Battles rage around besieged Falluja

[bemildred]

Flames rose from an area around a US military base outside Falluja after a large explosion was heard on Sunday evening, witnesses in the beseiged city said.

---

At the eastern gate, US forces backed by tanks, and armed fighters are engaged in heavy clashes. There is no immediate word on casualties.

---

Outside the city, a US military convoy was targeted in a rocket attack on the road to Ramadi.

---

In the town of Rutba near the Jordanian border, insurgents dynamited the building housing the local council, police said. There was no immediate word on casualties.

al Jazeera

[acmavm]

1. Yep, we'll force the Iraqis to accept freedom, even if we have to kill

'em all. Then they'll really be free, won't they?

[FlashHarry]

3. Funny--in the 7th and 8th centuries, Islam was spread "by the sword."

From Persia to Spain, Islam spread with immense speed after the death of Muhammad, primarily because of its "convert or die" method of proselytism. Seems as if we're using the same approach these days with regard to democracy. I wonder if anyone at the Pentagon sees the irony in this.

[Aidoneus]

4. Funny, that's not exactly true

There was no such "convert or die" method.. Exactly such is why their rule was accepted so easily. The majorities of the populations were left as they were for several hundred years, though certain passive economic incentives existed (which incidentally were still less than under the old orders anyway). True, political strength was spread by the sword, relying on both the military strength of the united Arab peoples and the practically universal weakness of the overstretched imperialist entities of the age--from Persia to Andalus, all of the major states of the period crumbled from even minor waves (some exceptions--Constantinople being the only hold-out). That is in terms of political strength. Cultural influence, of the greatest importance, was spread mostly by trade ties, which explains the largest Muslim populations in lands that Arab armies to this day have never signifigantly tread (India, Indonesia, China, etc).

There are other flaws to the comparison.

I don't know where you'd get the idea that "democracy" was the intention of these campaigns. A steady drumbeat from the spokesbots, maybe, but a glance at decades of hard evidence speaks louder:--that it's all bullshit PR spin for the easily misled.

[bemildred]

5. Thanks, I was too lazy. nt

[lynx rufus]

7. thank you for that bit o' truth

I hate to see mistruth propagated here

[FlashHarry]

8. Er, I'm not saying they're spreading democracy, they are.

I was pointing out the irony, not acceding to it.

I agree that I may have been overly simplistic with the "by the sword" comment--I know that trade routes had a lot to do with it. However, the conquered often took up the religion of the conquerors--not just in the case of Islam, by the way--as I'm sure you are well aware.

[Malva Zebrina]

2. Get sha war on

Everybody support Bush and elect him the war president for four more years, because ya gotta getcha war on . God bless American and it's fight for it's freedoms by killing those who are no threat. Rah rah (We were and are not in any danger of losing our freedoms because of the Iraqi people)--rah rah--green berets--rah rah--kill em all--rah rah--oh dude! Pregnant women and toddlers killed because they threaten our "freedom"--rah rah--getcha war on all you good Muricans. Wave the flag for the killing spree. Rah rah, more money by the billions to Halliburton, while our people are suffering with no medical care. Rah rah-- Support the troops.

[neomonkey]

6. And I'm sure U.S. casualties for this adventure

Will be understated for the Now and spread out for the next 3 or 4 or 5 weeks.

Seems the Bushians have taken the accounting approach to war deaths.

We might lose about 30 boys during this exercise, but they will show up on the charts as war dead through the month of October (and November if Shrub is re-elected).

[Eye and Monkey]

9. "the accounting approach to war deaths" - amortization

ironic?