Please, tell me why I should oppose tax cuts?

[...Alltogethernow]

... I'm trying to raise a family, and I don't necessarily want any more of my hard earned money going places I have very little control over. That money makes the difference in my household (not sure about yours)

... Not trying to draw fire, just an honest question.

... Thank you

[Goldom]

1. because

of the tax cuts, almost none goes to you. most of it is for the richest people/corporations in the country. whereas, otherwords, more of the rich's money could be used by the gov't to support the real american people such as yourself.

rather simplistic response, but im sure you'll get a few extremely long ones momentarily :)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

2. Because the tax cuts benefit the wealthy

and take away money from the working folks, federal programs and education.

Did you receive a giant tax cut? Or a measly few hundred dollars? So far the two tax cuts have saved the wealthy BILLIONS while bankrupting important programs that serve the majority of Americans.

[smiley_glad_hands]

3. if you make over $200,000/year

then you are one greedy bastard to worrying about tax cuts. Listen up all you conservative freeper pricks out there: Altruism is not a predominant human characteristic------------GREED IS. Damn freeping jackasses.

[carpetbagger]

4. Because your kids get to pay the debt back w/ interest.

Sure, I get my 600 bucks or whatever it is, but my family's share of this year's defecit (figuring 500B/250M=2K per head) is $8,000.

EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS!

George Bush is one hell of a loan shark.

[never cry wolf]

5. Because you may have noticed that your state and local taxes

Have gone up to pay for all the local funding the feds took away. Probably as much or more than what you got back from the G. As a family man I am sure you want good schools, fire department and police. The funding for all of these has been cut due to the tax cut, the HUGE bulk of which went to the richest 2%, not to you or your schools.

[truthspeaker]

125. What he said ^^^^

Headline from this morning's newspaper:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/4330261.html">Minneapolis may lay off 220 teachers

I'd rather they keep my $300 and hire more teachers.

[wuushew]

6. What tax bracket are you in?

Also tax cut = service cut.

The national debt is mortaged on our childrens future.

[smiley_glad_hands]

7. Sorry I went off--

Didn't watch Chump Boy 2nite---but from what i understand---it was only meant for approximately %40 of the country.

[BigDaddyLove]

8. In the Democratic Rebuttal...........

Daschle made a good point, he said that those tax-cuts that Bush gave are nifty, but they're not helping to lower the rising cost of healthcare, nor to the rising cost of property taxes etc.; the point being, that those tax cuts 'we' get, don't even come close to covering the rise of everything else....they are essentially a smokescreen.

[cmf]

9. Tax cuts without reducing spending

are wrong. They just shove the responsibility of payment on to future generations - with interest.

[Yupster]

58. Agree with you CMF

There just doesn't seem to be any ability to prioritize in Washington.

I would be more supportive of tax cuts if there was an attempt to cut some less important things, but nothing is ever cut. Everything is funded and taxes are cut too.

When my family has a budget emergency, we look over the budget and cut out some things, even things we enjoy. The government doesn't seem to be able to do this.

[ariellyn]

Because if you care about your children, you don't want to burden them

with the taxes you skipped out on today so they will pay them back for you thirty years from now to finance the debt that the cuts have created.

[morgan2]

10. yes tax cuts always sound good when they're for only you

The point is the government needs a certain level of money to keep performing their necessary functions. Without the govenment being properly funded things like policing and social programs dont get funded. By policing I mean things like the SEC and what not. As an example.. Without a functional SEC, you get a situation like what happened in the great depression. The wealthy snatch up all the means of production and most of the power in society. For capatalism to function, rules must be enforced and monopolies heavily regulated. I could get into a long and detailed explanation of why monopolies have to be regulated but not really the place.

[alcuno]

11. Because it's just an overcharged credit card and the big money

is going to the folks (who are all laughing at us) making over $200,000/year. Wouldn't you give $600 to have our 500 men and women back from the dead?

[alittlelark]

43. Some of us making over that amount

are hard core lefties who are going to donate our tax break to whomever emerges from the democratic fray. We're not all bad.:pals:

[alcuno]

80. I actually didn't mean laughing in a bad way - but laughing in disbelief

Because of my family, I know a lot of people with a substantial amount of wealth. Most of them were never groveling for a tax cut; in fact they seem a little embarrassed that others think they should get one.

[leesa]

12. Because you aren't getting any.

The tax cuts are only for the top 1% and corporations. And to thank us for our generosity, the corporations are moving all our jobs oversease. So now they don't have to pay taxes AND they don't have to pay wages or benefits.

You shouldn't want them because you are getting royally screwed!

[Yupster]

59. Only for the top 1 % ?

Is this hyperbole? or do you really believe this?

I got my first income taxed at 10 % instead of 15 %.

I got the majority of my income taxed at 25 % instead of 28 %.

I got my kid's tax credit raised from $ 400 to $ 1,000.

I got to put $ 3,000 in my IRA instead of $ 2,000 this year.

If you want to say Bill Gates got more that's fine, but saying I didn't get any tax cut is just ridiculous. I got a significant tax cut. To have any credibility at least put an exaggeration icon on or something. Some of us really do pay enough taxes to notice how much we pay.

[bleedingheart]

13. if your so worried about your share of the tax cuts to help feed your

family then you aren't one of the people Bush is giving the real money too....

[leftyandproud]

14. tax cuts SUCK

especially when vital programs are being starved...
get your priorities straight man!!
a little more $$$ in your pocket or free health insurance for everyone?

[raifield]

15. You want education, healthcare, reliable roads, etc?

For you and your family? You have to pay for it. A tax cut pushes the country further into a deficet until the point comes where funding starts to be cut. Then your children can go to crappy schools, unless you have a good job that didn't go to India, but if you decide to have more kids, you might find the hospital delivers the baby then tells you to get up and go.

The same thing is happening in my town, actually. Been here fifteen years now. A tax cut was passed a few years ago, now the town has grown and another school is needed. There's no money in the coffers for it anymore.

[Cassandra]

16. Taxes are what make democracy work...

in a country the size of ours now. They pay for the police and firefighters, the courts, the public schools and hospitals, the people who try to keep your food, water and air safe. They pay for the roads and trains that bring your food to you so you don't have to grow it yourself. The majority of your taxes go to Social Security, Medicare, the Armed Forces and interest payments on the debt. Everything else is a small fraction of the total. What is it you didn't want to pay for?

[saline]

17. The question is fair.

Obviously opposing tax cuts for the middle or lower classes is far more difficult than opposing them for the wealthy. On the other hand however taxes are absolutely necessary to the function of government. This is something that always seems to be missed by anti-tax zealouts (not you alltogethernow but they certainly are out there). Taxes aren't just burned in the basement of the IRS to keep them warm. They're used to fund programs like job education, roads and public universities. The reason to support these seem somewhat obvious it's good to have people employed, roads are nice to drive on, public universities provide education to those who would otherwise be left out.

These programs keep some of the least fortunate of our societies off the streets and give them hope for the future. I believe it was John Rawls who stated that society and societal institutions should be judged by how they treat the least well off. For me it is with this justification that taxes become less an annoyance and more a way of ensuring that we're moving toward a just and happy society.

Then again I've never really paid taxes as I'm still just a sophmore in college.

[Yupster]

60. The three programs you mentioned

probably don't make up 2 % of the federal budget.

The three programs that are eating up the budget at a greater percentage each year are social security, medicare, and interest on the debt.

All three programs have one thing in common. They are transfers of wealth from younger people to older people. Older people are the wealthiest group of Americans by the way.

[Gulf Coast J]

113. Great point about the elderly

The one partisan point my intro to PoliSci prof would also make was that the biggest transfer of wealth by the federal government isn't from rich to poor, it's from young to old. I have no problem helping out the elderly who need the help. But it's silly that the rich elderly benefit from an old age insurance program.

[BeatleBoot]

18. Enjoy your tax cuts

But don't bitch when shit starts falling apart around you.

The city sewer outside of your home.

The streets you drive on (love those winter pot holes). Watch how fast they get fixed when there's no funding for them.

How's your township water flowing, okay?

Your local library, park, sidewalks, public transportation.

Love those tax cuts. Every state in the union is dealing with them.

[nini]

19. the local news tonight had stories about the fire and police depts..

they're struggling to man enough people to do their jobs correctly because they're not getting funding that those taxes would provide.



If we want to live in a country with safe transportation methods, decent police and fire depts, decent sewer systems, decent power supplies , etc. etc.. we have to pay for it somehow. It goes on and on.

And it shouldn't come on the backs of the middle class only.

[Gulf Coast J]

118. But how much of that is done by the federal government?

Even if the feds reduced spending by the amount of revenue lost from tax cuts, would that affect police, fire, sewer, power and the other things? Most federal government spending is on the military and transfer payments. You are not making an honest argument here.

[never cry wolf]

Looks like another hit and run thread starter

I was gonna add the 20% of the budget pays for the deficits ronnie raygun and king george 1st ran up in the form of interest on the national debt and another 20% goes to national defense. (not counting the "bonus" 150 Bil for Iraq.)

on edit: please read this, really our system is not very efficient.

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

[kentuck]

20. Because there is no free lunch...

If your property taxes go up and your health care costs go up and college tuition goes up, you eventually come to the realization that you are paying more at one level at the same time you got a taxcut at another level. And every dime is borrowed. You and I and your children in the future will pay not only what George W Bush has borrowed to give you a taxcut today, but we will have to pay interest on it also, just like a credit card....just like a credit card. It is not free money. If we want a society with certain amenities, like good roads, good schools, clean water, etc, then we have to pay for it. If we decide that we are paying too much in taxes, then we have to cut services somewhere or we have to borrow the money to pay for it. And borrowed money is a permanent tax. And it is a tax which you get nothing for. What would you think is the tax bill on the present national debt?

[Ready4Change]

21. Honest answer

Government programs cost money, and that money comes from our taxes. Deficits happen when government spends more than it receives in taxes. The Bush adminstration is creating unprecedently HUGE deficits.

To pay for those deficits, the government takes out loans, which impose interest payments that our children will be burdoned by. But that's not all.

The bad economy which we recovered from during the Clinton administration was brought on to a large extent by the crushing deficits run up by Reagan and Bush. I firmly believe our current mixed results economy is hindered by fear of the massive deficits being run up by Bush II.

So, by not paying some taxes now, you not only guarantee that you'll need to pay much more in taxes later, but that you may have to due so in a much weaker economy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

22. ...Are you coming back to your thread to respond?

:shrug:

[tkmorris]

23. LOL, where'd ya go?

The sniper, having sniped, moves on.

OK, OK. Maybe you really did want to talk about this. Come on back and we'll chat. There are already several responses up, what say you to the reasoning?

[BeatleBoot]

24. Well, did we answer your question ALLTOGETHERNOW?

Please don't tell me you are a sissy like Bush?

I don't vote for sissies.

[...Alltogethernow]

29. Unless you're joking, I take offense at this remark

... I consider myself middle America, similar to concerns shared like most here. However, raising kids these days, mortgages, car payments, milk (by gallons) and dance classes, soccer; it's danged hard to raise them as I see fit.

... Like you, I want the best for my children. The extra $930 or so a year in my favor catches my attention. Better than someone swiping another $930/year from me that I have less to raise my kids correctly.

... Seriously, I'm proudly a Democrat but many of you are shredding my ideals.

... Don't hate

[never cry wolf]

31. Have you done your taxes yet for 2003?

A large percentage of the checks that were sent out were just an advance that you won't now get on your return.

[...Alltogethernow]

33. I did receive a welcomed check in 2003

... but admittedly, I've haven't figured 2003 yet.

... That said, I'm damned concerned where my money goes. Yes, many would consider a six figure income an "outtie", be we share the same concerns about the Country as you do.

... and if you lived in a place like I do, you'd too, see how much of your income is swallowed up by questionable taxes. (and not only those imposed by the government either)

[Pithlet]

35. Who else imposes taxes?

Where do you live? Because, I've only ever been taxed by the government.

[...Alltogethernow]

38. When is the last time you checked you SprintPCS, ARCO gasoline, cableTV..

... ad infinitum bills?

[wuushew]

40. Sprint PCS and cable TV are not necessities

gas costs can be reduced by buying a more efficient vehicle.

[Yupster]

61. I think the poster meant that

if you look at your phone bill, cable tv bill, etc, you'll find there are taxes there too.

[Pithlet]

41. Bills are taxes?

I have a cell phone too, and it's nice and all, but I'd hardly call that a tax burden.

[Gulf Coast J]

121. Have you looked at the line items on your phone bill?

Taxes take up about 40% of my land line. They take up about 10% of my cell phone. I think that's what he is talking about.

[maggrwaggr]

36. take a drive through Mexico and you'll see where your taxes go

in this country.

You'll appreciate things like clean air, clean water, roads that you can trust won't break your axles, the fact that someone actually shows up to fight a fire, the fact that there aren't millions of people living in cinderblock and cardboard huts with no electricity and no sewers. You'll appreciate the highways you drive on.

I recommend this to everybody.

[...Alltogethernow]

39. Not arguing this salient point

... Just manage what we have. No new taxes! (from a middle class Democrats point of view)

[maggrwaggr]

119. your little tax cut is a bribe, so you won't complain

about the rich folks getting their MASSIVE tax cuts.

The romans used to throw loaves of bread into the crowds at the gladiatorial fights. This is the same as your loaf of bread

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Where your money goes

On the Federal level, the largest chunk of non-Social Security, non-Medicare spending (over half) goes to the Pentagon, and much of the rest goes to the interest on the national debt, most of which is due to Republican pumping up military spending to a leve that is higher than the next ten highest countries combined.

I bet you're mad because you think that all your tax money goes to "welfare cheats" or "foreign aid." Nope. Foreign aid is less than one percent of the Federal budget, and everything that isn't either military spending or the national debt is only 15% of the budget.

If you're an honest advocate of tax cutting, please tell me which government program that you personally benefit from that you are willing to cut so that your family can have an extra $18 a week.

[Yupster]

63. This would be a fun DU exercise

Get a copy of the budget and see which programs could be cut or eliminated. Might be interesting.

[Djinn]

37. it's pretty simple really

do your kids go to a private or public school? do you expect that their school provides up to date books, adequate supervision and clean toilets?

the car that you're making payments on - do you drive it on publicly funded roads or just around and around your own property?

the gallons of milk consumed by your family - do you expect it to be clean and free from bacteria? do you think foods would continue to be safe (assuming you beleive feeding ruminants other ruminants and eating GE is safe but's that's an argument for another time) if there were NO inspectors at all? if your child gets sick from eating contaminated food can you afford to pay for all the treatment they may need (eg dialysis for life) will your tax cut make up for the lack of funding in these and many other areas.

Also I may have grabbed the wrong end of the stick but are you really saying that on a six figure income you'd like to begrudge the govt (who pays for all of the many services and programs mentioned above) a huge 2.50 per day? - would that extra money REALLY go to car payments/schooling or just another Starfucks coffee?

[stevedeshazer]

25. Do you...

Have kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews who attend school?

Drive on public roads?

Have parents who are elderly?

Work for a business that depends on roads, airlines, railroads for delivery of goods?

Want Medicare or Social Security?

Want unemployment benefits when you lose your job?

Depend on a strong military for protection?

Go to college?

Care if your descendants are saddled with the interest on trillions of dollars of debt?

Want police, fire, and medical when you call 911?

Use gasoline, natural gas, or electricity?

Brush against homeless people?

Want a prison system that works?

Want to buy food products that are safe?

How much of this are you willing to give up for some extra bucks? And what would you do with it? Would you start a charity, a faith-based foundation, or buy more crap?

[BeatleBoot]

26. I'm Tired of Sissies

I watched one give a speech tonight on the TV.

He acted like he was a big man that earned something in his life.

So sick of GOP sissies.

[aquart]

27. Because they make your taxes go up. And every fee.

You have kids? They're expensive. Hope they're healthy. Hope you're healthy and your wife. Because one serious illness will wipe you out.

But I'm sure you've saved enough for that. And those accounts that Bush mentions, of course they'll be enough. There are citizens who need to spend 1600 a month or more on medicine, but you'll never be one of those.

And you have enough in retirement funds. Even if the dollar crashes, you and your wife have a secure old age.

Your children, being brilliant will have full scholarships to the Ivy League because other colleges are cutting back on scholarships and raising tuition as Federal funding is cut. Did Bush speak of Pell grants? Didn't he cut them to the bone last time out? You're kids won't need one so it won't matter if he talks about them but doesn't fund them.

Going to Mars doesn't mean anything in your life. You'll never need a titanium hip replacement, either. That's a metal developed for the space program that has a few other nifty uses.

You don't need to see taxes going for dumb things like the Human Genome project because no one in your family has a hereditary disease of the heart or thyroid or anything else. And none of your grandchildren will either.

You sure don't need to pay for someone else's kids to have breakfast. You will never lose your job and neither will your wife. Your kids will always have a job, too. That's America.

And if you want to go on vacation, you can afford whatever it costs for a passport. And they better get it to you on time, too. Who does that, btw?

You don't need your meat inspected or your milk or the steel girders in the parking garage at your mall. That stuff takes care of itself in a free market. Nobody wants to grab a profit fast that will send him to jail later. But, if he does, it doesn't matter because no one you love will ever get sick from a bad hamburger or die in a building collapse. Or be crippled on the job because the work was arranged to be done cheaply instead of safely.

Your kids will never have asthma from polluted air. Or cry that the beach is too dirty to be fun...you'll always have access to white sands and pure white snow.

There will be enough fireman if fire rages over the hill and comes down to your house. And enough policemen to catch anyone foolish enough to steal from you. Enough judges to try them.

When Bush gives every dime in America to the superwealthy, it isn't there for any of that. It doesn't go back into the system because they've already bought everything they need. So the fed government is starved, which starves the states, which starves the cities, counties, and towns. The only thing you can really do with so much money is run a country or buy an election.

And you know what he has to after he's given the wealth of this nation away (I know the rich say it's the money THEY earned, but a CEO earns 75 million while the employees of his corporations earn less than a hundredth, a thousandth of that. If he gave back 10 million of the money earned by someone else's sweat, how many jobs wouldn't need to be shipped overseas?)George has to borrow to make up the shortfall. The treasury notes George issues, American debt, are owned by China and Japan. Do you want to live on China's charity? Because that's what's happening. Bush and his pals party, and China supports the country.

That's why you don't want a tax cut.

[never cry wolf]

28. BRAVO, Aquart!!

You made a hit and run thread well worth it, I am bookmarking!!

Very well put!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

30. Thank you-beautifully done!

:hi:

[alittlelark]

56. brilliantly stated

well digested. Those with a skill for minimal words w/ max effect amaze me (same post for me would be 4-5 pages)!!!

[cryofan]

32. Anyone who makes 200K + should be taxed at a very high rate

We need to go back to the days of progressive taxation where people making 200K or more paid 60% or so in taxes.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. $200K is Middle Class in NYC, Boston, or San Francisco

I think the threshold should be higher. It's bad enough living in an urban area where housing prices begin at $400K and the cost of living is exhorbitant without taking into account these issues.

$200K may be wealthy in Peoria or Lubbock, but a family of four would have to be frugal in the Northeast or Bay Area.

[Sandpiper]

42. Wealth really is relative to where you live

In San Diego, where I live, you can't afford even a small house if your income is less than $80,000/year. $200,000/year might make you wealthy in Peoria, but in most of California it would only make you upper middle class.

[...Alltogethernow]

45. Doncha know it!

... n/t

[Djinn]

46. In Melbourne or Sydney

the average cost of a house is also around 400K - a 200K a year wage would STILL not be considered middle class by anyone except those actually earning that amount who like to delude themselves

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. 200K with children is different than 200K without

I have in-laws that make that-but they have four children. They have only one vehicle because Massachusetts has the most expensive car insurance in the country. Day care can easily eat one spouses annual income. They haven't taken a vacation in quite sometime.

It is dependent on cost of living. And it should be adjusted accordingly.

On edit: to give you some indication of housing prices here as opposed to Sydney, $400K will get you a 1 Bedroom usually less than 800 sq feet. Again if you have kids, and you want to live in a nice community, expect to pay 600-700K for a starter home. Further away from the metro area prices go down.

[...Alltogethernow]

53. Thank you, I guess I do have undrestanding friends here

... n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

55. I don't agree with you though-I think you have enough evidence

to see that the tax cuts in the long run are EXTREMELY harmful.

[Djinn]

54. You might want to check your Sydney figures

But if you can find a house with more than 1 bedroom that isn't a total fit to be condemned hovel in the Sydney metro area for less than 400k please tell me where coz I'll find a way to buy it!!

EG - block of land that's completely bare = expected sale price = above $350, once you've built a house you're looking at over half a mill ATLEAST

but like everywhere if you're prepared to live further out or in a less posh area it costs less - you makes your choixces (including whether or not to have kids!)

[alittlelark]

44. In SF - you are asking a lot.

We work hard, play hard, make good $, but pay through the nose to live here.

[...Alltogethernow]

47. Yup

... sure is

[wuushew]

50. So why do you continue to live there?

If a place costs more to live in then you can expect to earn then there is an economic disincentive to live there. As people move away both the demand for land and a tightening of the labor pool act as tools equalizing income imbalances.

Do you believe in regional exceptionalism?

[...Alltogethernow]

52. duh!

... It's where I make my livelihood!

[alittlelark]

57. I live here because of the intellectual stimulation.

Stanford and Berkeley grads stay in this area. I live in a area which has ex-rad 60's hippies, a few people who started the tech revolution (1 next door), The only independant radio network (PACIFICA), Protests which attract over 1/4 million........

There are many reasons. I pay the price to live here with little complaint. Incidently, I know of only 3 people in my circle who approve of *, and only one is die hard determined to vote for him!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Maybe your problem isn't taxes

Maybe it's a stingy boss and greedy real estate speculators.

[FDRrocks]

62. 400 dollars is your bribe...

corporations get much more to destroy your environment and subjugate workers. If all the unneeded bullshit gov't spending were eliminated (majorly: Defense (i.e. Aggression)) and a progressive tax system were implimented, you'd be paying very little. And you wouldn't have to witness extreme poverty.

[KT2000]

64. Want tax cuts?

then you should be honest about it and take the cuts in services proportionately.

You may think that you do not use services - maybe it is only those poor people.

Go through every waking moment of your day and analyze where you make use of tax paid services. To get you started::
roads; schools; health research for children's diseases; fire and police protection; tax breaks for your employer?; prisons to lock up the dangerous; pollution controls and surveillance by the EPA; health research for disabling diseases that can strike you or your loved ones; Medicare; airport facilities; emergency rescue equipment for land, sea and wilderness; medical surveillance of contagious diseases; marinas and port authorities; AIDS education for prevention -

And agencies to protect worker safety - that includes you, the people who work on every item in your home, your childrens' teachers, the nurses aids at you grandma's nursing home; agencies that protect the vulnerable - children, foster care, nursing homes, developmentally disabled; public health programs. Agencies that should be watching the banks and brokerage houses; stopping mobsters from controlling commerce in your community; the people who pick up the dead animals in the street; the people who maintain the public parks; the people who make sure th stop signs are up and on and on.

I do not have children, I do not commute to work, I have used airports on rare occasions; I do not need snow removal equipment to clear roads for my travel; buses do not serve the area where i live. But I pay taxes that support others' use of these services.

This is not pay as you go - we are working together to build a country that supports the many - health, safety and compassion. What are your expectations for a safe, healthy environment for you and your children? Where are you willing to cut back on those expectations?

[Selwynn]

65. Because this country isn't all about you - its all about all of us

First, accept the fact that it is in fact in your best interests, and the best interests of your family, that everyone have decent education opportunities and health care and good roads, and a change at a decent job. It's people who have bought into the idea of radical individualism who have created a vast majority of the problems we face today. We as a society need to work hard to insure that you personally can raise your family and raise them well, but in contract, so you have to support the health of society by supporting the creating and sustaining of the most equitable system possible. It's better for you if thousands of people in places you have very little control over have access to quality education and affordable health care. If these people are strong, they'll invest directly back into your future, but buying your products or employing your children or contributing to a safer neighborhood, etc.

Second, accept the fact that tax cuts enacted since Bush has taken office have had very little impact on the middle class. The problem isn't so much tax cuts period. The problem is the timing of the cuts and more importantly, the target of the cuts. The rich disproportionately benefited from both rounds of tax cuts while the poor and middle class got next to nothing. That is a problem as well.

Again, all tax cuts aren't evil. It's just than in this care, they are. :)

[Serenity-NOW]

66. Possibly because they aren't tax cuts?

More like a payday advance, but check your taxes to be sure. Then figure in the increase in local taxes and watch the potholes grow, the fires rage and schools close. It was a sham.

On edit: NO ELECTED US President has ever enacted a tax cut during time of war. In fact, most have raised taxes to cover the cost and avoid a deficit. But since this joker wasn't elected your kids, and their kids, can pick up the tab for the departure from reality.

[stickdog]

67. For the same reason you should pay more than your credit card minimum.

Bush has grown Government at TWICE the rate Clinton did.

Meanwhile, tax revenues are WAY, WAY down and the budget deficit is WAY, WAY up.

You are running up a huge interest bill, and EVEN WORSE, you and your children will be forced to pay off RICH PEOPLE's interest bills as well.

[GOPBasher]

68. I'll try.

I have no idea how much money you make, but if it's less than $200k a year, I think you got very little in Bush's tax cuts. At any rate, many of our candidates will let you keep those tax cuts IF you make less than said $200k a year. They will only repeal the tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans.

Another point I want to make: Bush is racking up the largest deficits in history. Do you want your kids to pay that back with interest, or do you think we should pay our own bills right now?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. People vote their pocketbooks-but even those who make between

200K-500K didn't get a huge refund. It was the millionaires and billionaires who benefitted.

[Bandit]

70. It is called civic responsibility

I realize the Republicans want to shirk off all responsibility for the maintenance and upkeep of our country but Democrats are better people.

[Old Lefty]

71. Who on DU actually pays taxes?

It would be very interesting to see how many DU members actually pay taxes--Income taxes. Not social security taxes or sales taxes, but Income taxes. Because it is income tax cuts we are talking about. How many people here don't make enough money to pay income taxes? How many DU'ers live off of actual taxpayer's hard earned money? $200,000 per year makes you rich? Holy crap! Maybe if you are single and live in some back woods mountain hell hole.

What we really need is to scrap the income tax and social security tax programs altogether. Has anyone visited fairtax.org? You should visit this site and very carefully read the entire text of their tax proposal.

[Selwynn]

72. You know what, your post is pretty insulting.

200,000 dollars a year makes you rich. That's right. Give me a friggen break if you somehow want to argue otherwise. I'm not saying its wrong to make 200,000k a year, I'm just saying that when that puts you in the top 1% of income earners in the ENTIRE WORLD that certainly makes you "rich."

I'm make 50k a year and pay taxes, and you sir, have absolutely no justification for talking so disgustingly about the poor "living off the actual taxpayer's hard earned money." So I guess those who don't make enough to pay income taxes aren't hard working? The poor are just lazy and worthless, right?

[Old Lefty]

77. I'm not saying the poor are lazy.

Where in my post did I say lazy? What I am saying is that those who don't pay INCOME taxes shouldn't be looking for an INCOME tax break. Fairtax.org is not a right wing organization. Some repukes are involved so it automatically is bad? Get YOUR facts straight. That type of closed minded non-thinking is what I'd expect from from a freeper. Are you the anti-freeper?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

78. No but Selwynn can smell one a mile away

:eyes:

[jasoncann]

87. The top 50% of wage earners pay 96.03% of income taxes...

The IRS has the proof http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

[never cry wolf]

115. They also enjoy the most benefits of our society

I have no problem with that!

[Maeve]

127. Notice, too, that in 2001 the adjusted gross income floor

For that 50% was $28,528. So the bottom 50% were living on less than that....and some on this thread have said that $200K is "middle class".

[Selwynn]

122. Umm... good?

It is the price that should be eagerly paid for prosperity, and a healthy society. It's in everyone's interest that well all have access to good health care and decent roads and shelter, and a chance at a good education. The health and prosperity of my neighbor is of direct and critical important to my own interests - it is in my interest that more of society has access to the highest standard of living possible.

I'm happy to bear the tax burden. The wealthy and successful ought to want to invest in the long term health of the society that made them wealthy and successful. It's in their own interests to live in the best and most healthy society possible. It's in the interest of their children to invest in the long term sustainability of peace and prosperity. And the only way to move toward greater economic liberty and equality is if the most powerful and successful among us choose to believe that we are ALL worth it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

74. Fairtax.org is a right-wing website

sposored by Dick Armey and Grover Norquist.

And your attitude sucks-corporations suck off the government tit far more than the poor. Get your facts straight before you come here and spew right-wing propaganda.

HEre is a press release:

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/news/2000_archives/americaslargest.pdf

[CBHagman]

76. Uh, Old Lefty, I pay federal tax, Medicare tax, county tax, state tax...

...Social Security tax, etc. I've left out a few.


I don't own a car, but my transportation costs (bus, subway) have gone up through increased fares.

Yes, people on DU pay taxes, and on many occasions.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. Dismissed!

I make way into six figures, and my wife is a teacher who makes ok money. I pay my taxes and have no complaints. Yes, genius, income taxes. Probably more in every year than you since 1980!

Scrapping the income tax based upon lamebrained proposals like those found at fairtax, is just plain stupid, economically unsound, and enormously regressive.

I don't expect you to understand any of this, though. If you think their proposals are sound, there's not a chance you'd comprehend.
The Professor

[PVnRT]

73. Tax cuts for the middle class/working poor are great

And no Democrat in the world is saying that we should be against those.

What you should be against are tax cuts for the ultra-rich, who get tax breaks that amount to probably more than what you make in a year. Which, in the end, is little more than piss-around money to them.

Besides that, those who can afford to help those that can't help themselves should do so. This is laid down in every religious text known to man, and beyond that, it's just the honorable, decent thing to do. We pay the lowest amount of taxes in the industrialized world - we don't have a lot to bitch about here.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. The Republican con of the century

is making the poor and middle class believe that the tax cuts are for them.

They're not.

Cuts in fed taxes mean that more responsibilities are put onto the states, which then raise their taxes.

If you don't want to live in the equivalent of El Salvador, someone has to collect taxes to provide public services.

By the way, residents of the U.S. pay some of the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, have some of the worst public services, and bitch about taxes more than people in countries that have higher rates but better services.

Would you pay higher taxes if it meant that you never had to pay another health insurance premium or see a doctor, dentist, or hospital bill or pay college tuition for your kids or if you didn't HAVE to have two cars because your community had superb public transit or if your schools were able to have small classes in all grades?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[picus9]

82. Small government is beautiful.

That government which governs least governs best ! Don't tread on me, bitches!

[Old Lefty]

89. You're right picus9

The pork in any federal spending bill, no matter which party is running this country, is horrific. Give me that damn budget. I'd make some real cuts.

[Bridget Burke]

96. Which special interests are you talking about?

People with children? The little buggers demand this expensive "education" stuff.

Sick people--or people who don't want to get sick? Health care is expensive, too.

What about veterans? Old farts who managed not to get killed... (And some younger men & women who will now require continuing health care.)

And, please, why did you use the word "bitches"? I'm not such a feminist that I don't ever use it. But you seem to have some specific group in mind. Elucidate, please.

[Old Lefty]

84. No I wouldn't pay higher taxes for those services.

This government was not formed to provide health care, college tuition or public trasportation. And most hard working middle class Americans would rather take responsibility for their own health care, college tuition and their own transportation. You couldn't pay me to ride a bus every day. No thank you.

[Pithlet]

90. Most Americans

would rather go into huge debt and lose everything due to one catastrophic illness? People would rather decide whether they retire or send their kids to college (if they can do either)? Really. What alternate universe where everyone can afford those things on their own do you come from? And does that universe have unlimited natural resources to accommodate every single person who has to own a car because there's no public transportation? Large cities like New York couldn't function without public transportation, except maybe in uber-libertarian bizarro-world.

[Old Lefty]

98. Large cities are the problem.

If humans were meant to live like insects, packed together in these sewage pits we call cities, we'd have friggin wings and stingers on our asses. Why people feel the need to live like this is beyond me. The strain cities put on the environment is enormous.

And, yes, most hard working Americans can afford to put their kids through college.

[wuushew]

105. When did suburbanization become ecologically friendly?

n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

109. LOL-it's the argument against us 'URBAN HEATHEN LIBRULS'

:eyes:

And all the 'minororities' and 'uppity women' and 'homosexuls' that live in the big cities like Noo Yawk, Queer Francisco, and Baahsten.

Suburbia is the bastion of the 'Nookuler' family, white picket fences, and more importantly white people.

That suburban sprawl causes traffic and environmental problems is secondary to the fact that it is the foundation of American virtue!

/sarcasm on/

[Kathy in Cambridge]

106. Wrong. Most Can't. That's why they go into the armed forces.

[Beetwasher]

111. What A Load of Unmitigated Crap

So everyone should live like YOU think they should live?

No one is forcing you to live in this country. You don't like it, move. In this country real patriots have no problems paying taxes for the privelege of living here. Don't you think this great country is worth supporting by paying your fair share of taxes? What are you, some sort of communist?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

99. Sure Most Americans Would Rather be Responsible For Their

Own healthcare. So why do over 40 million Americans not have it? It may have something to do with a livable wage more than being taxed to death.

How do YOU define middle class anyway?

[picus9]

79. You shouldn't no country has ever taxed itself into prosperity

Yes, tax cuts benefit the rich, but they also benefit anyone else who pays taxes in direct relation to their tax bracket.

I don't care who disagrees with me here. They are brainwashed. The founding fathers fought a war over taxes and the principles of small govt that has been wiped away over the last 100 years by beurocracy and red tape.

Don't cut programs - cut the fat we'll all benefit.

[ProfessorGAC]

85. Unbrilliant!

Your quote: ". . .no country has ever taxed itself into prosperity" (Bad grammar and all)

Wrong! The United States, Britain, and Japan have had higher tax burdens many times since 1950 than today! And, which three countries have the strongest individual macroeconomies? Three guesses and the right answers are IN THIS POST!

Typical of someone without a whit of knowledge as to how macroeconomies actually work.

Also: You don't care who disagrees with you?!?!? I don't care if you are too foolish to realize that the whole premise of your post is fatally flawed. So we're even I don't care at all.

But, i'm right, and you're wrong.
The Professor

[Old Lefty]

91. Talk about bad grammar, Professor!

"So we're even I don't care at all."

What the hell does that mean? Hmmmmm.....?

[Selwynn]

108. Wow - the ressurection of debunked trickle down economics, live at DU

Fantastic!

[TahitiNut]

128. "The founding fathers fought a war over taxes" ...

... on them, their children, and their children's children to pay for the wars of King George -- wars that only benefitted King George and his crony group of plutocrats and autocrats. At the same time, in England, taxes on those same cronies were reduced!

History, as they say, repeats itself. :eyes:

[jasoncann]

86. Re: Please, tell me why I should oppose tax cuts?"

You know Alltogethernow this is a really good question..

I've been reading through all the posts about this discussion and I haven't seen one really good reason why tax cuts are not good for you and your family. A limited amount of taxes are a necessary evil to run a government properly, however the level of taxation that the American people are paying is horrendous. It is far from where our founding fathers envisioned.

A very short explanation about why reduced taxes is a good thing is as follows:

With more money in your pocket you spend more, which in turn adds money into the economy, which ultimately increases revenues in companies, who ultimately hire people who ultimately pay taxes. So by giving you a small tax cut it is by far producing more taxes.

In addition who knows better for your family than you. Would you trust someone else spending your family budget for you? Or do you think you know whats best for them.

Now let me ask you a question... If taxation was between 70-90% of your paycheck. Would there be any incentive to work, to produce, to make a better life?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

92. Great talking points!

Was the Bushbot Bazaar having a fire sale today on baseless arguments?

"With more money in your pocket you spend more, which in turn adds money into the economy, which ultimately increases revenues in companies, who ultimately hire people who ultimately pay taxes. So by giving you a small tax cut it is by far producing more taxes."

Yes, those companies are sending white collar jobs overseas. Small businesses-the backbone of our nation-are getting screwed. And these small-and medium-sized companies hire more Americans than their multi-national counterparts. IBM, for example, just announced the creation of 15,000 new jobs-12,000 of them white collar tech jobs overseas. The paltry 3,000 left here are low-wage jobs.

Oh, and what about those glowing reports about holiday spending? There WEREN'T any, despite the tax cuts!

"If taxation was between 70-90% of your paycheck. Would there be any incentive to work, to produce, to make a better life?"

In Europe the taxes are high but the quality of life is too. Free education, healthcare and retirement benefits. Only the wealthy pay 70% taxes-they did in the US in the 1970s as well.

Please take you're easily-dismissed propaganda elsewhere. I would welcome you to DU but I doubt you'll have much more to say...

[Bandit]

93. What garbage

That is exactly what every right-winger said to the Democrats in 1993 and all (as in every single one) Republicans voted against President Clinton's Budget. They said it would bankrupt America and said almost exactly what you said in your post. The US went on to experience the greatest economic expansion in our history. The exact opposite of what was claimed by the Republicans. Now they have all the power and are doing what you say and we have experienced the greatest economic turn-around in our history. The wrong direction of course. If what you said were true the proof would be in the puddin but the exact opposite has been proven to be the case.

[Pithlet]

94. Yeah

who cares that it creates a huge deficit, like it already has?

Oh yeah, those jobs are just rolling in after those generous tax cuts for mainly the wealthy.

And, great idea, lets just leave the budgeting up to everyone individually, and wonder where the roads, schools, police, and firemen will come from.

[Maeve]

104. What, you don't like Supply-side econ?

Just because it never works in real life? :D

"Your" money, yeah...and "your" roads, "your" army, "your" air force, "your" dams, "your" mail service, "your" schools, "your" police, "your" fire departments, "your" protection from others ripping you off....

[ElsewheresDaughter]

88. have you been enlightened?

[wuushew]

95. Why the hell is this thread being taken over by freepers?

Did Rush open his mouth against DU again?

[Pithlet]

97. Because mentioning taxes

turns them into frothing-at-the-mouth irrational ditto heads who don't seem to need public services like the rest of us.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

101. It's the Fallout from the SOTU

their master Shrub has implored them to action. The problem is, once faced with a cogent argument, they can't handle it.

[jasoncann]

102. Re:

So you don't have a logical rebuttle against my statment? All you can do is insult.. interesting.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

103. There are plenty of logical rebuttals-check the responses

whether you have the faculties to understand logic is another question altogether.

[jasoncann]

107. Re:

I guess that would be my response to you.. but someone in the government hasn't dumbed it down for you so I highly doubt your able to understand it.

The posts are not logical explanations they are emotional responses.. poor me.. you have more than i do i want yours..

[Kathy in Cambridge]

112. No they are factual

FACT: jobs being exported overseas

FACT: worst Xmas shopping season since 1991.

FACT: only 1,000 jobs were created last month

FACT: the two tax cuts have only helped the very wealthy

FACT: you won't be here long

[Bandit]

116. You're still here?

Take your right-wing garbage somewhere the morons live like Freeperland. They suck it up like there's no tomorrow.

[never cry wolf]

120. Did you read the link I posted above?

Here it is again, it is a long essay and maybe too much for you to comprehend but please do try to read through it all and then get back to me on which society is better off.

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

[Pithlet]

126. Not at all

We just realize that we don't live in fantasy land where waving the magic fairy tax-cut wand doesn't bring about all those wonderful things you seem to think it will, and has no negative consequences.

[LeahMira]

100. What would you care to do without?

I'm trying to raise a family, and I don't necessarily want any more of my hard earned money going places I have very little control over. That money makes the difference in my household (not sure about yours)

At the moment, every penny counts in my home. It bothers me that I have to pay for a war that I didn't want to be fought. We have income that isn't just from wages, so it will be hard to write that check on April 15, knowing that most of it will go towards oppressing the weakest and the poorest both overseas and here at home and lining the pockets of an already enormously wealthy 1% of the population. Tell ya...sometimes it feels like a moral dilemma.

At the same time, we all receive some services from the federal government, so if you want a tax cut, exactly what federal service would you recommend we all do without? Because, really, the prices of goods and services isn't coming down for you, me, or the federal government. As long as costs stay the same, taxes to pay those costs will stay the same. Which service will you do without?

These days, we are seeing exactly what Bush thinks we can do without from the federal government... schools, health care, environmental protection, food quality inspections, safe drugs that have been tested, the list continues...

[jasoncann]

117. Re: What would you care to do without?"

Nothing...

This is America.. if I earn I should be able to keep.. plain and simple.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

133. Have you ever been to Mexico or a third world country?

You can see for yourself there what your taxes pay for here-the contrast is horrifying. The roads would fuck your car up instantly, the air is polluted and the water undrinkable. If you're assaulted, fat chance a policeman will show up, and if your house is on fire, good luck because the fire department is 100 miles away.

If you want to keep your tax money, you're welcome to move to a country with no or extremely low taxes. Just don't expect the quality of life you experience here.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

134. DUPE

.

[Beetwasher]

135. Yes, this is America, and you should be HAPPY to give back

to it. You've been given the opportunity to live in this great country and make money. REAL patriots don't whine about taxes. They realize they are LUCKY to have the opportunity to live here and make a good living and that for this great country to run and exist it needs money and it getst that money from TAXES. Stop whining and be patriotic and pay your taxes like a good citizen and count your blessings that you have the opportunity to give back to your country so that you can have good roads, clean water, clean air, police protection, an armed forces, security and freedom, all paid for by TAXES.

[IrateCitizen]

138. Me, me, me! Mine, mine, mine!

This is America.. if I earn I should be able to keep.. plain and simple.

I think the title to my post sums up your attitude pretty well. If you're still unclear as to what I think you're saying, I'll try another angle.

"I've got mine, Jack -- screw everybody else." :eyes:

The problem with your line of thought is that it stems from the myth of America being founded on "rugged individualism" and that everyone who made it, did so on their own.

That belief is just that -- a myth.

You've cited the Founding Fathers several times thus far. Well, there's a little phrase from a document they wrote that applies here.

We The People of the United States, in order to... promote the general welfare....

Promoting the general welfare -- that's what a system of fair taxation and funding of government services is all about. Now, you can argue until you're blue in the face that the Constitution is meant to exist today in the exact same form in which it was written -- but you'll find few takers. Rather, many of the FF's believed that there should be a new Constitutional Convention every ten years or so. Ben Franklin endorsed the Constitution only because the country needed SOMETHING upon which to function -- but he believed that it was essential to revisit it after the government had been first established.

In this sense, using taxes to "promote the general welfare" in fact DOES go along with the intention of many of the founding fathers, despite all of your protestations to the contrary.

[greekspeak]

110. Whine whine whine about taxes

This country would be in civil war if the people were taxed the way they are in other countries. I always bring up the example of a prof of mine who lived in Israel for graduate work and traveled all the way to Germany to buy a car, because the taxes he would have to have paid on the car would have been MORE than the cost of the car. THAT'S taxes. And, we would not have to pay as much of our income in taxes if all the uber-rich paid their fair share of taxes instead of exploiting loopholes and off-shore banking etc. So maybe go after this kind of thing instead of griping about taxes?

[jasoncann]

114. Re: Whine

How about supporting what you say..

The actual truth is the top 50% of wage earners pay 96.03% of the income taxes..

[never cry wolf]

123. As well they should!!...n/t

[Beetwasher]

124. Even if that were true, so what?

How much do the bottom 50% earn?

The top 50% probably hold 99.99% of all the wealth in this country. They SHOULD pay most of the taxes. Duh.

If I make $10,000 a year should I pay the same percentage as someone making 10 million? Does that person necessarily work harder? That person should be THANKFUL enough to pay their fair share of taxes because they live in this great country that allowed them to have the opportunity to make $10 million. True patriots don't whine about paying taxes. They are HAPPY to give back to the great country that allowed them the opportunity to get rich and are happy for the services that their country provides with those taxes, like good roads, beef that isn't tainted w/ mad cow disease, breathable air, clean water etc.

[jasoncann]

139. Re: Even if that were true, so what

You know your right.. You make more you pay more taxes.. of course...

So it also makes sense that if you make more and there is a tax cut you get a bigger tax break..

True Patriotism does not = Paying more taxes...

[Bridget Burke]

131. The "uber-rich" is not the top 50%....

("uber" is German for "over")

They're the ones who've, most likely, inherited their money. Not to mention the corporations--some of which pay NO taxes.

But you live for the day when you're in the top 50%. In the meantime, you're another one of Rush's suckers.

[jasoncann]

141. Re: The "uber-rich"

Not true..

John Weicher, as a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in his February 13, 1997 Washington Post Op-Ed, "Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking at the Fortune 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came from a standing start, while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation."

[Bandit]

132. How about supporting what you say?

Link to your figures unless it's to some right-wing fundamentalist site.

[Pithlet]

136. Okay

Now, imagine if their tax burden was proportionately fair. Imagine they didn't now enjoy all the new tax "relief" they got. They'd be paying even more taxes. Either that 96.03 would be a lot more, or, better yet, the rest of us wouldn't get soaked with all those taxes that some of us complain about. And, we wouldn't be saddled with the huge deficit we now have, that we and our children will be paying for.

[Maeve]

137. And that 50% dividing line is how much again?

$28,528 adjusted gross.

[PretzelWarrior]

129. because you don't make enough to fly...you need good roads.

because you don't make enough to live in gated community, you need good police forces. because you don't make enough to send kids to private schools, you need some solid teachers and good curriculums for your kids if they are to have a future.

I have no illusions. I think with 59 posts...you may be trying to get a reaction. You may think NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS would oppose tax cuts. But see. we've lived through the horrendous interest rates of 83/84 etc. partly caused by the government's need to borrow so much money because they were in debt up to their eyeballs thanks to Reagan.

We have a baseline amount we need to spend on the regular standard of living we are all used to. It isn't free, and a boost in business investment isn't going to be enough to counteract the shortfall in money in the budget.

Tax cuts when taxes are very high and excessive are a good thing. Tax cuts on top of tax cuts when we can't even pay for existing programs is national suicide. It's stupid for everyone except those who stand to gain the most and lose the least.

Check out who it is that doesn't need to rely on public schools, mass transit, police, fire, etc. It is the very wealthy...the rich corporations...Bush's buddies. A good 80% of Americans are getting screwed by this and a good 50% of the screwed are still willing to vote for the guy. Unfathomable.

[YNGW]

130. Get A Good Accountant.

I'm qualified for the top tax bracket and I've paid less than 8% of my taxable income in combined Federal & State taxes for the past 30+ years. Many accountants do not know how to use the tax laws to the advantage of their clients, a dereliction of their fiduciary duty. Ask around until you find an accountant that knows their stuff. They may cost a little more, but are well worth the money saved.

[Pithlet]

140. See how cool it is? (not directed at you, YNGW)

To be able to do that? (BTW, my household is in a top bracket as well, so I'm not picking on you, YNGW. I'm hoping other posters who think the rich pay their fair share sees this.) Kind of shoots that whole "The rich carry the tax burden" myth now, doesn't it?

[Moderator]

142. Locked.

Flamebait at the outset ... originator now among the 'dearly departed'.