First students expelled over French (headscarf) law

[DuctapeFatwa]

Two Muslim girls who refused to remove their head scarves in class have been expelled from school, and two more risked the same fate Wednesday as officials began punishing those who defy a new French law banning conspicuous religious symbols in public schools.

Two girls, ages 12 and 13, were expelled from a school in the eastern city of Mulhouse on Tuesday night — the first expulsions under the new law, the Education Ministry said.

http://pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/international-9/1098275052164241.xml&storylist=pahomepage

[Kagemusha]

1. We can expect more hostages taken over this soon.

This is REAL culture war.

[Kellanved]

2. is it?

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=31228
--snip
"They are studying in the United States with their headscarves. One of my daughters is doing a doctorate and the other a bachelor's degree," he said, according to a translation by the channel.

Turkey, like France, upholds its strictly secular principles in public life by banning girls from wearing Islamic headscarves in state educational institutions.

--snap

Edit: added excerpt

[candy]

3. France is a secular society---that's the way it is.----

Hostage taking over something like this would cause more problems for the terrorists,not France,IMHO.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

7. France should not repeal the ban because of terrorists.

They should repeal it because it is wrong.

[samtob]

11. Are the two French Journalists still

being held? They were taken hostage back in August, we have not heard much about them lately.

[JPace]

4. I can't decide who is right or wrong in this

instance....but I think this is going to get
bloody over a stupid piece of cloth.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

5. Oh, but haven't you heard...?

According to many "progressive" posters on DU, this is for the girls' own good! :mad:

[jdj]

45. Present and accounted for.

[Laughing Mirror]

6. Some of the scarves on these girls are extremely chic

I am always surprised that the French Ministry of Culture has not taken the problem in hand and issued a fashion decree, reclassifying these scarves not as religious symbols but as fashion accessories, headware as indispensable to the wealty bourgeoise in the 16ème arrondisement as the Hermès scarves around her neck.

Ultimately, some way will have to be found to accommodate the quaint customs of France's immigrants, many Muslim, because the flow of immigrants is not going to stop into your country France, in fact will continue, necessary as you know to keep the country going.

Where are you Jean-Paul Gaultier? Are you logged on? See if you can find a way to work those scarves onto the runway in your next spring-summer collection, OK?

[candy]

9. As a lady who has 365 "bad hair days" a year,I agree!! n/t

[progressivebydesign]

8. I'm quite unhappy with France. . but not for the Freeper reasons.

This is just incredibly sad. While we're touting, here, over the little girls allowed to go to school in Afghanistan, France is going backwards.

I had an internet acquaintance from France last year. We wrote off and on. I finally decided I no longer wanted to correspond because of her bigotry. Many people there are extremely bigoted against Muslims, and people of other cultures. While this woman I was corresponding with was sophisticated, intelligent, etc., she was horrifically bigotted against the immigrants in her country. I'm not sure why.. but it's getting ugly there.

[Scairp]

37. So, is the reasoning behind the ban?

Is it because they are concerned that Muslim school girls might be victims of violence if they wear their headscarves? I personally am not aware of why this became an issue, but when we are more progressive than the French, they need to be worried.

[Raiden]

10. This is downright rediculous!

I am all for secularism, but this is taking it too far, IMO. It's just as stupid as Roy Moore and his Ten Commandments Statue. To Muslims, the headscarf is a very important piece of clothing for females, because according to their religion, they must dress in a 'humble' manner; and this is how they do it. It is the equivalent of forcing a Jewish couple NOT to circumcise their male progeny. It's a stupid law. If I was a Moslem living in France, I'd protest it as well. This is taking Separation of Church and State too far.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

12. Agree in part

Yes, it is a stupid law. No, it is not "taking Separation of Church and State too far". In fact, it is a direct violation of that separation. And that is what the people in the U.S. who support school prayer and 10 commandment monuments in courthouses fail to understand -- that the separation of Church and State was not envisioned to protect the government. It was designed to safeguard religion from government interference.

[jdj]

47. and the other part is many, many Jewish families in Europe are

having to put their children in private schools because of the increasing violence directed at them. France has drawn a line in the sand and said that school is to remain secular. Good for them.

[barb162]

21. what about burkas/ "humble manner"/Taliban... notice how the

men don't seem to have to dress in a humble manner? I notice Saudi men often wear a head covering but in not many other Muslim countries is this seen. Does humble dressing apply only to the women or something?

[Kellanved]

13. France is not the US

I'm reading a lot replies about "seperation of church and state" here. I have the impression that many here argue on the basis of the American separation of church and state in the first ammendment; this has however almost *zero* bearing on France.
France has a strong laicist tradition, which did not exactly turn up overnight.

There are valid points for, as much as there are against a ban.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

14. I believe certain human rights should be universal.

I realize France is not the US. And I know that some countries that don't have separation of Church and State in the strictest sense still manage to do relatively well in terms of human rights. But France's headscarf ban is just wrong. It's clearly motivated by bigotry, no matter what some in the US choose to believe. And on a practical level, it does nothing to alleviate the problem it purports to address -- oppression of females in Muslim communities.

[DrWeird]

15. Fucking bigots.

What a shame.

[jdj]

51. so france is bigoted for disallowing head scarves,

but fundamentalist muslim men are not bigoted for treating women as criminals/slaves from the day they are born? nice reasoning.

[cvoogt]

16. France misunderstands Islam

The wearing of headscarves is one of many ways Muslims interpret the Quranic command to dress humbly. In some places it's headscarves, in others it's chadors, elsewhere it's burkas. In the US it can even be that they wear modest but modern clothing and not headscarf at all. So to ban headscarves is really not targeting Islam (as France wants to do), it's targeting those Muslims who choose to dress modestly by wearing headscarves. If they really wanted to enforce secularim they should prevent their students from praying fives a day if it interrupts classes. I wonder how the female students manage that in the public schools.

It's a misguided law and it sadly affects the Sikhs too, as well as Jews, and least of all, Christians, because a small cross on a chain is normal and is already inconspicuous. I think of this as the iconoclastic furies of the Reformation, or the Cultural Revolution. Destorying or removing symbols of culture will not destroy the culture. It will elicit a response from that culture, and that can take the form of adaptation, or it can result in more violence. sadly, I think the latter is more likely.

[maxsolomon]

27. here's where i differ

the hijab, the burkha, the chador aren't "modest" dress, they're oppressive & misogynist dress.

as a guy, i see this aspect of islam as insulting to men - it says that men are untrustworthy & disrespectful, and the sight of women's hair, or bare flesh, or beauty, will drive us to commit rape.

[jdj]

49. "the nine parts of desire"

man only has one part, women the other nine, we are ravenous horny beasts whose sexuality must be controlled in every way.

It's worth noting here that hijab was a initially a mode of dress worn by very rich women, and then poorer women adopted it to look higher class.

Schools ban fashion trends all the time, which is what head coverings were in their infancy in islam, and which is what they should have remained, an optional fashion statement.

[jdj]

48. I hope you are right.

"Destorying or removing symbols of culture will not destroy the culture. It will elicit a response from that culture, and that can take the form of adaptation, or it can result in more violence. sadly, I think the latter is more likely."


Seeing as how patrilinealist society has gone to every length to destory the ancient mother-goddess culture,namely by making every effort to control female sexuality (which is what the burka is, that humble crap is bullshit) then I'm glad you have confidence the culture of true freedom for women has survived, and may someday be acknowledged and honored, instead of being supressed by these juvenile orthodox schemes of reproductive control.

[Rochambeau]

17. Frankly I don't know if it's useful to explain or respond in this thread..

So many people in this thread apparently know everything so much more than I do about the exact situation in France.....We french DUers are useless here obviously.
Good, bad, black, white....as usual......
Not a clue, or barely, but don't question, don't search, just judge, definitely.
Well, if you say so ladys and gents, enjoy yourself. EOM

[chimpy the poopthrower]

18. If you have something to contribute, please do so.

I don't think there has been any French-bashing on this thread. Some of us just happen to disagree with the headscarf ban. If you're looking for French-bashing, try looking on Free Republic or some other right-wing site.

[Rochambeau]

19. It's not a problem of french-bashing and I feel at home here in DU among

fellow progressives and democrats but this thread is not the first one about that matter in DU and every time it's the same song and the lyrics are "Not a clue, or barely, but don't question, don't search, just judge, definitely". Me and others, french or not, explained, again and again how that question is complex and really specific to France. Now I'm off with it, it's enough. I don't want to be part of that game anymore. If "you"(nothing personal chimpy the poopthrower) know the whole thing so well, we're useless here once again.
Let me tell just one thing, it's clearly good for the franco-american friendship here in DU that we french DUers don't act the same way ("Not a clue, or barely...just judge, definitely" about a bit hard to understand very specific american issues.... It would be bloody and you would certainly don't appreciate....

[chimpy the poopthrower]

20. Well, this is a discussion site.

People are here because they are interested in discussing complex issues. I have my opinion, obviously, but someone living in France could provide some valuable input, I think. You might even change my mind. Or I might change your mind. I guess I don't see the point of posting to a thread to say that you have something of value to contribute but you're not going to share it because people won't listen or because you're tired of discussing the issue. :shrug:

[Rochambeau]

24. If only I could read sometimes from people who share the same

opinion with you something like "but I guess the french should have their reasons" or "I may be a bit far away from the specific situation there to have a definitive judgement about their behavior" instead of :

"it is wrong"
"This is downright rediculous"
"Yes, it is a stupid law"
"It's clearly motivated by bigotry"
"Fucking bigots. What a shame".
etc etc etc .....

Once again imagine the french DUers acting that way about specific american issues a bit hard to understand to us : "it is wrong. This is downright rediculous. Yes, it is a stupid law. Fucking bigots. What a shame". You would call that french anti-americanism behavior I guess.....
This is not my perception of debate or even discussing...but, believe me that way to behave is clearly one of the things the french historicaly blame the americans for it. Call it french anti-americanism if you want.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

25. Well, I'm not going to beg you to participate.

I welcome your input, but I'm not going to beg you for it. It seems to me that you are spending a lot of your time explaining why posting in this thread would be a waste of your time. If someone from France or another country outside the US disagreed with an American law that I supported, and I felt that person would understand the law better if they had more insight into some aspect of American culture, I would try to explain it to that person. To say, "Oh, it's a French thing. Americans can't or won't understand," seems like a cop-out to me.

[Rochambeau]

26. I spend a lot of time on that issue (that way to judge definitely

a situation you CAN HARDLY -not your fault, it's a fact- entirely understand without trying to understand a bit more first) because I believe we can't debate that way. In a sense, for me, here and now in DU, it is as much important as the basic issue (the headscarf law).
How can we debate that way ?!!? That thread is not a discussion thread but a tribunal. No french in the thread and the "hammer of Justice" falls loudly. Now, I'm here and you say " I welcome your input" ?!?
Sorry but I prefer to "waiste my time" as you said on the form than on the substance since I believe that what is happening here is a perfect exemple of the major relationnal difficulties between the french and the americans.
What can we do, all of us, in that thread about the headscarves law? Nothing. What can we do in that thread and in DU in general to improve the relationships between our two peoples? Much more in my opinion.
If today I manage, not to make you change your mind about that french law but, to make you understand that you will never be able to instore a productive dialogue with your french allies(and with many others in the World IMHO) if you behave the way you did in that thread, then it would have been productive and then one day or an other we will be able to really discuss and share opinions productively.

[smirkymonkey]

44. I would be interested in hearing your side of the story...

to be honest, I understand where the French are coming from in that they have a very strong tradition against religion creeping into matters of the state and other secular traditions.

Personally, I think ALL religion should be banned, but that's just me.

Please share your point of view, there are a few of us here who would be interested.

[barb162]

22. I would really like to hear your opinion on it

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Whatever the French government's reasons are, it's counterproductive

It makes the Muslims feel persecuted, and therefore more determined to wear traditional dress as a form of self-assertion.

The girls who were expelled from school will become heroines to the extremists.

The government should take a clue from the story of the Old Order Amish on one hand, and the Old Believers on the other, in the United States.

Both groups were opposed to education for their children. The Amish insisted on one-room schoolhouses ending in 8th grade. The Old Believers sent their children to public schools, but made them quit after fifth grade.

In the 1950s-1960s, several states attempted to force the Old Order Amish to send their children to high school. There were unfortunate scenes of law enforcement officials chasing Amish young people through cornfields to drag them off to school. The Amish continued to resist and began fighting local school districts in court. After several legal battles in 1972, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Old Order Amish could be exempted from state compulsory education laws. As far as I know, Amish children still quit school after eighth grade.

At about the same time, a population of Old Believers, who were originally from Russia, arrived in the state of Oregon. The state government decided not to force the issue and simply let parents withdraw their children whenever they pleased. Gradually, the average age at which Old Believer children left school moved upwards. The majority finished middle school, some went to high school, and in 1991, the first Old Believer entered college.

Which approach was more effective?

[Rochambeau]

28. Your demonstration is very effective and clear Lydia.

Let me try to explain you the difference between the American situation you described and the French situation (since we can start a discussion from such a post ;)).

What would have happened if the main point of the Old Believers was not to obtain a freedom for their children but was to walk a new step in a WAR to secularism in the whole USA? If it was just a new part of a plan to lead, in the end, the fundamentalists to built a state within the state in which they want ALL the Christians ghettoed in? What would have happen if all the others American would have know that the 8th grad issue was just a pretext and that the main goal was to change in the end the federal law in order to allow all the religious fundamentalists to write and impose their own laws.

The main goal of those who fight for the headscarf in public schools in France today has a name and this name is Sharia. They believe no secular law should prevail "God's law" (in many ways it means laws written by clergymen based, more or less, on God spell). The main goal is to obtain one day segregation. One France for the Muslims and one for "the others" (of course they want to rule(dictate) the "France for the Muslims").

Today it is the headscarf, tomorrow it will be (because they started already on those fields) no sports lessons for girls, no lessons about Holocaust, no mixity EVER for Muslims (schools, jobs etc...), no state employees allowed to shake male colleagues' hand, no male doctor for female patients even for a flu etc, etc, etc, the list find its end somewhere close to the Taliban Afghanistan. And all that in the name of freedom.
I say "Taliban Afghanistan" and not "Algeria" in my example because those who fight today "in the name of all the French Muslims" are fundamentalists, fanatics, not muslims. They are those who are preaching like the Imam of Venissieux that stoning to death is OK for adultery woman, they are those who are preaching death to the Jews of France, they are those who are infiltrating poor suburbs of France where the Muslims are already ghettoed because of the stupid and criminal French policies since 30 years. And they don't infiltrate to push them to change the situation, to push them to leave the "ghetto" and integrate the French society. No they push them to reject the French society, not because it is unjust toward them but because it is judeo-Christian and because Muslims are perverted by the company of the Christians. They preach that secularism is a weapon used by the Christians to destroy Islam and so to fight for the headscarf is to fight for God.

Call me conspiracy nut if you want but I don't believe that those who face the every day offensive of the islamic fundamentalists everywhere in the World, in France, in Algeria, in Morocco, in Turkey, in Jordan, in Egypt, in Iraq too now since a guy named GW.Bush would say I'm a conspiracy nut. It is a reality. It is a reality certainly as difficult to figure out to you Americans as it is to us to figure out what the Christian fundies merge is in USA. And believe me or not the American Christian merge is a joke compared to the incredible pressure the Muslims of the world have to bear today.

To finish with and in order to make you understand what the headscarf represent to the French Muslim girls, just compare the figures. How many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Muslim schoolgirls in France? And how many "victims" are we talking about now? And how many Muslims did pray and still do today for the two French journalists hostages of islamic fundies in Iraq because they know they are very lucky to live in France, and not only for money(!!!).

Yes today France is at war with islamic fundamentalists who are oppressing the Muslims all over the world and in France too and we have won a battle with that headscarf law. We French of all confessions want to say "No, enough now, you will not diktat our laws, put back your list in your pocket it will end at the headscarf diktat included" to the middle-ages barbarians. And the incredible majority of the French Muslims feel really lucky to live in a secular country that protects them from the diktats of the fundamentalists even if the price to pay today is to see your daughter/son remove her/his headscarf/kippa/cross/printed T-shirt at the door of the school, a discreet jewel is enough to show her/his pride.

[DemExpat]

29. It was worth waiting for your answer, Rochambeau..

Very well said.

Europeans are so wary of Fundamentalist Islam and its encroachment in much the same way that progressives, non-religious people, and people of other religions in the US are alarmed at the Christian Fundies and their encroachment.

DemEx

[barb162]

33. wonderful post, thank you so much, I agree with everything you say

[smirkymonkey]

46. Thanks for your explaination!

I appreciate it. I would have to agree that there is nothing more scary ass than the threat of religious fundamentalist taking over one's secular state.

There is some truth to fundamentalists wanting society to conform to their religious standards. It's funny how many people will bash the fundies over here, but when it comes to France they are somehow very tolerant.

All religious fundamentalism is dangerous. I see it as a very real threat to democracy.

[jdj]

53. I highly doubt the "old believers" went around burning young women

alive because of rumors of sexaul impropriety.

If anyone remembers the name of the young French-muslim girl that was burned to death in the last year in an honor killing, please post, I read the article in Vanity Fair about the struggle of French muslim feminists, and the danger they face trying to help young women to freedom.

The only situation comparable to this is the situation with polygamy in Utah and Colorado (and elsewhere) here in the U.S., in fact these pockets of polygamous communities have similarities to the muslim ghetto in France, many families are living off state aid, child abuse is prevalent, as well as incest (both the sexual assault kind, and the in-breeding kind, sometimes both within one family).

http://www.polygamy.org is a website run by some of the escapees from polygamous communities in Utah, good reading for anyone who wants to educate themselves about the reality of these women's lives, they live with oppression comparable to those of muslim women.

I won't forget the words of the French muslim young woman interviewed in the Vanity Fair article, who had been trying to escape her family and and impending arranged marriage. She finally gave up, telling the women who were trying to help her escape that "No one can help me. I am doomed."

That doesn't sound like freedom of religion (or freedom of ANYTHING) to me.

[Trillo]

30. Is it honorable to resist tyranny?

I've never understood something about schools, and this article doesn't state it, either. What happens to the girls after expulsion? Are they released from the future obligation to go to school?

From my experiences in the U.S., having been expelled from 2 or 3 private high-schools, the answer is likely no. Isn't it illogical in the extreme to be expelled but still be required to attend school?


I would be very surprised if the French answer is "yes", but that is, in my limited understanding, the only enlightened approach after "the expulsion" has been allowed.

It appears the schools in the U.S. basically want to have it their way, and only their way. Comply, or be punished. You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.

Isn't it always honorable to resist, even fight a tyrant?

[Rochambeau]

31. "Isn't it always honorable ..." yes it is and it is exactly what we are

doing.

About what will happen to the girls after expulsion, it's a good question and I admit that I absolutely don't know. I'll try to find and I'll report it here.

[barb162]

32. double standard? Moslem dress "codes" should be respected?

If an American woman lives in Saudi Arabia she will be behind high walls if she wants to dress "western" and she won't be allowed to drive outside the compound. Okay, she has to do as the Romans do. She is forced to dress Saudi style if she goes outside that compound.

So why shouldn't France do the same, that is, enforce French custom on the Moslem dress style?

If certain Moslem countries are enforcing dress codes on their citizens and visitors, should all countries do it?

[Rochambeau]

34. Sorry but it's completely different !!!

In France you can dress the way you want. Some muslim women wear burka-like dressing with only the eyes to be visible in the street and it's their right and freedom !!! You can be proselyte if you want but not at school and not if you are a state employee since the state and its schools are neutral and secular and the headscarf is concidered as proselysm just as the kippa or very visible christian signs. Jewels like little baptised cross, David star, fatma hands are absolutley allowed on the other hand.

[barb162]

36. thanks for the clarification on where the dress code is enforced.

[Kellanved]

35. No;

that argument is IMHO flawed. It is exactly the argument that usually is used by the opponents of the ban, to belittle the law by calling it a quid pro quo. Neither has the law any effect outside public schools, nor does it differentiate.
Fundamentalist states and their conduct can not be a benchmark for policies at home (nor are they); a warning maybe, but certainly nothing more.

I have to wonder why the related law in Turkey gets so conveniently ignored for the alleged Christianity vs. Islam reasoning.

Edited for spelling and a missing sentence.

[barb162]

38. I am not familiar with Turkey's law on dress but I know westerners

can go there without getting hurt if they dress western.

As a woman, I do not like the idea that women are supposed to be doing this modesty bit when the men don't seem to be doing the modesty bit at all. When I look at those women in Afghanistan and other Moslem countries completely covered (especially on some sweltering day)I say this is not at all about humility, modesty, etc., but simple discrimination and harassment against women.

[Rochambeau]

39. 100% agree. n/t

[Sword of Whedon]

40. A solution that works

All the Muslims have to do is produce their deity, and have him lay down the law, it's that simple.

Otherwise, there is no commandment that they have to obey, and the entire point is moot. Any being who makes an instruction should be more than happy to verify it.

[barb162]

56. LOL, if only, if only...

[Kellanved]

42. Exactly

Turkey bans headscarves in schools. And it isn't a new thing either, the ban is Atatürk's doing. (with good reason, one might argue)

[smirkymonkey]

54. I also agree with you....

Thanks for your input.

[jdj]

55. On GlobeTrekker (PBS) the female narrator

expressly warned that if you travel there as a woman alone you will be harassed, or molested. She interviewed other women who agreed that they had experienced this in Turkey. And then at the end of the segment a man reached out and as he put his arm her shoulder he grabbed her breast, right on camera.

Apparently this is fairly common in muslim countries for men to be of the belief that a woman uncovered (or "dressing western" is fair game for harassment."

[Raiden]

43. There is a double standard

but for good reason. I don't like the "they do it, so we should to" mentality. It makes me think of the conservative's argument that because Islamist terrorists behead our soldiers, workers, and expatriates, that somehow prison abuse, a la Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, is justified. We shouldn't allow the hostile and misguided customs of Saudia Arabia and other misogynistic nations to dictate our policies at home and abroad. We have been put to higher standard through centuries of progressive legislation and reforms and I think it's a good thing.

In regards to secularism, to me it is very simple. People should be allowed to practice their religion free of government or outside interference within reason. So, Muslim girls can wear their headscarfs, Christians can wear lapel pins, etc. etc. However, no intitutions such as courts, or government buildings, or schools, etc. can favor one religion to another, which is exactly what Roy Moore tried to do with his infamous Ten Commandments statue.

[jdj]

50. Europe is having a problem with rising anti-semitism

The muslim ghetto in France, many are unemployed, and many families are state supported.

It's not simple.

Underneath all the our pc declarations muslim women are risking their lives every single day, fighting for more freedom for themselves their daughters, sisters, etc. We don't even understand what kind of danger and fear they live in every single day because we are so spoiled as american men and women. The muslim population in Europe is growing exponentially while the non-muslim population is dropping significantly to the point that some towns have a population of mostly senior citizens. The fact is, the majority (note I did not say ALL) of women will not breed at the rate that warmongers desire unless given no other choice, and since muslim women have no choice this is what they are doing. This IS culture war, and I'm surprised so many on this thread have shown such a lack of imagination to understand that. Many here supported the bombing of Afghanistan, and when asked why they would say because our country was under attack. I trust Rochambeau's assertion, along with everything else I have read on the culture clash going on in France, that France is answering encroachment of it's values by trying to maintain a secular atmosphere in schools. I think it is honorable that France would try to prove to these young women that they are allowed the same rights and privileges as any other French citizens.

[barb162]

58. I agree

I wonder why France is letting them emigrate to France. And I wonder why we allow immigration in many instances. What I have a problem understanding is why these "militant" types move to Europe or here and then demand their "sexist"and other values be accepted. I know that as a woman moving to Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc., I would be possibly jailed or thrown out of their countries (or killed?) if I demanded they have to accept me walking around in western clothes. And I want to say I know this isn't really about clothing per se, but things far more important e.g., Sharia, mind-boggling intolerance, blatant sexism on many levels, etc.

[barb162]

57. "they do it, so we should to" mentality" For argument's sake,

How about: give these guys a taste of their own medicine. On a TV show a reporter was talking to some women who were wearing the complete covering and one of the women took off the damned head covering to show the reporter (and tv camera) what it was like looking through that eye cloth area and you could hardly see through it; the vision field was very fuzzy and narrow. I would like to see these jerks who beat up women in the streets for showing their wrist, talking to each other, not being with a male relative, etc.,being given the same treatment for a week that they give to women. Force them to wear a complete body covering whether they can through it or not, whether it is 110 degrees or not,because, you know, we gotta enforce the modesty laws. Will they like me for it? Hell no. But maybe, just maybe, a few of them will rethink how it feels to be treated like total shit because of their sex.

"We shouldn't allow the hostile and misguided customs of Saudia Arabia and other misogynistic nations to dictate our policies at home and abroad" I agree totally. I think we should not allow, as France is not allowing, these sexist men to dictate to their female relatives, how they should be dressing at all times when they are in the West. Of course, I am openly hoping that once the girls and women get a taste of some freedom in the schools and/or government, they will like it a lot and refuse to submit to the sexist practices their male relatives are propagandizing, teaching, enforcing, etc.

[annabanana]

41. our way and their way

They ban all indications of faith.......We allow all indications of faith. Same end, different means. I like ours better.

[jdj]

52. when muslim girls can CHOOSE head-covering

and CHOOSE when to get married and to whom
and CHOOSE when to first have sexual intercourse and with whom

and do any of these things, and many more, without any fear of violence from their own family or imprisonment or execution by the state, then we'll say all things are equal.

BUT THEY CAN'T.

so that is an invalid and really, unsophisticated comparison.