Dozens killed, wounded in US air strike (new overnight Fallujah massacre)

[Aidoneus]

The cowards are still bombing people's homes at night, because they can't get in during the day. Our glorious heroes.. :eyes:

Dozens killed, wounded in US air strike
Friday 17 September 2004

At least 16 people were killed and 25 wounded in overnight strikes by the US air force near the city of Falluja in the al-Anbar province, Iraqi hospital sources said.

Several strikes on the village of Zoba, some 7kms south of the city of Falluja, demolished 13 houses, the sources and witnesses said early on Friday morning.

"We have received 25 wounded, 15 dead, and more are coming in the ambulances," Ahmad Thaer, a doctor at the Falluja general hospital said.

Witness Ahmad Sulayman told AFP at the hospital: "I counted at least 27 bodies in the wreckage of the houses and many casualties were taken to Abu Ghraib hospital."

Thaer also said one person was killed and nine wounded in another raid on Falluja's Shuhada neighbourhood, which has been repeatedly targeted by the US air force.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/70C17B60-8D11-4702-9C54-34EDEB51693A.htm

[bluestateguy]

1. 16 killed. Hundreds of new insurgents created.

Just wait until after the election when US troops are greeted with flowers and kisses in Fallujah.

[saigon68]

14. WE'LL BOMB THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGE--- CURTIS LEMAY

God father and Moral Guide Post of the BUSH CRIMINALS

[Cooley Hurd]

22. LeMay was a whack job of the first order...

A cigar-chomping general straight from central casting, isn't he?

[Jacobin]

23. Wasn't he George Wallace's running mate?

Tells you something about him.

[bemildred]

35. Yes, he was, tells you something about both of them. nt

[wtmusic]

2. cowards...that's exactly what it is

don't have to look in their eyes at 2,000 feet. Bastards.

[tibbir]

3. I can't believe what we've created over there.

And just to be sure they hate us, let's bomb houses at night. How does this square with Iraq being a sovereign nation?

[saigon68]

190. Kick

[Darranar]

4. Another "al-Zarqawi safe house"?

He's getting more and more ubiquitous these days....

This is another atrocity.

[Aidoneus]

7. see the military's version..

'U.S. Launches Anti-Zarqawi Attacks'
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=6&u=/ap/20040917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_zarqawi

To some degree, these "news" organizations must be held accountable for the crimes they assist like this.

[ze_dscherman]

5. Update: 60 killed

U.S. Says Kills 60 Foreign Fighters in Iraq Strike

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. warplanes bombed rebel targets near the restive Iraqi city of Falluja on Thursday, killing about 60 foreign fighters, the U.S. military said on Friday.

Doctors at a Falluja hospital said 16 civilians were killed in an air strike, including women and children. Reuters television images showed bloodied bodies on hospital beds.

A statement from the U.S. military said the assault was part of a "precision strike" on an compound used by militants loyal to Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a man Washington says is allied to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

SNIP

U.S. forces have carried out around a dozen air strikes over recent weeks on Falluja, a Sunni stronghold west of Baghdad which has fallen into rebel hands. The U.S. offensive is part of a push to retake pockets controlled by insurgents ahead of national elections set for January.

http://news.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6261081

[Darranar]

26. "Precision strike"?

Do they actually expect us to believe this junk?

How can 16 civilians die in a "precision strike"?

[bemildred]

32. "Precision" means:

1.) Only used a few bombs.
2.) Most bombs hit near where they were aimed.

Unlike a B-52, which just drops a whole shitload of bombs
and hopes they hit something by luck.

But you are right, "precision bombing" is an oxymoron. The
whole idea with a bomb is to make a big mess, nothing precise
about it.

[Career Prole]

62. It's the "smart bomb" oxymoron. If you can drop it on a dime but

the explosion's as big as a parking lot it detracts considerably from the "precision" of it all. We've not come very far at all over the centuries.
I'm starting to think that because repukes don't believe evolution happens they've become somehow "evolution-resistant". That would explain why they still act like cavemen.

[saigon68]

99. They are thugs and Hoodlums

These are war crimes

[minkyboodle]

6. duplicate (see ze_dscherman's post)

[JSJ]

8. thanks, troops-you da man! nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. Doctors at a Falluja hospital said 16 civilians were killed in an air

strike

Yah, day da man freeper

[JSJ]

13. that's terrible- but we should always support the troops...

...that's what the politicians say, anyway.

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. I'll bet you do.

BTW, what is you name on the other site?

[Aidoneus]

16. Subtle sarcasm is sometimes difficult to pick up..

wouldn't you say?

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. Right, you da man nt

[JSJ]

19. sorry- thought i was more transparent nt

[IwoVet1945]

36. I wonder....

....will you spit in the troops face when they come home?

[bemildred]

37. Do you approve of the bombing and killing children?

[IwoVet1945]

38. Did I say that?

Did I say that? No, I didn't. Just asked a simple question.

[bemildred]

40. Did he say anything about spitting on the troops?

No, he didn't say that either.

[IwoVet1945]

41. No he didn't.

So I asked him the question.

To answer your question, no I do not believe in killing innocents civilians but it does happen in war.

[bemildred]

42. So as long as you say you are in a war, it's OK to kill kids?

Like, it there is some chance you might be able to kill some
guys you want to kill, it's OK to kill a bunch of kids while
you are at it? Killing kids is just an unfortunate side effect?

Or maybe, morally, one should wait for a better chance, let the
kids live, rather than risk their lives with such careless
disregard?

[IwoVet1945]

44. Story for you.

My older brother was a mortarman during the war (WW2). His unit was ordered to shell an intersection in the Normandy area. Uknown to him and his officers but the Germans had withdrawn from the small town at the intersection. The civilians had come out of their shelters thinking the fighting was over. Well, after the shelling, his unit moved through the town and found that their mortars had killed at least 40 civilians, half of them children.

Were these American mortarmen criminals?

[bemildred]

48. The folks who drop the bombs know perfectly well what the bombs do.

When you drop bombs into the middle of a populated city at
2:45 AM, there is no ambiguity about what is going to happen.

Your older brother and his comrades at least have the excuse
that they did not know, the fellows that ordered and carried
out this bombing have no such excuse. It is a terrorist act,
done in the full knowledge of what it will do.

I cannot address the issue of criminality, but I would wager
that your brother and his comrades had the good grace to feel
bad about it and to try to avoid such things.

[IwoVet1945]

49. Hmmmm.

"the fellows that ordered and carried
out this bombing have no such excuse."

Can you prove the pilots that dropped these bombs knew that?

[bemildred]

50. Are you trying to assert bomber pilots don't know what bombs do? nt

[IwoVet1945]

53. No.

They know goddamn well what their bombs do and if they don't their asses had better be grounded. As far as what they hit that is up to intel. It can be correct, flawed, or change without notice.

[Bridget Burke]

55. My father & two uncles were 8th Air Force veterans.

I never spent much time with the uncles & they died years ago. My father was called up again for the "Cold War" & died in a training accident, so I don't remember him. Mom said he never talked about the war. I can't think of them as murderers.

But that was a different war. We didn't start it. All these smug "there are always civilian casualties" comments might have meaning in a war we had to fight. But all the casualties in Iraq--civilian & military--could have been avoided.

[IwoVet1945]

56. Not for this war either.

As for the "smug" comments about civilians and casualties of war it is just a grim fact in 20th Century warfare (21st also) like it or not.

Millions of civilians were killed in WW2, the so called "good war". (I served in the Pacific and there was not a goddamned good thing about it)

Tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in this war.

Neither is better than the other.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

173. LOL -- Excellent!

I, for one, simply do not believe it.

But then, I think my fellow DUers are often far too generous and willing to believe anybody who claims to have a military background.

Must be all the years I spent on Usenet that turned me into a cynic.

[IwoVet1945]

175. Well then we agree on something

It is good to be a cynic.

26/5th Marine Division Iwo Jima 1945.

[MacDo]

59. I totally agree we don't need this war.

If we hadn't started it, the terrorists that are literally tripping over themselves in Iraq to kill an American soldier, would be here killing us. That would be much better, right?

[Career Prole]

64. Oh Lord...you've been hannitized. Is this the "flypaper gambit" you're

trying to play?
Welcome to DU BTW, for however long you hold up.

[MacDo]

68. Ahh you're so smart

but you never considered I was just a soldier, and don't like the way we are getting bashed in this thread. Contrary to popular belief, we don't kill women and children for fun.

[Career Prole]

73. "Never considered"? Bullshit! There are more veterans here than at

any three non-military conservative sites, dude.
I evidently missed something. Did someone here accuse our troops of killing women and children "for fun"?
I find that unlikely.

[MacDo]

75. Not you personally

but this thread is full of hate for the military. Reply 46 is a great example, makes me proud.

[Career Prole]

88. I have seen the reply. Try to bear in mind that this is a forum by

Democrats, for Democrats. There are as many different shadings in our party as in the other.
You should be aware that this war is considered by the overwhelming majority of us to be illegal and immoral and while some like myself place the blame completely on the civilian leadership, you'll also find some who feel that there can be no legal killing in an illegal war. She has her right to speak here, and you have your right to debate it with her if you wish.
On the other hand you could go to a conservative website for discussion where you'll be discussing the issues with regular conservatives, but also conservatives who wish gays would all die from AIDS, conservatives who want your C in C to nuke entire countries to the ground for the acts of a few, and conservatives who see no value in any person not born white and American, among others.
Shadings on both sides...like Barack Obama said.
As a soldier you have my support, but don't expect that support to apply also to this war.
We are unanimous here in wanting you out of there. :)

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IwoVet1945]

70. What are you saying?

What are you saying? As a very long time Democrat who voted for Truman in 1948 (was too young in 1944) am I not welcome here. As a matter of fact I have voted in every elction since and not once for a republican. Are Veterans and Democrats that do not bash military personel not welcome here?

[hatrack]

71. I was not responding to you, but to MacDo's post

If you'll check the thread lines at the bottom of the original post, you'll see that.

[IwoVet1945]

72. Thanks for the clarification.

However, I agree with what he posted below.

[MacDo]

74. It doesn't matter

Same situation applies. I came to this forum for a chance to discuss things rationally with what I thought would be like minded thinkers. However, after reading just one thread, and becoming a baby killer, I might have been wrong.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MacDo]

80. First off

Who is Michael Savage?
Second, most of the "Guerrilla fighters" you are talking about come from outside Iraq. They come there to conduct their "Jihad" against American soldiers because travel is easy and they blend in with the local population.
Third, since when has it been difficult to enter the US illegally? Seems 100's do it each day, and in only takes a few to wreak havoc.

[leftchick]

79. even if what you said were true....

you know, the RW line about better to kill them "over there". If you actually stoppedand thought about it, how do you think the Iraqis feel now that the US has opened the floodgates of radical extremists into their country. THAT WERE NOT THERE BEFORE??? Or does it not matter because they are brown and Muslim?

[MacDo]

84. I know how the Iraqi's feel

they are pissed off that these terrorists from other countries are trying to destroy their new Democracy before it even gets off the ground. Who do you think provides the intel for these "precision bombings" in the middle of the night, that made you so quick to call me a terrorist?

[NickB79]

178. You do realize what kind of government they will elect, right?

Over 60% of the country is radical Shiite Muslim, the same sect that controls IRAN. Once free, democratic elections are held, they will take power through numbers alone and turn Iraq into a mini-Iran, complete with repressive fundamentalist laws based on a strict interpretation of the Koran. It's sad that the Iraqis will probably end up having LESS freedom under their democratically elected government than they had under Saddam.

This is the freedom we're gonna give to the Iraqi people?

[saigon68]

96. Classic disruptor

So what did you do to point out this would turn out to be IRAQ-NAM ?

Or did you just "as a loyal democrat" go along with the AWOL CHIMPANZEE

And what's with this accusing people of "SPITTING ON THE VETS" ?

[IwoVet1945]

100. See below my fellow vet.

[saigon68]

115. DO YOU ENJOY HER WORK???

[IwoVet1945]

122. No, do you?

[saigon68]

182. How'd you like beating up the protesters ?

[jayfish]

87. That Argument Is Grounds For Prosecution Of...

War-Crimes against the administration at worst and cowardly at best. Not to mention just downright false. What you are saying is that we invaded a sovereign nation for the express purpose of inviting, foreign, third-party combatants to fight us there. Thats similar to your neighbor breaking into your house, kicking your ass to the curb, then putting up signs in your front yard that say "steal my shit" so his house won't get broken into. It's also pretty chicken-shit motivation. Are you afraid to fight REAL terrorists in your own back yard? I thought Republicans were the tough guys?

Jay

[MacDo]

92. I'm not saying that

The war shouldn't have been started, I agree. One of the unintended results was the terrorists flocking to Iraq to kill soldiers.
No I'm not afraid of fighting "real" terrorists in my back yard, just rather do it in theirs.
Oh, and I get it, only republicans join the military. What do you do for America?

[DrWeird]

107. Maybe you should turn off Fox News.

Because there are no "foreign terrorists" flocking to Iraq. That was debunked months ago.

The people killing US troops are Iraqis. They don't want us there. That's why they're killing us and huge crowds are cheering for it. And they're not really terrorists, since they're targeting the military.

Btw, isn't it awful cowardly to be supporting the war while not enlisting? What's your excuse?

[MacDo]

111. Didn't see you there either.

What news have you been watching?

I've been there. Most of the Iraqi's want us there.

[DrWeird]

113. I don't support the war.

Is it some kind of republican fashion statement to lie about military service?

[MacDo]

117. So now I'm in the same catagory as Bush?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MacDo]

121. Because I'm in the military? NT

[DrWeird]

124. No, because you support the war.

Kind of like the terrorists that support 9-11 are just goons for Osama bin Laden.

[MacDo]

128. I do not support the war!

I'm enlisted, I have to serve my time. I have however found myself supporting the Iraqi's who have found freedom for the first time in their lives. Most are grateful, some are not.
I will be separating next year, with the hope that at least some of what we did was right.

[Flagg]

170. No man. They really really don't.;

And even if you've been hanytized or limbaughed my freeper friend, you know it too.

[jayfish]

132. Iraq Isn't Their Back Yard, It's A Neighbors Down The Street.

I'm not talking about joining the military so you didn't "get it". I'm talking about people who clamor for death until it arrives at their door-stop. What do I do for America? I'm paying for this disaster of a Presidency and my kids will too.

Jay

[MacDo]

133. Excuse me.

I do believe I am paying for it too. It was my butt on the line.

[jayfish]

136. Your Service Is Comendable...

but your reasoning is suspect.

[SammyWinstonJack]

193. LOL

They're everywhere! :scared:

[saigon68]

194. Amazing how they arrive at those conclussions

It's reverse Osmosis of the Brain

[coalition_unwilling]

125. Might have meaning if it wasn't so one-sided

Germans killed plenty of civilians, some by accident some on purpose. You don't see the Iraqi Air Force bombing our cities in the middle of the night.

[bemildred]

60. A pedophile can give you lots of reasons why sex between

adults and children is a good thing. One does not therefore conclude
that the Pedo is not a pervert.

The pilot knows what the bombs do and he knows where he is dropping
them. His moral culpability is clear whether he chooses to face it
or not, and also whether you choose to face it or not. People are
judged by their actions, not the excuses and deflections they come
up with. If the words "war crime" mean anything at all, this is
a war crime, deliberate killing of innocent civilians in a speculative
attempt to get some enemy soldiers, assuming you take the intent of
the bombing at face value.

Why do you think they bombed at 2:45 AM? Because they don't actually
have any idea where the fuck the guys attacking them are, that's why,
and they were hoping there might be some of them home at that time.
:puke:

[IwoVet1945]

65. I Paul Tibbets a war criminal?

Should he have been put in jail for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima?
What about all of those other bomber pilots and crews from WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I? War criminals?

I hope you never have to fight in a war (or revolution).

[IwoVet1945]

66. sorry, typo in above post.

should have read:

Is Paul Tibbets...

My sights not too good these days.

[bemildred]

76. I said:

"If the words "war crime" mean anything at all, this is a war crime"

The qualifier is there for a reason. I'm not at all sure that "war
crime" does make sense, it is sort of a tautology, all war is criminal
in nature, and aggressive (as opposed to defensive) wars especially
so. In any case, the notion of criminal requires the notion of law,
and one must then inquire as to whose law it is that rules the
situation, and how it is to be enforced, and by whom? As you point
out, one rapidly finds that the idea of "crime" falls apart once the
civil peace is disrupted, there are no rules in war.

Basicly, one is a fool to unleash the dogs of war in the expectation
that some sort of rules or law will protect one from the consequences
of unleashed violence. "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

In most cases being a "war criminal" seems to mean you lost the war
and someone wants to make an example of you for political advantage.

I will make this deal: I will stop making moral arguments about the
actions of US servicemembers, if I don't have to listen to similar
crap about the actions of those we are fighting with. If I don't
have to listen to anymore propagandistic crap about "terrorists who
only want to kill as many innocents as possible" then I will overlook
the moral vacuity of bombing the crap out of civilians at 2:45AM on
the pretext that maybe there might have been some bads guys around too.

I share your hope for my peaceful future. I wish you the same.

Edit: some spelling issues.

[Dhalgren]

78. If you consider this "war" to be equal to any other war,

regardless of whether we started it for no reason at all; then you must believe that the fellows who destroyed the WTC were also "just soldiers". They knew some civilians would be killed, but "that's war" - right? You can't justify and explain away US crimes during war, but then try and hold all of our enemies (who are referred to as "terrorists" these days) for their crimes. If you say, "but the WTC was just civilians" then I'll refer you to your own statement regarding WWII. You can't say that we weren't at war with the Saudis who flew those planes into the WTC, because your President says that we have been at war with these people for years. If you are simply going to say the war justifies everything if you are an American, but not is you aren't, then we have no more to discuss; if you say war justifies everything for everyone, then the Nuremberg trials were a crime. You can't have it both ways (even thought that's what you want).

[MacDo]

89. Please let me butt in

OK, I'm missing the point I guess. The terrorists(or soldiers) that flew the planes into the WTC intended on killing as many innocent civilians as possible....and.....the accidental civilian causalities by the US military are the same thing to you?
As far as your WWII reference, I believe it was said the soldiers did not know they were bombing civilians.

[DrWeird]

129. No, no, no. They weren't trying to kill civilians.

If they had been, they wouldn't have done it so early in the morning. They were just targetting military targets. You know, HQ's and key financial centers.

Those dead civilians were just collateral damage.

Hey, don't blame me. It's your logic.

[saigon68]

98. Adios--- those are Straw men Arguments you are here to cause trouble.

[IwoVet1945]

105. Sorry, but you are wrong.

Cause trouble? I have been a proud Democrat for 56 years and have supported many Progressive causes in that time. Just because we may differ on the view of the military and on war in general then I am a disrupter?

As for my question about Mr. Tibbets, I feel it is a legitimate question. Sorry if you feel differently.

[DrWeird]

109. What's the real difference...

between Mr. Tibbets and the 9-11 hijackers? I mean, there are a few obvious differences. The 9-11 hijackers killed themselves in the act. Mr. Tibbets killed a lot more civilians. So is one really better then the other?

[IwoVet1945]

130. He ended a war.

A war that had cost millions of lives.

[DrWeird]

135. So what you're saying is...

Osama bin Laden would have been an OK guy if the US had surrendered?

[IwoVet1945]

141. So what your saying is....

that America declared a war with Bin Laden and we killed millions of people including tens of thousands of his soldiers?

Are you voting for Mr. Kerry?

[DrWeird]

174. No, the US didn't declare war on bin Laden.

If we had, we would be in Pakistan right now.

Instead we declared war on Iraq, killing tens of thousands of their soldiers, tens of thousands of their civilians, and who knows how many millions will be dead before we're through. The US sanctions alone have killed over a million children.

Where have you been?

[saigon68]

185. Straw man Argument

The Generals and Colonels at Abu Ghraib are International War Criminals

The Yamashita principle.

He allowed his men to exist in a medium where war crimes would be committed.

The US guards at Abu Ghraib are also thugs and Hoodlums.

[saigon68]

192. I don't know Mr. Tibbets

WTF does he have to do with Iraq-Nam and the war criminals killing the women and Children?

[saigon68]

101. No but in following the Puppet allawi many pilots

Are becoming War criminals

Ever hear of Guernica---didn't think so

[bemildred]

102. Guernica was the first.

Invented by the Nazis.
By their works shall you know them, indeed.

[MARALE]

85. Did you know

The people that spit in the faces of Viet Nam Vets were Repubs at their convention? During the war, Viet Nam vets were protesting the war and the repubs spit in their faces. Nobody here would spit in the faces of returning military because they went to this war. We just want the killing stopped. There were not terrorist in Iraq before this war and now we are having to fight them as well as the Iraqis. This war is unwinnable and we need to get out as soon as we can.

[IwoVet1945]

91. republicans were not the only ones

I had "confrontations" with so-called anti-war "peace" activists on my return from Vietnam. I witnessed many of my young Marines who were minding their own business being assaulted by these people. The young Marines only faults were they were in uniform. This had been going on for some time and I finally said enough was enough. Lets just say those "peace" activists didn't eat any solid foods for several weeks once I got ahold of them. I make no apologies!

I served in three wars, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. Before you ask, yes I beleived in our cause in Vietnam, just not the way we were fighting it.

[saigon68]

110. IRAQ-NAM

A place where a lot of Cowardly lifers get their tickets punched and the poor get killed.

[saigon68]

112. There was NO CAUSE in Viet-Nam

2 million Vietnamese were Burned and Blasted into atoms

[DrWeird]

123. Those poor Marines.

Ever think about those poor Vietnamese who were minding their own business that were assaulted by you people?

[IwoVet1945]

127. Answer

The Vietnamese that I knew wanted us to help them. I do not believe we should have used conventional forces is what I am trying to say. The war should have been fought by the S. Vietnamese and with help from our Special Operations (if requested).

If the S. Vietnamese would not fight for themselves then so be it. As what finally happened in 75.

[MARALE]

163. I don't want you to make apologies

I do respect that you fought for what you believed in. I am a vet and have 2 uncles that went to Viet Nam. It is this war right now that I am worried about. I am worried sick about all the soldiers dying over there for no good reason. What reasons are we dying and killing over there? There is no connection between 911 and Iraq. We should have taken care of the Teliban first and not rushed into a war that is killing our kids and Iraqis for no good reason. Most want us out. Most think it was better when Saddam was in charge. I am NOT a Saddam apologist but that is how bad things over there are. This is not a game! We are killing people every day! Most countries dislike us and not just because of the war. We need a real leader that will respect other countries and will work to better our world, not rebuild it into chaos.

[IwoVet1945]

169. Semper FI

I agree that we should have never have gone into Iraq, I just have a beef with people who like to call US Military Men and Women war criminals. This really ticks me off, no matter if they are a Democrat or republican. The real criminal is sitting in Washington.

[saigon68]

180. How'd you like beating the Crap out of the Anti-War protesters

You know the ones you bragged beating up above.

Make you feel like a man

No Only Thuggish Hoodlums beat up protesters.

[saigon68]

191. kick

[PittLib]

198. you are unbelievable...

and bruttish and completely out of line.

[PittLib]

199. Not all of us feel this way ...

I'm hopping on this very late because I disagree with much of what is being said and believe it to be misguided anger. You made valid points and I appreciate your input. I hope this won't deter you from returning. :)

[study_war_no_more]

200. i dont remember spittin in anyones face but i sure hugged my friends

Does anyone actually know if spittin was as widespread as they make it out to be? I remember my friends saying thank you for getting us out of there and i remember alot just didn't want to talk about Nam and other vetrens acting like they lost a war and were a disgrace. Im not saying it didnt happen Im just saying i didn't see it?

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. How many of these" foreign fighters"

will be little children by the morning??? This stinks of fraud to me.
This is the same shit I remember hearing during Vietnam.

[Scurrilous]

18. Pic of injured 'foreign fighter'....

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/478542.html




An Iraqi girl receiving treatment at a
Fallujah hospital Friday after sustaining
injuries during U.S. airstrikes. (AP)

[mike_c]

10. al-Zarqawi is actually Emmanuel Goldstein....

We have always been at war with Iraq.

[bemildred]

31. Yes, and all foreign-fighter terrorists killed by the

glorious coalition armed forces are closely associated
with the traitor-terrorist Goldstein-al Zarqawi, who is
more and more completely defeated with every day ...

Or they were once, or might have been some day when they
grew up, or at least they might have thought about it, you
can never be too careful in dealing with possible terrorist
sympathizers.

Fortunately, soon, when Goldstein-al Zarqawi is finally defeated,
we will be able to reinstitute the rule of law and respect for
human rights in the new democratic Iraq, making all this bombing
and random killing of children worth while. :puke:

[Voltaire99]

11. This is shameful

Slaughtering innocents makes America less safe and more hated. It's really time for the Democratic Party to speak out against this war.

[Tripmann]

20. Ah yes,

Give them liberty or give them death. And this is supposed to make America more secure? HOW??

Tripmann

[SammyWinstonJack]

195. Good question for the Mission Accomplished

Commander Codpiece Idiot in Charge of Death and Destruction, Unelected Fraud!

[tlcandie]

21. So, when all is decimated and all but a few Iraqis left .. we will have

massacred them all for the death of a 1-2 bad men? Needle in haystack. Makes no sense at all to indiscriminately bomb innocent people to rid the world of sensitive military equipment OR 1-2, touted, criminals.

I guess this is how you clear or make way for new buildings and capitalism now?

:cry:

[EthanAllenVt]

24. Here's a more accurate report on the precision strike

http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/news_release.asp?NewsRelease=20040953.txt

PRECISION STRIKE IN FALLUJAH

FALLUJAH, Iraq – With the authorization of Prime Minister Allawi, Multi-National Forces-Iraq conducted a precision strike and destroyed a terrorist compound known to be used by the Abu Musab Al Zarqawi terrorists for the planning of activity subversive to the Iraqi Government and it’s people.

In response to multiple reports, Multi-National Force – Iraq conducted a successful precision strike on the compound located in the south-central part of Fallujah, at approximately 02:45 this morning.

The terrorists targeted in this strike were believed to be associated with recent bombing attacks and other terrorist activities throughout Iraq that have resulted in the deaths of numerous Iraqi citizens.

The government of Iraq, the Iraqi Security Forces and Multi-National Force-Iraq are committed to finding and ridding Iraq of terrorist elements.

[Aidoneus]

25. a priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar..

sit down, order a drink. The bartender turns to them and asks:--"is this some kind of joke?"

(the variation with the duck/"did you hear the one about us?" is better, but doesn't fit with what I meant to ask here)

[Darranar]

27. Thank you for the official propaganda...

it is nice to know that those 16 Iraqi civilians were nothing but "terrorists" in the eyes of their benevolent liberators....

[truth2power]

45. Also, did you notice the Orwellian-speak in that Centcom piece?....

"With the authorization of Prime Minister Allawi, Multi-National Forces-Iraq conducted a precision strike...."

Covering their asses, aren't they? Since Iraq is now "sovereign", it would be unseemly to admit that the American military is still bombing the living shit out of innocent civilians.

So, let's see...this was authorized by the non-puppet Allawi and carried out by the US military, aka: Multi-National Forces-Iraq.

See? Our hands are clean. I want to :puke: :puke:

[NNN0LHI]

28. Here is an even more accurate portrayal bub

A badly wounded Iraqi girl receives medical treatment at a hospital in Fallujah. At least 44 people were killed as US forces continued their relentless strikes against targets allegedly connected to Al-Qaeda-linked extremist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi near Fallujah.(AFP/Fares Dlimi)

A wounded Iraqi boy lies in his hospital bed in Fallujah after several overnight air raids hit his village of Zoba. US forces launched an overnight onslaught against the network of extremist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.(AFP/Fares Dlimi)

A man who lost several family members during a U.S. airstrike, sits near the graves after burying them at Qurush, near Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Friday Sept. 17, 2004. U.S. forces launched attacks late Thursday night and early Friday morning in the Sunni insurgent strongholds of Fallujah and Ramadi, killing up to 60 insurgents in strikes against allies of terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a military statement said. Dr. Ali Awad of the Fallujah General Hospital said 30 people were killed and more than 40 were injured, including women and children. (AP Photo/Bilal Hussein)

A young girl receives treatment at a hospital on Friday after sustaining injuries during US air strikes late Thursday night and early Friday morning in Fallujah, Iraq. Hospital officials say at least 30 people were killed and 40 wounded in US strikes on Fallujah and nearby villages. - AP

[llmart]

29. Info that comes from centcom......

is deemed "more accurate?" You are sadly mistaken. Those of us from the VietNam war era know better.

[truth2power]

47. After posting below, I just had to come back and say...

Were you joking about this being an "accurate report". LMAO!

[saigon68]

94. It's just another war crime

I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

[DamOTclese]

149. "Precision slaughter"

Apparently slaughtering 16 civilians is considered a "precision strike" by this fascist regime. Either that or it's an admission by the regime that they're deliberately targeting children.

[leftchick]

30. BBC update.... 17 CHILDREN murdered!

by the cowardly Imperial US Occupiers. 44 dead people as of this morning. These numbers came from the (US appointed) Iraqi Ministry of Health. Perhaps they are getting sick of the slaughter as well.

[Darranar]

33. More "terrorists" killed in this "precision strike" n/t

[Tripmann]

39. "Precision strike"...

should always be emphasised with double quotes! You may be able to drop bombs down chimneys but does the resulting blast throw rubble and shrapnel with precision?? This is another disgrace, and unfortunately for the chimp-in-chief and his cronies, the world is not desensitising itself to these pictures.

Tripmann

[Rockholm]

34. It Just Keeps Getting Better. Thanks George.

George "Bring 'em On" Bush. Look slike it just keeps getting brought on and on. This so-called "war" of YOURS needs to stop. Just what is it you want "brought on?" MORE terrorism in the US? That's what we a going to get. God, I want you OUT OF OFFICE and all your friggin' cronies.

[Tracer]

43. Tell me please ...

what is the difference between "precision bombings" and "terrorist car bombings"?

Both kill innocent bystanders.

Both are targeted at a particular area.

You might as well call the car bombing a "Precision Car Bombing and the airstrikes as "Terrorist Bombings".

I see no difference and it makes me sick.

[leftchick]

46. None! The US Military is one and the same as the

Terrorists they claim they are fighting.

[MacDo]

57. Thanks for your support

I love civilians too

[MacDo]

58. "precision bombings"

are conducted by guided munitions on a known target, with minimum collateral damage.

"terrorist car bombings" are conducted by misguided terrorists whose intend is to kill as many innocent people as possible while maximizing damage.

There, now ya know the difference

[leftchick]

82. tell that to the parents of the 17 dead children.....

no difference to them at all. That is why they scream and wail "American Terrorists" everytime the US kills their loved ones.
But then you don't seem like you care much for the average Iraqi.

[MacDo]

95. Link please? NT

[leftchick]

97. I would not give you a link to anything....

like it would actually make a difference.

[MacDo]

104. Facts always make a difference NT

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MacDo]

114. Boot me cuz I'm a soldier?

Who doesn't like being called a terrorist. Real deep

[Dhalgren]

86. You are so completely wrong that it begs the question:

"Are you stupid or just think that we are?" A "terrorist" is an enemy that kills civilians for their own reasons. This is the description of the US military as far as the Iraqis are concerned. No one gives a good goddamn what YOU think - what do the Iraqis who are under the bombs think? If you go into another country and kill civilians, it doesn't really matter what you intended, it only matters that the dead are dead because of you, regardless of what your after action excuses are.

[MacDo]

103. "Are you stupid or just think that we are?"

A "terrorist" is an enemy that kills civilians for their own reasons. This is the description of the US military as far as the Iraqis are concerned.

Funny I didn't see you over there. Ones I talked too thanked us for being there. Only the ones shooting at us seem to have a problem.

No one gives a good goddamn what YOU think

The Iraqi's loved talking to me.

what do the Iraqis who are under the bombs think?

Nothing, they're dead. Ratted out by the Iraqi's that want a free country.

If you go into another country and kill civilians, it doesn't really matter what you intended, it only matters that the dead are dead because of you, regardless of what your after action excuses are.

Yes, the dead are dead because of us, we were trained well.

[leftchick]

116. She looks like she would LOVE to kiss a US Soldier right now....

Why don't you go on back and let her?




An Iraqi woman cries next to her son, who was wounded in attack by U.S. aircraft, according to doctors, in the hospital in the town of Falluja, September 17, 2004. U.S. warplanes bombed rebel targets near the restive Iraqi city of Falluja on Thursday, killing about 60 foreign fighters, the U.S. military said on Friday. Doctors said 16 civilians were killed in an air strike, including women and children. REUTERS/Mohammed Khodor

[MacDo]

118. Believe it or not

I'm actually sorry for her, but not the 60 foreign fighters who came there to kill us.

[DrWeird]

126. "60 foreign fighters"

When did six-year-old Iraqi children become "foreign fighters"?

[MacDo]

131. six-year-old Iraqi children

When did "foreign fighters" become 60 Iraqi children?

[DrWeird]

134. Here's your 60 foreign fighters.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/iraq/082701iraqplane&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=33&a=&printer=

Do you believe everything the military tells you? Or just the bullshit that turns babies into terrorists.

[MacDo]

137. I've read that.

Message:
killing about 60 foreign fighters, the U.S. military said on Friday. Doctors said 16 civilians were killed in an air strike, including women and children

Forget the fact you keep overlooking the 60 foreign fighters that were killed. do you really believe we meant to kill 16 civilians? Most of us have kids too. I do not support the war, but I am happy that 60 more terrorists are gone. Maybe Kerry will find a better way, but for now this is what we are stuck with.

The military is not evil!

[DrWeird]

138. Yes. Like I asked...

do you believe everything the military tells you? Like how those 16 women and children were 60 foreign fighters, and how that wedding was really a terrorist camp, and how Saddam had WMDs and was ready to use them?

[MacDo]

139. No I don't

believe everything, just like I refuse to believe everyone here hates the military just because you don't support the war.

[Darranar]

140. So you believe what the US military tells you?

Why?

[MacDo]

142. Never

I always like to read the press, but it's not always available.

[Darranar]

143. It's clear that numerous civilians were slaughtered...

and the only evidence that insurgents were killed is from the US military, not the most trustworthy source.

Even if there were "insurgents" killed, it was still a largely indiscriminate strike that needlessly killed dozens of innocent people. It could have been done at a better time or at a better place, and been just as effective in "pacifying" Iraq while not killing so many innocents. This attack was despicable and atrocious.

[MacDo]

144. "pacifying" Iraq while not killing so many innocents

Where do you think the intel for this strike was generated? It came from the Iraqi's themselves. That's how it works now. They ask for help on a target, and we give it to them. I'm very sorry civilians lost their lives!

[Darranar]

145. The puppet government has no real control over these matters...

they may give their "approval", knowing that their continued survival depends on the US protecting them, but they aren't actually making the decisions.

Why do you think there was any strong intelligence supporting this strike? If there was, wouldn't the US have known that there were innocent civilians there? If they did, and attacked as they did, isn't that an atrocity?

[MacDo]

147. strong intelligence supporting this strike?

We don't have any boots on the ground in Falluja. The show there is run entirely by the Iraqi's. They say bomb, we bomb. Sad, but true.

[Darranar]

153. WHICH Iraqis? n/t

[MacDo]

154. Don't understand the Question. nt

[Darranar]

155. Which Iraqis are telling the US where to strike? n/t

[MacDo]

157. The local population.

When they spot a group of foreign fighters. They report it to the local Iraqi GOV and they either take care of it themselves, or ask for US help.

[Darranar]

158. Have any evidence for that? n/t

[MacDo]

160. No, just me

and I'm in the military, so I must be full of it. I'm sure the news has reported we have handed over control to the Iraqi's, and the fact we don't have any troops in Fallujah.

[Darranar]

162. The latter is true, yes...

because the American forces were defeated there a few months ago.

But the former is true only in theory, the real power in Iraq remains the United States.

[MacDo]

164. What?

American forces were not defeated there? We pulled out before it got out of control and the whole place got leveled. You were being almost semi intelligent with your questions for awhile, but now you borderline silly. We do not go after targets by ourselves anymore unless directly attacked.
I was hoping to find people I could relate to on this site about changing our leadership, but instead find a bunch of military bashers. You do know Kerry was in the military right? I wish he could read some of this thread.

[Darranar]

186. I don't believe I have bashed the military yet...

except by calling their propaganda organs dishonest, which is true of most militaries and governments.

I am not a fan of Kerry, but for quite different reasons than him having been in the military. Being in the military is not a bad thing, it is some of the things done by members of the military that are bad. Furthermore, Kerry returned and blasted the aggressive, murderous war in which he had participated.

Similarly, I have never, as far as I can remember, bashed all US soldiers. Sure, some, especially in the higher levels, are war criminals, but plenty are simply performing what they are told to do. I support the troops so strongly that I hope they are sent home immediately, before more of them can kill and be killed, with horrible results for both them and Iraqis.

Generally, when a military force launches a bloody and destructive assault on a city, then withdraws and leaves the city in the hands of its enemies, it is considered a defeat. Whether the defeat was military or political in nature is irrelevant; it was still a defeat.

[NNN0LHI]

172. Tell the truth. Its not just Falluja where US soldiers can't go

There are over 3 dozen Iraqi cities which have been declared no-go zones for the US military. Should we try a little more shock and awe on all of them until they submit?

Just what in the fuck do you think we are going to accomplish in Iraq? Try and be realistic with your assessment. No pie in the sky crap.

Don

[DamOTclese]

151. "Foreign fighters"

So when did innocent people fighting for their homes and for their lives become "terrorists?"

[MacDo]

156. innocent people

So when did "terrorists" fighting for their homes and for their lives become innocent people? Get my point? The military is not the enemy here, the CINC is. Vote him out

[Darranar]

159. So people fighting for their homes and lives are terrorists?

No, they aren't, and they aren't "foreign fighters" or "anti-Iraqi forces" either.

[MacDo]

161. Source? nt

[Darranar]

187. A source for what? n/t

[DamOTclese]

150. What an idiot

The Iraqis that want to live in a free country are the ones fighting against the fascist regime that invaded them and started indiscriminately slaughtering their children.

What would you do? Would you stand aside and do nothing if Russia were to murder your children with cluster munitions, invade your country, shoot your neighbors, your elected government officials, kidnap, rape, murder, and torture your friends, and then set up a mock puppet regime whose strings leads all the way back to Russia?

Is that what you would do?

These Iraqis are fighting for their lives, their children's lives, and their homes against a genocidal fascist regime. And for the audacity of these people defending themselves and their homelands, the invading fascists label them "terrorists" -- and then idiots like you come along and try to pretend the invading monsters are some how loved by the people they're murdering.

Amazing.

[MacDo]

152. How many Iraqi's do you know?

Wow, I'm glad you know how Iraq works. How long were you there?

[saigon68]

93. YOU DON'T UNFORTUNATELY

Dropping a 2000 lb bomb on a residential neighborhood is murder and a War Crime

[Darranar]

120. "minimum collateral damage"...

doesn't quite apply in this case....

[Magleetis]

51. It bothers me greatly

to know that soldiers that represent me are killing and maiming innocent people. The America that I served and loved no longer exists. We are the death star! It is hard to come to grips with the fact that for the rest of my time on this earth I will be hated for what a few stupid, greedy, shortsighted idiots have done.

[Barrett808]

52. Riverbend: Fahrenheit 9/11...

We have 9/11’s on a monthly basis. Each and every Iraqi person who dies with a bullet, a missile, a grenade, under torture, accidentally- they all have families and friends and people who care. The number of Iraqis dead since March 2003 is by now at least eight times the number of people who died in the World Trade Center. They had their last words, and their last thoughts as their worlds came down around them, too. I’ve attended more wakes and funerals this last year, than I’ve attended my whole life. The process of mourning and the hollow words of comfort have become much too familiar and automatic.

September 11… he sat there, reading the paper. As he reached out for the cup in front of him for a sip of tea, he could vaguely hear the sound of an airplane overhead. It was a bright, fresh day and there was much he had to do… but the world suddenly went black- a colossal explosion and then crushed bones under the weight of concrete and iron… screams rose up around him… men, women and children… shards of glass sought out tender, unprotected skin … he thought of his family and tried to rise, but something inside of him was broken… there was a rising heat and the pungent smell of burning flesh mingled sickeningly with the smoke and the dust… and suddenly it was blackness.

9/11/01? New York? World Trade Center?

No.

9/11/04. Falloojeh. An Iraqi home.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_09_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#109524578940723400

[jmcgowanjm]

54. CentCom is wounded and lashing out

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 (UPI) -- Nearly 17,000 service
members medically evacuated from Iraq and Afghanistan
are absent from public Pentagon casualty reports, according
to military data reviewed by United Press International.
The Pentagon said most don't fit the definition of casualties,
but a veterans' advocate said they should all be
counted.

Put this w/ the 7000 official WIA list and you get the
25000 WIA's that I had earlier est'd.

10/1 kill ratio and you have at least 2500 US KIA.

With other info est. the KIA # could easily be put over
3500.

Mafkarat al-Islam, 16 September 2004, 11:55am Mecca time.

Fierce fighting broke out on Thursday morning between
Iraqi
Resistance forces and US occupation troops in the city
of ar-Ramadi
west of occupied Baghdad. The local correspondent of
Mafkarat al-
Islam reported that the fighting erupted at about 7:00am
local time
and was still raging when he filed his report, which was
posted at
12:55 local time (11:55 Mecca time) on the Mafkarat al-
Islam
website. There have been several casualties among the
joint US-
south Korean forces, he reported.

An informed source told Mafkarat al-Islam that during the
last three
days of combat, Resistance fighters had captured a number
of US
occupation troops and south Korean soldiers. The
Resistance had
also taken possession of a Humvee and driven it off to
an unknown
location.

Iraqi sources report that operations of the Resistance now
being
carried out in ar-Ramadi are of a different type than
those mounted
earlier. The Resistance in nearby al-Fallujah are blocking
and
smashing any American attacks forcing them to withdraw.
But the
Resistance in ar-Ramadi are waging a protracted war of
attrition,
they say, trying to draw in the occupation troops, giving them
the
illusion that they have won and then springing sudden
surprise
attacks on them that inflict large-scale losses in their
forces.
The correspondent noted that the largest movement of
US supply
convoys and patrols are now those headed for ar-
Ramadi.

[SOS]

61. Hussein couldn't control Falluja either

Fallujans are Wahabi. Hussein had no control over this town and eventually resorted to bribery in the from of construction contracts to Falluja tribal leaders to maintain some control there. Hussein feared and despised this town. These are not "Saddam loyalists" but much more akin to the Wahabi radicals of Saudi Arabia.

From globalsecurity.com

"The emergence of Fallujah as a seat of Sunni resistance is explained by the fact that many of its inhabitants are followers of the Wahabi sect. Fallujah is a traditional, Sunni Wahabi extremist tribal hotbed. In Fallujah, Ramadi, and in other Sunni centers anti-occupation attacks by insurgents are said to be planned by the Committee of the Faith, a group of Wahabi-based Sunni Muslims. Under Saddam Hussein Fallujah's mosque imams were subjected to persecution because they refused to eulogize Saddam in sermons after prayers."

Hussein had a local military and harsh methods, but could not fully contain the radical religionists in Falluja. How does the US think it can succeed here?

[Aidoneus]

69. on this phrase "Wahhabi"..

It would not be correct to use even if it technically was true--that is, even if it were, those that would be the "Wahabis" would be apostates to what they claim and/or would be claimed to be (indeed, such is NOT what they would claim to be, rather the term is usually used by those speaking against the people in question or those who don't know any better). This is in general, applicable to most of the references of it, and indeed this in particular.

The main point, however, short of these details, is sound--Fallujah was a bed of nails for the Baathists as well. That the same enemies of the previous dictator are fought by the occupyers and their current pet dictator is no coincidence.

[Gregorian]

63. Remember Mai Lai.

I'm sure Powell does.

/There have been too many of these! Someone, somewhere is letting this happen. Someone should be paying dearly for these dead and injured civilians. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :(

[Tommy_Douglas]

81. Typical military journalism...

They like two types of stories.

Nice acts - Winning hearts and minds.

Kills - All kills are insurgents.

Both give the image of winning the war. Too bad for Bush there are pretty much zero hearts and minds stories coming out of Iraq.

[leftchick]

83. well said Tommy....

though our poor deluded fearless leader* continues to actually believe the shit that spews from his mouth.

[Minstrel Boy]

90. Tell me ONE THING Iraq ever did to the United States

to justify the humiliation and horror of an unending occupation. The generational mass murder of uranium contamination.

Just ONE THING.

[NNN0LHI]

146. The bastards hid all of our oil underneath their sand n/t

[DamOTclese]

148. American cowards

More dead kids, more blood on the Bush regime's hands.

[Ms. Clio]

165. Jayzus Jumpin Jehosaphat

They are swarming on this one.

[leftchick]

166. That is true.....

I can't figure out why no intervention... :shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

168. It's a bit baffling

I mean, what are the odds, that of all the soldiers who have served in Iraq and during WW2 only those who spout the exact same talking points would sign up on the same day and endlessly post the same lame bullshit in the same thread?

[IwoVet1945]

176. Same talking points?

We are not the some people. Have the mods check my ISP if you like. As for the same talking points, what a bunch of baloney.


I don't think we should be in Iraq, but I just do not like US Military personel being called "murderers".

Think what you want.

[Ms. Clio]

177. I never said or implied that you were the same person

There is certainly more than one war crimes apologist around these parts--lately there have been droves of them, in fact.

Thank you for your permission to think what I want.

[saigon68]

188. They are Murderers and War Criminals

There are 5 or 6 Military War Criminal thugs in this picture

[Aidoneus]

179. Quite a tempest I had set loose here..

Cool.

[leftchick]

181. It is all your damn fault Aidoneus!!!

You rabble rouser you! :)

[saigon68]

184. This board is sure screwed up today

It must really be overloaded -----PM me

[Aidoneus]

189. Thank you

I try..

[saigon68]

183. A test

[saigon68]

196. KICK

[Conservativesux]

197. A year from now..........

More and more killing if Bush isnt unselcected!!!