"Landrieu, Jefferson shift war view"

[funkybutt]

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-1/108806449667980.xml

"Despite unexpectedly stubborn resistance from heavily armed Iraqi insurgents and a failure so far to find weapons of mass destruction, most members of the Louisiana congressional delegation say they have no regrets about their votes in 2002 to authorize the war with Iraq.

The exceptions are two Democratic members, Sen. Mary Landrieu and Rep. William Jefferson, who say they feel misled by the Bush administration and probably would have voted differently if they had known then what they know now."

[Jacobin]

1. Okay as far as it goes, but Mary, Mary, Mary Mary

WHY did you vote to censor the pictures of our fallen soldiers?

I voted for you. You let the country down.

[funkybutt]

2. maybe she thought...

America couldnt handle the truth

[The White Rose]

3. Maybe she decided to pick her battles...

Better to be inside and doing good where you can than be rendered honorably impotent.

[truthspeaker]

4. How would voting against the censorship render her impotent?

[PaDUer]

47. She thought america couldn't handle the truth?

I guess she has NOT been reading her emails/faxes or getting her messages then!

[Peregrine]

6. Why did she submit a proposed amendment to defend

god in the pledge and permit mention of god in government forums?

[xchrom]

7. if you're from louisiana there are

some topics that are third rail -- that would be one of them.
otherwise -- i agree.

[gratuitous]

5. See? Was that so hard?

"If I had known then what I know now*, I wouldn't have voted for the Iraq war resolution."

*You might also throw in "If I had known then what I know now, and what the administration knew then and didn't disclose to Congress."

[duvinnie]

23. "If I had known then what I know now"

Isn't that a bit like
"If I had known the winning lottery numbers prior to the drawing.."?

Lousiana dems are a sad bunch if you go by this lady

[jus_the_facts]

8. she makes me SICK....isn't hindsight always 20/20.......

.....like I now see how my VOTE for her was WASTED...on a DINO...heh...won't be fooled AGAIN..this is yet a little too little a little too late! :eyes: :puke:

[Dr Fate]

9. So you would rather have a Republican represent you?

At least Mary can represent you on MANY issues, as opposed to ZERO issues.

And if you think Lousianna is ready to elect greens to high office, then welcome to fantasy world...

[jus_the_facts]

10. she might as well already BE one......

....sorry but the EXCUSES just don't FLY anymore! If this is as good as it gets...then there's just no wonder why this country is as FUCKED UP as it is. :nopity:

[Dr Fate]

11. So vote Republican then.

Because it's either a Republican, who you agree with ZERO issues,
or a DEM, who you can at least find common ground.

Or cast a "party building" vote for a green, and mabey LA will have a green Senator 50 years from now.

I'm not making excuses, I'm talking reality as opposed to philosophy.

I doubt I can find a DEM who I agree with on EVERY issue, but that does make them Republicans.

[jus_the_facts]

12. REALITY...heh riiiight.....there's NO such thing anymore......

.....or haven't you been payin' attention....she's VOTED with the pukes MORE SO THAN NOT...so give me a f'n BREAK with the vote repuke shit...the REALITY of it all is....I ALREADY HAVE BY VOTIN' FOR HER! :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

18. Yes, she did

That's why I'm furious with her. She and Breaux are really Republican-lite, though not quite as bad as Zell Miller.

[Dr Fate]

19. Have you & your local DEM organization formally complained to her?

Or do you just complain on DU?

[jus_the_facts]

21. I've sent emails and called her offices in La. and DC......

.....time and time again....havent' gotten ONE response from her...yet have from other Senators offices around the country....speaks volumes more about her...in and of itself..and of course I complain around here as well....it's what DU's all about...duh! :eyes:

[Dr Fate]

22. What about your local Dem organization?

I would propose a formal complaint at the next meeting.

[jus_the_facts]

24. There's no such thing.....

...long time Democrats are afraid of bein' lynched in these parts these days...the media here has gotten long time dem. police jurors FIRED and charged with crimes..while lettin' the right get away with the same type of activities. :nopity:

[Dr Fate]

25. Geeze- I can see why she's not 100% DEM then...

The good Liberals on the LOCAL level cant get their act together.

Good Govt. comes from the bottom up. If enough Liberals in LA want their political nominees to share their values, then they need to start strengthening & injecting thier values into their local DEM organization.

I'm not making excuses for Landriue as much as I'm saying that you cant expect her to be 100% DEM if the rank & file Liberals in your own community cant even have a meeting of the minds every now & then...

[jus_the_facts]

40. it's the threats by the rank and file PUKES that make that difficult....

...that swastica in your skulls eyes there...that is actually a rampant mindset in the state of La....alive and well and taken to extremes...there's been a LOT of DEMS lose their jobs and sent to jail in this state...former Gov. Edwin Edwards is in prison because his home and his childrens homes were wiretapped and the tapes allowed to be used against him in court by a fed puke judge...heh back when that was still illegal and considered entrapment.

...mayhap that's also why so many dems have lost their spines since the sElection...9/11...the anthrax scares and the Patiot Act...seems to fit a trend doesn't it? :shrug: :tinfoilhat: ?

[Dr Fate]

42. Making excuses are we?

If you want your Senator to "stand up" and stop making excuses, then you DEMS at the local level need to do the same.

Dont forget- you are HER boss. You need to get all the like minded DEMS in your neighborhood together & petition your Senator for a redress of grievences. If you cant do that, then you have no room to complain and slander her on DU.

And I've been in LA and they have strong DEM pockets & traditions there. Last time I checked, you have another DEM senator as well.

It's also bizzare that she never wrote you back- I've been writting congress critters since I was a kid and they ALWAYS write back- at least a form response.

I'm through kicking this thread.

[jus_the_facts]

44. YOU can call it excuses all you like...but it's actually called REALITY..

.......you can't even organize to give people a RIDE to the polls without it bein' in the NEWS bein' misconstrued and reported as CHEATING....that's the REALITY of this PUKE hell hole I call home...sorry it's impossible for you to wrap your grey matter around. :eyes:

[Dr Fate]

48. Republicans are keeping you & your neighbors from complaining...

...about Mary Landrew?

Republicans are keeping you & your like -minded neighbors from meeting on your front porch, living room or church basement?

Republican hoods are keeping you & all like minded people in your area from complaining to your Senator?

EXCUSES I say!!!!

I'm from Augusta GA, and although it's one of the most conservative towns in the nation, us Liberals managed to get together to make our voices heard to our REPS, as well as the state & national party.

I think you need to look to your community to find out why Mary is not 100% behind your values. She has no idea what they are, because you & the other DEMS never TOLD her. Oh- I know I know- the GOP will video tape it & beat you up-if you do that- so instead you just Bash DEMS in a chat room.

I'm done with this ridiculous excuse fest.

[jus_the_facts]

51. nahh...just her own husband is from this town originally.....

....and she's done JACK SQUAT for this area....and called all his friends here...*BENEATH* her as well...that came from her HUBBY'S own mouth....as he and my SO's dad were long time friends up untill she got re-elected and too uppity for the people who campaigned for her and got her elected in the first goddamn place....as far as she's concerned we're the little people now...just keep makin' false promises and actin' like a Dem while stabbin' ya in the back and completely ignoring who and for what she got elected for....EVEN AFTER REPEATED ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT HER! :puke:

BUH BYE now :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

45. You both make good points

I and members of my family have written our Senators and Reps., but we receive only form letters in return - no matter if our letters were critical or supportive.

The ONLY response that I ever received was when Senator Robert C. Byrd quoted part of an email I sent him in the Senate in 2002 - I had to write in LATIN in order to elicit a response!

I tried calling to no avail.

I have tried to create and support Democratic groups to no avail (my efforts were non-partisan and were pro-peace to keep it simple).

One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that the political climate in Louisiana is not friendly to Democratic supporters - very unfriendly in fact. EVERY person I work with is a hardcore Repub and/or X-tian fundie. Fortunately I telecommute and am lucky to live in New Orleans - which is like a Greek city-state. That's why when I am talking to tourists I always jokingly point out that the South is North of us. We're really the Northern most Caribbean city - entirely different than Northern Louisiana.

My option has been to argue facts from a non-partisan point of view. I have been very successful, for two co-workers (and long-time friends) are NOT going to vote for Bush. This took me two years to achieve. There are those that are unreachable, like Neo-Nazis that supported David Duke, and many many people that believe the "Gospel according to FOX News," that actively REFUSE to listen. To these folks I say, "fuck off."

Never give up... which I believe is what you were saying.

I enjoy your posts Dr Fate and you make a lot of sense. Thanks for kicking because we need help in Louisiana.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Good point

Our other choice was Suzie Terrell - Bush licker and RW X-tian... a slightly more verbose version of Laura Bush.

[Moloch]

30. Terrell was worse than that...

rotten, disgusting, RW bigot. I hate her SOOOOOO much and personally feel that her extremely negative campaign against Landrieu in '02 lost her the atty general race in '03. Hopefully she will never be elected to office again. I think her campaign's phone calls to people in La. saying Landrieu was excommunicated from the church and branded a heretic was a low point for politics in Louisiana (which makes it a low point for politics anywhere)

[Swamp Rat]

31. Yes, she's REALLY bad

I was shocked to see groups of people supporting her, right on the streetcar tracks at the River Bend (S. Carrollton and St. Charles). I really wanted to stop and say something nasty but I was on my way to vote for Landrieu.

[oasis]

50. Just how many votes would a Ted Kennedy Dem get in Louisiana?

[LizW]

13. I suspect that Landrieu's "If I knew then what I know now"

statement has two meanings. E.J. Dionne's book tells how she did what Bush asked during the war debate. And of course, she wasn't the only one. Remember the Democrats were terrified of being painted as soft on defense before the midterm elections. Everyone running in tough states had good reason to want to believe Bush.

Landrieu learned in no time flat that a Democrat gets nothing out of bipartisanship with this group in power. Bush sent the dogs after her just the same.

I don't hold it against her. The good thing is now she knows. Now they all know, and they won't get fooled again.

[jus_the_facts]

15. She's still a DINO FOOL....and doin' the pukes work for 'em......

...for THIS alone....*I* surely won't be FOOLED by HER again! :nopity:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1748112#

[John_H]

20. Nothing is good enough for the purists on the far left which is why

they'll be a threat to noone except people who dislike self-absorbed whining.

Nope, can't change your mind, even if it's to our side. We don't want you.

Pure genius. It is good to know, though, that we'll always be able to call one percenters one-percenters.

[funkybutt]

36. I'm sorry you hate Mary Landrieu so much

but that's not really getting us anywhere..you think your vote would have been better spend on Terrell..HAHAHA!

Mary is doing the best job she can with the republican majority...ESPECIALLY her in LA...take a look around! She HAS to be moderate!!!

[Francine Frensky]

49. But, bush is the one who lied, why blame those who believed him?

your shooting at the wrong target. Mary's line is what EVERY democrat and EVERY honest republican (if there is such a thing) should be saying.

Look, bush has access to stuff that even Mary doesn't, much less the average american. If he stands up and says repeatedly, "I know they have WMDs and we will find them", you have to follow along. If he's bluffing, then HE gets caught in the end. if he's telling the truth, then you have to be on his side.

As a senator, you have to go with the info provided and place your faith in it.

Now, what the dems need to do is ATTACK BUSH FOR LYING!!!! The repubs caught clinton in a lie about an immaterial part of a frivolous civil lawsuit and beat it into every american's head. The dems are the next dinosaurs (soon to be extinct) if they don't do the same about bush lies! These need to be drilled into the head of every american.

[Mountainman]

14. "if they had known then what they know now"

We knew what they know now. Why didn't they know it. Being leaders and all I would think they were smarter than that.

I remember in 2002 those for the war were afraid that they would lose an election if they opposed it. It turns out that many of those who opposed it were re-elected.

[hansolsen]

16. There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq,

and it was clear at the time. It was obvious, plain as day, clear as a bell, widely reported, and well documented.

The Senate and House members who claimed to see WMD in Iraq, based on the pile of shit evidence brought forward at the time, were making a statment about themselves, not about Saddam Hussein. They were admitting to being courage impaired when the chips were down.

[Mechatanketra]

26. Indeed.

The Iraq War Resolution represented a sea change, from "yellow dog Democrats" to "yellow brick Democrats" -- those displaying a distressing need for either a brain, a heart, or some nerve. The evidence was there that the hawks were lying from day one, evidence we spent weeks discussing on DU before the resolution was even written. Support for handing Bush the power to go through with it (and the War Powers Act specifies quite clearly, he does need to be given that power by Congressional action) based on his feeble facsimile of a casus belli requires either extreme gullibility, extreme indifference to human life, or extreme cowardice in the face of criticism from the opposition.

No matter what other mistakes they have made, I commend these two for stepping off the yellow brick road ... and renew my sense of unsettlement at those (cough JFK cough) who are still happily dancing down it.

[hansolsen]

28. And how did John Kerry vote on the war resolution, by the way?

John Kerry and the DLC wing of the Democratic Party had better understand that those of us who opposed this war all along will support Kerry just to be rid of Bush, but if Kerry then just rolls right along implementing Bush's nightmare mid east policy, we will turn on Kerry the same way we turned on Bush.

Kerry will just be the next one term president if he doesn't look under the desk, find his balls, and sew them back on pretty soon.

[Mechatanketra]

38. I'd like to think so.

But I suspect the number of people who really opposed this war all along, instead of just Bush being the guy to do it, is drastically lower than logic and sanity would indicate. If it wasn't, Kerry wouldn't be the candidate.

I get the sense that the majority of Democrats are just as irritated if not hostile to the anti-war crowd as the Republicans are -- because we were right, and that makes them look bad. I frequently hear sentiments to the effect that "Is this one issue so important you're willing to give Bush another 4 years" -- but it seems many Democrats, at least 'professional' (officeholding) Democrats and their workers, really are willing to put more Republicans in power(by feeding them the benefits of the Skaff Effect, wherein any promotion of a product buoys the current leader in that product) rather than just admit they were wrong.

[hansolsen]

46. Right on

Mech: I believe you are right on on at least two counts:

First, the DLC Democrats do despise the anti- Iraq war wing of the Party, and will never forgive us for being right. There will be some intra Party fences to mend or tear down when this is all over. It will be like two competing revolutionary groups turning on each other after the coup. I look forward to that.

By the way, one doesn't need to be a pacifist or a dove to be against this war. One can be a conservative Democrat and a strong supporter of the military (a hawk) and still be against the Iraq war (Bush War II).

Secondly, I had not heard of the Skaff Effect before, but that makes perfect sense, and helps explain why the DLC strategy of running a Bush Lite foreign policy campaign and a Bush Lite tax policy campaign has killed us in the past.

If Kerry were now running against, say, Eisenhower or Reagan, you wouldn't be able to find Kerry's poll standings with a flashlite. It's a good thing he is running against the worst incumbent president in the nation's history, bar none.

So say I.

[Dr Fate]

27. Widely reported to those who did 3-6 hours of daily research...

or perhaps Europeans.

I'm not here to make excuses, but to say that counter-Bush evidence was "widely reported" is not true.

I can just see the average DEM politician now- "But, but- I read on this website that Saddam might not have WMDs..." Knowing that the media would jump on any little "somthing" that might be found, it seemed risky at a time when almost everyone thought Saddam had "somthing"...

These DEMS took a gamble & bet on the wrong horse.

[hansolsen]

29. You didn't need the Internet to know the Emperor had no clothes

There was enough mainstream reporting to know that the "evidence" for WMD in Iraq was weak, too weak. I called it, "thin gruel, about two peas to the gallon", at the time.

The trouble was the stories challenging the lies were never on page one. They were buried deep in the paper and you had to go looking for them. And if you only got your news by reading the front page headlines and opening paragraph, you were screwed.

I, for one, hold my fellow citizens responsible for more than that.

I also place particular blame on the publishers and senior editors of the Washington Post and New York Times who supported the war in some form, and declared themselves convinced that there was WMD under every palm tree in Iraq. Those bastards are going to burn in hell for it -- unless they repent, of course, and correct the error of their ways.

[Dr Fate]

32. Tell that to all the Aunts & Uncles across America...

Trust me, I was the "wacky conspiracy guy" to everyone in the family, until about 5 months ago.

Up to 70% of the people bought the BS, and most politicians were not savvy enough to challenge the word of the executive branch, the Republican Congress, 5 Cable TV channels, 3 networks, Clear Channel Radio and hundreds of newspapers, all who were saying Saddam had WMDs.

[hansolsen]

33. Aunts and Uncles not in the Senate

None of my aunts and uncles were in the Senate when the vote was taken. And actually the A&As were pretty much against the war right up to the launch date. There was a strong majority against the war for a long time, and it only turned 50/50 right after Powell went to the U.N.

Opinion only went 70% in favor after the troops were on the ground and bullets were in the air. There is always a patriotic furvor that takes over, and still holds some sway even now.

But in the lead-up to the war there was plenty of evidence that the WMD story was a pile of crap, and about thirty some Senators voted against it, including Robert Byrd and Ted kennedy, the lions of the Senate.

JFK is no lion, or if he is, he is yet to grow a mane.

[Dr Fate]

34. Nah, they just vote for them as their representatives.

And as I said, few DEMS were savy enough to tell my Aunts & Uncles somthing different than 8 TV stations, hundreds of radio stations etc. was telling them.

On this we can agree.

[hansolsen]

35. Oh, they were "savy enough"

Oh they were savy enough all right, they (the majority of Democrats) just didn't have the balls to stand up and fight back when the chips were down. This isn't a question of brains, logic, information, and deductive reasoning. It is a question of courage.

[Dr Fate]

37. Sure, and some of them were not sure if one or two WMDs would turn up...

Can you imagine what the media would have done had they found even minimal WMDs?

Hopefully the DEMS in question have learned from this.

You say they had no balls, but you sidestep my point about the intensity of media propaganda at the time...Cast your mind back- no Air America, and a liberal web community just barely out of infancy...

I'm well aware of their shortcommings, but I come to DU to help Democrats get elected. I think electing DEMS is the best way to get many of my values into the system.

Goodnight, and dont forget to volunteer & support your local Democratic organization....

[hansolsen]

41. I agree with you on the role of the media

The pre war coverage of the WMD issue was the low point in American journalism in my opinion. The media Bigfoots who rolled over and let the Bush administration mainline their lies directly into the popular bloodstream will live in a hall of infamy.

Those high placed Dems who went along for the ride had plenty of company and a good excuse. It took real courage and great personal integrity to stand up with the minority in the Senate and House and tell George Bush to go to hell. Some representatives demonstrated that courage and some didn't. That's not my opinion, that's history.

[jus_the_facts]

39. Yep....reminds me of the *dems* who turned their backs on BYRD....

....when he was standing up and shouting about the Patriot Act...they turned their backs on him and US...just one example of many since 2000...playin' moderate and bipartisan has what's gotten us into the pathetic mess we're in today...seems the entire political arena has become a rigged game that we're allowed to take part in but destined to lose...even when we DO win! :grr:

[Dr Fate]

43. My local DEM organization PRAISED Byrd.

We wrote him letters & even posted his speech on our website.

What about your local DEM org?