Pope pleads for peace in Iraq

[Khephra]

Pope pleads for peace in Iraq
From correspondents in Vatican City

18sep04

POPE John Paul today issued a new appeal for peace in Iraq and the Middle East, condemning the "horror" of violence as well as "the terrorism that cruelly targets the innocent".

"There can be no lasting easing of tension in international relations unless the desire for dialogue prevails over the logic of conflict. Whether in Iraq, where it seems so difficult to restore civil peace, in the Holy Land, unfortunately disfigured by an endless conflict or in other countries reeling from the terrorism that so cruelly targets the innocent, everywhere violence shows its horror and its inability to solve conflicts," he said.

snip........

Referring to the current "troubled times", the Pope again called "on the international community to assume its responsibilities to foster a return to common sense and negotiation, the only possible way out of conflicts between men."

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,10809467%255E401,00.html

[Catfight]

1. How about pleading for peace from the anguish of the pedophile

his followers have been allowed to escape?

[saigon68]

2. No CF he can't do that

After all, the pedophiles (err Priests) were only counselling these WAYWARD YOUNG MEN.

[Uzybone]

3. why dont you do something more productive?

Like counselling Catholics not to vote for pro choice candidates? Or arguing agaiunst birth control information getting to the poorest and most wretched societies on earth. :eyes:

[koopie57]

6. In all actuality

I believe that he has said something to the effect of 'dont' cast your vote based on one issue - look at what the candidate offers for helping the poor, hungry' .... something like that. I may be wrong though, but on the assumption I'm not, I find it disturbing that our religious nuts, uhm, fanatics, uhm...right :crazy: are following *'s lead rather than the Pope's. The Pope has been pleading for the war to stop, but the :crazy: are not listening to him. :wtf:

on edit...I took too long to write, and didn't see post 4. You nailed it right on.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Thanks, and you're correct. Yesterday, there was

a thread about Archbishop John Donoghue of Atlanta that made it seem that he said Catholics couldn't vote for a pro-choice candidate. I checked it out immediately and the newspaper article linked to was a bit misleading, probably because the reporter didn't understand the nuances of the archbishop's position. Since Donoghue is my bishop, I looked at his letter newly posted on the diocesan site. Here's the relevant part, with my emphasis in bold:


"What must Catholics do - in this upcoming General Election, and in all elections of law-makers and law-upholders?

The Church holds her members to acceptance, complete acceptance of her teaching on matters of faith and morals. We can argue incessantly about degrees of authority, and types of authoritative statement. But the Church's teaching is to be held and practiced. In moral theology, there are two kinds of cooperation involved in this question, and they break down as follows: "Formal cooperation is that degree of cooperation in which my will embraces the evil object of another's will. Thus, to vote for a candidate because he favors abortion is formal cooperation in his evil political acts. However, to vote for someone in order to limit a greater evil, that is, to restrict in so far as possible the evil that another candidate might do if elected, is to have a good purpose in voting. The voter's will has as its object this limitation of evil and not the evil which the imperfect politician might do in his less than perfect adherence to Catholic moral principles. Such cooperation is called material, and is permitted for a serious reason, such as preventing the election of a worse candidate." (cf., Colin. B. Donovan, Moral Duties Concerning Voting, EWTN)"


It's a nuanced position, not the black and white, with us or against us, sort of position favored by Bush*, but perfectly clear. And it follows directly from what the Vatican has said recently, through a document from Cardinal Ratzinger. It is important to read the documents, though, because the newspaper versions are not often accurate.


You can read the entire letter here:

http://www.archatl.com/archbishops/donoghue/20040916.html

[DemBones DemBones]

4. Pope calls for peace; bigots trash pope.

Are you guys trying to get Catholics to defect to the GOP or do you just not care if you insult the largest Democratic voting bloc?

[RevCheesehead]

5. Amen.

[Uzybone]

7. Sorry I'm not a bigot

I have nothing against Catholics (half of my family is catholic). I just find their leadersto be hypocritical (like most religious leaders). Try not jumping to erroneous conclusions next time.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. What's hypocritical about being against war? Against poverty?

Against the death penalty?

[davhill]

31. You just sound like one

[Uzybone]

8. and let them defect

if you want to vote againt your interests and against the many of the values that Christ espoused because some senile old man in Rome is getting insulted then enjoy yourself.

[alcuno]

11. Except you, perhaps facetiously, accuse the Holy Father of doing

things which he has not done. I am a Catholic from a 100% Catholic family and I don't agree with the politics of the Church on a lot of things. However, when you insult the Pope you turn off a lot of Catholics. It's just a fact and not real smart.

[AngryOldDem]

37. There is a difference between criticism and insult....

...and that is what bothers most Catholics whenever criticism of the religion turns into name-calling and faith-bashing.

And as for the Pope's mental faculties, I think his opinions on this war from its start have pretty much agreed with ours: It's wrong, it's barbaric, it needs to stop.

As I said somewhere else here, if after all this time he had stayed silent on this issue, he'd be catching holy hell over that.

[5thGenDemocrat]

40. "(blah blah) Vote againt (sic) your interests (blah blah)"

Hey, my house is paid for, I have one-fifth shares in two natural gas wells and I'm too old to get drafted -- so maybe I will. Or maybe I'll just choose to sit this one out here in Michigan.
John
I suppose I care who wins this election, but it isn't going to make a damned bit of difference to me personally. Then again, I get paid either way and, strictly speaking, voting for Bush WOULD be, financially, in my best interest.
Thanks for the advice.

[saigon68]

10. No, actually I am talking about guys like the Criminal Father Goeghan

Who counselled youths in the back room of his church and the poor millions who have to make up the Billions of dollars awarded by juries to the VICTIMS of counselling by the good father and his brothers of the cloth.

Pedophile Priest: The Crimes of Father Geoghan

by Denise Noe


http://crimemagazine.com/03/geoghan,1201.htm

The unofficial poster boy for priest pedophilia was a Boston priest named Father John Geoghan. He became a symbol for everything the church had done wrong in handling this problem when, on Jan. 6, 2002, The Boston Globe broke the story about how Boston’s archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law, had moved the abusive Geoghan from parish to parish over the years. The article also discussed the $10 million dollar settlement the church had already made with families of his victims. After the article ran, an embarrassed Law apologized – and turned over to law enforcement the names of dozens of Boston priests who had been similarly accused.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Geoghan isn't relevant to this story, which is about

Pope John Paul II calling for peace.

Geoghan was kicked out of the priesthood so calling him Father Geoghan is inaccurate.

I don't deny that some priests have abused children and some bishops have covered it up. I will point out that Protestant ministers and Jewish rabbis have also abused children and their superiors have covered it up. Those stories haven't been covered as extensively. There is a strong vein of anti-Catholicism in this country that dates back to its beginning, I suppose, and certainly to the heyday of the Klan and the Know-Nothings.

[saigon68]

18. What do Jewish Rabbis have to do with this story??

the Pope calling for "Peace" ???

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Nothing! They only have to do with YOUR

raising of the issues of pedophiles in the priesthood. Pedophiles are everywhere, including the rabbinate and Protestant ministry. Employers often try to protect them.

But the pope's call for peace has nothing to do with pedophiles anywhere.

[saigon68]

21. I never raised the issue of PRIESTS anally raping boys

Someone else up the thread did

and now apparently we want to add Rabbis to the mix

[DemBones DemBones]

24. OK, you raised it again. It still is irrelevant to the thread,

but if you're going to talk about priests anally raping boys, I'll remind you that lots of other men anally rape boys, including men who are also rabbis or Protestant ministers or teachers or Boy Scout leaders or soldiers or cops or computer programmers. How relevant is their choice of profession? The only relevance I know of is that many pedophiles go into fields that put them in frequent contact with children. I am angry that they do that and I wish that no child should ever be abused again. But I get tired of so much blame being heaped on Catholic priests as if this were solely a Catholic problem, and particularly tired of any thread connected with Catholicism in any way having posts focusing on the minority of priests who are pedophiles. It is a very right wing type of behavior, focusing only on a negative attribute to discredit a person or group, overlooking positive attributes when presented with them. Think about how they reduce Bill Clinton to nothing more than a horndog who fooled around with Monica. The time he spent with her is hardly the most significant part of his life, but that's what they focus on. See what I mean?

[saigon68]

26. What does Monicas Lewinsky have to do with pedophile priests

Your straw men arguments are starting to become tedious.

and no I didn't bring it up again---- for some strange reason this thread is going no where

although I feel sorry for the poor laity forced to cough up millions of $$$$$$$$$ that could be used to feed the poor, instead used to pay off the damages caused by Cardinal Law and his merry band of criminal accessories.

[zzapatista]

9. nice change from the usual message of the evils of Feminism and birth...

control. Screw the Pope and his bas-ackwards fanatacism.

[AngryOldDem]

36. Say what?

>>>Screw the Pope and his bas-ackwards fanatacism.>>>

The Pope is a fanatic because he is speaking out against the war? If he is, then what does that make all of us?

If he stayed silent on the war for this past year and a half, you all would be going after him for THAT. Catholics are indeed politically homeless.

[The Zanti Regent]

12. If he really meant it, he would have excommunicated Santoroum and his ilk

All he had to do was excommunicate everyone supporting this war including the Nazi Party congressmen and soldiers.

But he won't. He still buys into that White Man's Burden shit!

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Bush* isn't Catholic, Cheney isn't Catholic, Rumsfeld

isn't Catholic, Wolfowitz isn't Catholic, Powell isn't Catholic, Rice isn't Catholic, Ashcroft isn't Catholic.

Yeah, the pope could excommunicate Tom Ridge and Rick Santorum -- and John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Dick Durbin, Joe Biden, Pat Leahy, Mary Landrieu, Barbara Mikulski -- fourteen senators, mostly Dems, and who-knows-how many Catholic congressmen (at least 48 Catholic Democrats.)

Yeah, that would stop the war. :eyes:

[lastliberalintexas]

30. The threat is used against pro-choice politicos

ALL THE TIME. Makes sense, since their political position goes against the Papal dictates.

HOWEVER, I have never, ever, even once heard the Pope or any other of the Catholic hierarchy call for or threaten to excommunicate a pro-death penalty or pro-war Catholic. When THAT happens, then your arguments against the hypocrisy allegations may carry some weight.


It's not anti-Catholic to dislike the Pope- anymore than it is unAmerican to dislike Bush.

[21winner]

16. As if that would do any good.

The Pope orders bishops to diss Kerry and others because of birth control and abortion. He is silent on the politicians that support the death penalty and the unjust war. He ought to know better.

[Malva Zebrina]

17. Poor old man--

hopelessly doomed to defending hypocrisy.

Treat women like breeding cows under the horns and gonadal sacs of the bull--the male hierophants just as eager for power as any political candidate and the first thing to do is to convince women they must take second place, even if they are smarter, more educated and more savvy than they. Too bad so many women are eager to assume that assigned role and have little interest in supporting their sisters re the role of women's health, and the role of women in the clergy.

Women who do not have a place in his sanctified hierarchy and most likely never will, and then call for peace when there is a slaugterhouse of an illegal war going on Poor old man--has little credibility I think.

I think perhaps if the Pope were a woman, she would be better able to run the 'Vatican.

To be fair, most leaders of all the major religions, came out against this invasion as it took form and as it became obvious what Bush had in mind.

The people,some fifty percent, if we are to believe the polls, and in this country that is supposedly eighty percent Christian, followed a delusional religious, born again madman and crowned him the leader of the religion, instead of putting faith their own religious leaders. I think the only sect that approved of the slaughter was the Southern Baptist Convention--some , reportedly, sixteen million members.

So much for religion.

Pope is of course, right about the war, and has said so many times. Poor Pope--he is an old man and a sick old man.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. What's relevant is that the pope is right about the war,

since that is what this news article is about.

[RevCheesehead]

23. Amen, and Amen.

I am not Catholic, but I live in a heavily-Catholic area. Please stop bashing RC's - it's offensive. Hatred has no place in an honest discussion about peace.

Sure, the church universal is full of hypocrisy - but so is the DU! That's the world we live in. But when one of the most powerful leaders in the world condemns the war in Iraq, we bash him????????

The pope has a voice throughout the world. He does not speak only to America. I see his speaking out as an important signal that ALL christians, not just RC's, need to speak out against this war.

I, for one, am grateful for his plea for peace.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Hypocrisy truly is a universal human condition.

Easy to see in others, hard to see in ourselves. But we can be more vigilant about our own hypocritical tendencies, and realize that there are bad people in every group, but good ones, too.

We can be better than we are. We just have to try.

[AngryOldDem]

27. One more Amen to your two Amens

I'm sure no one here would have any problem with what JPII said if it had come from any other world leader.

I am a Catholic. I do not agree 100% of what my Church says (if I did, I wouldn't be on this forum). I am also a member of Voice of the Faithful, have been active in my local chapter, and know several victims of clerical sexual abuse. That said, I want people to stop defining the Church SOLELY by the sex abuse scandal. There is more to the institution than that. Such bashing is not productive, it is insulting to those of us who are well aware of the Church's problems and are attempting to do something about them, and it cheapens the message of peace and social justice that the Church and a lot of its members -- myself included again -- are trying to bring to our respective worlds. The committment to social justice runs far and deep in the Catholic tradition, and I cannot stand to see it cheapened -- be it by criminal priests, or those who jump at chances to trash the faith as a whole.

I applaud the Pope -- and I always have -- for being in the forefront in his criticisms of this war. He was one of the first in the world to have the guts to stand up to Bush and his warmongers. He sees this conflict for the crime and injustice that it is, and he certainly does have a moral duty, both in his position as Christ's vicar on earth and as a human being, to speak out.

[Malva Zebrina]

35. Sure--they all, all the religious were right about it

Each one came forth and expressed the opinion that this was not a just war-I remember that distinctly-it was not only the Pope and the Catholics who are the defenders of morals and ethics when it came to an "unjust war" and I am NOT bashing the Pope but posting reality--which is obvious, published fact and part of the Catholic religion.

You can deny it or attack the messenger for going off a topic that may be denied, but cannot deny the facts.


The Pope has to struggle with the factors in his religion that do present a picture of hypocrisy. Fact.

The Pope is a nice old man--I have nothing personal against him--

[davhill]

34. I am sick and tired of the bigotry on this forum

Too many posters to not take the time to investigate what the people they attack truly believe. I am working hard among my fellow Catholics to convince them that the true pro-life candidate is Kerry, that creating a just and equitable society is more effective in eliminating abortion than throwing women and their doctors in jail. Rove et al have set on a deliberate strategy to manipulate the sincerely held moral beliefs of religious Americans to support an essentially antithetical position. Except for a few bishops who have caved in, they are failing. It only helps them to imply that one cannot be a true democrat if one has religious convictions. If you all want me to stop trying to get Catholics to vote Democratic in November just let me know and I will back off. Otherwise give my efforts some support.

[RevCheesehead]

38. and a hearty THANK YOU for that effort!!!!!!!!

PEOPLE, PLEASE STOP BASHING CATHOLICISM AND THE POPE!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine, if you will, that an undecided Catholic visited this forum and found all your words of hatred posted here. That sure would turn me off if I were in their place.

I'm suspicious of some of the above posts that are probably disruptors at work, trying to get us to fight among ourselves.

If you want to discuss Catholicism in general, or heap your criticism on the Pope or the Church, please start your own post in the Lounge.

I am truly thankful for all of you who are working so hard to help our voices be heard in this country, because we are facing some serious shit in this world. Bashing, arguing and fighting among ourselves isn't accomplishing one damned thing. If you want * to win, then keep it up.

If you want Kerry to win, then please be respectful of the original message. HATE HAS NO PLACE IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT PEACE.

[Algorem]

28. Heard someone say the priest at mass 2-3 weeks ago at Sacred Heart

Catholic Church in Wadsworth,Ohio was telling the(audience?)...that they had to vote for Bush and a lot of the people in the(audience?)...were quite bothered by this. http://www.shofjesus.com noticed on the "Pastor's desk" page on the site he writes a lot about voting,but does not say who to vote for.Do they sneakily only say this in Mass?

[AngryOldDem]

32. "Do they sneakily only say this in Mass? "

They shouldn't. Not only does it violate their tax-exempt status, but also goes against the bishops' stated directives that Catholics are to look at each candidate and how they stand on the entire spectrum of social teaching, and then use the conscience as a guide as to whom to vote for.

I don't doubt that this happened, and the priest was way out of line. He needs to be told so. Next time he gives a stump speech in place of a homily, people should walk out, or call the office the very next day. He will get the message. Most priests are very attuned to this these days, I think.

I had a leaflet left on my car during Mass a month ago from someone who took exception to my Kerry sticker. I complained immediately and the church instituted a policy against such crap, but not because it's concerned with freedom of speech, or any lofty ideas like that. I heard what motivated them was the fear of the loss of their non-profit status. But, hey, whatever gets the job done.

[JoFerret]

29. Urge and pray people vote out those who brought us the war

...now THAT would be useful. Pope baby was clear in his opposition to the Iraq war. His minions have no problems pulpitting about abortion as an electoral issue. How about death - war and the cult of war and death penalty? Urge the catholic voters to throw the blasphemous, evil death-mongers out of office.
Who would Jesus bomb?

[Algorem]

33. Would be a nice project for people,if priests are telling mass-goers to

vote for Bush,to go into the masses with audio or video recorders,get it on tape,and expose them.

[Just Me]

39. He gets an "F" for using the word "terrorism",...

,...to characterize what is happening in a sovereign nation that has been occupied,...a nation that presented no danger to those who occupy it,...a nation whose peoples suffer far, far greater now than it did before it was "occupied".

FUCK "BENEVOLENCE"!!!

NO HUMAN BEING CAN "REASONABLY" LAY CLAIM TO "BENEVOLENCE",...at least, no human being who actually believes in a higher power.

[goforit]

41. The Pope puts Bush in power and he wants ........peace?????

The Pope is nothing but a phoney SCHMUCK!!!

[sr_pacifica]

42. Jesus Christ!!!

I sense an awful lot of ex-Catholic bitterness and plain old-fashioned Know-Nothing style anti-Catholicism in these posts.