The right wing and the christian church

[Hep]

The right wing has staged a huge coup. Most people don't talk about it. But we as democrats are in the perfect position to take our country back.

The Church.

I engage in discussions with a lot of young, liberal people. Most of them shun religion as being a bastion for fascists. Nothing could be further from the truth. The problem is that many christians these days think that republican = christian. But this isn't the case. If you read the foreward to Joe Conason's book Big Lies, he talks about the fundamentals of liberalism. And those fundamentals line up with the fundamentals of christianity.

The right wing has stolen the church from us, and as a result, more and more young people are turning away from their faith. We can win the church back to our side. Christianity must not be for neocons anymore.

We need to point out to people that we are just a bunch of people who believe that it is our responsibility to look out for our neighbors who are in need of help. We realize that by helping the sick, the poor, the disadvantaged, we make our country better. We realize that ALL people deserve educations, health care, jobs, etc.

Jesus didn't hang with the rich people, the haves. Jesus went to the prostitutes, the tax collectors, the poor, the sick.

And now this administration wants to tell the church en masse that it can't decide for itself to allow same sex couples to marry. Yet, where are religious leaders who should be standing up against this? They need our help.

Dispelling the myths set up by decades of conservatives that liberals hate god, hate religion, hate morality , will be hard. But if we can demonstrate what's in our hearts, many people of faith will come around.

[Loonman]

1. Right Wing did steal the Church

"Remember, Jesus loves you and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton"

[ShimokitaJer]

2. Good post

I may get ridiculed for this, but I think Bush gives us plenty of ammunition to take away the religious label from the Republicans. Pointing out numerous religious leaders' opposition to the war and the Bush administration's hypocrisy in fighting it is a start, but what we really need to do is to embrace the leading of a moral life rather than sitting in judgment on "nonbelievers."

The "who would Jesus vote for" idea is a bit simplistic, but it raises valid points about the Republicans overt displays of religiosity coupled with an insensitivity to those who are truly in need. We may never get the fundamentalists on our side, but most American religious folks are NOT fundmentalists. And most accept that church must be kept separate from state for either to be truly free to practice. We need to stop being afraid to appeal to those people.

There's another great thread that relates to this issue, on framing the debate. It links to the buzzflash interview here:
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/01/int04003.html

[Hep]

3. That's a great interview.

Thanks! And you are right about fundamentalists.

[Cannikin]

4. Here's a FANTASTIC source for those of us...

Who have'nt memorized the bible or the verses the RW likes to use as weapons of control.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[beyurslf]

5. It isn't that liberal hate religion

it's that we accept those who do hate religion. Being liberal just means you're open to other's ideas. We accept Christian, Muslims, Atheist, Jews, Buddhist, etc. It's all good.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. not true

a true liberal doesn't accept anybody who hates anything. To categorize an atheist as somebody who hates religion is not accurate.

a true liberal is tolerant above all else, and shuns hatred in all of its forms.

[Hep]

7. However

many people don't know what words like atheist and agnostic really mean. They often use the term atheist to describe themselves wrongly. But for the most part, I agree with what you are saying.

I guess it would have been safer for me to say that the right wing's stealing of religion has resulted in a disdain or scorn for organized religion among many young people.

I lost my faith when a leder in my church told me that gandhi is in hell.

[spindoctor]

8. It's like categorizing a vegetarian as somebody who hates plants

Just thought that was funny ;)

[ShimokitaJer]

9. If vegetarians like animals so much...

then why do they eat all their food.

Completely OT, but I thought it was funny

[YNGW]

10. The Christians I know...

... who were former Democrats who now vote for the R's tell me they left over moral issues; namely abortion and homosexuality, which they believe are doctrinally wrong. It's hard to argue with people's moral convictions, and I don't and won't even try. That's a private matter between them and their God. As far as helping the old, poor and disadvantaged, many churches have outreach programs, etc... which do that, so we can see that they want the same things we do in many respects and there is that connection to be made. But, as long as these "moral shortcomings" (as they see it) remain a part of the Democratic party platform, these people are not going to budge, I feel sure of that.

[Hep]

11. Right, but the argument to be made is

to let GOD judge the homosexuals and the pro-choice people. One of the most prevalent comments I hear is, "I don't care what they do at home, BUT..." And the response is, "Do you think the government has the right to tell the church what is right and what is wrong?"

I think the argument that Bush is worse for the church than ANY dem is a strong one, and an assertion that can be demonstrated. But you're right. Abortion ond gays. BIG issues. Nut IMO, not bigger thanthe economy, education, and the war.

Interestingtimes, and fortunately there is SOME reason to feel good about our chances.

[YNGW]

13. And the argument back is...

... that God has already judged it to be a sin. And they want nothing to do with a political party who looks the other way.

Most Christinas will tell you they can live under any type of economy, whether it be capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, or any other "ism". They lived under the Roman Empire trying to hunt them down and kill them, for gosh sakes. They'll tell you that God will provide for those who are faithful to him. They'll show you where God ordered the Israelites to go to war to take what would become Israel. But, they've told me they cannot and will not vote for a party who upholds what they consider to be sin as stated in their holy scriptures. That's where the rub will remain.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

17. As a Christian, please don't pigeonhole us

or speak for us.

Thanks.

[ShimokitaJer]

12. This isn't about making the Democratic platform more "morally palatable"

It's about reversing the image of the Republican party as strong on "family values," and "morality." The GOP have done a good job of focusing on precisely those issues you talk about, and that is why they spring to mind when we think of morality. In fact, the Republican party is browbeating religious groups who accept homosexuality and gay marriage. They aren't responding to religious trends; they are attempting to define them. We can never win by responding to the issue the GOP wants to define as moral.

We can change the terms of debate, defining moral behavior as guaranteeing all citizens affordable health care, a living wage, and protection for their beliefs. There is far more connection between religion and caring for the poor and the ill than there is with rejection of homosexuality.

[YNGW]

14. Some things to consider

>In fact, the Republican party is browbeating religious groups who accept homosexuality and gay marriage.

I've never heard those I know frame the conversation on what the Repugs are trying to do. The religious groups that are more accepting are being shunned by the others based upon differences in religious doctrine from all I can see.

>We can change the terms of debate, defining moral behavior as guaranteeing all citizens affordable health care, a living wage, and protection for their beliefs.

Here's the problem, there's nothing in their Bible which says that government is supposed to provide these things, it just tells them that governments are there because they serve the purposes of God to keep order. Christians see helping their fellowman as a personal, individual endeavor, not as something that is the responsibility of the government. That and the "morals" issue is where we lose and have lost a lot of fromer Democrats.

>There is far more connection between religion and caring for the poor and the ill than there is with rejection of homosexuality.

I can't say I am aware of any Christians who will discard or ignore what they believe to be sin in exchange for caring for the poor. I think they see both as equally important and expected from their God.

But, this is all from my own observations and conversations with my friends who are more religious.

[bobbieinok]

15. and the Catholic church agrees with the democratic party on

many of these issues.

HOWEVER<

The right wing American catholics had a fit when the Pope spoke on the problems with 'pure capitalism' and against the death penalty and against the Iraq war.

Especially on the issues of social justice, it seems the right wing American catholics screamed loudly enough that the church has muted many of the American bishops and cardinals.

During the 80s and maybe to 94 or so every once in a while the Am catholic leaders would come out with a very progressive social justice statement and people like Bennet and Simon and others would scream about it.

I remember a council of Bishops statement sometime in the early 90s that listed the republican proposed legislation and pointed out how it contradicted catholic teaching.

[ShimokitaJer]

16. Exactly

If these right wing American catholics are not drawing their ideals from the Catholic church, then where do you suppose they are getting them? The political right wing has encouraged a very specific and targeted interpretation of certain religious tenets and certain Biblical passages to support their agenda. We will never win these people over by denying the Bible, since that is still the ultimate authority they claim to follow (albeit selectively). But we can point out the contradictions between the Republican supposed morality and the morality of the church.