German welfare rallies escalate

[demoman123]

Thousands of people have marched through cities across Germany in renewed protests against welfare cuts.

The biggest demonstrations took place in eastern Germany, with more than 20,000 on the streets of Leipzig and 15,000 in Berlin, police said.

Organisers said the rallies on Monday were the biggest since the protests erupted two weeks ago.

The new measures, due to take effect next year, would lower long-term unemployment benefits.

The government made concessions last week on the timing of the first payments, but insisted on Monday there would be no more fine-tuning of the "Hartz IV" legislation.

Long-term unemployment benefits are to be reduced to the level of social welfare payments, meaning a large cut in income for many families.

Correspondents say it would be the biggest overhaul of Germany's generous welfare system in decades.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3572580.stm

[Frangible]

1. 18.5% unemployment?

Damn, that's crisis-level. No wonder people are upset.

[dumpster_baby]

4. yes, but our true unemployment level is similar

Germans can get could welfare/unemployment benefits (at least up till now), and so many of them would rather get money from the govt rather than work some crap Walmart job. They also universal healthcare. So they are not that worried about being unemployed.

Sounds like a pretty good system to me. I would much rather be a German than an American, and if any young person asks my opinion, I will tell them to move to Europe, where the citizens have a much better control over their governments.

I would move there but they would not have me as a citizen with full benefits; in fact, it would be quite hard for any American to become a citizen of a european country.

[geek tragedy]

5. No, it's not.

US unemployment rarely goes above 6%.

[dumpster_baby]

8. Not true!

ACTUAL American unemployment is about 10%--we do not count as unemployed, people who cannot find a job but whose benefits have run out. THat puts us at about 10%. This is common knowledge!

Also, you have to consider the amount of people here in the USA who go ahead and take any crappy job just to SURVIVE. But in Germany (and France, Belgium, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, etc etc etc), rather than take any crappy job, many people take unemployment or welfare and wait for something better to come along. And they can wait for YEARS!

So, SURELY, you see that American unemployment would be much higher, in line with European unemployment rates. Do you see my point?

[Vincardog]

12. Not True

I believe that when you count the long term unemployed and under employed the rate is more like 22% in the US overall. Some areas are as high as 80%.

[TO Kid]

13. You're wrong on Canada

Here in Canada, unemployment benefits are 55% of pay at last job, to a maximum of ~$22k per year (poverty line in average Canadian city is ~28k), for a term of not longer than one year. Most of the benefits are paid out to seasonal workers in the Atlantic provinces and to factory workers on short-term layoffs. The net effect is a large transfer of wealth from primarily younger, low-income workers to primarily older, mid-to-high-income workers as people working McJobs in Toronto subsidize seasonal workers who make several times their wage. It also amounts to a business subsidy, especially for the automakers, because they can lay off workers anytime without fear that they'll seek employment elsewhere.

Just to put our unemployment "benefits" into perspective- over the past decade I've paid more than $13,000 into the scheme and my employer paid in more than $20,000 on my behalf. In the event I lose my job, the most I'll ever get back is $23,000.

[dumpster_baby]

14. benefits vary from province to province

the length of drawing unemployment benefits in Quebec (I think it was quebec) is about 22 months (as of 2001 or thereabouts).

However, one or two of the provinces (Alberta or Saskatch?) are much less generous.

Let me guess, you are speaking of one of those two provinces!

[dumpster_baby]

15. No Canadian draws unemploy benefits for more than 1 year at a time?

Is that what you are saying?

[geek tragedy]

17. Where are you getting your information?

The unemployment statistics don't take into account benefits--it's based on a survey of households. There are three groups:

People who have jobs=employed

People who don't have jobs, are looking for jobs, and are available to work=unemployed

People without jobs but who aren't available to work or aren't looking=discouraged workers.

The number of unemployed don't include discouraged workers, so the US unemployment rate tends to underestimate the total by a slight degree, but not by 50-60%!
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

There is no doubt that European unemployment rates are much higher than those in the US.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/06/art1full.pdf

This is not surprising, given that European social policy often has the practical effect of encouraging unemployment.

[burrowowl]

19. Plus if you add

how many people are in Prison, many unjustly, unemployment is even higher.

[TahitiNut]

21. (Unemployment) U1=1.8%, U2= 2.8%, U3=5.7%, U4=6.0%, U5=6.7%, U6=9.8%

U3 is the generally-announced unemployment rate.

• U-1 Persons unemployed 15 weeks or longer, as a percent of the civilian labor force
  
• U-2 Job losers and persons who completed temporary jobs, as a percent of the civilian labor force
  
• U-3 Total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor force (official unemployment rate)
  
• U-4 Total unemployed plus discouraged workers, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus discouraged workers
  
• U-5 Total unemployed, plus discouraged workers, plus all other marginally attached workers, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers
  
• U-6 Total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers

http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab12.htm

[eridani]

And you left out the POWs in the War On Some Drugs

Our huge jail population, plus the population of parasites that are paid to lock up people who don't need to be locked up, would be added to the unemployment pool in any European country.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. Germany counts part-timers as unemployed.

. Also as others have pointed out the 18% figure appears to just be for the former East Germany, so the article was dishonest.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. The article is not dishonest

it says:
"Unemployment in eastern Germany is 18.5%, twice the level of that in many western German regions."

[Courtesy Flush]

26. That's pretty elitist

So who exactly do they hire to clean toilets and flip burgers? Somebody is doing that work. Right?

In America, unemployment benefits are loosely linked to the contributions made by the recipient. How many people have contributed anough to collect benefits for ten years? Not many, I'm sure.

So here's how I see it. Highly paid workers, too spoiled to actually do physical work, are being supported by the taxes paid by those burger flippers.

Sorry, but anybody who thinks he's too good to get his hands dirty making an honest living must be a spoiled freeper type. I don't want to bust my ass at work so he can sip wine for ten years. I've had to do all those shitty jobs in my day, and it didn't kill me. It's unsulting and elitist to tell the people at the bottom that their work is too distasteful for their betters.

Plus, what kind of loser can't find a job in ten years???

[Classical_Liberal]

29. The burger flippers also get paid more, are generally in a union

and have lot's of vacation time. There are also not that high a percentage of burger flipper jobs.

What she is trying to say, is that people should be enticed by high wages not by lowering benefits to Walmart wages. It is a much smarter strategy for most workers then the true freeper attitude which resents everyone to minimum wage jobs or a race to the bottom, and creates more overall wealth in society.

[Courtesy Flush]

31. So you're saying

that German WalMart (ValMart?) pays a living wage, plus benefits, and people still turn their noses up?

Sorry, sounds like welfare for the rich. I work a difficult and draining job. If WalMart paid well, I'd consider working there myself. Imagine a job where your work is done at the end of the day. My job is a never-ending flow of deadlines and crises. I'd take a big decrease in pay to be able to work a lower-stress job. I can't imagine being unemployed and turning down jobs. I've been through the lean years. I appreciate employment when I can get it. I spent a lot of time being unemployed when I was in my 20s. It's hard to get a good job when you're handicapped. I never was eligible for unemployment benefits, so I just had to work.

Welfare is for the poor. Sorry. I'm not budging on that.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. No I am saying that we should focus on raising wages and not

cutting benefits for the poor, because it creates a race to the bottom. Then they can say union workers are spoiled relative to wally world workers so unions should go. The benefits are good enough amoung the workers that there isn't all that much resentment there. Getting mad at poor people rather than your fucking idiot employer will never improve your life.

[ze_dscherman]

18. 18.5 % is not the overall German level

The actual rate for all Germany is 10.5%. 18.5% the level in the former German Democratic Republic. In some regions it's even higher, although many people have migrated to the former Western Germany.

The re-unification of Germany has not happened economically. It has rather been a conquest of the east by the much more viable and agressive capitalist economy. Whole industries were not competitive any more or wantonly destroyed. Billions in subsidies have been pumped into the east, and much money has been sucked away from profiteers. Much resentment has been built up - many in the West looking down at the "lazy" East, many the East resignated, feeling forgotten or even exploited. In my opinion, it will take generations to bridge the gap, if ever.

Also, please keep in mind that unemployment in Germany is counted by a different method. Since every employee has to pay for unemployment insurance and may claim benefits, the actual numbers of unemployed are counted - also those that are long-time unemployed. The US system is based on surveys and only counts those that claim benefits, and not those that dropped out of them or simply have given up looking for a job. Still, even if the enormous rate of U.S. prisoners is included into the unemployment rate, the rate in Germany is somewhat higher.

[TahitiNut]

22. MYTH!: "only counts those that claim benefits"

This is simply NOT TRUE. It doesn't get any truer by repetition.

For Goddess's sake, folks! Please READ "How the Government Measures Unemployment"!!

Every time I see this specious canard posted on DU, I see the creeping pathology of freeperishness: embedded false beliefs unassailable by facts.

[geek tragedy]

30. How dare you raise the truth?

The benefits theory sounds so much cooler!

[TahitiNut]

35. There are far more insidious ways of skewing the numbers.

(1) This is a continuing survey of 60,000 households conducted in monthly cycles by the Census Bureau, a federal agency in the Commerce Department.

(2) IF someone were able to gain access to the list of households, and IF someone were interested in and able to effect the employment of (or the responses of) those surveyed, it could result in a major difference between the survey and the actual conditions in regions and areas in which such interference was successful.


In order to understand the ways in which metrics might be manipulated one must first understand how those metrics are obtained. Ignorance is NEVER an ally.

[ze_dscherman]

39. Thanks for the information!

I also hate it if disinformation spreads.

However, there's still the difference in counting "those who are actively seeking labour". German number include everyone unemployed that made claims and gets money or gets welfare - and some of these people just have given up looking for jobs.

[Vincardog]

2. "German welfare rallies escalate"

You do realize these austerity measures are the thin edge of the fiscal policy's that lead to Hitler and WWII don't you? They are coming here to the USA next. We have to elect Kerry and engage in real fiscal reform unless we want to live on $2 a day to pay off the corrupt bankers.

[smada]

3. please expound

There were about three dozens intermingling events and policies that led to the rise of Hitler. It wasn't isolated to one fiscal policy, and I would say that was one of the lesser factors.

[Vincardog]

7. Hitlers rise

The factors leading to the discontent in Germany were a direct result of the Reparations imposed after WWI. The burden imposed by the war debt lead to such Draconian austerity measures that the people were ready for a drastic change. Don't forget that Hitler was not elected he manipulated the process to seize power. Following the Reichstag fire he consolidated this power, then he went on to pursue a reckless ultra-nationalist foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate. Hitler promotes militarism while in the midst of a major economic recession.

That is enough about the how. The international monetary policy was the WHY. The aim of the worlds money policy should had been to increase the productivity and standard off living of all people. Instead of the prime focus was and is enriching the bankers to the exclusion of all others. This monetary policy is what leads invariably to power concentration in a very few hands in a word fascism.

That is how the monetary policy created or rather gave rise to the conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power.

[smada]

20. about reparations

You know, don't you, that in the end Germany only ended up paying about 1/10th of the reparations they were supposed to. So, yes, there was resentment at having draconian reparations imposed, but little real effect since 90% of it wasn't paid anyway.

[dumpster_baby]

6. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa!

You wrote:

>>>>>>>>>
You do realize these austerity measures are the thin edge of the fiscal policy's that lead to Hitler and WWII don't you? They are coming here to the USA next. We have to elect Kerry and engage in real fiscal reform unless we want to live on $2 a day to pay off the corrupt bankers.
>>>>>>>>>

I don't think you understand the situation fully. THe Germans are fighting against austerity measures that their govt is trying to implement, specifically lowering the amount of payments made to long term unemployed. But their "long term unemployed" is MUCH different from ours: they give unemployment benefits for YEARS. 10 years maybe! And almost all other western nations do the same. some even longer, and some for shorter periods of years! The welfare payments spoken of in the article are lower, and it is to that level to which the govt is trying to lower long term unemployed. That is the matter being protested.

OK, to compare to AMerica: our long term unemployment benefits generally end at 6 MONTHS. Maybe a bit longer depending on the state. Surely you can see that there is a HUGE difference there, and the Germans are way ahead of us in terms of a generous welfare state. Austerity measures "coming to the USA next"? Umm...we are already there, and we have NEVER had the kind of plush welfare state that Germans and other Europeans have had.

Also, the welfare benefits that are spoken of in the article are, like almost all other western nations except the USA, available not only to families with children, but also to able bodied single people, which almost NEVER happens in America. Welfare in America is basically just for kids and their poor families, or for disabled. Again, a HUGE difference. If you travel to Europe and you notice that many europeans seem more relaxed than AMericans, THAT is the reason: they have a safety net under them. They can go ahead and relax and live their lives.

And then there is the whole universal healthcare thing, funded by taxes, that Germans and citizens of most other western countries have, but not the USA.

[demoman123]

9. In Europe, this is part of what is called 'the American model'

The German government is emulating the US.

[dumpster_baby]

11. They have a long way to go to get down to our level

Also, you must understand that the Big Money is trying to take over germany like they have always had control of the USA. HOWEVER, the Germans are FAR more aware of what is going on than Americans are. Also, germans have a huge advantage over us: they do not have governmental/electoral structure like ours. Ours is easily controlled by money, mainly because of our first-past-the-post system, controlled by a 2 party duopoly; germany has a system that is partly a party-list proportional representation system, and they have something like 5 healthy parties. They have a MUCH stronger political system than ours. Not even comparable.

Just because the neoliberals want to control germany and turn germans into their bitches, just like we Americans have always been their bitches, doesn't mean they will be able to do that....

[demoman123]

16. Well, that's a relief.... I guess. :) N/T

[Vincardog]

10. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa!"

I am not discussing the relative merits of welfare states. Theirs is much better than ours. The fact that we should have Universal Health care is not in question. The fact that we should have quality education available to all our children is not in question. We should be more relaxed because we have a adequate social safety net under us. But we don't.
Even so watch the looming international collapse. The Fiscal policies that benefit the banks to the detriment of every other interest are beginning to exerted to the detriment of the US economy. You will soon hear that we need to cut out social spending to pay off our debt. We will see the dollar plunge and the debt escalate just as Mexico and Argentina did. The end result would be that we surrender our democratic rights to the control of the international bankers.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

23. The Economist says the beneficiary will tbe the PDS, not the fascists.

..tho right might gain some support, it looks like the PDS is going to make the political hay on this...

[bobbieinok]

25. PDS was created out of the East German communist party (THE party)

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

24. & Oskar Lafontaine is talking about a splinter party from the SPD?

So reports the Economist, but nothing firm yet...just talk right now?

[Dirk39]

28. Hello from Germany,

it's seems to be pretty clear now that there will be a new leftwing party. It's still not sure, if Lafontaine will be part of it.
Polls vary between at least 5 up till 20+ percent for a party left of the SPD.
I didn't vote for Schröder or the Greens, neither in 1998 nor in 2002, 'cause I knew what they would do. But I'm happy that so many Germans wake up now!

F*ck neoliberalism, f*ck Schröder,
Dirk

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

32. Really? Wow....!

I didnt realize politics is polarizing or fragmenting like that in Germany. I just read about this in the Economist, but it was just a mention.

[Dirk39]

34. Hi,

"04.07.2004
New German Leftist Group Emerges

The group banks on the support of thousands unhappy with the reforms

Unhappy with the German government's welfare reforms, trade union and Social Democratic Party members have formed a new association that could pose a serious challenge in upcoming elections.

Members of the new group, which is called "Election Alternative: Jobs and Social Justice," said they would decide in the fall whether to turn the organization into a political party to participate in state and national elections in 2005.

The association, which currently includes about 70 local chapters, was officially founded on Saturday and plans to work against the Social Democratic and Green party coalition government's reforms.

Plans to reverse government reforms

The group's goals include scrapping recently approved, sweeping new social welfare laws that merge unemployment and social welfare benefits and require long-term unemployed people to accept almost any job offered to them.


Members of the newly founded group talk to journalists at a press conference on Sunday
They also oppose proposals to extend the German work week to 40 hours -- a step technology giant Siemens took a few weeks ago in an agreement with trade union officials to secure 2,000 jobs at two of the company's German cell phone production plants.


A third demand is the call to end a €10 ($12) patient co-pay for doctor visits introduced at the beginning of the year. Instead, the group wants to introduce a compulsory national health insurance system and revert new taxes on pensions.



A serious challenge?

The group could fare well in elections, according to a survey conducted by Infratest dimap institute for German public broadcaster ARD: Forty-three percent of voters said they could see themselves supporting a new party to the left of the Social Democrats (SPD).


Franz Müntefering, the SPD's party leader, meanwhile warned people to support the group. He said that Germany's left could only survive as a political force through the cooperation of SPD and trade unions."
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1255238,00.html

But, as a personal comment: what's happening in Germany right now is happening all over Europe. Apart from Blair, Schröder might be the most disgusting former Social Democrat one could imagine, but what's happening in Germany: deregulation, privatisation etc. isn't much different from what's happening all over Europe and still, as a consequence of Reagan and Thatcher, in the USA.

I have serious doubts that a "national" solution to these problems in the times of neoliberal globalisation is still possible, but at least they could build a strong opposition and prevent my fellow germans from doing what they did during the 30's.

And the situation is really desperate, 'cause within the traditional party-system, there is no alternative anymore. We have become America. But at least in the USA the two parties of corporate America still hate one another:-), and there is still someone like Kucinich.

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[demoman123]

36. Thanks for your information.

Your post started me thinking about how the internet furthers political communication among regular people all over the world. Umberto Eco once said that the internet had worldwide revolutionary potential precisely for this reason. Marx's ideal of the internationalization of the working class may come true in a way completely unexpected by him. Who knows what kind of solidarity and international understanding may be created by this medium, z.b., 100 years from now?

[dumpster_baby]

38. I have been saying this for months

It seems to be that the progessives and the academics have been moving to a theory of rightwing propaganda moving the country to the right, all using the mass media. It has been going on for decades. Combine this well funded campaign with certain structural changes in American life: longer and longer commutes, workplaces where political discussion is frowned upon, and increasing isolation from face to face community, replaced by a hollow, corporate-friendly top-down "mass media community." The political ideas that are disseminated into American minds through this faux, corporate, mass-media community, are "top-down" political ideas, favoring politics that are friendly to corporations.

If we could return to a face to face community, most of the ideas disseminated would be "bottom up", and friendlier to the average person.

THe internet is taking us back to that face to face community. Just LOOK at all the ideas that are floating about here on DU, and on fark.com, slashdot.org, yahoo.com message boards, etc etc. Yes, there are rightwing, paleo-con ideas, and corporate friendly "free market" ideas, but there are also LEFTIST ideas, and progressive ideas. Those leftist ideas and the true, rightwing paleo-con ideas almost NEVER get expressed via the faux mass-media community.

[Kellanved]

41. Lafontaine loves to talk ,

but he has little to no substance.

The situation is quite strange: what is reported as being "mass protests" is a smallish affair, when compared with protests on other issues.
I personally can't quite get the point: the current program was an integral part of Schröder's re-election platform. Protests after the election and after the bill has passed both houses of Parliament seem a little late to me.

As to the bill itself: it is not a huge cut, as many seem to think. Yes, welfare will be a lot less generous; but the system will continue longer than it would without it. One has to consider that the new social welfare system is run by the Federation, while the old system was paid by the cities - a system that left cities with high unemployment rates totally broke.

Also the opposition parties love the current situation and are doing everything to blow the current problems out of proportion.

First the conservatives: despite voting for the agenda in both houses (at the price that the package was toughened even more), advocating even stricter cuts and demanding flat-rate (totally flat, not percentage-based) healthcare, they still get more support - even from the people now protesting. It is totally beyond my understanding.

Secondly the PDS: The party has no consistent program, shady top politicians, no problems with orchestrating protests while staying in coalition state governments, and no valid plans at all. Their success will be temporary at best.

Third: the new "Party": I'll believe it when I see it. At the moment the only new party I've seen is the one founded by the Onion equivalent "Titanic". Anybody advocating to fracture the left is an idiot IMHO. Fact is that the alleged exodus of SPD members is not existent: most are leaving due to old age and the SPD has more new members than any other party. I don't have numbers for the whole country, but in Berlin double as many people left the conservatives in the same timeframe.


Anyway, some of the changes criticized had an extremely positive effect already, despite the media miss-informing (faulty reports about the health reform did more damage than the reform itself). For example the public insurance companies are running a profit again - something unheard of for years.
Other reforms simply have to be done: the conservative upper-house majority limits the options left to the government and the public treasuries are empty. The options were cutting or stopping altogether. The protesters, without knowing it, are protesting for American standards (or rather the lack thereof).
Even other changes, especially the privatizations are due to the EU. It is a present from the European conservative majority, nothing a national Government can do about it - especially not when the very people now complaining did not deem it necessary to vote.

No, if you want German Government policies to criticize, have a look at software patents and eavesdropping .

[Easy]

42. If the Wahlalternative runs in the 2006 election,

the SPD will bleed badly. The party will be a reservoir for everyone who traditionally voted SPD, but is disappointed by Schröder's cozy relationship with big business, and his disregard for the common people. The software patent and copyright issues are, imo, just other aspects of the general problem that, today, the businesses through their lobbyists run the politics, not the other way around.

"Hartz IV" might be 'not as bad as it seems', but that does not change the fact that the SPD is no longer a worker's party, but just another slave to the industry. A new left wing party - especially one without the taint of the PDS - will get a lot of votes, and the SPD will pay dearly. And deservedly so.

~Easy

[DU GrovelBot]

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