Vatican releases new data on Inquisition (Seattle Post-Intelligencer)

[Edmond Dantes]

VATICAN CITY -- Torture, burning at the stake and other punishment for the faithful condemned as witches or heretics by church tribunals during the centuries-long Inquisition was not as widespread as commonly believed, the Vatican said Tuesday.

Research findings into the dark era in church history were praised by Pope John Paul II as part of his efforts to identify wrongs it had committed.

more at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_story.asp?category=1103&slug=Vatican%20Inquisition

:wtf:

Just a few bad apples. And, given the US torture memoranda, this is a politically opportune time for the Vatican to whitewash this nasty little Inquisition business.

[EdGy]

1. fix the link, you put the :wtf: right next to the url...

Here's a link that works:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_story.asp?category=1103&slug=Vatican%20Inquisition

[Edmond Dantes]

10. Sorry for typo. Link now fixed. Thanks for catching error. EOM

[jdj]

2. Article not found.

Dang, I wanted to read this. Does the vatican have an online archives site?

So if I run over one person instead of two on the way to work today, will people just over look it?

[jdj]

4. Non-tribunal churches?

whew, well that makes it okay then...

snip

Borromeo, curator of the work, said, for example, that while there were some 125,000 trials of suspected heretics in Spain, research found that about 1 percent of the defendants were executed, far fewer than commonly believed. Many of the burnings at the stake which took place during the centuries of the Inquisition actually were carried out by non-church tribunals, experts told reporters.

what is a "professor of history of Catholic and other Christian Confessors" any way?

This is a hoot, it's like saying, hey man, so what if you were anally raped with a broomstick at Abu Ghraib, look at it this way, at least you weren't executed.

This couldn't have come at a better time, really. The church is making itself less significant with each passing day.

Oh, I guess the Southern Baptists are a "non-tribunal church" now, so here's what we've got to look forward to out of them

[Cannikin]

3. "part of his efforts to identify wrongs it had committed."

What about the wrongs they are commiting NOW?


Pope decries "self-centered demands" of same-sex couples
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a...

Gay Catholics Refused Communion At Chicago Cathedral
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a...

Colorado Bishops Disagree Over Gay Vote Communion Ban
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a...

Reject Pro-Gay Candidates Catholic Voters Told
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1793011&mesg_id=1793011

Catholic Bishops Meet To Consider Penalties Against Pro-Gay Politicians
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1793337

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not anti-religion...just very pro-gay.

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. "I bet you're wishin'....that we'd go awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay"

"Cause the Inquisition is here and its here to staaaaaaaaay."

[geek tragedy]

9. NOBODY

expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Edmond Dantes]

12. Busting my gut laughing!!!!!

Of course, this is EXACTLY why they went down "The Road to Inquisition". Because no one would expect this level of depravity....

[mike_c]

6. he got the idea from Rumsfeld....

Technically, it wasn't always "torture." Often it was just "pressure", "conversion", "coercion", "abuse", or "execution." In the latter instance, the length of time it took for the executed to die, and the duration of their suffering during the termination process, was more the result of their own refusal to cooperate than any official policy of "torture."

[annak110]

7. Yes, always the whitewash

Has the church ever been in anything but a dark era? The Pope loves that period and would like to push us all back to that Feudal time in which the church controls everything including the lives of individuals.

The only people fighting against the hierarchy appear to be the many Catholics who oppose that corrupt and power mad hierarchy.

Thanks to the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act and the US. torture memoranda we, those who oppose this nonsense, could be burned at the stake today.

Yesterday an Islamic leader announced to a gathering of Islamic leaders that he thought the Islamic world was backward. Do you think we could get this leader to come over and address the RC Bishops who have gathered in Denver this week? He could use the same speech.

[montanacowboy]

8. And since * had his little pep talk

with El Pope, and El Pope gets his Bishops all in line to sing the * mantra - they must all be on the same page says *...

Now * gives orders to the Vatican and they swing in line behind him to make sure of his election -

Isn't the Vatican considered a foreign country? Isn't it treason to have a foreign country interfere in our elections?

The chimp isn't happy just to have to whacko evangels on his side, now he needs all the Catholics he can get ---

My head hurts and is spinning off my neck..

[Mr_Scarecrow]

11. "non-church tribunals"

is key. They are trying to evade responsibility for the tacit approval given to the many kooks who ran around claiming to be witch hunters, and the "unofficial" torture and executions carried out by townspeople who may or may not have been part of the Catholic Church. A fair and balanced investigation would assign responsibility to the church for all the abuses that happened as a result of their policies, whether carried out by their instruments or not.

[Retrograde]

14. historical fact or knee-jerk anti-Catholicism?

"A fair and balanced investigation would assign responsibility to the church for all the abuses that happened as a result of their policies, whether carried out by their instruments or not."

That sounds like a foregone conclusion on someone's part. By extension, is the Catholic Church also responsible for the actions of all Christians? Or just all Catholics?


linda

[LittleApple81]

20. In Cartagena, Colombia, they have the palace of the inquisition.

Not a pleasant place to visit. They have many of the instruments of torture and THE CHURCH DID IT. AND IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND THEY HAD A LOT OF POWER OVER GOVERNMENTS AT THAT TIME.
They surely learned fast. Bush had only like what, half an hour with the pope and now they know how to deny like the best of them.

[Scurrilous]

28. My sister visited a Museum of Torture Instruments...

...in Italy. She brought me home the catalog. They had some pretty wild stuff.

http://www.torturamuseum.com/index.html

[Voltaire99]

13. How many Popes are in Hell, do you reckon?

From the time Gregory IX kicked it off in 1231 until it petered out in 1834 (from bad reviews and poor ticket sales), the Inquisition lasted six hundred years.

To put it mildly, that's time for A LOT OF EVIL SHIT. Even if, as the Vatican now claims, only 1% of 125,000 heresy trials ended in execution, that's hardly the best way to measure the scope of evil. That still leaves at least 123,750 other lives ruined by accusation, persecution, stigma, and brutal forced confession. And it leaves the hopes and prayers of untold numbers of other "heretics" buried in the offal of violent theocracy. Take a gander, some time, through the pages of the Malleus Malificarum to see what illuminated the minds of the goodly Catholic witch hunters; they made the soldiers in Abu Ghraib look like Disneyland employees.

And yet here is the moral leader of their descendants declaring today:

For the public, "the image of the Inquisition represents almost the symbol ... of scandal," the pope wrote.

"Almost," eh? If the Inquisition is "almost" a scandal to Catholics, let us dread to imagine the real thing.

[termo]

30. 1% close to 100% sometime

http://www.corendal.com/arttoulouse/characters/detail/?characterid=APPL-CHRC-7

I am sure you know Simon de Montfort, and one of his quote (maybe):
"Kill them all, God will recognize his people" :smoke:

He was slaughtering towns, leaving none alive, but to be honest, there was probably no trial.

it seems to me that the hunt again heretics started before 1231, at least 1209 when the domestic Crusade started.


How many Popes are in Hell ? 0, it doesn't exist :nopity:

[Heddi]

15. kick

//

[damnraddem]

16. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition ...

to release credible data.

[Judi Lynn]

26. Spotty record keeping!

[missile_bender]

17. Is the Vatican going to give back all the money they stole

from the Muslims and Jews over the years? Just asking.

[LittleApple81]

21. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! They have also stolen from Catholics,

and plenty. Most Churches are equal opportunity thieves.

[struggle4progress]

18. If Dubya is re-elected, we'll all get a first hand look at the Inquisition

[True_Blue]

19. Wasn't it just last week

the Pope was repulsed and horrified by the torture of the Al Ghraib prisoners?

I guess if it's your guys doing the torturing it's okay.:eyes:

[LeighAnn]

22. You can bet there was a Bush ancestor involved.

That's the real reason for the Bush visit to the Vatican ... they had to run the centuries-old documents through the shredder a-la Ollie North, Dick Cheney, etc before the release of this whitewash investigation (dress rehearsal for the 9-11 commission report).

[komplex]

23. It was the Catholics who built the Democratic Party...

Don't forget that, we were pulling for Smith while the rest of you people gave us Hoover.

[annak110]

34. Al Smith was a part of, some say leader of, The American Liberty

League, a Catholic group made up of corporate "leaders" who conspired to make a fascist puppet of FDR according the word of Major General Smedley Darlington Butler (The Plot to Steal the White House by Jules Archer). Butler, a Quaker, had come to believe that military interventions were being used as a cloak for corporate greed. This was in the '30's when fascism (corporatism) was taking over in many European countries. The propaganda put out by the "Liberty League" held that Roosevelt was a fascist, you know, rightwing propaganda then was just like it is now with the usual twists and turns taken by fascist propagandists. The fascists/corporatists have carried their hatred of FDR and the social programs he promoted until this very day.

The following link is to a list of "Big Donors to the Pro-Nazi Groups" admittedly it is not complete but a caviat is added: "This table is provided to illustrate the simple fact that it was those from corporate America that sponsored the many pro-Nazi groups during the 1930s. Its also provided in hopes of aiding future researchers into fascism within the United States.To add some perspective to the dollar amounts given below; the Republican party spent roughly $15 million dollars on the presidential election of 1940."

The American Liberty League and members of same are mentioned a number of times in the list.

<http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/1930sap.htm>

The following is another interesting link to a description of this history:

<http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/20th/1930s/depression-responses4.html>

[TacticalPeek]

24. And now . . .

www.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/PEOPLE/bolder/montypython/larch1.html

[Matilda]

25. A nice little whitewash.

The Pope fails to mention that those who were not burned were
sentenced to life imprisonment. And given the prison of the time,
I don't imagine they survived too long. Also, the estates of the
accused were put under state control (not church) as soon as they
were arrested, so I don't think the state would be eager to see
too many people found innocent.

In Spain, it was also very race-based, mainly targeting Jews and
Muslims - especially Jews, since they were generally wealthy.

The point the Church fails to understand is that even one person
executed because his beliefs differed would have been one too many.
And where does it say in the gospels that Christ ordered the deaths
of anyone who didn't believe in him? So where do they get off doing
this in his name?

[saigon68]

27. More people have died "from" religion, and religious wars

Than from wars of simple greed

[Matilda]

29. Ain't it the truth!

n/t

[komplex]

31. As long as you ignore

Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Rwanda, the Rest of Africa,

[Matilda]

32. In other words, people will always find a reason to pick a fight

with someone different.

Religion/ethnicity together would account for a heck of a lot of
dead people.

[komplex]

33. But we'd

Find something else to fight about, Humans know how to innovate.

[annak110]

35. This morningI called the Inverness Hotel in Denver where the

Bishops are meeting and suggested that not only should those politicians be tried for treason who follow the dictates of the Pope, a political figure who runs another country, so also should the Bishops themselves be tried for treason. They have plotted against the U.S Constitution and people's rights long enough!

Here is the telephone number: 303-799-5800