Election rules could reach Internet

[Chico Man]

And so it begins....

Could these rules apply to sites like DU?

Election rules could reach Internet
Court ruling: Extend some finance and spending limits to Net
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 Posted: 4:20 PM EDT (2020 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- With political fund raising, campaign advertising and organizing taking place in full swing over the Internet, it may just be a matter of time before the Federal Election Commission joins the action.

Well, that time may be now.

A recent federal court ruling says the FEC must extend some of the nation's new campaign finance and spending limits to political activity on the Internet. (Special Report: America Votes 2004, the money)

Long reluctant to step into online political activity, the agency is considering whether to appeal.

SNIP

The laws may not always apply to the Internet as they would to other venues, Wertheimer said, "but by the same token the Internet cannot become a major avenue for evading and circumventing campaign finance laws on the grounds that people just want the Internet free from regulation of any kind."

They brought down file sharing, is idea sharing next?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/13/internet.politics.ap/index.html

[The Sushi Bandit]

1. Related internet topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2486822

[Eurobabe]

2. blame it on al gore for inventin' the internets!

[Demeter]

3. I'm sorry but, I don't get it

The Internet is one of the foolproof ways to ensure equal time, freedom and opportunity to anyone who cares to invest the minimal effort required. It's not possible to abuse the Internet as one can the airwaves, and when anyone tries, the people take action and the word spreads.

In other words, it's not monopolized, it self-corrects and at the speed of light, and hackers have been unearthed, prosecuted and thwarted with monotonous regularity.

I do not see a need to regulate the Internet. I think it falls into the Freedom of Assembly sectionof the Bill of Rights.

[Chico Man]

10. All I can say is,

Look at what they did with on-line file sharing. Laws dictate the regulation. It would not take much to stretch the campaign finance laws into the internet realm. Grassroots, internet driven, politically aligned sites could be painfully regulated if the law were interpreted in that way.

On-line political activity almost has a "Napster" feel to it nowadays.. almost like a "take that" against the powers that be - the music industry in the case of Napster and corporate media in the case of on-line politics.

There is still a large file sharing movement on the internet, but it is not mainstream by any means.

Moving on-line political sites back to the "fringe" of out society would be a major victory for the corporate controlled media.

[Walt Starr]

4. Finally, common average everyday people have a venue to speak their minds

so naturally the government has to shut it down.

Can't have any free speech or anything, now can we.

:eyes:

[joeunderdog]

68. They are closing down water coolers next.

Free speech, plain and simple.

[foo_bar]

5. the FEC couldn't regulate their shoelaces

File sharing was never "brought down", just decentralized.

"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."
- John Gilmore (attributed)

"You can't take something off the Internet - it's like taking pee out of a pool."
- Anonymous

[Chico Man]

8. I correct myself: file sharing was brought out of the mainstream

Politically focused web-sites and blogs are now entering the mainstream, and having a profound effect on mainstream news (CBS memo, for instance)

Could they try to regulate and bring politically focused web-sites out of the mainstream using FEC laws and regulations?

[foo_bar]

17. yes, they could try

But negative publicity has a funny way of making media more desirable. The "mainstream" is whatever lands in your inbox that day; centralized repositories like DU or indymedia are vulnerable, but the information within is already cast to the four winds.

[Zorra]

6. Republicans own and control all the other media outlets . The internet is

the greatest threat to total republican/corporate control of information in the US because, other than word of mouth, it is the only form of mass communication that they don't own and control at this time, and this has led to a mass awareness that republicans have been deliberately controlling and altering the information that is available to the public through all other major media outlets.

If they can stop democratic activism on the net, they will shut down the main and basically only mass communication method that is used for the exchange of free public information and expressions of dissent against the government.

That is precisely what they want to do.

[foo_bar]

7. luckily, they can't (stop democratic activism on the net)

Not to "bring it on", but there isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

[Chico Man]

9. They could make it illegal to sponsor politically

motivated web-sites that endorse certain candidates based on tightening of the campaign finance laws.

Sure, it would never be possible to remove the topic 100% from the internet, but they could successfully push it out of the mainstream and back to the fringe (where it is much easier to label as such - fringe, lawless, extremist internet political activity)

[Voltaire99]

11. Shpongled is right

The Net is a thorn in the side of fascism.

Should Bush win, I expect political speech on the Internet will come under quite severe attack.

[foo_bar]

14. attack by whom?

Tom Ridge and what army?

[Chico Man]

20. Law enforcement

All they need is a law, and then they can enforce it.

To group political sites with Campaign Finance Reform is a short leap in the interpretation of the current laws.

People are being arrested for file sharing. There are FAW FEWER people out there managing high traffic political web sites like Democratic Underground.

Seems too simple for me.

[foo_bar]

27. who's been arrested for file sharing?

Using one's gut in lieu of facts and logic is what got us into Iraq.

[Chico Man]

29. A few resources

"Operation Digital Gridlock"

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/2004/82504ag.htm

Operation Digital Gridlock -- P2P Arrests

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Attorney General John Ashcroft, Assistant Attorney General Christopher A. Wray, and U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia Kenneth L. Wainstein has announced the first federal enforcement action taken against criminal copyright piracy on peer-to-peer networks. Wednesday morning, federal agents executed six search warrants at five residences and one Internet service provider in Texas, New York, and Wisconsin, as part of an investigation into the illegal distribution of copyrighted movies, software, games, and music over peer-to-peer networks. Agents seized computers, software, and computer-related equipment in the searches.

http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20040827072118991

Others..

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65062,00.html

Now, any Californian who shares files with more than 10 people must add their e-mail address to the file. Those who break this law could be fined up to $2,500, spend a year in jail or both. Minors who break the law would pay $250 for their first and second offenses.

http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004100601020

For the first time, students swapping music on Direct Connect, a popular file-sharing hub at Dartmouth and schools nationwide, could face criminal prosecution for their online activity. Last month marked the beginning of an alliance between the Justice Department and representatives of the music, movie and software industries with the goal of restricting illegal online file sharing.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/15/416f73de4f9d4

The Piracy Deterrence and Education Act of 2004 calls for up to three years imprisonment for individuals caught sharing more than 1,000 copyrighted works during a six-month period, and up to five years for those sharing the files to make a profit.

Plenty more where that came from....

The key word here is deterrence. Anyone with half a brain knows that 100% removal of illegal file sharing is not an option.

With respect to on-line political activity, think of it in the same way. They are going to look at ways to "deter" on-line political activity. This way, they can label anyone who participates as an extremist and a law breaker.

[foo_bar]

31. six search warrants, three dumb laws, no arrests

The only way they deter political activity is if folks like yourself encourage self-censorship. Physically deterring online activism is like physically deterring terrorism or drug use, only harder.

[Chico Man]

32. Am I encouraging self censorship?

The fact of the matter is: laws can be enforced. It all depends on if law enforcement is used or not.

The power of physical on-foot protests has been severely limited. The labels of eccentric, ultra-liberal and radical has been deeply entwined with the protest movement. We see world-wide protests against war in Iraq. Where did it get us? NOWHERE.

Political activity on the internet is becoming mainstream. It needs to stay that way.

If one is at the risk of being fined, or given jail time because their site promotes a candidate and is not fully FEC law compliant, most likely they will be deterred.

I see an an amazing opportunity in 2008 or 2012. Seriously, the way govt works in this country could drastically change.

I am not going to sit back and watch "silly laws" be passed limiting political activity on the internet because I assume it will not be enforced.

Dropping a domain from a DNS server is quite the easy task.

And another thing - why are there no pirate radio stations?

[foo_bar]

33. yes?

I am not going to sit back and watch "silly laws" be passed limiting political activity on the internet because I assume it will not be enforced.

What are you going to do? Spread your message of hope?

Dropping a domain from a DNS server is quite the easy task.

Finding out the ip address of a domain is even easier:
http://centralops.net/co/NsLookup.vbs.asp

[Chico Man]

34. Vbs file?

Seriously, should I alert you?

Its not a message of hope, it is a message, plain and simple. You seem to be in denial. Am I the only one here who is starting to look beyond this particular political race? What else am I to do at this moment for John F Kerry? Cross my fingers.

Sure, go to a dos prompt and do a nslookup. Big deal.

[foo_bar]

35. asp file

Not a programmer, I see.

it is a message, plain and simple.

It's a completely debunked message. The only thing we have to fear on the internet is fear itself.

[Chico Man]

36. No, not a programmer,

Enterprise architect.

Lol. vbs.asp must make it safe. Not a security expert I see.

You are essentially saying:

The Govt. will NEVER be able to enforce laws re: political activity on the Internet. So do nothing, everything is good. All the laws and stuff being passed, and worked on, just scare tactics. No big deal.

I am saying:

We better watch the f out or a golden opportunity could slip the people by and the True power of Internet driven politics will NEVER be known. (Think Howard Dean with a majority of support). Enforcing the laws will be EASY. Someone has to host a website. Someone has to associate the IP address with a domain name. Typing ip-addresses into my browser is not mainstream.

Better safe than sorry, wouldn't you say?

[foo_bar]

37. Enterprise Architect = Starfleet Academy decal on windshield

If you believe dynamically generated html is intrinsically dangerous and filesharers were arrested en masse, your paranoia might be a conclusion in search of a hypothesis.

[Chico Man]

38. Kerry Edwards bumper sticker is the only one I have

I do not believe filesharers were arrested en masse. That is an exageration. I do believe filesharers were deterred en masse. This is impossible to deny. And I do believe clicking on a link with a vbs extention (anywhere in the URL) could be harmful to the health of a computer.

If you want a technical debate, lets talk about service oriented enterprise integration patterns.

Here is a place to get you started:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321127420/ref=pd_sim_books_3/002-9803261-1560028?v=glance&s=books

(By the way, that is a link you can trust..)

=)

[foo_bar]

39. like www.vbs.net?

If you believe .vbs.asp is more perilous than .php, your belief system merits self-examination.

I'd read your J2EE manual but I'm retired.

[Chico Man]

41. That is a domain name

Not an extension.

Re, the book, it was a joke, used to illustrate a point. Your particular form of debate - continuous resort to personal attacks, exageration of the facts, and denial is a prime candidate for the self-examination-clue award of the year.

It is interesting you say you are retired - based on your written word, I had a picture of a teen script kiddie rougue file trader with braces just waiting for the underground internet revolution to happen. This is not a personal attack, mind you, but my perception baed on your style of writing and chosen subject matter.

[foo_bar]

42. it's spelled "rogue"

HTH.

[Chico Man]

43. Oh you got me

lol

If you'd rather debate with a perfect speller, give this (safe) url a try:

http://www.iespell.com/

Debate with the iespell engine all you want. At least spelling will 100% not come into question. And you can ignore content all day long. The perfect speller will not mind.

[foo_bar]

47. content-wise, in your own words

And I do believe clicking on a link with a vbs extention (anywhere in the URL)

You debunked your own parenthetical. You have one strong subject, and it doesn't relate to logic, technology, or your native language. Again, reminiscent of a certain President.

[Chico Man]

48. vbs extension

Sorry, but this is Nitty Gritty.

Would I click on this:

http://www.vbsecurity.com

Yes, vbs is anywehre in the URL, but not an extension.

Would I click on this:

http://www.domain.com/test.vbs/somethingelse

Probably not, vbs in anywehre in the url, and looks like an extension.

Would I click on this:

http://www.roguebrewery.com/scriptkiddie.vbs

No freaking way.

As John Kerry would say, I've been very clear.

You may want to join Free Republic where calling people flip floppers is seen as admirable.

[foo_bar]

49. paranoia is a side effect of not knowing

http://www.domain.com/ph334.t3h.vbs.hAx.asp

All vbs-capable browsers read extensions right to left for compatibility with the UNIX filesystems operating the bulk of web service. Hence it only "looks like an extension" to a human being who doesn't know any better, not a moderator.

[Chico Man]

50. If it looks like a bad extension, whether I know any better or not

I'm not going to click on it.

I would not click on that link either. Call me ignorant or paranoid for not clicking a dangerous looking link. That is just plain silly.

Do you consider yourself some sort of hacker or something? LOL Master link clicker!! lol

[foo_bar]

51. you claimed you didn't know whether to alert on me

Now you know.

On edit upon your edit (Jim Lehrer take note): your paranoia of links with scary names ties back to your paranoia of secret agents with magical abilities. In the next 75 minutes, I'll explain why.

[Chico Man]

52. It is VBScript. It is potentially dangerous.

here is the VBSCRIPT source code for NsLookup.inc.vbs.asp

http://www.hexillion.com/samples/view_src.asp?name=NsLookup.inc.vbs.asp

Is it potentially dangerous? Possibly. Should people click on links with vbs extensions from strangers on the internet? No.

Could you be installing a back door trojan and logging my ip address? Yes.

Is that paranoid? Potentially, but I'd rather not have a virus, thank you very much.

And what secret agents with magical abilities are you talking about.

[foo_bar]

54. no, it's an active server page

Not a single Windows browser will treat it as anything but an .asp. The potential danger is the same as any .asp or .php or .shtml, which doesn't appeal to your superstition concerning vbs appearing in the URL. Admit it, you were wrong.

[Chico Man]

56. Windows browsers do not execute Active Server Pages

Active Server Pages generate HTTP responses to HTTP requests made by the browser.

Not a single Windows browser will treat it as anything but a http reponse to an http request to a "black box server of unknown type out there somehwere at this url on the internet".

IIS processes Active Server Pages. So, just because the final extension on that URL happens to be ASP, and "most likely" IIS is processing the HTTP request that will be generated by my browser if I were to click that link, I am still not certain that the HTTP response does not have malicious code that could potentially exploit vulnerabilities in the browser I am currently using.

In fact, if anyone is at fault here, it is the system admin or developer at centralops.net that decided to provide "Free" tools for network testing on the internet at sites with suspicious looking URLs. Any developer working on free public tools would know that that would be a stupid thing to do. Wouldn't you agree?

[foo_bar]

57. resorting to research?

Any HTTP response can potentially exploit vulnerabilities, but vbs "in the URL" or anywhere left of the rightmost period isn't among them. The fear you alluded to is not grounded in fact. You're now discussing a different fear, which is that any url can ultimately lead to exploitation. That part is correct, but it wasn't the gist of your hypothetical alert.

[Chico Man]

58. Free Network Tools + VBS

Sorry, that is enough red flag for me.

It's not research, it is my job.

[foo_bar]

59. you mentioned you work on the Enterprise

[Chico Man]

60. Yes and understanding HTTP is a requirement

[foo_bar]

62. your understanding of HTTP

is akin to Laforge's understanding of an elephant. It may seem thorough, but you just wasted half my hypothetical IT budget filtering the wrong web pages. Then lying about it.

edit: comeback city!

[Chico Man]

64. Stop typing your filters by hand

Have a 3rd party manager your web filters.

Maybe that will save you some cash.

[foo_bar]

65. go ask jeeves

[foo_bar]

12. Congress passed a law against spamming

I wonder how they'll enforce it. If the FBI considered electoral hijinks more pressing than denial-of-service or child porn, they could enforce this hypothetical statute within US boundaries. Thus political sites would move to foreign countries, where Interpol would give even less of a crap.

China devotes an estimated 30,000 people to finding ways to censor the internet. They've succeeded only in making it slow.

[NeoConsSuck]

46. Who knows what the future brings..

Used to be you bought your bandwidth from a small ISP. For the most part, they're gone, and we now have Road Runner, Verizon etc..

If you wanted to run an Internet business or a small website, there were thousands of hosters you could choose from. Today, web hosters are disappearing or being swallowed up by large corporate hosters.

And all these changes took place in less than 8 years.

And don't think for one minute corporations will ever be willing hosters of activist websites.

[Days Between]

13. I can't imagine this is news

to the well educated community here, but I'll remind us of it anyway:

"National Security to Secure Cyberspace" http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/

Kurt Nimmo's article from January 2003 with links:

http://post911timeline.org/article025.php

[foo_bar]

16. it's a cat and mouse game

Unfortunately for despots, the mice are axiomatically better hackers. This isn't an empty boast: fundamentalists have an intrinsic disadvantage in a realm of math and logic.

[AP]

15. This probably has to do with buying ads and notices on internet ads and...

...things like that.

[Chico Man]

26. Is your Avatar an ad?

Seriously?

[VegasWolf]

18. I wonder if they are going after the good internets or the

bad internets?

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[Guaranteed]

19. How about they reach TV with it first? nt

[Chico Man]

23. That is the problem

They will say if we have rules for TV, we need them for the Internet.

Candidates could be disqualified.

Just think if a third party candidate comes along in 4 years and STORMS the internet. This is a HUGE possibility.

Could a third party candidate possibly take the election with the help of the Internet? YES - until the powers that be ensure that will not be possible by regulating and disqualifying candidates.

[Rjnerd]

66. Not sure how the money works, but

The arguments for regulating TV, is that the airwaves are a public resource. There is a fixed amount of broadcast spectrum, so at one time we were supposed to be fair about allocating it.

This doesn't apply to cable, newsprint, or the net, its why faux news is beyond the control of the FCC.

I agree there is the question of regulating where the money that pays the bills comes from. But things like Faux, or the Moonie Times have a lot bigger problem in that regard.

-dp-
www.the-nerds.org

[LifeDuringWartime]

21. think maybe dean scared em?

n/t

[Chico Man]

25. Precisely

Imagine a candidate with total internet support. It must scare the repubs and dems to no end.

[foo_bar]

28. your sig says it all

We cannot kill our enemies faster than we create them

For every webpage intercepted in China with the word 'Taiwan', fifty get through as 'Thaiwon' or 'Tieone'. The powers that be are powerless but to create paranoia. The chicken littles who propagate the paranoia do more damage to informational exchange than the thing itself.

[Chico Man]

30. You obviously do not realize the power of the internet in 2008

Whether Kerry or Bush gets in, I believe they will do all in their power to pass laws making on-line political activity regulated.

All signs are pointing in that direction. It only makes sense. For the first time in the history of the United States, third parties have the power to realistically win the election with help from the Internet in 2008 or 2012.

Let me ask you: do you still illegally trade copyrighted materials using the Internet?

I wouldn't have thought twice about answering that question with a yes 4 years ago. However, now, I neither illegally trade music on-line nor do I particularly want to. As far as the govt and recording industry goes, this means success.

There is no way a third party will be elected in this country if they are generally regarded as rougue or illegal.

[realcountrymusic]

22. FInally! Something we can agree with our wacko brethren about

The Freeper right is no more going to accept this than we are. Technically, it's going to be damn difficult for them to stop us. Even the 527s are not that important. I've seen better flash videos and political ads produced by some 15 year old kid working in his daddy's den than most of the pros can make. Anyone ever heard the phrase "offshore server?"

But it will be fun to make common cause with Freepers at last! Just think, Bush cracking down on the internetS will earn him, finally, the title of "uniter, not divider."

FUCK THEM. The net shall be free! Don't take the only thing we have left, or you'll need to do it over my dead body.

RCM

[Chico Man]

24. Very interesting

What happens if a third party candidate comes along in 4 years that unites and energizes politically minded internet users on BOTH sides of the fence? An exponentially growing campaign. DU and Free Republic unite. (Imagine that?)

Two party system - buh bye.

The powers that be will do everything in their power to prevent a Deanesque, independant, internet driven candidate in 4 or 8 years. Democrat and Republican. To them, 3rd party candidates can never be mainstream (obviously). They will do everything in their power to ensure a 3rd party candidate is never taken seriously, is always shown as extremist.

It is our chance to end the corporate 2 party system.

[sandnsea]

40. Could easily happen

There's actually alot more in common than people realize. If you removed the racists and pro-life elements of FR, there's alot people could unite on; guns, Patriot Act, freedom of speech, marijuana, personal regulation as opposed to corporate regulation, I actually could see a strong Libertarian candidate next time around.

[Chovexani]

44. They didn't bring down file sharing

They just drove it underground.

The Internet is the last bastion of truly free speech that we have in this country. That's why TPTB are so scared of it and why they've been trying to alternately co-opt it for commercial uses or control it. But they can't control it, they can't regulate it even if they wanted to.

The gov't has its head so far up its ass when it comes to the Internet (and technology in general) it's not even funny.

[Chico Man]

45. Can they drive it underground?

And if so, does that even make internet based political activity even viable, since it can then be labeled "underground", extremist, etc by the mainstream?

[foo_bar]

53. democratic "underground" is self-labelled

amazon thinks we're the mainstream:
http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=379&h=216&r=6m&u=democraticunderground.com/&u=eff.org&y=t

[Chico Man]

55. Not to be confused with "Weather Underground"

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/weatherunderground/film.html

And what exactly is DU doing that is so underground? Supporting John Kerry for President?

It all comes down to perception... DU, once thought to be a haven for left wing radicalism, is now becoming a mainstream big player in the internet political world. Free Republic is certainly though to be a haven for right wing extremists.

What if we were supporting someone other than John Kerry?

[foo_bar]

61. 40% of the country thinks John Kerry is radical

or would if they watched UHF. DU was never a haven but for Democrats and "like-minded progressives". Like-minded in the sense of voting the same way and encouraging others to do same. It's not romantic, but if you view this as a sporting game with horrendous consequences, you'll look for silver linings anywhere you can.

[Chico Man]

63. Like Howard Dean radical? Or Ralph Nader Radical? Or Kucinich radical?

Kerry actually has a chance to win the presidency. If that is not a silver lining, I don't know what is.

He may be perceived as radical because of attacks by the right wing (how many times did Bush call Kerry liberal during the debates?), but in the grand scheme of things, I'd say John Kerry is middle of the road. Certainly not the solution to all of the country's problems, but a step in the right direction.

If you think of it, DU IS the mainstream place for like minded progressives. I bet a large percentage of the Howard Dean surge could be attributed to DU. DU is positioned to a large part of the foundation of a perceived progressive movement in the next 4 years. I would say DU played a large part in getting Kerry where he is today. It could even be a large player in the election of a third party candidate and the eventual reshaping (or recovery) of democracy in America.

[foo_bar]

67. Kerry's not even George W. Bush radical

Hopefully the mild-mannered states near Michigan see it that way.