphed into dupes, rubes and dumbasses; mindless drones doing and voting as they are told.

[Kolesar]

2. Manchu was trying to keep this sweet and positive

[manchu]

3. heh

i was but everyones entitiled to chime in.

[BOSSHOG]

4. I have a hard time being sweet and positive when I think of

anything or anyone conservative.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. Same here!

:shrug:

[onecitizen]

5. These people aren't conservative.......

they are evil people who worship money,not God. This cluster of people who occupy the WH are not true Conservatives at all. They have hijacked the Conservative Party for their own gains. Conservatives should be outraged at the image they are projecting to the world.

[forgethell]

6. This is a straw man argument

You define what a 'true' conservative should think, and then tell them that by supporting * they cannot be 'true' conservatives. but they define what they are, just as we do. For instance, the 'fiscal irresponsibility'. If it is true, as has been reported, that many conservatives are unhappy with *'s spending, isn't it likely that they would be more supportive of cutting social services instead of money for the Iraq war or the defense establishment? Is it likely that, if they felt Saddam should have been removed, they will quibble about the intelligence failures that caused * to select a mistake rationale for going to war. Especially when they can point out that our intelligence capabilities have been deteriorating for many years?

Most importantaly, is it likely that because * carries out their agenda imperfectly, they will be willing to vote for someone who is utterly opposed to it? I don't think so. Where are they going to go? True, there may be some Buchananites who will vote, but my guess is that most will place their nostrils firmly between their thumb and fore-finger and swing on the elephant's tail in the voting booth.

I'm not opposed to the concept of getting some R's to vote for our man. I just think the way to do it is to convince them through superior facts and logic that our position is correct. i don't really think it can be done by pointig out their man isn't in perfect accord with their professed principles. This would set my back up if they did it to me, and I don't know why it wouldn't do the same for them.

[Trajan]

15. WHO the hell CARES if it's a Strawman ? ....

Not every logical fallacy is bad ...

The general thrust of these assertions is that the present administration does NOT represent what are believed to be 'typical' conservative values .... And that point is well taken ...

It's an appeal to common sense ....

[asthmaticeog]

20. Gotta disagree with you there

Every logical fallacy IS bad. The rules of logic and epistemology weren't just written down by a bunch of guys sitting around making them up, they emerged after centuries of studying how truth works, how argument works, what arguments don't work and why, and how language can be used to help us arrive at facts. Disregarding the flaws in an argument just because its outcome supports your beliefs is the most greivous transgression one can commit against our naturally built-in truth-gathering apparatus.

The original post is also guilty of blatant question-begging, by the way. By taking it upon himself (herself?) to define a "true" conservative in a way that supports his thesis, it's the same as presuming the truth of what you're supposed to be trying to prove. That's a big no-no.

[manchu]

21. well i define true conservatives

by the conservatives that I have met. The conservatives I know arent for big goverment, a secret government and out of control spending. There are many things we dont agree on but the ones I have met have for the most part all agree on those issues. Oh yeah thats "himself" :)

[asthmaticeog]

25. That's fair

I didn't mean to come off as so strident, BTW. Trajan blowing off the rules of argument so casually just kind of burned my ass - those rules are critically important to the functioning of discourse, and I take them seriously. I realize you weren't trying to construct an airtight academic argument, it's just that the question-begging example was there and I wanted to underscore my point, so I used it. No hard feelings, I hope.

Off Topic: 100TH POST!

[manchu]

27. nah its all good

congrats on your 100th post!!

[forgethell]

31. I think that in general you are right

but conservatives seem to be much more flexible than we are on ideological purity. I have never seen the type of in-fighting on the conservative boards that I have seen on DU. And don't flame me, of course I lurk on conservative boards. How else to know what they think?

[Trajan]

24. Malarkey

George Bush is a fucking asshole ...

Ad hominem, abusive ...

And absolutely true ...

[KayLaw]

7. My message

I just hope that when people vote, they remember that the Bush administration did misrepresent the facts leading to the attack on Iraq and have made clear they favor preemptive war.

Also, the members who signed the PNAC foresee endless war.

Do you really want your children and grandchildren fighting these unnecessary wars, coming home permanently changed, maybe disabled, maybe not at all?

[rumguy]

8. great post...

conservatives need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and stop listening to the Bushbots...

[leftyandproud]

9. trust me...

the REAL conservatives are pissed at Bush...

I forsee a mass exodus of formerly loyal Republicans this year.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Bush get 10% FEWER votes than he did last time...not because the pubs vote democrat, but because they just don't vote out of apathy and disgust for what Bush is doing to the country. I have spoken to conservatives in my family and at work about this...They absolutely hate the spending Bush is doing. They believe he is a socialist with a hawkish foreign policy...They don't mind taking out Saddam, but they hate his actions on virtually every other issue...so they won't be supporting him again. This is great news for us.

[alfredo]

17. I am seeing the same thing in my veteran mailing list.

They are all old spooks, so they may be a bit more unhappy over bush blaming the intelligence community.

[manchu]

32. we hope

[x-g.o.p.er]

10. Put aside labels like conservative or liberal...

And think of yourself as "American" first. If people did that, a lot of scales would fall from people's eyes. Look, I was a lifelong Republican until a few months ago. I posted my tome yesterday; and to all of my fellow DU'ers who responded, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I was so humbled.

Anyhow, I don't see how a rational, free-thinking individual--American-- can look at what is going on and think it is the right direction for the country. True Americans should be outraged at what is going on.

Name-calling and labeling people will only cause them to retreat into what they have known or perceived their whole lives. Rational, cogent, and respectful debate will bring people around. Most conservatives, at the end of the day, desire what is best for their country, not what is best for them. That is also true for most liberals, too, I might add. As the truth slowly makes it way out of the mass-media spin machine, people are atarting to become aware of what has happened, what is currently happening, and what could happen if Bush is re-elected to a second term. Many will do their part to keep that from happening. I will actively campaign for the democratic nominee, whoever that may be.

And I will happily eat a plate of crow in front of my entire family.

For the good of the republic, ABB in '04!!

[Bandit]

12. If only other "Americans" had your true feelings of "Patriotism"

What a wonderful country we could become.

[onethatcares]

28. we do

but we've let the powers drive a wedge tween us all. Time to talk to that black or white person, that puerto rican, time to shake a hand and realize we are all on the same boat. If it sinks, we all drown. We're all the same, we want our kids to be and do better than we have, these scam artists have tried to take it away, the dream of America. The Dream survives in reality one person at a time.

[Hamlette]

13. what a great post!

thanks x-gop.er. Keep on message, don't call people names. Keep saying "no weapons of mass destruction." We also need to make it personal. I remember when Reagan took office the national debt was $7,000 for every man woman and child in the US. When he left office it was $21,000 for each of us. (Don't know the numbers between Jan 2001 and now, might not be as dramatic.) Also, remind people that 20 cents of EVERY DOLLAR they pay in taxes to the fed government goes to pay INTEREST on the national debt. If we could eliminate the debt their taxes would go down by 20% with NO LOSS OF SERVICES.

And the environment? Sheesh, there have to be great talking points there too, just don't now 'em.

I'd also like to change the "government is evil" perception. We need to remind people that ONLY a strong government can protect their retirement accounts from the likes of Enron.

[manchu]

14. agree wholeheartedly

We're Americans first, dem and repubs second.

[Trajan]

16. I had to break the flag out ....

and wave it a little: ... Your post just made my day ....

Your a real patriot x ....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Excellent post. Likewise, ABB in 2004.

[calimary]

34. I KNEW they'd love you here, x-g.o.p.er!

For a lot of good reasons, too.

We have one point of disagreement here, though. It will NOT be you eating that plate of crow...

[never cry wolf]

39. Great post x-g.o.p.er

I saw your "tome" yesterday but was at work and had no time to greet you properly. You are absolutely correct in this post, we are ALL americans, and citizens of this planet, first and foremost.

I heartily thank you for your service and just as heartily welcome you to DU, you have already made some outstanding contributions!!

:yourock:

[proud patriot]

18. True Conservatives want to preserve The U.S. Constitution

not gut like the neo-cons are doing .

also We all agree on the FCC rules , that's another thing that
unites us .

[JohnOneillsMemory]

33. Our military takes an oath to defend the Constitution. Let them.

Imagine thousands of rotated home soldiers going to the White House to demand impeachment of the un-Constitutional usurper who stole our government, damaged national security, killed and wounded thousands of our troops, emptied the treasury into the pockets of corporate pirates...

Imagine President Gore then giving the oath of office in 1/05 to the next democratically elected president of these United States.

Yes, I too have a dream.

[Old and In the Way]

19. If Bush had been honest in his campaign as to what his plans were,

would he have lost by only 500,000 votes?

[KG]

23. try getting democrats to vote for the dem candidate this time

nah, makes too much sense.... :eyes:

[Zhade]

26. You've got the right idea. We MUST reach out to conservatives.

Please note that I did not say rightwingers. Conservatives are a different breed. I know - one of my best friends is conservative, and she is completely against the traitors in the White House.

The elite and the compliant corporate media have divided us so well that we often forget that good, honest conservatives who love the Constitution are out there. We must accept this fact, and work for common ground, to defeat the elite.

Hey, that's my new slogan - Defeat The Elite!

[kaitykaity]

29. One of my best friends is also a real conservative,

and she invaded my house this morning angry as hell, ranting about the increase in the NEA budget, the immigration policy, the outsourcing of jobs, the whole thing. "These people are conservative", she said with a sneer on her face.

Her husband is an IT professional, and he's been out of work for over two years. She said, "since the Bush administration decided to help terminate my husband's career track, I've decided to help terminate the Bush administration."

I asked her if she would vote for Kerry, and she came back with "I'll vote for any of them!"

So she's now ABB, and it made my whole year.

[MissMarple]

30. Today's Right has nothing to do with conservatism.

American conservatism is within the liberal tradition of Locke, Paine, Burke, etc. The Constitution was inspired by Enlightenment thinkers and if you support the Constitution you are, whether "conservative" or "liberal" in the Liberal tradition. You believe in the power of the individual over the power of the state, in less rather than more government intrusion, and in a government that promotes the general good. The neo cons that provide the intellectual or propaganda arm of the Right were once Communists or radical socialists. Irving Krystal, Norman Poderetz et al and their mini con offspring have gone from advocating a radical left ideology to advocating a radical right ideology. Their primary target in both cases is Liberal democratic republicanism. They hate both liberals and conservatives in the Liberal tradition.

Sadly they have no intellectual integrity. How long they can continue to hoodwink a large number of the relatively naive electorate, I have no clue. But it is past time to end this.

A great read on this is in "Up From Conservatism" by Michael Lind. As I read it, I am dismayed at how cynical and evil these people really are. I think one thing they have remained constant with is a strong belief in Machiavellian control of government.

[Viking4225]

35. Firat Entry!!!

Hi everyone, I'm brand spanking new!! After reading this post after monitoring for a while I thought I would give it try!! I really believe that the only way we can get America back is to get to the special interests on BOTH sides. I am wondering what the consensus is out there? Does anyone agree that we have too many special interests on BOTH sides? I look forward to your input.

[calimary]

37. Oooooh, I love new babies! Welcome!

You have a legitimate point. Frankly, I fear that any time somebody on either side of the aisle says the buzzphrase "special interests," it is automatically implied that these are people on the left - them dang tree-huggers and stuff.

Yes, I'll totally admit we liberals and Dems have special interests. But I tend to believe that OUR special interests are more slanted toward the well-being of the "little guy," while the special interests of the corporatists are their own brothers and sisters in big industry. It's a case of - do we want to help level the playing field so everybody has a chance at a fair shake, or do we want to stack the deck, or keep it stacked, so that those who already have much don't have to share.

I think the real heart of the matter is how to balance things. For example, YES we need to respect and protect endangered species. But, we also need to keep in mind what impact that respect and protection might have on the jobs of the other "little guys" who work for the bigger corporate interests. THEY have to be looked after, too. Unfortunately, they can easily get the impression that they're not regarded as having as much value as the spotted owl. A MIDDLE GROUND MUST BE FOUND. Because I want very badly to protec the spotted owl and other such species. But I also want to make sure people either aren't thrown out of jobs as a result, or have a nice, soft comfy landing - and/or other job alternatives, if that's what happens. Because I, too, know what it's like to have a family to support. That transcends liberal and conservative and all other labels.

[Viking4225]

36. First Entry!!!

Sorry, it should have been First Entry, I guess I'm a little nervous!

[ConsAreLiars]

38. you can edit typos even after posting

The DU forum software is very nice. (There is an an edit button available in the lower right of your messages as you read them, good for 30 minutes. As you use it more you will discover more useful features, including a spellcheck option.

And welcome to DU - and no need to be nervous, the moderators do a decent job of maintaining a civil atmosphere and the democratic ideology is rather people-friendly anyway.

[never cry wolf]

40. Don't be nervous

We are all friendly here, well, most of us anyway.

Welcome to DU, Viking!! :hi: