American Marines attack Fallujah

[everythingsxen]

American troops have begun attacking the Iraqi city of Fallujah, the operation which required the Black Watch to be redeployed.

On Thursday, just days after the regiment moved from its base in Basra, three soldiers were killed in a suicide bombing. The operation came on the day Prince Charles visited troops' families in Wiltshire.

During the night American Marines, backed up by troops of the Iraqi Army, began their operation.

The city of Fallujah is said to be the home of the insurgents behind the recent wave of kidnappings, beheadings and suicide bombings.

Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented:
"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."

**SNIP**

God in heaven - Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset = translation: "Kill them all. God will know his own."

Dante Zappala, a soldier's brother, said: "Violence breeds more violence, like the Black Watch saw this week. This will result in more tragic deaths."

Mahmood Al-Sabbagh, an Iraqi Refugee commented: "Fallujah will be like Glasgow if there were invaders here, as if Hitler had come here in World War II. It is exactly the same."

More: http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=5674

[kwolf68]

1. War with Satan

What the hell is our military teaching our leaders? This IS a freaking Holy War. OMG.

[TahitiNut]

29. Satan is the fallen angel ... the angel who refused to love human beings

... as God's children because Satan "loved only God". For this, Satan was banished from God's sight, thus denied God's presence: That which Satan "loved only" - and that's called "Hell": deprived of the only object of one's love.

Sometimes myth carries lessons that we can see have not been learned - truths denied by the Lord of Lies, Deceiver, Beelzebub.

Some would describe the "Anti-Christ" as one recapitulating the myth of Satan ... one who'd wipe out humanity (God's children) in retaliation for Satan's banishment, deludedly believing that they would not then "compete" for Satan's love of God.

It is only these who could possibly believe in War as a Worship Service ... and battle as a Sacrament.

Perverts.

[xxqqqzme]

47. 'yellow rogue's god demands

human sacrifice. Fallujah chosen to satisfy demand.'

That's the true headline for these unholy moral mavens on the racist right.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Shit!!!

Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented:
"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."

:scared:

A complete psycho...

[ladjf]

8. Who is the hell is Satan? How many bullets and lives will it take

to kill him?

Actually, who , if anyone, is waiting in Fallujha to fight back against our massed, heavily armed troops? A few hundred ragtag,
resistance fighters who are getting ready to be slaughtered. Why?
Because in their minds, they are doing the same thing George Washington's troops were doing, fighting for their right to have a country.

I'm afraid America has truly become a Country that is dominated by
sadistic and greedy morons.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aneerkoinos]

44. Hey, today

US suffered at least 26 casualties in wounded, and it has not even really started yet...

[ladjf]

54. But, whose fault is that? Why are we attacking Iraqi in the first

place?

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

53. They have no armor, just small arms stuff.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. There might be thousands of them hiding in Falluja. But if they are, they will all be killed or captured. I certainly don't want any of our people to be injured or killed. That's why I want them to come home and leave the Iraqis alone. If we announced that we are pulling out militarily and left the Iraqis to their own devices, they would still have problems but would work out something better than what is happening now. The big question, of course, is who is going to be in charge of the oil. Its so valuable that we are afraid to let go of it. And if we did, who would we turn it over to? You will recall that it was the American gvt. that put Saddam in power to help us keep control of the oil. It's a complicated situation, made worse by Bush's blundering.

[0rganism]

55. I suspect we'll be finding more of the HMX waiting there, too

Every road is going to be mined to all hell. Entire buildings will be rigged for spontaneous demolitions. This is not going to be a picnic basket operation.

[Poor Richard Lex]

86. what are you saying??

you want to see 10k US troops get killed?

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nayt]

94. did i read your post correctly?

you hope 10000 american troops die?

[savistocate]

97. I did not read any hope in that post

only that we know the incompetence rush to take Oil Ministry seize all data. those tons of explosives were taken.

[BBG]

98. Why the Men Stayed?

Beause they weren't being allowed to leave. The flyers instructed women and children to flee. The men are to be slaughtered as only America can slaughter, with extreme efficiency.

To be an American in good conscience is to be filled with self-loathing. We are so fucked.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pachamama]

111. What kind of sick post is that? How dare you "wish" for anybody, our

troops or others die? But even the mere suggestion that you think our troops (10,000 in fact) die is sick and frankly in my opinion earns you the FastTrack to permanent removal off the DU...

:grr:

[liberalmuse]

56. 'Satan' is a five year old little girl...

who got run down by one of our tanks. He's the old man who didn't dodge an rpg fast enough. He's the just-married young girl who will be ripped to pieces on the streets with our gunships. He's the pregnant woman who was blown to bits with a cluster bomb. He's the baby that was crushed by falling debris. THIS is who fucking 'Satan' is.

[daleo]

52. Find Satan, and leave the people alone

He is supposed to look kind of like a goat, I hear.

[wildwww2]

90. I hear Satan looks like a chimp and is squatting in Al Gore`s White House!

Or so I`ve heard. Makes sense. If I am to judge by the "miserable failure`s" actions. He kills children for WMDs that we were promised we could go right to them. And a year and a half later. Still no WMDs. Bill Clinton was impeached for a hell of a lot less than that. GOPukes must not use their brains.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[mutius]

114. I know where Satan is.

In the White House, Satan comes as an angel of light. That what the Bible says. :think:

[goodboy]

3. Well, the blood of all these poor people is on Bush's hands and the

hands of all who support him.


They are reaping what they've sown

[ladjf]

11. How are we going to survive the "whirlwind"?

[everythingsxen]

16. I have some bad news...

It is on all of our hands.

Unfortunately, we are all just as guilty as our fuhrer-in-chief.

I know; a lot of people here feel they have "done all they could do", and have washed their hands of it.

I however think that part of being a liberal and social-progressive means caring about those who cannot defend themselves.

If everyone just gives up and says "Well it's not my problem...", then I tell you what, you explain that to that nice news-crew 30 years from now. Tell them how Bush had this "strange charisma" and how you "were just swept up in the tide" and "felt helpless" because "their was nothing you could do to stop it".

Fuck that! I don't accept that crap from old Germans and noone will accept it from us!

[goodboy]

24. I haven't stopped working...but my point is, Bush and his supporters

want more war, more death, more debt, more poor.

We dont.

[everythingsxen]

30. Ok

I couldn't tell from your post if you were on the "it's not my problem" side of the field. That's why I tried to keep it impersonal and generalized.

Sorry for the confusion. :hi:

[goodboy]

67. it's all good...thanks....

[mutius]

115. Bush

Bush is a righteous man, thats what the evangelicals Nazi's say.

[cornermouse]

4. That should go over well with the rest of the Muslim world...

[JPace]

35. Yep...when we are not sexually humiliating them we are killing them

nothing like speading around furious george's freedom.

[tmooses]

5. It seems like we are becoming more like our enemies..

"the face of Satan", "our God is better than theirs" ???--I don't think you have to be Nostradamus to predict where this is going.

[Nostradamus]

39. the antichrist celebates his victory in blood

Century IX, Quatrain 76

With the repacious and bloody king,

sprung from the pallet of the inhuman Nero.

Between two rivers, the military on the left,

he will be murdered by a bald young man

[Tiberius]

43. Tell me, where is it going?

... when openly crusading, supposedly religious, "god is on our side" types lead us into a bloody battle in an Islamic country claiming that they're fighting "satan" himself?

You're right, it doesn't take Nostradamus to figure this out. If we can't take Fallujah, we will simply accelerate the killing machine at full bore. How very Christian. Fighting holy wars and crusades.

[goclark]

105. I am confused, who is Satan?

The officer needs to find his Commander In Chief and let him know that he is the very devil.

What an idiot to tell anothr country that they are Satan!!!!!

[kdmorris]

6. If I was religious

I would pray for those people in Falluja.

Man, they don't have a chance against those odds. More military might and more religious conviction, combined with an absolute disregard for human life. And 59 million Americans don't care.

Pardon me while I go throw up. It makes me sick to think of the number of people that are going to die this way over the next 4 years.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. Satan?

Colonel Gary Brandl should look in the mirror.

[ladjf]

14. A smart and ethical American President would have him

removed from command.

[saigon68]

"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's.

Lots of simple, rustic, ignorant, young men and women from Jesusland




Are about to become Shredded Hash for the Halliburton Criminals.

As they march off to the sounds of braying crowds and beating drums to "KILL the Muslim
Rag-Heads". With this tune ringing in their ears.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Refrain

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

Refrain

[VegasWolf]

9. Only Gods that look like the Gods in red states will be worshiped -

all other Gods must die like the cheap imitations they are!

[ladjf]

15. profound.

[juliagoolia]

25. This one? ROFLMAO

THIS GUY??

I got this from a REALLY RW NEOCONSERVATIVE BLOG

[VegasWolf]

28. Yes, he appears to have the appropriate anglo-saxon features. n/t

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

63. Looks kinda like Sean Connery

dont'cha think?

[Art_from_Ark]

113. "Duhbyuh... Duhbyuh... King of the 'Murikans..."

[OutsourceBush]

10. They will drop bombs for about a week, let them turn in old guns,

let them exit to other parts of Iraq, and then do it all over again in about 6 months. They gotta keep this sh*t going.

[Poll_Blind]

12. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)

How many goddamned Col. Rippers do we have in the fucking military?

Oh, and how about when the police start stomping us? Are we going to be devil-worshippers then?

PB

[Cerridwen]

13. Oh looky, the U.S. has brought back "The Crusades"

How Medieval of us. /sarcasm

Where does an inquisition occur in the timeline?


:evilfrown:

[ladjf]

17. The previous one lasted over 800 years. Let us hope that the

current one will be shorter lived.

[everythingsxen]

18. OFFICIAL NOTICE:

The "Inquisition" has been moved.

It is now located in Downtown Guantanamo Bay.

That is all.

[VegasWolf]

22. Yes, but this one is fundamently different - this one is aboult oil

instead of gold. See the difference.

[Cerridwen]

27. ROLFLMBO - Oh yeah, sorry, missed that part!

Wow, that is too funny in an amazingly painful way.

[VegasWolf]

23. Also, the new embeds will be missionaries! n/t

[TahitiNut]

58. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

The coWards hide behind the unspeakability of their plans.

It is the sheer unspeakability of Fascism in Amerika that offers them concealment.
It is the sheer unbelievability of a global Reich that provides cover for their unspeakable greed and lust for power.

[saigon68]

19. Gen Boykin's message rings clear with corrupt marine officer

Several Islamic and religious freedom groups and foreign officials criticized Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin last week when reports surfaced of his comments during several speeches at evangelical Christian churches. Boykin said the enemy in the war on terrorism was Satan, that God had put President George W. Bush in the White House and called one Muslim Somali warlord an idol-worshipper

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/19/terror/main637063.shtml





Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin has made several speeches - some in uniform - at churches in which he said the U.S. was fighting a war with Satan. (Photo: CBS)

[sadiesworld]

20. "It is Satan's..."

You couldn't make this shit up. These people are NUTS!!!!!!!!!

[Comadreja]

21. What does satan Look like?

Osama? Is he saying they all look the same? What a stupid remark. He's not the first. The General in charge of Special Ops has said something similar, but I can't remember his name. He was in command in Somalia. No surprise this remark was made after the election and it became clear who the supporters are.

[Daisey Mae]

26. This is Insane......BUSH is to blame for the HELL HE IS CAUSING....

Insanity is defined by repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome.... Therefore, insanity must be defined by not recognizing your own mistakes......like the "AWOL monkey-boy" admits to....and that shows how insane this country's leadership will be until we are punished by the rest of the world for crazy aggressive actions reminiscent of NAZI GERMANY.....And as Osama bin Laden said in his video before this election ......"All aggressive actions toward innocent Muslims WILL BE PUNISHED".... If Condsleeza Rice could get her head out of her ass for a minute maybe she could hear that warning....It was said in loud plain language just like it was before 9/11- "Bin laden to stage a direct attack on US"......These Keystone cops are too busy enjoying killing people and stealing everything from every body.....When they run out of Muslim's to KILL...WE WILL BE NEXT.....and Fallujah will be BUSH'S WATERLOO.........

[PROGRESSIVE1]

31. 59,000,000 Americans voted for a Nazi to commit Genocide.

What does that say about us as a nation?

:puke:

:cry:

[Bonobo]

32. You know what? I don't support them in the least.

If a US victory means more dead innocents, I would rather see them fail. I guess I'm not a patriot, huh? Maybe I should be arrested. Maybe I will be.

[everythingsxen]

34. It's worse that that I am afraid...

I understand where you are coming from, but our troops dying is just as bad as the civilians dying.

Even worse, I worry about these poor soldiers coming home and going crazy. Driven mad by the horror of the things they were ordered to do.

[Bonobo]

36. Why is our troops dying equally bad? They are the aggressors, the invaders

The civilians are innocents in their own land.

[everythingsxen]

38. Because soldiers do what they are told

They believe their commanders.

That is what they are supposed to do.

If their commander tells them that a town is full of evil-doers who are planning to bomb their hometown, how do they know any better? It's not like they can just hop onto DU and go "Oh! d00d this is fuxxored man!!11".

The soldiers are, to a certain degree, just as much victims. They are going to have to live the rest of their days with the memory of these atrocities. It will haunt them every day of their life and most likely every day of their next 5 lifetimes.

[Hog lover]

60. Yes, and remember most of our military are young and ignorant

I imagine that being in the military (with its automatic risk to your own life) was the best option most of them had. Promises of seeing the world, money for education, retirement pay if you make it a career.

They did not make the decision to kill, so let's not blame the troops or call them evil.

[NorthernSpy]

70. but would we take this attitude if WE were invaded?

Would we be huddled in our bomb shelters saying, "oh, well. They're young and ignorant. They can't help killing us. They're not to blame."

Somehow I doubt it.

[Hog lover]

71. Certainly you cannot blame the Iraqis for resisting

What I am saying is that we at DU should not blame the enlisted men and women of the US military. Only the Fascist Bush administration and decision-makers in the military and Pentagon are to blame for US military actions.

[NorthernSpy]

74. but isn't that just kind of an amoral dodge?

Again, if we were under invasion, would we be huddled in our bomb shelters saying, "it's fine that the citizens of this invading country continue to support their troops. We won't count that attitude as aggression against us. Those people haven't wronged us a bit when they choose to stand by their soldiers, who are, of course, killing more of us even as we speak."


And again, I really, really doubt it.


I greatly fear that there's a lot of amoral tribalism mixed into this unconditional "support the troops" mindset.

[Hog lover]

99. The meaning I put on "support our troops" is NOT to support the war itself

but to support the troops individually, as human beings who are caught in a terrible situation. What choices do the low-ranking troops have in this war? Can they realistically refuse to comply with orders - yes, if they want to be court-martialled or worse.

There are two issues: What is a reasonable response to our aggression if you are an Iraqi? What should our attitudes as US citizens be toward the Iraqi resistance?

Ya dig?

[alevensalor]

84. Agreed.

We would kill them to a man if they invaded us the way we invaded them, and no one here can doubt that in the least. We would have no respect for the fact that they were operating under orders.

That's not good enough.

~A!

[mike_c]

91. I'll call them evil, murderous bastards....

Over 100,000 Iraqi civilians already killed, another 40,000-50,000 trapped in Falluja waiting to be put down. This is NOT the work of innocent and ignorant children. The U.S. Marines are a very professional, well trained military force. They are not a mob. They know exactly what they are doing, and they're doing it anyway. I call that cold blooded murder.

"They did not make the decision to kill...."

Are you suggesting that they are being driven to kill civilians against their will? Against their better judgement? Against their wishes? I don't believe that for a moment. Not any longer.

[Violet_Crumble]

101. They're just following orders. How do they know any better?

That same weak argument could have been used to exonerate all but the leadership of the Nazi military. As was proven after WWII, 'just following orders' doesn't cut it as an excuse...

To suggest that US troops are just as much victims as the Iraqi CIVILIANS they're slaughtering is ridiculous. Here's a big whopping clue that they're not just as much victims - US troops are COMBATANTS and therefore legitimate targets for resistance. Iraqi civilians are NON-COMBATANTS and are supposed to be protected under the Geneva Conventions. Why do you even think that US troops are just as much victims? Because they're US citizens? Why should anyone, let alone those of us who aren't Americans, give a shit about that?

Sorry, but I don't support US troops in Iraq, and my time is much better spent feeling for the Iraqi people, some of who thanks to the US military's habit of bombing civilians, won't ever live to have anything haunt them...

Violet...

[nookiemonster]

102. Well put!

Unfortunate, but true. Our troops are merely pawns on a chessboard.

Please don't blame the troops. Please.

[jcappy]

45. good question!!! n/t

[Lizzie Borden]

82. Here we go...

the Vietnam dilema again.

[aquart]

33. Satan?????

General, you're murdering the citizens of the town you supposedly invaded to protect.

Oh, and it won't pacify the other towns. But you're prepared to level them all, ain'tcha? Burn the body to save the soul?

[JPace]

37. This is republican power without restraint.....

now they can kill with fury and might and not have
to worry about re-elections.

Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill

[puddycat]

41. Everyone re-read this quote

Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented:
"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."
------------------------------

The military is fully backing this genocidal action in Iraq. We have morphed into Hitler's Germany.

[TheKingfish]

42. Satan has IED's too and maybe this nut will hit one n/t

[saigon68]

68. I don't wish they kill him (the nut case colonel)

But I won't feel sad if they do.

what a Crazy Fucking Individual.

[VegasWolf]

46. Satan wears a turban to hide his horns, ergo, ... n/t

[HR_Pufnstuf]

48. Thou Shall Not Kill

Unless you're not Christian.

[jpak]

49. Well I guess I won't be donating to "Toys For Tots" this year

n/t

[lumpy]

50. Satan is just a name for greed/power,

killing, ravaging and subjegating people. Who is the Satan here? Those that refuse to face the truth about the evil Satan sitting in the WH and pseudo Christians who applaud killing their religious adversaries? Caesar lives. Some things never change.

[Q]

51. Well...if they call them SATAN

...they don't have to think of them as HUMAN BEINGS.

[Chicago Democrat]

57. This is the end

This is the end..Beautiful friend...
This is the end... My only friend..The End

Of our elaborate plans.. The End..

Of everything that stands....The End...

No Safety or surprise... The End...

I'll never look into your eyes....again...

Can you you picture what will be?
So limitless and free
Desperately in need of some stranger's hand
in a desperate land.

Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain,
and all the children are insane.
All the children are insane
waiting for the summer rain.

The West is the best
The West is the best
The West is the best

Get here... and we'll do the rest.


The blue bus is calling us...
Driver where you taking us?

The killer awoke before dawn.
He put his boots on.
He took a face from the ancient gallery,
and he walked on down the hall!

[cubsfan forever]

59. I love The Doors!

Didn't they use this in the movie Apocalypse Now?

Professor 2

[VegasWolf]

61. That's good. How about Apocalypse Fallujah!

[cubsfan forever]

62. Sounds like that is what's happening n/t

Professor 2

[anarchy1999]

64. This is not real.

"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."

Please God, this can't be happening.

on edit: Who are these sick people? I know them not.

[Zero Gravitas]

65. Bring it on

We voted with the majority in 2000.
We spoke out against Bush's war in Iraq.
We voted for Kerry in 2004.

Now they must live the consequences of ignoring what we said. Let them do it, we can't stop them, but at least we tried. The blood is not our hands, it is on the hands of the loony neo-cons and the fundies.

[Darranar]

66. And so the slaughter begins. n/t

[Moderate Dem]

69. A lot of Democrats

either supported the Iraq War, or at least saw a sound geopolitical strategy to justify it (democracy in the Middle East, a country not at war with Israel). We may think that Bush completely fucked up almost every single aspect of it, but millions of us supported the idea, at least if it could have been done more competently.

[NorthernSpy]

72. a hundred thousand people are dead because of people like you

That is the literal truth, and I'm not going to soft-peddle it. Competent aggression is no more excusable than incompetent aggression.

The fact that someone else bungled your despicable war does not excuse you from blame in the least.

[Moderate Dem]

73. Welcome to the real world...

Did I say that I LIKED war? I wish we hadn't gone there under those circumstances, just like John Kerry and MILLIONS of other Democrats, but that doesn't make us any less Democrat. I am merely pointing out that millions of Democrats, including John Kerry, sopported the Iraq War, at least in some fashion.

Let me ask you this. Did you feel the same way about our invasion of Afghanistan?

[NorthernSpy]

75. I've never seen anything that remotely suggested...

... that the invasion of Afghanistan did less harm than good.

I think that we got off on the wrong foot from the first. In my judgement, both of these wars have primarily fulfilled America's own psychological needs. I seriously doubt that the first one made us safer, and I'm certain that the second one did not.

And I didn't say that supporting aggression against Iraq made you less of a Democrat. I said that it made you blameworthy. And so it does.


(edit: fixed typo)

[Moderate Dem]

76. I'll just have to learn to live with my shame then...

But seriously, whether you supported the Iraq War or not, it's hard for me to understand anyone who didn't support the Afghanistan War. I have rarely seen a better reason to remove a foreign government than giving aid and comfort to an organization that killed thousands of our men, women and children, and then JOKED about it. And that doesn't even count their treatment of women. But that's just me I guess.

Anyway, I hope you know that I do respect your position, OK?

[DrWeird]

79. Yeah, that War in Afghanistan was real successful, wasn't it?

We got Osama bin Laden and we didn't blow up a single Red Cross station, or wedding, or baby.

[NorthernSpy]

81. aw, hell...

I consider myself morally compromised for supporting Kerry, despite knowing that he'd voted to give chimpy free rein in Iraq. For a while, I wasn't sure whether I could vote for him. One DUer persuaded me, though, that as the quagmire deepened, Kerry would be more likely to put together a plausible pretext for getting out, whereas Bush would be more likely to order saturation bombing of the cities -- so I went ahead and gave Kerry my vote.

There's always plenty of shame to go around.

[mike_c]

95. the attack on Afghanistan was a terrible mistake....

Most of the individuals associated with the 9-11 attacks escaped, all but a very few of the people killed had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with terrorism-- they were either noncombatants or civilians fighting yet another foreign invader that they had done nothing to deserve, the country was shattered, the Northern Alliance-- the folks we armed al-Qeada to fight during the 80's-- carved Afghanistan into fiefdoms dominated by feudal warlords, and we installed a puppet president who continues to breathe only as long as we protect him and he stays inside the gates of Kabul.

Okay, it wasn't all bad news-- we got to try out some spiffy new weapons on warm, splattery people, the opium business is booming, and Amerikans got a collective revenge rush, inconveniently directed mostly at innocents, but who's counting at this point?

[TheKingfish]

77. Sound geopolitical stategy?

hahaha yea make sure we get democracies in the countries where the governments love us and the people hate us. Oh yea and poor poor Israel... lmao.

[Moderate Dem]

78. Saying that I see the logic...

is not the same as saying that I agree with it. Nuance...

And yes, there was a strategy behind it, even if the American people were lied to about the reasons. There was a clear desire by Bush to introduce democracy into the Middle East. I don't see how that can be denied.

As far as that strategy being successful, I am probably as skeptical as you are about it.

I wasn't trying to start a fight, just offer a different way of looking at it, and a lot of Democrats, including John Kerry, agree.

[TheKingfish]

80. Yea alot of democrats agree

So many that even in the Israeli/Palestine forum the history can't even be discussed? hmm. I wonder why. Maybe the history makes Israel look bad. Censorship on a progressive board... very sad...

[Mikimouse]

88. I call bullshit on Bush EVER having the motive of creating a

democracy anywhere in the world. All that Motherf*cker wanted was the oil, end of discussion. And as far as the Afghan invasion, if they really went in there to get OBL, then why were they trheatening the Taliban 6 months earlier to accept their capret of gold, or get buried under a carpet of bombs. Both of these 'wars' are immoral and shamefully deceitful. I don't support either one.

[mike_c]

96. you can invoke John Kerry all night long...

...but many of us are NOT impressed by his stance regarding the invasion and occupation of Iraq. I certainly don't find his stance any reason to support the murder of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians.

[flying_blind]

83. Fuck Supporting Israel

We have become just like them, even to the extent of creating our own personal Palestine.

US Israeli collusion in practicing Apartheid is the true cause of mainstreamed Islamic terror.

That and, ironically, our love or corporations (namely oil ones in this case) trumping our love of exporting real progressive ideas. Instead our petrodollars go to madrasas.

I am going veggie oil. Already sold my car and shopping diesel.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

Screw Paying for Terror training every time the ignition fires.

[Charles19]

89. That has been the plan all along

Bush is on the record as adoring and being quite jealous of Sharon. Seeing how he was able to use so much force and get political support for it.

Bush wanted his own Palestine to occupy and destroy. Problem is U.S. is funding Israel in their occupation, who is going to fund us? Hmmm maybe they thought Iraqi oil would be the funding... (nice try).

Such nonsense I really can't even stomach talking about it anymore.

[mike_c]

92. and millions of us know evil when we see it....

See my sig....

on edit: sigs are off-- U.S. war criminals out of Iraq!

[goclark]

106. Since Bush was in charge that ruled out competently

[radar]

85. CounterPunch.org has an article...

...By a man that was there during the 1st seige in April.

http://www.counterpunch.org/mahajan11062004.html

Fallujah and the Reality of War
By RAHUL MAHAJAN


I thought this quote was worth noting...

"...if you assume that every military age male is an enemy, there can be no better sign that you are in the wrong country, and that, in fact, your war is on the people, not on their oppressors,, not a war of liberation."

[The_Casual_Observer]

87. This is a war in honor of chimp

The chimp choose to have this war. The chimp chooses to continue this war. The marines are chimp's little biped servants.

[saigon68]

93. The marines will be DEAD LITTLE SERVANTS

[Azure]

100. I'm not going to single anyone out...

But I think it should be understood that any users here who are US citizens advocating the failure of US military forces and/or the success of their enemies are technically commiting a treasonous act.

Maybe some of you know that, but I just thought it would be best to issue a reminder, if only to let people know that this may be something they want to be careful about doing in a public forum.

I don't like this war one bit. But I'm a moderate, and I think some here are getting rather carried away.

[Lorien]

103. Lying about the reasons for war to get our soldiers into

this situation is an act of treason.

[TheKingfish]

107. Nope neither of those are treason, sorry n/t

[saigon68]

117. Take it outside

No one here is committing anything, but making fun of the chimp and the fools who follow him. Go tell it to rimjob

[Clarkie1]

104. Some thoughts

"You will determine whether rage or reason guide the United States in the struggle to come. You will choose whether we are known for revenge or compassion. You will choose whether we will kill in the name of God, or whether in His name, we can find a higher civilization and a better means of settling our differences."

-Wesley Clark

[donkeyotay]

112. I have found the face of Satan

FALLUJAH, Iraq - This rebel city's broad boulevards are empty now, the mosques thinly attended even for prayers. Save for those too poor, too old or too sick to leave, Fallujah has been left to the insurgents and the Marines who vow to crush them.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/10121811.htm?1c


A hospital has been razed to the ground in one of the heaviest US air raids in the Iraqi city of Falluja.

Witnesses said only the facade remained of the small Nazzal Emergency Hospital in the centre of the city. There are no reports on casualties.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3988433.stm

[saigon68]

116. ITS GUERNICA