U.S. Forces Meet Fierce Resistance In Fallujah - WaPo

[TacticalPeek]

washingtonpost.com

U.S. Forces Meet Fierce Resistance In Fallujah
Push South Greeted By 'Hornets' Nest'

By Jackie Spinner and Karl Vick
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, November 13, 2004; Page A01

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 12 -- Insurgents in trenches met advancing U.S. and Iraqi forces in southern Fallujah with a burst of bullets and rockets Friday in what commanders described as one of the fiercest days of fighting since the battle to retake the city began five days ago.

Marines and soldiers said they encountered guerrillas dug into traditional defensive positions from which they could pop up, shoot and quickly take cover. The Americans said they and their Iraqi allies fought back with rifles, automatic weapons, belt-fed machine guns, mortars and hand grenades.

"It was a hornets' nest," said Capt. Erik Krivda, of Gaithersburg, the officer in charge of the Army's 1st Infantry Division Task Force 2-2 tactical operations command center.

Military officials also reported that fighting had resumed Thursday night in Fallujah's Jolan neighborhood, an insurgent stronghold in the city's northwest. Elsewhere in Iraq, intense fighting continued for a third day in the northern city of Mosul and other flash points in Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A45043-2004Nov12?language=printer

[Downtown Hound]

1. Have we freed the Iraqis yet?

[zmdem]

6. Yep, now we need to defend it

The Iraqis deserve the right to create their own government and society, just as we do, and take for granted. If we fail, what sort of society would the insurgents offer Iraq ?

[Downtown Hound]

7. This is freedom?

You've gotta be kidding me. I don't know what kind of society the insurgents will create, but I think that's really up to them. It's their fucking country. There's no "if we fail." WE HAVE FAILED. There is no way in hell we're ever going to win there. The sooner we leave the better for everyone.

[zmdem]

16. It's the Insurgent's country ?

God help the Iraqis if that is the case

[Zhade]

30. The insurgents ARE the Iraqis. Sheesh.

Don't you prefer reality over Centcom press releases?

[zmdem]

31. Do you really think

that the majority of the Iraqis want the insurgents to win, and create a new government for the country ?

[DannyRed]

33. Yup.

I do think so.

Read the reports from Iraqis writing from Baghdad, Fallujah, Mosul, Basra.

Iraqis that USED to be at least somewhat hopeful and supportive of the US, Iraqis that HATED Saddam and were glad that we ousted him...those Iraqis now hate the US, want us gone, and support the Insurgency to some degree or other.

If the majority of Iraqis supported the US, there would BE NO INSURGENCY...they would have nowhere to hide, to rest, no sources of support or intelligence or resupply.

That is the very backbone of any insurgency or guerrilla war - the support of the populace.

Consider the fate of Che Guevara - when he engaged in insurgency tactics in areas where his fighters had popular support, he was successful (Cuba, Angola, etc). When he engaged in similar tactics in places where the populace opposed him, his movement was smashed, he was captured and killed.

Consider Sindara Luminoso - the instant that they lost popular support, they were essentially eliminated as a political, military, or social force.

The evidence is overwhelming: insurgencies lacking popular support are crushed, quickly.

That this insurgency is not only NOT crushed, but is growing and increasing in strength, numbers, areal extent, and capabilities is sound, strong evidence that they DO, in fact, have popular support.

But then, I am not expecting logic or history to play a large role in your writing at this point, Zell Miller Democrat.

Sheesh, can't someone tombstone this dumbfuck traitor already?

[Sterling]

47. If we had the support of the people of Iraq the Iraq Army would

have 1 million men and THEY would be fighting the "insurgents". In fact more often than not when we try to arm the Iraqis they take our weapons and join the insurgents.

Where have you been anyway?

[Downtown Hound]

44. Could you be a little more stupid?

They were born there. They live there. They are Iraqis. YES IT IS THEIR COUNTRY! God the fact that you would even say that, I mean, what is wrong with you? Seriously?

[DannyRed]

8. Considering that

the vast majority of insurgents ARE Iraqis, and that the vast majority of Iraqis are now solidly AGAINST continued US presence....

Perhaps you ought to take your ignorant imperial arrogance and shove it directly up your ass?

THanks, Have a nice day.

[zmdem]

17. Please consider this

The majority of Iraqis may be against our occupation, but do you really think they prefer the alternative ? That is the rule of shadowdy militant groups, who have no qualms with murdering ordinary Iraqis.

[DannyRed]

19. Who put those

"shadowy militant" groups into a position of such power, who freed them from all restraint, who left tons of explosives and millions of weapons lying around for them to use for mayhem?

Who keeps those "shadowy militants" supplied with food, water, shelter, transportation, cover, and protection?

You are, sorry to say it so bluntly, full of shit.

Who makes up those "shadowy militant" groups?

Who keeps joining them in ever larger numbers?

Why are they able to commit murder and mayhem in broad daylight, in full view of the eyes of the locals?

Because they have the support, tacit, explicity, and complicit support, of the majority of the Iraqi population.

They may NOT have had that support in May...but after the chain of fuckups, murders, tortures, theiveries, incompetencies, and idiocies perpetrated by the US gov't, they DO have it now.

And there is NO WAY to turn the clock back.

As for "no qualms about murdering ordinary Iraqis" - that goes for both sides, methinks...and if you think it does not, again, go fuck yourself.

[zmdem]

22. They did

Every person is responsible for his own actions. That they commit murder and mayhem in broad daylight is a reflection on their morality, and no one else's.

As to the deaths, our enemies specifically target civilians, for us we go to extraordinary lengths to avoid it. If we didn't, Iraq would be a parking lot.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zmdem]

28. Since I am garbage

I guess there is no reason for me to respond to your rational argument. Please excuse me while I crawl into a dumpster and commit suicide.

[DannyRed]

32. Considering that

you haven't yet responded rationally to any points raised, considering that you ignore and bypass all the points made by myself and other posters that factually and logically counter your "arguments", considering that your argument is entirely based on false premises, strawment, and blatant disregard for the truth and the facts on the ground...

Well, let's just say that I am not particularly shocked or hurt that you are offended.

Also, considering that your handle, zmdem, is presumably referring to Zell Miller Democrat, let's just say that "garbage" is pretty mild compared to what could be said.

Have fun in the dumpster.

[pokercat999]

39. First thing you've written that makes sense.

[Downtown Hound]

45. Bye bye!

Make sure you do it in a way that's efficient and gets the job done.

[Sterling]

49. dont kill yourself!!!!

We need people like you to go to Iraq and fight for freedom. What a waste if you just off yourself. Bush requires more human sacrifice and you will just let him do without your support in a selfish act of despiration?

[zmdem]

50. Thanks for the concern

As to my joining the military and going to Iraq, I'm a bit old, I don't think they'd take me.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. "no qualms with murdering ordinary Iraqis"

War Has Killed 100,000 Iraqis

100,000

Do you feel a qualm coming on?

[zmdem]

29. No,

I don't feel a qualm coming on.

[DannyRed]

34. Perhaps

because you are a smug, irrational, bigoted piece of trash, just ike your hero, Zell Miller...hence your handle, ZMDEM.

[qazplm]

35. i think they prefer the killing to stop

and some stability to be returned, and they probably dont care WHO does it.

[atreides1]

42. As Opposed

To the rule of a Saddam clone, another US puppet, and from what we've seen so far the US doesn't seem to have many qualms about killing ordinary Iraqis either.

Only the US calls it collateral damage, the result of "precision" bombing of kebab restaurants.

[Clarkie1]

12. This war is not ours to win or lose

Failure or success is not up to us, it is up to the Iraqis.

We can't force democracy through the barrel of a gun.

[zmdem]

18. True, but

we can help them

[qazplm]

36. can we?

I dont know about that. Seems democracy is something that requires you to kinda do it yourself...THEY need to do the heavy lifting on this, our HELP isnt going to be very productive in the end, its more counter-productive than helpful.

As long as we are there, terrorists will be there, as long as terrorists are there Iraq will be unstable, we leave, what purpose do most of those terrorists have to stay there?

Yeah maybe we are "fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them over here", which is a poor concept but lets assume its true for a moment, the reality then is that we are fighting them over there, with the there being the Iraqi's front lawn.

Kinda hard to have both concepts be right in that we are somehow helping the Iraqis while we use them as a killing field for terrorists.

[tlcandie]

13. Yes, we're using phosphorous now .. it helps a lot ...

:cry:

http://www.democracynow.org/

<snip>
Resistance Claims U.S. Is Using Chemical Weapons
<snip>

Couldn't find more about this on the site. It was on the news program today with talks of people's skin falling off from burns.

Edited to add: Doctors are reporting the melting of the skin conditions.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

15. How about "depleted uranium"?

There's a very good, bloodcurdling article in the latest Vanity Fair about our government using bullets made of depleted uranium, going back to the first Gulf War. Theories are holding up that the Gulf War Syndrome sicknesses seen in the veterans of the 1991 war are caused by their exposure to this stuff.

Did you know that 1/3 of all soldiers who served in the 1991 war are on medical disability?

It's deadly, causing all kinds of horrible symptoms, but also damage to unborn children. Frida Berrigan, daughter of Phillip Berrigan, did a study on this that was released two years ago.

But, boy, do those depleted uranium bullets penetrate! They're on fire even before they hit their target.

Two years ago, they were classified as Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We're still using them in Iraq.

Can you say "How's THAT for irony"?

[Briar]

37. No - some are still alive n/t

[byronm]

2. just don't know what to say anymore

...

[Zynx]

3. Man, this is a bloody fight

Over 200 US casualties (dead and badly wounded) and that's with a long as hell lag on reporting losses, and so probably doesn't include Thursday and certainly doesn't include anything they ran into today.

[Downtown Hound]

4. Hey no need to dwell on these unpleasant matters...

Scott Peterson was found GUILTY! Turn on your TV's! It's all over the news!

[jobycom]

5. Remember the Alamo? Thermopolyae?

Every day they hold us off just emboldens and angers the rest of the nation. This has got to be the stupidest leadership of a war effort since Santa Anna. If Bush isn't imprisoned for war crimes, he ought to be imprisoned for bad leadership.

[Clarkie1]

9. The makers of this war are operating on the faulty premise that there is

an enemy that can be destroyed. In reality, all we are doing is making more enemies. And it is clear from this article that it is becoming increasingly difficult to define who the enemy is and isn't.

[alittlelark]

10. Remember the beginning of Vietnam?

[heyphillip]

11. Fierce fighting

And the damn media keeps telling us every day that we are in control of Fallujah and there are only pockets of resistance left. i think it's a lot worst than they are telling us. i think the insurgents are giving them one hell of a fight remember this is THERE country not ours so they are fighting for something i don't think at this point the soldiers do not know why they are fighting in Iraq.

[tlcandie]

14. Here's a DemocracyNOW! today report on happenings...

This man has been in touch daily with people in Iraq...

<snip>
DAHR JAMAIL: It is continuing chaos and violence in Baghdad. Actually, just as of last night, several large areas of the city have been taken over by the Iraqi resistance and they remain so today. These are the areas of Aldora, Al-Amaria, and Abu Ghraib although right now there's extremely heavy fighting in the Al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad as well. Before I continue further, I just want to remind everyone that while we're watching these things happen in Fallujah, and the more escalated violence around Baghdad, all of this is occurring against a backdrop of infrastructure that looks like horrendous continuing water and electricity situations here. For example, where I live in central Baghdad, it's supposedly gets some of the better electricity in the city, and we've been getting about ten hours per day here. Unemployment in Iraq remains around 70%, with really no hope of that changing anytime soon, as well. But people here in Baghdad on top of what I just mentioned, as well as the events of Fallujah, are continuing to get angrier every single day. The green zone nearby me continues to take mortar rounds on a daily basis. Just down the street from my hotel, earlier there was an improvised explosive device that went off by a United States patrol, and then just a few moments ago actually, several large blasts went off again nearby. As I said before, there's been very heavy fighting in the Al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad. What happened, there was a car bomb. It was found by Iraqi police who showed up to warn people and then several U.S. military vehicles arrived, and shortly thereafter, they began getting hit with rocket propelled grenades. Heavy fighting broke out. Several soldiers were wounded and taken away. The fighting went on for at least half an hour. And then later this afternoon, the area is being buzzed by F-16 fighter jets that are terrorizing residents in the area. Also over there, the U.S. base continues to get bombed on a nightly basis as it has for several weeks in a row. Also, another important event that occurred in Baghdad today, there was a very huge demonstration. Well over 5,000 followers of the Islamic party at the Imam-Alham mosque here in Baghdad. They were denouncing so-called Prime minister Iyad Allawi and calling for Jihad. They demonstrated to show that they're not afraid of the U.S. military, that Iyad Allawi was a traitor and should be removed as quickly as possible. They were also demonstrating to support the resistance fighters in Fallujah. So, those are just some of the highlights from what's going on in Baghdad today.
<snip>

Person speaking is: AMY GOODMAN: We're going to try to reach unembedded reporter in Baghdad in the Iraqi capital, independent journalist, Dahr Jamail, one of the few unembedded journalists there. I think we have managed to get through to him. Dahr Jamail, welcome to Democracy Now!.
More: * Dahr Jamail, an independent journalist currently based in Baghdad. He is one of the only independent, unembedded journalists in Iraq right now. He publishes his reports on a blog called DahrJamailIraq.com.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/12/1518251

[teryang]

20. Commander reports only 4 more dead GIs in Fallujah?

<Lt. Gen. John Sattler, the Marine commander in Iraq, said 22 U.S. troops have been killed and more than 170 seriously wounded in and around Fallujah since the offensive began Monday night. Another 490 troops suffered wounds but were able to return to duty, he said.

In addition, Sattler said, five members of the Iraqi security forces have been killed and 40 wounded. <snip>

Iraq security forces equals Kurds.

[Zynx]

21. Lags at least 36 hours

The fight mentioned was on Friday. Casualties will probably come out late Saturday US time.

Note that as of now (12:16 AM CST), icasualties.org has a very truncated list for the 11th and nothing at all from the 12th. The 10th is also a bit lighter than the 9th, while it should have more Fallujah casualties than it does.

[ElectroPrincess]

23. Here's some AP photos dated 12 Nov 04

Give link vice post for obvious reasons (horrible images)

cryptome.org/fallujah-kill6.jpg

On edit: darn sorry link above just add the http://

[teryang]

27. Icasualties went up by 17 GI deaths

during the same time sequence.

[teryang]

38. I casuality American dead toll now up 35 since this report

Amazing how fast it goes up after the Friday night 6 oclock news.

[Zynx]

46. Look for another spike late today-early Sunday

There is still only one dead listed from November 12th.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. "Maybe you'll hear about me when you watch the evening news"

Fallujah
David Rovics

Maybe you'll hear about me
When you watch the evening news
So I write this letter for you, my friends
The truth then you may choose
I had a good time at Oxford
And the world I did roam
When my studies were finished
Then I went back home

All I wanted were good things
Land and liberty
And all the sorts of things we learned
At the university
I'm not a fan of dictatorships
I'd rather say live and let live
But for those who would threaten my family
There's nothing I won't give

(Chorus)
I will fight for my country
I'll defend this land
I will stare at the whites of your soldiers' eyes
With this Kalishnikov in my hand

When you break down the doors of my neighbors
When you say that might makes right
When you say you're looking for terrorists
In their bedroom late at night
When you torture my brother at gunpoint
On his head a canvass sack
All I can say to you, soldier
Is you'd best watch your back

When you come with your tanks on our city streets
And you say these streets are yours
When you say you'll rebuild us with bombers
And oil tankers on our shores
When you have gunned down my child in Fallujah
You needn't wonder why
I look at you through the blades of your 'copter and say
It's a good day to die

http://www.soundclick.com/pro/default.cfm?BandID=111310&content=lyrics&SongID=1241327

[leftchick]

41. that is a very powerful photo....

says it all...

[Domitan]

40. So much for finishing this in 48 hours

It was Wednesday or maybe early Thursday when the military officials declared that the city would be captured in 48 hours. Tsk, a bit longer, hmm...

[Tight_rope]

43. "Meet Fierce Resistance"? Damn, what happened to the flowers & kisses!

[deadparrot]

48. This is sick. I can barely bear to read this stuff anymore.

[Angelique]

51. U.S. Forces Meet Fierce Resistance In Fallujah ,.. DUH!

Who was it that thought they wouldn't?