Ultimate insult for American programmers as employers seek cheaper labor

[Nambe]

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP)

Scott Kirwin clung to his job at a large investment bank through several rounds of layoffs last year. Friends marveled at the computer programmer's ability to dodge pink slips during the worst technology downturn in a decade. --

Their plight can be seen as an unintended consequence of the nation's non-immigrant visa program - particularly the L-1 classification. The L-1 allows companies to transfer workers from overseas offices to the United States for up to seven years - ostensibly to familiarize them with corporate culture or to import workers with "specialized knowledge."

It also lets companies continue paying workers their home country wage. Indian workers receive roughly one-sixth the hourly wage of the average American programmer, who makes about $60 per hour in wages and benefits. --

But unemployed tech workers contend that so many good jobs are going to places like Bombay, Bangalore and Beijing that honing their technical skills is futile. According to the research firm Gartner Inc., one out of 10 technology jobs in the United States will move overseas by the end of next year. ---

[Best_man23]

1. Dumbya said that the reason jobs are going overseas

Is because we do not have the technical training.

My response: BUSHIT!

[aquart]

2. Bush "said?" Bush LIED.

Every word, every time.

[DBoon]

10. The only training we need

Is to vote him and his cronies out of office

[progressivebydesign]

12. No technical training?

Geez. He cuts the budgets so schools have nothing.. then he has the audacity to blame the lack of technical training? I think Bush has been standing to close to that gold-plated barbeque.

[TrogL]

3. Just wait for the backlash

I do tech support for a GPL software package. You would not BELIEVE the idiotic questions we have begun getting from .in email addresses.

If businesses are trusting these people with their software, they're in trouble.

[Skittles]

9. my Tombo can't get them to

stop answering the office phone HELLOOOOO?

[duid12]

17. backlash

>>If businesses are trusting these people with their software, they're in trouble.

I think you trivialize the problem...the problem won't be solved by assuming that indians (and chinese and ukraines etc) are stupid and do poor work and ultimately the jobs will come rushing back for the good old american quality...fact of the matter (as I see it) MOST software projects are full of bugs, short on features and go WAY overbudget and over deadline...almost every project I have witnessed was plagued with problems...REGARDLESS if indians or americans are doing the work.

If some Indian firms are more prone to errors than others, than the better indian firms will get the work; but I doubt very much that you can't paint all Indian S.D. firms as substandard. I have dealt with some in china and India and Pakistan, and the quality on average, is about the same as here in the US. BUT, they do it for about 1/10 the cost...at those kind of savings you can afford to miss the schedule and the budget and even afford some re-work and still come out WAY ahead...

Something needs to be done about the flight of IT and other jobs overseas, but simply standing on the sidelines waiting for those offshort firms to fail won't be the answer.

[Frederic Bastiat]

18. I concur

I have dealt with some in china and India and Pakistan, and the quality on average, is about the same as here in the US. BUT, they do it for about 1/10 the cost...at those kind of savings you can afford to miss the schedule and the budget and even afford some re-work and still come out WAY ahead...

[unfrigginreal]

4. This is such bullshit...and a HUGE issue for 2004!

I don't know why we haven't heard any of our candidates addressing outsourcing of jobs. This is a big deal, and folks are plenty pissed about it.

To add to the story that you posted, I've been made aware of MANY IT professionals that had to train the foreign employees on how to do the job, only to be laid off afterwards.

This just plain sucks and I hope that the Democratic candidates pick up on this theme.

[Pallas180]

24. You mised the Dem candidates speaking to the unions in Philadelphia

tonight. check Cspan. This is exactly what they addressed.

Kerrry is still for Nafta and AND WTO.

Dean would demand that if company outsources, unions would
be allowed to go to that country and organize them to same
payscale as US.

[whathappened]

27. how about

no pund intented to these people , but what about trying to understand what they are trying to say to you over the phones , dam i'm hard of hearing and i seem to alway get someone who i can't undersatnd a word they are saying to me , this is just not limited to the it buiness , it is most calls you get from companys these days , i have to take my wife to the doc with me so i can have her translate to me what he is saying lol , why don't we just pull some of our home less off the streets and give them the training they need and quit this b.s. and use our people to to work the phones and to hell with all this trying to save a dime shit in this country , i'm dam tried of this crap we are going thru in this country , everybody trying to save a dime and hurting our work force well they are doing it

[young_at_heart]

5. Bush and Co. 's motto...... 'Cheap Labor'

When will America wake up to the blatant prosperity of CEO's and the downward spiral of the 97% majority?

[mix68]

6. a white collar

techie labor organizer !

that's interesting news !

[inthecorneroverhere]

7. Must be addressed!

This is something that must be addressed by the Dem's!!

If Dem's don't address it, it is inevitable that a third-party candidacy by someone with a similar position to Patrick Buchanan will bring the issue to the forefront (as if it isn't front and center already, in the living rooms of those who have a college degree!).

[RamboLiberal]

11. I agree - this taps in to what should be the Dems base

the American worker. We have a good base of blue collar, now we need the white collar - many of them left the party and chortled at the unions - but now they are in the same boat.

From the article:
Emmons, who quit the Siemens job after being told his position would be terminated, is now lobbying politicians to abolish the L-1. He's also considering a career in politics - running on an "American Workers First" campaign.

"I'm not saying offshoring can be stopped, but it does not have to be like this," he said.

[priller]

8. This *may* be a short-term phenomenon

If it turns out to be a big cluster-f*** in terms of customer service and quality and bugs and that kind of thing. That's assuming, of course, the company actually cares about that.

In my area of programming expertise, we had a publisher who we work with a lot contract one job to a group in the Ukraine. Probably paid them in vodka and Levi's or something. But they botched it up so badly the publisher vowed never to use them again, no matter how cheap they were. OTOH, some of these jobs are now going to a few Canadian firms, and they seem to be doing an okay job for slightly cheaper rates. Errgh!

[Frederic Bastiat]

19. Those seem to be isolated cases

In my area of programming expertise, we had a publisher who we work with a lot contract one job to a group in the Ukraine. Probably paid them in vodka and Levi's or something. But they botched it up so badly the publisher vowed never to use them again, no matter how cheap they were.

Like someone else mentioned upthread, all IT projects are prone to problems and mishaps. A lot of Indian/Chinese/Russian programmers are highly qualified and educated in America but choose to leave soon after they graduate, they head home and start a business at a fraction of the cost it would take in America.

Fact remains that if someone else can do the same job at 1/10th of the cost only government protectionism will save IT jobs.

[ramapo]

20. Qualification not the issue

Most Indians here on H1B visas are very qualified. They have excellent education plus experience. But H1B was going to be a temporary program while the tech worker shortage was addressed during the '90s.

Now there is the L1 visa which is even worse and to add insult to injury, the rush to send jobs offshore.

These are the fruits of globalization we heard so much about during the Clinton years. The move offshore benefits the corporate bottom line. This will continue as long as the corporations control the political process. It will take a lot of angry voters to take it back.

[RTC]

29. Turning tide

Three years ago there was an influx of mostly contract tech staff from India. Highly qualified persons, many posessing degrees from American Universities.

Now, we are experiencing a job drain as high paying tech jobs are being migrated to places such as Bangalore. Now that the job market is improving and employees are beginning to jump ship, newly empty positions are not being replaced locally.

[Bozita]

13. Middle class jobs heading overseas -- not just programmers' jobs

http://www.detnews.com/2003/technology/0308/10/a01-240341.htm

-snip-

Low-level jobs in technology and other white-collar pursuits began following those in manufacturing overseas. And now, for the first time, they're being joined by higher-paying professional positions.

"It's pretty bleak," said Jennifer Maloney, 31, of Royal Oak, a tech worker who lost her job two months ago. "I have put out countless resumes and there's been no response at all. It's been really slim pickings."

Work once performed by accountants, architects and computer chip designers is being transferred to professionals half a world away, businesses and workers said.

The exodus of high-tech jobs is tied to globalization. As once-closed markets have opened up, competition has increased. So companies are seeking low-cost, low-wage locations to stay ahead of rivals.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

more...

-snip-

[Dan]

14. The answer to your question is simple:

Crime
and
Politics

[brokensymmetry]

16. Exactly.

The service sector was supposed to be the next wave, the place where the jobs would be. Now those jobs are going offshore in mass - from the high (programmers, accountants, Wall Street analysts) to the low (data entry, customer service, help desks).

I wonder just who is going to pay the taxes that will service our burgeoning national debt? More and more, I think 2004 is a pivotal year for our nation.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

21. The Irony is...

that many of these Middle Class workers are Repugs because they think that they are "RICH". A neighbor of mine who is a BIG time, SUV driving, Conservative Moralistic, REPUBLICAN lost his job last month. I guess they are now feeling the pinch that hit the Blue Collars many years ago and now know how it feels!

[newyawker99]

22. Bozita

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from the
news source.


Thank you.


NYer99
DU Moderator

[Bozita]

28. My apologies.

[moondust]

15. ...as shareholders seek cheaper management.

Why hire U.S. corporate officers when you can get them in India for a fraction of the cost?

[bodhisattava]

23. You may think you are being facetious

but believe me this is also going to happen.I know that Harvard B-School has established a program in India's prestigious Indian Institute of Management.It will be only a matter of time before one of their graduates becomes the CEO of a corporation with offices in Bombay or Bangalore.

[moondust]

26. The sooner the better.

I tend to think the wholesale shipment of U.S. jobs overseas (not just India, of course) will continue until the corporate chiefs themselves are threatened by it and scared into doing something to stop it. As long as they are not in the same boat as the workers on the shop floor and in the cubicles they can drift away on their yachts without feeling any pain.

[fabius]

31. Export Kenny Boy, Bernie and the whole rotten gang.

Just make sure we pass a law so that they can't buy American politicians any more.

[goforit]

25. Bush and US Corporations are Unpatriotic.......ditching AMERICA!!!

This has got to be the worst thing ever done.

[fabius]

30. TREASON.

We could write a book about it. Our book would make a lot more sense than the one written by the Evil Nazi Bitch.

[Democat]

32. Does anyone have a solution for this problem?

What is the solution? I don't see one.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. Any corporation that fires an American to hire third world labor

gets their charter revoked, that day. Their shareholder lose the benefits of doing business in America, and they now are liable for the debt of the corporation.

That would stop the job losses in one day.